I remember one time I was talking to some of my ROTC buddies about how to get medically discharged or at least disqualified from having to deploy so they wouldn't risk getting killed; but wouldn't have to pay back their ROTC scholarships and this chickenhawk overheard me and started calling them and myself traitors and cowards etc.

I swear to you, the next day, he flagged me down in private and was asking to know the same stuff I told them in case there was ever a draft. Naturally, I told him to dq himself by shooting himself in the head.

klisejo: JoeBagadonutz: Americans are probably safer in Iraq than they are in urban Philly.

Ok, your retarded.

Google is your friend. Pilly has the highest murder rate of any major US city. Add to that accidental deaths and my statement is undeniably true. Sorry but you are confusing a minor flareup and police action with a real war. I'd rather be an MP in Bhagdad than a street cop in Philly. Look it up. The stats, sadly, are there. This is not to denigrate in any way the service of our brave military. I'm just trying to put things in some perspective. By thr way, it's you're.

GWLush

Cock recon. Can't believe I went an entire enlistment without hearing that one, and now it's too late to use it:(

Luftwaffles

Dude, I'm not going to go so far as to refer to it as traitorous, but isn't that kind of stuff a little, well, morally ambiguous? I mean, if your friends aren't getting deployed, someone's going to have to fill their slot. Don't get me wrong, if they're the kind of officers that'll let someone else catch a potentially dangerous deployment in their stead, then I definitely wouldn't want them watching my six when SHTF. Still...

Plug_Nickel: Luftwaffles

Dude, I'm not going to go so far as to refer to it as traitorous, but isn't that kind of stuff a little, well, morally ambiguous? I mean, if your friends aren't getting deployed, someone's going to have to fill their slot. Don't get me wrong, if they're the kind of officers that'll let someone else catch a potentially dangerous deployment in their stead, then I definitely wouldn't want them watching my six when SHTF. Still...

They are my friends and they knew I was in med school as they asked me some questions and asked for some advice so I gave it to them. What they do with the info is their business.

Since we're going that route:

Bush spent a lot of time in pilot training during Vietnam. He was also part of a ANG unit (Stop calling it the friggin National Guard, it's the AIR National Guard) that did not deploy to Vietnam. It was also host to the sons of other prominent Texans.

He did his training, got qualified on the F-102 and then towards the end of his term he went non-current and stopped showing for drills.

It was bound to be made a big deal because he ran against a Naval officer who served in Vietnam and was awarded 2 purple hearts.

But that shiat's over with so who really cares? Politicians regularly do not serve anymore. It's no longer a requirement. The American people have spoken. They don't care if you serve anymore. It's no longer a measuring stick in regards to a politician's character. Sure it's nice to put on your resume, but it didn't help Wesley Clark any, and it came to mean nothing in that endless farking debate between Kerry and Bush about their service records.

Military service has been branded in this country as something you do for college money and work until you figure out what you want to do with yourself. I'm sure a lot of other guys will jump on me and say, "You're in the Air Force! How can you say that? It's about protecting our FREEDOM!" but we can all stop being trite, I think. If the BAH, BAS, MGIB, TA and other benefits (military guys will know those acronyms) weren't there, we probably wouldn't join.

I have zero regrets about joining. I have many things I'd like to change about the military. Them's the breaks though. When my contract is up, I'm getting out. Simple as that. No grudges against the government, no grumbling about my recruiter. I made an adult choice and accepted whatever came, even if I had to have my moment to be angry about it first before I accepted it. Adapt and conquer. Hell, that's been the best lesson the military has taught me!

FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Cowboy Spencer: UnkleKrakker: All you're spanking is yourself, but don't let me interrupt

:) I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread but yourself knows better :)

Drive safely, see you in hell :)

Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports written in the 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein's scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away. (new window)

Mustard (new window)

C. Warheads for rockets
88. The discovery by UNMOVIC of twelve 122 mm chemical warheads and rocket
motors in mid-January 2003 at the Ukhaidar ammunitions depot led to an Iraqi
declaration regarding four additional warheads at Al Taji a few days later.

102. UNMOVIC pointed out to Iraq that the primary concern with regard to VX
was not simply the quantity unilaterally destroyed in 1991 but rather the retention of
precursors, know-how and the extent of the development of the programme in 1990.
Therefore, Iraq's sampling and quantification effort, even if successful, would not
address all of the unresolved issues identified by UNMOVIC.

I. Information on suppliers provided by Iraq
110. " declarations since 1998
supplied to UNMOVIC in October 2002, showed a trend of withholding pertinent
information."

111. "In its declaration of 7 December 2002, Iraq
declared that it had imported 131 such engines but failed to supply any information
about their origin (suppliers, exporting countries) until inspectors observed 231 such
engines at an Al Samoud production facility."

155 mm shells filled with mustard gas
119. The destruction of the chemical weapons agent mustard gas, which had started
at the end of February, was completed in March 2003. Under UNMOVIC
supervision, Iraq destroyed the 155 mm shells and the mustard gas contained in
them. (new window)

Try not to let all the reading make your tiny brain hurt

Luftwaffles

Fair enough.

GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Except his training was over after you are saying.

FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Except his training was over after you are saying.

He finished his training in 1970.

GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?

FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?


He was discharged in '73 he finished f-102 training in '70.

FlashLV: Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?


Yes, we understand that you've drunk enough Cool Aid to fill three swimming pools. Olympic size...

GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?


He was discharged in '73 he finished f-102 training in '70.


He stopped flying in '72 because his flight status was revoked for not taking his annual flight physical.

GWLush:
Please refrain from confusing the issue with facts, thank you...

Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.GWLush: GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: GWLush: FlashLV: Oznog: Bravely defended Texas and Alabama during Vietnam. Well, on paper anyways.

You have no idea what the national guard did during the Vietnam war do you?

He never said dick about the whole of the National Guard. You have no idea what Dubya did during the Vietnam War do you?

Then it shows he doesn't know wtf he was talking about and neither do you. He was in training then when training was done, no more pilots were going!

They stopped sending pilots 3 years before the conflict was over?

Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?


He was discharged in '73 he finished f-102 training in '70.


He stopped flying in '72 because his flight status was revoked for not taking his annual flight physical.

Heck of a lot more than that. He was never what you'd call "combat ready" that I can see. The gaps and irregularities in his records fill quite a few pages. There's enough evidence to show that soon he just stopped showing up, which should have put him first in line to go to Vietnam but he was a senator's son here. They still paid him.
Wikipedia: Bush's service record

His requests are worthy of Fark in themselves. He wanted to use his own doctor instead of the military's doctor to do the annual physical. This coincides with the military beginning to do drug testing with the physical. His resistance to simply showing up and being told to turn and cough is pretty much otherwise inexplicable. He was suspended from flight duty and never contested it or even signed an acknowledgement.

LOL @ people that think this is about protecting America.

America doesn't need protecting, the people in general don't need protecting.

Everybody else needs protection from US.

Even the lesser intelligent mid-west Christians still know how to shoot stuff and blow things up.

Whoever feels threatened and frightened by "Terrorists" (AKA Muslims that Europe failed to wipe out during the last 1200 years.) are the same people that depend on the police to protect them, the same people that depend on Wal-Mart, McDonalds and Budweiser. Good Luck with that.

NuttierThanEver: Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?


/blatantly stolen from Weaver in another thread but it works even better in this thread

I really think everyone should read that book, friggen incredible. A small discussion on why manditory service doesn't work.



"Uh sir, why not go-well, go the limit? Require everyone to serve and let everybody vote?"

"Young man, can you restore my eyesight?"

"Sir? Why, no, sir!"

"You would find it much easier than to instill moral virtue -- social responsibility -- into a person who doesn't have it, doesn't want it, and resents having the burden thrust on him. This is why we make it so hard to enroll, so easy to resign. Social responsibility above the level of family, or at most of tribe, requires imagination-devotion, loyalty, all the higher virtues-which a man must develop himself; if he has them forced down him, he will vomit the out. Conscript armies have been tried in the past. Look up in the library the psychiatric report on brainwashed prisoners in the so called 'Korean War', circa 1950...."

RE Article

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank god.

UnkleKrakker: GWLush:
Please refrain from confusing the issue with facts, thank you...


Sorry. Bush actually did secret recon mission in Vietnam. He personally knew John Rambo. Better?

I gave up reading the thread.

Anyway, I thought about it today on the way into work. The military and I wouldn't work out. I like to think for myself, I'm not going to go fight someone else's war, I'm not going to be willing to die for just any reason.

If a sufficient threat to my self and my home presented itself, I would fight to repel that threat.

Bush would have had a hard time flying anyway. The model plane he trained on was taken out of service. He was also too busy teaching Carlos Hathcock how to shoot.

GWLush: UnkleKrakker: GWLush:
Please refrain from confusing the issue with facts, thank you...


Sorry. Bush actually did secret recon mission in Vietnam. He personally knew John Rambo. Better?

Much better :)

/don't forget, Alabama in the summer is a lot like Vietnam too...

I love how people think the military can't pay for a "decent" college tuition. I used the military to pay for my Bachelor's degree and now I'm using the military to pay for my Master's degree. Both are going to be from private colleges.

For those who feel that the "war" in Iraq is useless, you are right, it is very useless. However, you need to just remember that a strong military has helped push us to be the best country in the world and sometimes it does take the lives of other Americans to help with that.

Oh and don't believe for a second that all of the over 3500 deaths in Iraq are related to combat. Those deaths include everything from combat, to vehicle accidents, to some poor Soldier having a heart attack in county.

ibwahooka: I love how people think the military can't pay for a "decent" college tuition. I used the military to pay for my Bachelor's degree and now I'm using the military to pay for my Master's degree. Both are going to be from private colleges.

For those who feel that the "war" in Iraq is useless, you are right, it is very useless. However, you need to just remember that a strong military has helped push us to be the best country in the world and sometimes it does take the lives of other Americans to help with that.

Oh and don't believe for a second that all of the over 3500 deaths in Iraq are related to combat. Those deaths include everything from combat, to vehicle accidents, to some poor Soldier having a heart attack in county.

Also lets not forget that the true causality list is more than 10x times the death toll. While they might not be dead, some are probably better off.

Bush finished his training in 1973, the same year we stopped sending new pilots.

Understand now?

Rather funny that you left in a "i'm not coming back" sissy girly huff when you were shown to be wrong....and now you're back being proven wrong again within a week!

Plus ca change......

This thread, and the pretentious, whining, mewling, parasitic anti-American libtard crap herein is why there should be conscription in the US. Don't like the military? Think that guns are mean and that all war is evil and unnecessary? Leave the farking country. Go munch granola somewhere in Scandinavia, hipster jackass.

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds

Actually, the Japanese had a very advanced nuclear weapons program. Most of it was based near the Chosen Resv. The Japanese military also attempted a coup to prevent the surrender AFTER the atomic bombs were dropped. The civilians were ready to fight to the death to prevent defeat. Both of your points are dead wrong. Learn you history before you spout off things and act like you know about them.

eastbaywatch: Leave the farking country.

Alternately, folks could work for change, as is their right.

Rakishi: chiefsfaninkc: Glad to see you have the ability to separate your hatred of the current administration and the long term future of the military. Your parents should be proud of the education they provide.

Yeah, god forbid people think for themselves or do something other than blindly follow those in power. I mean christ, remember those evil bastards who rebelled from that big empire a few centuries back, wouldn't want our kids to follow in their footsteps would we.

If people don't want their kids to join the military then they have every right to tell them so. It is the duty of an american to keep our government in line and for the government to understand there are consequences to some actions. If the administration and military wants to preserve itself or rather its current mission then it will have to fix its farkups. Maybe the next idiot in power won't be so quick to go to war.

Also this is a minor problem in the long term as military strength can easily be rebuilt especially when it doesn't need to be stretched to the breaking point for years on end.

You are very correct sir people should never think of the future their children might have because of Islamo Facist Farkheads they should instead just worry about themselves and let their children deal with it later.

Never said parents did not have a "Right" to express their feelings to their children. I did however say that the anti-military rhetoric (read anti-Bush) in this thread was short sided and idiotic.

short sided and idiotic.

Short sighted you mean?

As in does not look far into the future as opposed to has a short side (whatever significance having a short side would hold)

Sorry, just found it funny you were talking about looking into the future and you botched making fun of people "who don't look into the future" by telling them they have "short sides".

Had you said short penised tho...

Antimatter Quote 2007-07-30 02:45:29 PM

They've been using the army as a tool for political gain since Korea.

I hated how we got involved in vietnam, everything about that conflict reeks of interferism and picking a fight that wasn't ours.


I believe the French pulled out and stuck us with that war. Later LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident to escalate the war. Then changed the law so he could borrow money from Social Security to fund the war. Probably what caused all of Social Securities funding problems.

FlashLV: nemecizer:
Pussy.

How was I a pussy? It was 15 years ago.

Well, if I was to take a wild guess, I would say you were a pussy because you chickened out right before you would have left mom's home cooking.

Then I'd say you were a huge, gigantic farking pussy because you chickenhawked this war, unabashedly supporting it even though you lacked the personal courage and fortitude to leave your day to day life and join up. Let's do the math, shall we (dates of pussification are guestimates):

Chickened out of service to country - 2007-15 = 1992

Assuming you were 18 (You can go at 17 if your parents sign the waver, but I'm betting mom cried and yelled so dad wouldn't let you do that), lemme run this through calc.exe real quick:

That means, after 9/11, you were not only a vagina, but a vagina well within recruitable age (27 years oldish). If I recall right, 32 was the cut off at that time. Assuming you had to set some affairs in order, see to some bills and sock away some money for the hardship of basic+AIT, you could have planned, hit the gym, got your will in order and just a couple years later gone on to OIF, fit as a fiddle and ready to kill. At 29. Still within range.

Now it's 2007, which means you are about 33, which means you still fall within recruitable range. You might have noticed that they keep bumping that age up. You wouldn't even have to be combat arms! You could be a medic and help guys who are bleeding their hearts out in the sandbox. You could work on comm gear, like dascoop, watching DVDs. You could be a payroll clerk or a truck driver or an MLRS crewman, or any one of a number of things.

But, you're a pussy.

/19K20
//Got out. Didn't agree with Iraq.
///There's an armor unit in Nevada, just up the road.
////Miss it every single day I'm a civilian.

I think this is a sure sign of America's decaying moral values. We love our freedom, but no one is willing to fight for it. This freedom doesn't come free. It involves giving up a lot of your rights and your family. Freedom involves dying for what someone else believes in. It is having faith in your leadership to make the right decisions to keep you free.

stiletto_the_wise Quote 2007-07-30 01:30:59 PM
I love the USA, and I'd sign up for the military in a heartbeat if I thought I'd be actually be deployed in defense of my country, but I know instead I'd be used to:

1. Attack people who are no threat to the country.
2. Invade a smaller country with resources we need.
or
3. Defend US corporate interests abroad.

Ahhhhhhh the Clinton years. Haiti, Bosnia, Sudan.....

Of course you know that the theme tune that space aliens play when they're tuning in our planet is the theme music for, "The Three Stooges".

As American youth wise-up and realize the Army free college tuition plan may include a no-charge body bag, parents are being asked to talk to their children about joining-up

That's why you do the smart thing and Join the Air Force.


"You will perish in flame!"

Marc_Arsenal: That's why you do the smart thing and Join the Air Force.

Not exactly!

I'd tell you about my husband, but then I'd have to kill you.

This October will mark 20 years of service to the United States. My EAOS was 05 March 1999. I've been kept on as a "Defense Contractor".

I still have no DD-214, no discharge, no GI bill, no rights I earned as a veteran. I will recieve no retirement benefits at all. I have been robbed by the United States. I am not unique; I'm just a grunt.

When I say the United States is a criminal organization I'm not just talking about history or current events. We have been lied to about a great many things.

chiefsfaninkc,you're an idiot. What the hell does what we're doing in Iraq have to do with anyone defending this country?
Bin-dipwad attacked us,not Saddam...who ,i might add,WE and our allies helped into power. This "war" is about oil,not about defending america. This country hasn't been in need of defending since WW2. Everything we've done after, has been for MONEY,for our interests,NOTHING else. Try to grow a brain,in your next life.

Just to be the devil's advocate here...for all of you saying that support of the war/military intervention in Iraq and other places requires that people first have joined the service and that people who vocalize support for the policies of the government that you disagree with have to first sign up...

does that mean that...

You all regularly stand in front of military convoys, block ship departures, and interfere with military supplying factories and companies? Because if you advocate people have to fully be involved to support the war, by proxy you are stating that in opposition you should really be fully involved also. It seems you are saying that people cannot have an opinion that differs from yours without meeting a certain expectation yet you can have your opinion without actually meeting similar requirements. Sounds fishy to me. Besides would you want all the right-wingers armed and trained and all the lefties flaccid armed with carrot sticks and puppets floats? Now I certainly understand the "chicken-hawk" label applies to some but as with most labels it seems over-used along with Liberal, rightwinger, leftist, commie, socialist, etc.


------

Of course, if everyone who supported the war or military action in general joined up and the opposite didnt would that also not mean that we would have a military further isolated and distant from the general population leading to a potential risk of a military disassociation from the "people" and thereby risk eventual control? Just hypothesizing.

FlashLV: Space_Poet: In fact I find these Chickenhawk Brigade records very telling as well...

* George Will, did not serve
* Chris Matthews, Mediawhore, did not serve. (However, apparently served in the Peace Corps.)
* Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
* Paul Gigot, did not serve.
* Bill Bennett, Did not serve
* Pat Buchanan, did not serve
* Rush Limbaugh, did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst' [see "The Rush Limbaugh Story" by Paul D. Colford, St. Martin's Press, 1993, Chapter 2: Beating the Draft.])
* Michael Savage (aka Michael Alan Weiner) - did not serve, too busy chasing herbs and botany degrees in Hawaii and Fiji
* John Wayne, did not serve
* Pat Robertson - claimed during 1986 campaign to be a "combat veteran." In reality, was a "Liquor Officer."
* Bill Kristol, did not serve
* Sean Hannity, did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr, did not serve
* Antonin Scalia, did not serve
* Clarence Thomas, did not serve
* Ralph Reed, did not serve
* Michael Medved, did not serve
* Charlie Daniels, did not serve
* Ted Nugent, did not serve
* Country Singer Toby Keith, did not serve. (1)
* Radio Host Phil Hendrie, did not serve.

Hillary Clinton did not serve
Bill clinton did not serve
Nancy Pelosi did not serve
Barrack Obama did not serve

WTF is the point?

The last time I looked these people did not approve of blood for oil.


THAT'S THE POINT!

Grrr hyperbole...can you give me one quote where these people supported "blood for oil" for that reason. Just because you don't agree with the war for the reason(s) you think drive it, doesnt mean that others support the war for the reason(s) you interpret. Its entirely possible these people support the war for reasons you do not fathom, reasons that are even dumber than "blood for oil" and reasons far more intellectually sound...wrapping up such complex things in generalized slogans is best left to the politicians so we can laugh at said slogans and not by the emotional trupeteers on both sides of the spectrum.

"