Cowboy Spencer: UnkleKrakker: No, you didn't actually, they were manufactured in Iran using chemicals supplied by France, Poland and Germany

Better luck next time, US chem weapons are manufactured and stored in Tennessee and Johnson Island

You kind of missed the main point of my post. The "Rochester NY" thing was from an old essay by an Iraqi student who had done some research which supported the idea.

The real point is that Saddam Hussein didn't have an active and functional WMD program in 2001. Lots of people were saying so before the invasion.

Prior to the most recent invasion, 1 tanker shipload of ricin was turned back from Iraq and sent back to their home port, in France. Coincidence I guess

spleef420: Whoopty Whoo The Precious Bongo Boy: Military = Money Making Machine for the Government.

wow you're dense.

This war is costing US taxpayers about $10-15 million a day. The military isn't a money making machine, it's a moneypit.

As a function of GDP, military spending is on a downward slope, with the obvious uptick from 2003 to whenever. And military spending is *generally* pretty egalitarian - an awful lot of it goes to ordinary working guys/gals. No-bid Halliburton to be ignored for now, the rest works in a highly Keynsian fashion. And even Halliburton works out to be a lot going to people doing the work on the ground.

DROxINxTHExWIND: Somebody's getting paid, right? That would be Halliburton, among others.

Haliburton is the only company in the world that does what they do.

Haliburton is a publicly owned company so the investors are the ones getting the profits.

And given that the bottom %50 of the population pay less than 3% of taxes, its not like the rich are robbing the poor.

/I know a guy who works for them
//as a paramedic
///teh evil!!1!

NewportBarGuy: FlashLV: I was in ROTC in high school, I was in delayed entry for 3 years, December 14th was the day I got on the plane to go to boot camp.

December 11th I called my recruiter and told him I wasn't going.

Well, you prove to be a more fascinating character every day. We have a word for people like you, but... I'll resist the urge.

OMG Did FlashLV REALLY just say that!?

Isn't he one of the guys that beats the war drum all the frickin' time!?

Oooohhhh that pisses me off so farking much!~!!!!

My husband is over there right now wanting to come home alive and FLASHLV'S stupid ass is sitting pretty banging the war drum dipping out of service.... WHAT A FARKING DOUCHE!

I wish someone could explain to me how we will be successful in this war.
It is completely and utterly unwinnable.
Have you all ever had a discussion with someone devoutly religious? have you ever tried to change their views? Won't work.
No imagine that this person is willing to kill to protect their views. There is no person more dangerous than a someone who is willing to die for what they believe in.
The more that we kill those radicals, the more we incite their cause, the more that are willing to join. Its a never ending circle. We're not equipped to fight a war like this, and unfortunately, i think this will be how many wars in the future will be. Individual cells working together with the minimum knowledge of the actions of others. its too disorganized to completely destroy.
So how is this war worth the lives it is costing on both sides, and what do we expect to achieve vs. what is realistically achieveable?

UnkleKrakker: Prior to the most recent invasion, 1 tanker shipload of ricin was turned back from Iraq and sent back to their home port, in France.

Could I get a citation please? A cursory Google search didn't turn this up.

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds:

Ah, that old myth. First off, nobody else had the atomic bomb, so it's difficult to figure how it would have been used on us. Second, the Japanese were desparate to surrender months before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The war could have ended earlier, and without the vaporization of a few hundred thousand civilians - had Truman cared more about that than about intimidating the USSR.

Ahh that old myth. The Japanese wanted to, the people in charged DIDN'T want to. The Japanese was ruled by people who were war lords (I can't remember who they were exactly), and they called for war to continue AFTER the bomb was dropped. Why do you think we dropped a 2nd?

One of the most frustrating aspects of living in Japan is being told constantly that just about any circumstance, no matter how illogical, unfair, or easily eliminated, "cannot be helped" (shikata-ga-nai or sho-ga-nai).

Now we get word that Defense Minister Fumio Kyuma has applied shikata-ga-nai logic to the end of World War II, saying that the atomic bombing of Japan by the United States during World War II was.

"I understand that the bombing ended the war, and I think that it couldn't be helped," Kyodo News agency quoted Kyuma as saying in a speech at a university in Chiba.

Though Kyuma comes from Nagasaki, he is able to find a silver lining the way the U.S. ended the war in that it prevented the Soviet Union from laying claim to a piece of Japan.

Kyuma's remarks drew immediate criticism from Japanese atomic bomb victims.

"The U.S. justifies the bombings saying they saved many American lives," said Nobuo Miyake, 78, director-general of a group of victims living in Tokyo. "It's outrageous for a Japanese politician to voice such thinking. Japan is a victim."

In America, the bombings are widely seen as a weapon of last resort against an enemy that was determined to fight to the death but instead surrendered unconditionally, six days after Nagasaki was attacked.

There are many other things that say that Japan wasn't going to stop, many people with influence were pressured to surrender.

Fart_Machine: To be fair it also comes with a commemorative American flag.

tehvodak and free airfare!

Yeah but it's coach: stackin' you in like cordwood.

MEB
-so so SO going to hell! >:)

UnkleKrakker: Antimatter: The biggest thing keeping me from signing up after highschool was I hated how the military is used these days. Instead of fighting for freedom, justice, etc, we fight for whatever politcal boogyman cause the president can think up. As a result, people who really need help are ignored so the politicians can get more votes or make more money.

American lives should not be wasted like that.

As a combat vet from the "peaceful" 80's & 90's, I'm getting a big kick out of these comments.
Reminds me of all the troops who were surprised you might actually have to go to war or go in harm's way if you joined the military. Priceless. Lord know we only killed folks for "honorable" reasons back then.

/Flame on kids

They've been using the army as a tool for political gain since Korea.

I hated we invaded so many western Hemisphere nations because they elected marxist/communist/socialist/whatever governments, even though they were no harm to us.

I hated how we got involved in vietnam, everything about that conflict reeks of interferism and picking a fight that wasn't ours.

I hate how we installed so many dictators, bad governments, and killed millions over the 20th century.

I just can't trust the government to use the men and woman of the armed forces the way I think they should be used.

FlashLV: ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: I don't believe in killing people just because someone in Washington, D.C. said so. Am I a pussy?

No, but you may be a strawman!

Explain please?

Being in the military is about killing people. People in Washington decide whom you will kill. Where's the flaw in my logic?

and this:

According to General Sumihisa Ikeda and Admiral Zenshirô Hoshina, Privy Coucil President Hiranuma Kiichirō then turned to the Emperor and asked him : "Your majesty, you also bear responsibility (sekinin) for this defeat. What apology are you going to make to the heroic spirits of the imperial founder of your house and your other imperial ancestors?" [11]

Once the Emperor had left; Suzuki pushed the cabinet to accept the Emperor's will, which it did.

The Foreign Ministry sent telegrams to the Allies, announcing that Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration but would not comprise any demand which would prejudice the prerogatives of the Emperor. That effectively meant that the Tenno would remain a position of real power within the government-power that was normally wielded in his name by the people at the tops of the military and governmental hierarchies.

DasCoop: I wasn't bragging, I was showing that you can in fact get useful college courses for free while in the military.

NewportBarGuy: Yes, you can. However, it is VERY difficult to get the time to do it if you are in a combat MOS. Too much time out in the field, especially these days. Though, I knew tons of people in the medical and support MOS's who were finishing up their BA or BS.

Depends on your MOS in my experience. I asked for permission from my CO and he laughed at me.

See, there is this thing called time off, after work time. I went then. As for field time, I spoke with my instructors, and they let me turn the work in late when I had to go to the field. I found most were quite helpful and understanding.

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: Ah, that old myth. First off, nobody else had the atomic bomb, so it's difficult to figure how it would have been used on us. Second, the Japanese were desparate to surrender months before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The war could have ended earlier, and without the vaporization of a few hundred thousand civilians - had Truman cared more about that than about intimidating the USSR.

Yup....
The continuous fire bombing of Japanese cities pretty much did em in, this was WAY worse the the bomb.
McNamara even admitted fire bombing cities was a war crime.

miss_enthropic_biatch: Yeah but it's coach

not even. It's cargo.

rat_brain_flies_plane: NewportBarGuy: FlashLV: I was in ROTC in high school, I was in delayed entry for 3 years, December 14th was the day I got on the plane to go to boot camp.

December 11th I called my recruiter and told him I wasn't going.

Well, you prove to be a more fascinating character every day. We have a word for people like you, but... I'll resist the urge.

OMG Did FlashLV REALLY just say that!?

Isn't he one of the guys that beats the war drum all the frickin' time!?

Oooohhhh that pisses me off so farking much!~!!!!

My husband is over there right now wanting to come home alive and FLASHLV'S stupid ass is sitting pretty banging the war drum dipping out of service.... WHAT A FARKING DOUCHE!

IT WAS OVER 15 YEARS AGO TROLL!

rat_brain_flies_plane: NewportBarGuy: FlashLV: I was in ROTC in high school, I was in delayed entry for 3 years, December 14th was the day I got on the plane to go to boot camp.

December 11th I called my recruiter and told him I wasn't going.

Well, you prove to be a more fascinating character every day. We have a word for people like you, but... I'll resist the urge.

OMG Did FlashLV REALLY just say that!?

Isn't he one of the guys that beats the war drum all the frickin' time!?

Oooohhhh that pisses me off so farking much!~!!!!

My husband is over there right now wanting to come home alive and FLASHLV'S stupid ass is sitting pretty banging the war drum dipping out of service.... WHAT A FARKING DOUCHE!

Oh and I haven't backed this war here in years so DIAF douche!

I had a full-ride to a nice private university on an AF ROTC scholarship.

Two years into it, I decided I didn't want to go to war for the "wrong" reasons (yes, I was one of the few that understood "free college = risk of going to war"). So, I left.

Still paying the AF back for those two years of private university, but in weighing the "get killed for a cause I don't believe in" or "spend 10 years paying for schooling" I'm glad to be paying this debt.

They offered me the chance to transfer to the National Guard to waive the debt. I would have in a heart-beat, if the National Guard still actually guarded the nation. I'm all for flood, fire, and emergency relief. But, I knew that National Guard could be deployed, so I didn't go for that, either.

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: FlashLV: ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: I don't believe in killing people just because someone in Washington, D.C. said so. Am I a pussy?

No, but you may be a strawman!

Explain please?

Being in the military is about killing people. People in Washington decide whom you will kill. Where's the flaw in my logic?

If you think that's what the military is, then you have no clue what the military is.

T. Dawg: I had a full-ride to a nice private university on an AF ROTC scholarship.

Two years into it, I decided I didn't want to go to war for the "wrong" reasons (yes, I was one of the few that understood "free college = risk of going to war"). So, I left.

Still paying the AF back for those two years of private university, but in weighing the "get killed for a cause I don't believe in" or "spend 10 years paying for schooling" I'm glad to be paying this debt.

They offered me the chance to transfer to the National Guard to waive the debt. I would have in a heart-beat, if the National Guard still actually guarded the nation. I'm all for flood, fire, and emergency relief. But, I knew that National Guard could be deployed, so I didn't go for that, either.

When?

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: Being in the military is about killing people. People in Washington decide whom you will kill. Where's the flaw in my logic?


Nice sheep mentality...

DROxINxTHExWIND: Sir Charles: DROxINxTHExWIND: Somebody's getting paid, right? That would be Halliburton, among others.

Haliburton is the only company in the world that does what they do.

Haliburton is a publicly owned company so the investors are the ones getting the profits.

And given that the bottom %50 of the population pay less than 3% of taxes, its not like the rich are robbing the poor.

/I know a guy who works for them
//as a paramedic
///teh evil!!1!
==========================================================

Bullshiat, chief.

I happen to work for one of the largest defense contractors in the world (and I'm getting a kick...).

Halliburton is the only company that was ALLOWED to bid on what they are doing. MOST of the contracts that Halliburton gets are passed to sub-contractors whose companies WHERE NOT ALLOWED TO BID ON THE JOBS THAT THEY ARE NOW WORKING. They submit invoices to Halliburton for the materials, labor hours, etc. used to complete the project and Halliburton invoices the government...FOR MORE THAN THE INDIVIDUAL COMPANY WOULD HAVE CHARGED.

/THE MORE YOU KNOW...

Suck, sucks when Halliburton got the same deals before GWB.

FlashLV Quote 2007-07-30 02:38:31 PM
pvd021: FlashLV Quote 2007-07-30 02:26:13 PM



You are correct on everything and I agree, I was just pointing out that there have been many wars without a declaration of it.

I tend to disagree with what you bolded because the answer is not to raise taxes, that's just a band-aid, and all the reports of how the economy is booming disagree with you.

The real solution is to FIX spending, then there will be no need to raise taxes. There is no real need now that I can see. Why should we raise taxes?

Asking this president to curb down on spending is like asking the younger years bush jr to curb down on his drinking and lines of coke. You can ask but it just won't happen. Besides the 'money' has already been spent so the payment needs to be made...
The BS in all of this is as much as the republicans love this president and this invasion, they'll turn their backs on their president as soon as he proposes a tax hike to pay for something that they supported. They're hypocrites in this sense.

I say if you support the war, your president and this cause by all means go and sign up. Just don't biatch and complain and demand to be celebrated as a hero if you come back with a missing limb, a crippled or worse. You might think of yourself as a hero, but the rest of us just looks at you as a foolish pawn. Because essentially that's what they are. They're not defending any American civilians, America or our way of life. They're protecting the interest of Halliburton, the oil industry, and certain groups of iraqi people, NONE of which are the functions of the US military.

But then again, you broke, you fix it. So back to the killing fields you created.

We did a catchy song for the Navy, I think we can help.

/2001: A Space Travesty was pretty awful but the In The Navy scene at the end, performed by a line of tenors with a FULL orchestra, getting every current politically important character up and dancing was EPIC.

My 17 year-old daughter is in week 3 of Army basic... Let's just say I will be shocked if even half the promises the Army made to her are kept.

Unfortunately, she lived with her mother prior to enlisting and I would get verbally reamed anytime I even hinted at anything negative. The plan is for her to go on to college (and eventual OTS) after basic, which I know is fairly common... But I'm still extremely nervous.

It could be interesting... Her older brother is enlisted Air Force and, if all goes well, will have to salute her. What a picture that'll be.

NewportBarGuy: Oh, you are exactly right. My situation was a little different. It was a brand new brigade, and the hours getting it up and running just pretty much ruled it out for me.

Did you do the eArmyU thing? I heard that worked very well, especially, as you say, with instructors being very flexible.

Nope, all brick and mortar college classes, Cochise Community College. I tried to sign up for the eArmyU thing, but I found it buggy and frustrating, so I said fark it.

/Bedtime now, if anyone out there hates me and wants to rant at me, throw it out here, I will review it when I come back from working with the Iraqis tomorrow.

//8 hours ahead of eastern time=rough time on the internets

If you have kids that are thinking about the military you do 2 things.

1st; Talk to them about their intentions and make sure they fully understand what they are getting into.
2nd; Talk to their recruiter yourself and get everything in writing. Recruiters are lying, unscrupulous f*cks who will stop at nothing to get their quota.

Joining the military is a life changing proposition and if you're not ready for it.... sucks to be you.

\8 year vet USN
\\my recruiter lied his ass off and was gonna get cockpunched when i got out of bootcamp but i got the "A" school i wanted and he didn't get his "nuke" bonus

Antimatter: UnkleKrakker: Antimatter: The biggest thing keeping me from signing up after highschool was I hated how the military is used these days. Instead of fighting for freedom, justice, etc, we fight for whatever politcal boogyman cause the president can think up. As a result, people who really need help are ignored so the politicians can get more votes or make more money.

American lives should not be wasted like that.

As a combat vet from the "peaceful" 80's & 90's, I'm getting a big kick out of these comments.
Reminds me of all the troops who were surprised you might actually have to go to war or go in harm's way if you joined the military. Priceless. Lord know we only killed folks for "honorable" reasons back then.

/Flame on kids

They've been using the army as a tool for political gain since Korea.

I hated we invaded so many western Hemisphere nations because they elected marxist/communist/socialist/whatever governments, even though they were no harm to us.

I hated how we got involved in vietnam, everything about that conflict reeks of interferism and picking a fight that wasn't ours.

I hate how we installed so many dictators, bad governments, and killed millions over the 20th century.

I just can't trust the government to use the men and woman of the armed forces the way I think they should be used.

An you are absolutely entitled to have that opinion, war is always ugly, whether it's declared or not, but sometimes it's necessary. If people would vote with as much passion as they argue, then maybe they won't be so much in the future. In the meantime, the troops that go in harm's way deserve the respect of those who don't, or won't.

tehvodak: Jakevol2: tehvodak: chick·en·hawk (chĭk'ən-hôk') Informal A person who favors military force or action to carry out a foreign policy but has never served in the military.

Hmmm. I never said I supported this conflict. You keep saying that word, I don't think it means what you think it means...

Wow! Words have only one definition? Or only one iterpretation? Words don't change meanings over time? I am so glad English is a lot simpler than what my English Professor told me it was.


My point is if you don't want to serve in the military, you don't have to, but keep the cheerleader bullshiat about how you would if you didn't have a better thing going.

I'm guessing that you've taken offense to this post:

tehvodak: anyone that I've talked to has said that that option isn't worth it. his plan sounds good to me.

Just stating an opinion based on what I've heard. You don't have to be a military doctor to help those in the military. Some things can just be done better from the outside. I just thought that luftwaffles' plan seemed like a good one. I respect your POV, and didn't set out to piss in your cornflakes.

Sorry if I a m coming across a bit agressive about my feelings about this:

"There are ways to serve without being in the military"

It emediatly makes me think of this guy.



and it pisses me off that it seems like the military is being use for his and others like him interest. I feel it is my duty to remain dillegent in making sure the interest of the common citezen of this country is met before douchenozzles like him. The way I do it is to call out people's misguided bullshiat. Sometimes well meaning people get caught in my sights by accident

So I do apologize if you are sincere in your intent to help injured soldiers sailors and marines. It is noble. If you are just saying and never do it, you don't need me to tell you that you are an asshole. Just think about this thread if you get that shiny red BMW before you do one pro bono proceedure on a wounded vet.

dArthvAter: ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: Being in the military is about killing people. People in Washington decide whom you will kill. Where's the flaw in my logic?


Nice sheep mentality...

Again: explain.

/clicky

UnkleKrakker: In the meantime, the troops that go in harm's way deserve the respect of those who don't, or won't.

I'd appreciate a citation on the "ricin" thing you referred to earlier, when you have a moment to dig it out.

If anyone wants to know ways in which they can harm or manipulate their bodies in such a way as they would be disqualified from deployment without really lowering the quality of your health or life just let me know. I'm dying use as much of my med. school knowledge as I can.

Luftwaffles: If anyone wants to know ways in which they can harm or manipulate their bodies in such a way as they would be disqualified from deployment without really lowering the quality of your health or life just let me know. I'm dying use as much of my med. school knowledge as I can.

You mean gay sex, don't you?

ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: dArthvAter: ThisOneBelongsToTheReds: Being in the military is about killing people. People in Washington decide whom you will kill. Where's the flaw in my logic?


Nice sheep mentality...

Again: explain.

Not my original post. My issue: when does thinking for yourself enter into the equation?

pvd021:

Asking this president to curb down on spending is like asking the younger years bush jr to curb down on his drinking and lines of coke. You can ask but it just won't happen. Besides the 'money' has already been spent so the payment needs to be made...
The BS in all of this is as much as the republicans love this president and this invasion, they'll turn their backs on their president as soon as he proposes a tax hike to pay for something that they supported. They're hypocrites in this sense.

And I thought you wanted to have a grown up conversation now, I guess I was wrong.

Not all Republicans and not all Democrats are against it.

Democrats aren't hypocrites? Is that what you're saying? All politicians are hypocrites.

I say if you support the war, your president and this cause by all means go and sign up. Just don't biatch and complain and demand to be celebrated as a hero if you come back with a missing limb, a crippled or worse. You might think of yourself as a hero, but the rest of us just looks at you as a foolish pawn. Because essentially that's what they are. They're not defending any American civilians, America or our way of life. They're protecting the interest of Halliburton, the oil industry, and certain groups of iraqi people, NONE of which are the functions of the US military.

See that where I start to dislike you and think you would fit in better in Cuba or some place like that. The troops never go and never come back expecting to be heroes, that's just idiocy talking.

LOL I like how you ignore the things they are doing, the things you listed is a small percentage of what they are doing, I'de like to see you back any of that up.

FlashLV:

Oh and I haven't backed this war here in years so DIAF douche!

Yup, send someone else to DIAF. NICE.

Luftwaffles: If anyone wants to know ways in which they can harm or manipulate their bodies in such a way as they would be disqualified from deployment without really lowering the quality of your health or life just let me know. I'm dying use as much of my med. school knowledge as I can.

I lol'ed