And the fact that Hillary is trumpeting this makes me wary of a Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton redux. Follow the money.

Please, someone else.

/But not most of the farks that are running, though.
//Who knows.
///Everything sucks and it's all about the money.

libbynomore2: These leftists will hate the provider of energy no matter who it is or where it comes from so why spend billions and destroy live trying to change it??


libby no more ?

nah. you were never a libby. stop pretending. It isn't increasing your credibility. It just makes you more of a liar.

richb313: Just remeber ethanol and all bio-type fuels are at thier core:

FOOD FOR FUEL

That has never and will never make sense.

Algae in biogenerators used to capture CO2 is food? You learn something new everyday on Fark...

D_Moran: "[However] most kerbside recycling programmes are not financially self-sustaining. The cost of collecting, transporting and sorting materials generally exceeds the revenues generated by selling the recyclables, and is also greater than the disposal costs."


The main purpose of curbside recycling is to reduce landfill use, and that is why municipalities are willing to sink some costs into it, because overall it saves them money. Garbage disposal costs have doubled in the last decade, and are showing no signs of slowing down.

It is also part of why many municipalities are pushing for more green refuse to go to compost.

my suv doesn't run on corn!!!!!

scott-ty: Oregon stats, ethanol 30 cents cheaper than regular gas. But you lose 30+ percent of your mileage. Kinda sucks to say nothing of the increase of milk cheese and so many other farm product that are using the shortage of corn to jack things up. Want to save gas... deport 12 plus million illegals that burn their share..oh well, nuff said.

Thats not completely true. I lose about 20% mileage on E85

cellulosic biofuel is not a panacea either. Intensive harvesting of cellulose leads to soil degradation. We currently till that waste cellulose back into the soil to keep it's carbon and nitrogen and mineral level high enough to support our relatively intensive agricultural practices. In addition, this plant debris tilling allows the soil to retain water. Once you strip all the plant waste off a field for a few years the rain and irrigation water drops right through into the deep groundwater. Current annual crops don't have roots deep enough to reach the deep nutrients and water.


Brazil is learning this.

Brazil can stave this problem off much longer because they, unlike North America, get prodigious amounts of rainfall.

North America gets way too little rain to make a cellulose-based ethanol system viable.

dbaggins

I completely agree.

James Woolsey: "American farmers, by making the commitment to grow more corn for ethanol, are at the top of the spear on the war against terrorism."

Jesus H mother farking christ! Can someone euthanize this douchenozzle before he infects more innocent people.

This is a political issue people! It has nothing to do with self sufficiency. This is about brainwashing the masses to think that because politician x supports ethanol we can starve the sheiks soon. Wrong. The US gets as much oil from South America as the Middle East.

This is a timely political fad composed of 100% pure bullshiat.

Now, if they would stop tainting the ethanol with gasoline I'd welcome it.

Pure grain alcohol for $3.50 a gallon! Now that's a cheap drunk.

HeliumAddict: This is a political issue people! It has nothing to do with self sufficiency. This is about brainwashing the masses to think that because politician x supports ethanol we can starve the sheiks soon. Wrong. The US gets as much oil from South America as the Middle East.


In particular, ethanol is spearheading our fight against Canadian terrorism! (where the US gets MOST of it's oil)

but wait! we're already going to need to import our *ethanol* from Canada soon! oops! we've played right into the hands of those crafty northerners again!


americans are too stupid to deserve energy independence.

When my baby washes my brain real hard, it makes my ears turn red.

Then M. Moore brings in the ointment.

Bow chicka bow wow!

I didn't know Rolling Stone had articles anymore.

The Mitsubishi Magnesium Injection Cycle Engine > ethanol

The exxon propaganda machine is working out just as planned.

I'm just going to look at this like my government does:
"I've got mine. I'm gonna be dead in 50 years anyway, why should I care?"

BearToy: I convinced.
We should do absolutely nothing until the last drop of oil is used. THEN and only then should we start working on alternative sources of energy that may initially be inefficient.

You're an idiot. So are all you other ethanol cronies. Are you jackasses going to change the laws of physics to get past this "initial inefficiency"?

http://www.stolaf.edu/courses/2003sem2/Chemistry/111/EtOH_Oct.htm

I'm going to go stock up on tortilla chips before you morons make them a rare delicacy. Farkin turdburgling assclowns.

Spins 4...

Just going by the published stats of the Oregonian and Portland will require 15% ethanol mixed with all gas before long, (can't remember the date) but it has been passed. Ethanol is still a lose/lose fuel... nuff said.

A wouldn't worry about food commodities, guys. A researcher at Rice University recently created a strain of E. Coli that turns waste glycerol into ethanol. It's going to drive the price of ethanol into hell.

Amazing that there are people here that actually think corn ethanol is a sham. Yeah, that's why the infrastructure is being built and every spare piece of farmland is growing corn.

Its cheaper and cleaner than gasoline and has been 10 percent of gasoline in Canada for years. Car companies have been building E85 engines for years as well.

I guess they didn't check with the Einsteins here first. Morans.

With genetic farming, it is just a matter of time before we develop an organic material solely for its ability to produce ethanol. You think corn produces ethanol now? Wait a few years and see what will be growing and producing energy. Just like they can breed 60 pound turkeys, they will be growing some amazing "freaky corn".

scott-ty: Spins 4...

Just going by the published stats of the Oregonian and Portland will require 15% ethanol mixed with all gas before long, (can't remember the date) but it has been passed. Ethanol is still a lose/lose fuel... nuff said.

It's not a lose/lose fuel. There is plenty of economical/environmental/political controversy, but as a fuel it is great. It's probably a waste to run in most cars on the road and might not be an answer to substantially reducing oil consumption, but just judging it as a fuel it is fantastic stuff.

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Mohammad on a f*cking moped, is EVERYTHING bad for the earth?

It depends on if you can make money off of it.

Ethanol production could DOUBLE and not affect most of the nonsense that are seeing an "increase" due to some sort of otherworldly ethanol surge being rallied against by a dozen different industries.

Oh, but for ethanol production to double without any of these effects, we have to stop making and using high fructose corn syrup in every single farking food product in modern history.

Really, it's a win-win...

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: Want off the oil tit?


sure, one in every town....then we can run out of uranium in ten years.


yes. If we switched to all nuclear the planet has about a ten year supply of accessible uranium ore.


The US is also almost completely dependent on foreign sources of that as well.

great plan.

What is it about " SOLAR ENERGY IS NOT NOT NOT PRACTICAL OR AFORDABLE " do you not understand?????

People have been trying for 50 years to make it work and yet it isn't now, nor has it EVER BEEN an efficient form of energy.


That's baloney. Solar energy has never received even the tiniest negligible amount of federal funding in research and subsidies when compared to the countless billions that have been poured into oil, gas, nuclear, and ethanol. Renewable energy is definitely feasible. It's only a matter of priorities and redirecting existing subsidies.

Why not use prisoners for power?

We have like, what, 10% of the US male population locked up... they work out like crazy, so hook up weights and treadmills to power generators. I seriously bet that would work. It wouldn't even be unethical since it would be completely voluntary, and wouldn't make them use more energy than they used working out; those who don't work out don't have to do anything.
Seriously, why not? I can't think of anything unethical once you get past the point where this sounds unethical by default. I suppose someone could be opposed to supplying "free labor" or working for the man, but in the former case there could be compensation (plus prisoners already do free labor things like litter pick-up) and in the latter, again you can opt-out if you want (but then you don't get to exercise).

Consider this seriously? Is it as crazy as it seems?

dbaggins: Smirky the Wonder Chimp: Want off the oil tit?


sure, one in every town....then we can run out of uranium in ten years.


yes. If we switched to all nuclear the planet has about a ten year supply of accessible uranium ore.


The US is also almost completely dependent on foreign sources of that as well.

great plan.

We don't know of 90% or more of uranium ore sources because we haven't been looking for them, not nearly as actively as we've looked for oil. Believe me, there's plenty. Plus, breeder reactors, and etc. (though I know there's varied opinion about how well those work if at all)...

mcostas: That's baloney. Solar energy has never received even the tiniest negligible amount of federal funding in research and subsidies when compared to the countless billions that have been poured into oil, gas, nuclear, and ethanol. Renewable energy is definitely feasible. It's only a matter of priorities and redirecting existing subsidies.


actually, the DOE has been funding some decent research into solar cell technology in the last five years...and surprise! There are prototypes being licensed now that are 5 TIMES more efficient than the market average. Imagine that. Support energy alternative research, and get results.


and this was by a DOE directorate that got shiat for doing this from Congress for a number of years...and only recently started getting praise. Did something happen in Washington recently ? hmmmmmm.

mcostas: What is it about " SOLAR ENERGY IS NOT NOT NOT PRACTICAL OR AFORDABLE " do you not understand?????

People have been trying for 50 years to make it work and yet it isn't now, nor has it EVER BEEN an efficient form of energy.


That's baloney. Solar energy has never received even the tiniest negligible amount of federal funding in research and subsidies when compared to the countless billions that have been poured into oil, gas, nuclear, and ethanol. Renewable energy is definitely feasible. It's only a matter of priorities and redirecting existing subsidies.

Unfortunately the yelling buffoon is somewhat correct. There is no payback for current solar technology. In other words, using solar energy will cost more than getting electricity off the grid, even in places where electricity is quite expensive, for the life of the solar panels.

But this is changing. Like you said, it's a matter of priorities, and solar panel prices are dropping precipitously due to increased demand, monetary investment and technological advances (mostly by those crazy Germans).

I like the use of nuclear power. We will always be dependent on 'foreign' sources no matter what fuels we use. Get used to that. Thats life.

I think its very true that with increased use, there will be increased technology put into play in mining Uranium.

Al Gore will probably open a mine on his farm.... its as common on earth as zinc.

/TMI rules

always 11h17m: We don't know of 90% or more of uranium ore sources because we haven't been looking for them, not nearly as actively as we've looked for oil. Believe me, there's plenty. Plus, breeder reactors, and etc. (though I know there's varied opinion about how well those work if at all).


The pictures he showed are for a pebble-bed reactor, which is, by definition, a slow neutron reactor.


I agree that IF we choose nuclear, then we need to invest in a real fast neutron reactor design, and not business-as-usual slow neutron reactors ("breeders" as the paranoid hippies call them). 98% energy yield is far different from 5% energy yield.


as to the possible vast possible reserves, it's not likely. uranium is normally pretty evenly distributed throughout the earths crust, by virtue of it's ratio of melting point and density and how magma works. the few concentrations we have found more likely to be exceptions, not the norm. "10 years" is assuming a vigorous prospecting and mining program, with rather favorable assumptions.

dbaggins: neutron reactors ("breeders" as the paranoid hippies call them).

Yes, because Nixon himself (pops) and the DOE must be full of 'paranoid hippies' since they call it a breeder reactor.

retard.

dbaggins-cellulosic biofuel is not a panacea either. Intensive harvesting of cellulose leads to soil degradation. We currently till that waste cellulose back into the soil to keep it's carbon and nitrogen and mineral level high enough to support our relatively intensive agricultural practices. In addition, this plant debris tilling allows the soil to retain water. Once you strip all the plant waste off a field for a few years the rain and irrigation water drops right through into the deep groundwater. Current annual crops don't have roots deep enough to reach the deep nutrients and water.

Yes, but there are plenty of sources of cellulose that are being removed from the soil TODAY. Some people have those lawnmovers that return the grass to the ground, but most people put the lawn clippings in bags to take to the landfill. same thing with leaves, in those parts of the country where deciduous trees are common. Not to mention waste paper, corn husks, banana peels, etc. There are probably bacteria that can ferment all those sources. When they've done their work, distill off the ethanol, and convert the remaining solids to good fertilizer. There are engineering obstacles to overcome, but it can happen. It's better than landfilling that stuff.

Ever notice that whenever ANY alternative fuel source is mentioned, nutjobs start crawling out of the woodwork to tell us why said fuel is "worse than oil"? Hell, Exxon doesn't even HAVE to launch smear campaigns against alternative fuels: there's a million pinheads right here on the Internet that are more than willing to do it for them.

I just hope we learn our farking lession and don't become dependant on any one energy source.

The key will be to keep government regulations and mandates out of the picture and let the free market do what it does best; offer a variarity of competing energy sources.

MrSteve007: Yes, because Nixon himself (pops) and the DOE must be full of 'paranoid hippies' since they call it a breeder reactor.


I'm not a retard. You already know it, you just can't admit it.


you can have a fast neutron reactor that is not a "breeder" of the awful plutonium boogy-man.


things have changed, keep up, or remain stuck in the 60's.

Excuse me, but after this thread that basically details how we're doing everything farkass backwards, I need some ethanol myself.

C'mere, beer...

LMark: Yes, but there are plenty of sources of cellulose that are being removed from the soil TODAY. Some people have those lawnmovers that return the grass to the ground, but most people put the lawn clippings in bags to take to the landfill. same thing with leaves, in those parts of the country where deciduous trees are common. Not to mention waste paper, corn husks, banana peels, etc. There are probably bacteria that can ferment all those sources. When they've done their work, distill off the ethanol, and convert the remaining solids to good fertilizer. There are engineering obstacles to overcome, but it can happen. It's better than landfilling that stuff.

sure, but it is a matter of scale. the biomass entering our landfills is like pee in the wind compared to industrial scale agriharvesting of cellulose. Domestic biomass can already be wisely used in municipal scale compost for use in repairing our declining soil quality.

every little wee miniscule bit would help, of course.

hmmm, thorium oxide. but it would still be a slow neutron reactor, so you still have high level, long life nuclear waste to contend with.


maybe combine fast neutron advanced liquid metal reactors with a uranium/thorium feedstock.....

can we get an obvious tag?

ibsurfin1fineday: We should all just canoe to work. I do not know why I didn't think of this before!

If global warming continues and the polar ice caps keep melting, we might all have to.

Dogb: Legalize Pot.

50% less driving in the US.

You can't use energy if you can't get off the couch.

Yeah, but then everyone gets the munchies. And there won't be any corn flour tortillas to go around.

always 11h17m:
Why not use prisoners for power?

LMFAO!!!! That is the funniest and most awesome idea!!! Props 2 u!!

But it looks like we're pretty much screwed until we have solar and wind powered cars. And to all of you bashing recycling for being expensive and wasting energy, we don't have an unlimited supply of resources. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but there are no Tin Trees or Plastic Plants growing anywhere on Earth. We may just end up growing more corn just to make vegetable oil for some kind of future plastics.

/Couldn't we just eat the kernels and turn the husks into fuel?
//Just sayin'.
///Maybe.
////And how come I haven't seen the "I has a corm" mouse yet?
///Too lazy to post it myself.
//has no html skillz
///slashies

Timster: graphite fires have been at the bottom of the worstnooclear disasters.

DURR. You're conflating chernobyl with helium cooled pebble bed reactors? SHAME ON YOU AND ALL YOUR CHILDRENS.

Good Gods Man, that graphite reactor in Chernobyl is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from pebble bed reactors.

Just because some IDIOT decided to perform an unauthorized experiment on the reactor in Chernobyl does NOT make any difference to the inherent safety of a pebble bed reactor. Yes, they have a graphite covering on the "pebbles". they ALSO have a ceramic body the uranium is embedded in.

Once again.

DUH.

/on duty for the WC-130 that came back from measuring radioactivity from Chernobyl
//wasn't the guy in the banana suit with the raidiometer checking it after it landed at RAF Mildenhall
///was standing by anyway...to type up the reports

libbynomore2:

All right this is what I KNOW.

I KNOW you don't need to tell me to "keep my mouth shut". Extremely rude on your part. You may apologize anytime. I'll wait.

I KNOW its very hard to hurt big oil. Look at the record earnings. Look at the two big oil men in the White House.

I KNOW I already hate big farmers. ADM bought Nathan's Famous Hotdogs and now puts textured vegetable protein in them. Bastards.

And I KNOW something else. The ends don't justify the means.

Oops. I was too emotionally involved in that hot dog thingy.

ConAgra bought Hebrew National. Close.

I haven't purchased gas except for ride-shares in two years.