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(Politico)   Missing the mark once again, John Edwards campaigns on forcing schools upon students rather than letting them choose where to go   (dyn.politico.com) divider line 61
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448 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Jul 2007 at 11:21 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-07-17 10:48:27 AM  
More social engineering by a smug, arrogant, lear-jet liberal.

Meh.
 
2007-07-17 10:57:09 AM  
i hate it when Fark headlines are nothing more than a tool for catapulting the propaganda

-1 to Fark for the headline
-1 to subby for his sad little life of repeating Republican party clichés
 
2007-07-17 11:14:39 AM  
TFA: The proposals Edwards plans to unveil would encourage income diversity in schools, in the hope that poor students would have more experienced teachers and motivated classmates.

Because it's got *nothing* to do with family situations and everything to do with money. Riiight.

Typical lawyer solution to any problem: Find a wallet and start throwing money.
 
2007-07-17 11:27:58 AM  
Mighty_Dog: More social engineering by a smug, arrogant, lear-jet liberal.

Meh.


I really like the inflation in trollish from "limousine liberal" to "lear-jet liberal."
 
2007-07-17 11:29:45 AM  
schooling should not be the burden of the government anymore, in an effort to control population the benefits people get for having children should be eliminated.
 
2007-07-17 11:38:20 AM  
Since when do we give a fark what kids want?
 
2007-07-17 11:39:15 AM  
Headso: schooling should not be the burden of the government anymore, in an effort to control population the benefits people get for having children should be eliminated.

Neither should laws. We should totally return to the state of nature and allow people to kill each other, because we are all rugged individuals and getting ahead for #1 is the most important interest ever.
 
2007-07-17 11:39:18 AM  
"We still have two public school systems in this country," Edwards said. "They're not segregated just based on race. They're segregated, to a large extent, based on economics, which has racial implications."

Primarily, schools are segregated based on geography... and people with similar economic and racial backgrounds choose to live in the same neighborhoods.

I'm all for improving lousy public schools, but let's not devalue the issue by calling this segregation.
 
2007-07-17 11:41:36 AM  
LocalCynic: Neither should laws. We should totally return to the state of nature and allow people to kill each other, because we are all rugged individuals and getting ahead for #1 is the most important interest ever.

not only did you strawman, you went in the opposite direction with it, good work!
 
2007-07-17 11:42:16 AM  
wow...that's a troll-rific headline...and I even agree with subby

/ waits for inevitable flamewar
// one large popcorn please
 
2007-07-17 11:43:07 AM  
Wow. You know that submitter's a moron when his headline is about as disconnected from both reality and what the article actually says as Mighty_Dog's reply is.
 
2007-07-17 11:43:33 AM  
thenateman: I'm all for improving lousy public schools, but let's not devalue the issue by calling this segregation.

It's one thing if people decide to create an enclave and you have a homogeneous neighborhood. It's another thing if you have redlining efforts where people refuse to sell to poor people or minorities, or where minorities and poor people are forced out of an area by gentrification and eminent domain.

And don't tell me that this stuff doesn't happen anymore.
 
2007-07-17 11:44:44 AM  
Headso: not only did you strawman, you went in the opposite direction with it, good work!

The problem is government, not schools. Therefore, we should eliminate laws and let the strong fight it out. It's guaranteed to stop social engineering.
 
2007-07-17 11:45:11 AM  
Isn't this exactly what the supreme court ruled against last week? Bussins kids two hours because they need more white kids at inner city schools?
 
2007-07-17 11:46:25 AM  
...John Edwards Campaigns on forcing schools upon students...

Where exactly is anyone being forced here?
 
2007-07-17 11:49:06 AM  
ohhhhh nooooo!!! Look at me!!! I am a middle class snob who doesn't want any diry brown kids in my school!! Oh noooo!!! What if they touch my precious child and make them brown!!??!! Oh nooooooo!!!!! I make too much money to let anyone who may be POOR got to school with my precious child!!!

LOL!! LOL!!!

News flash!!! Poor kids have just as much right to your snobby middle class school with the good teachers, as your spoiled snot nosed loser kid does!!!! Making more money does not give you the right to bogart the school, neo-con LOSER!
 
2007-07-17 11:49:46 AM  
LocalCynic: It's one thing if people decide to create an enclave and you have a homogeneous neighborhood. It's another thing if you have redlining efforts where people refuse to sell to poor people or minorities, or where minorities and poor people are forced out of an area by gentrification and eminent domain.

And don't tell me that this stuff doesn't happen anymore.


More often than not, it's a voluntary economic decision. How many poor black people do you think live in John Edwards' neighborhood?
 
2007-07-17 11:50:17 AM  
LocalCynic: The problem is government

keep missing the point, I'm suggesting the government influence our dangerous rise in population by adjusting or eliminating the benefits people get by adding to to population.
 
2007-07-17 11:50:48 AM  
Smearing headline aside, I do think the school system should change to per-student funding and 100 percent parental choice. This type of system succeeded in California and other cities have been using it as a model to reform their depreciating school system.
 
2007-07-17 11:50:52 AM  
costa: Isn't this exactly what the supreme court ruled against last week? Bussins kids two hours because they need more white kids at inner city schools?

No, because he's proposing an income based diversity program, as opposed to a race based diversity program.
 
2007-07-17 11:53:40 AM  
I have an idea...

How about the inner-city kids stop being such fark-ups. Stop gang-banging, carrying guns, screwing around in class, and causing trouble. Then your schools would be just fine and you wouldn't have to be bussed to the magic suburban schools.

Nah, that would never work. That would involve responsibility and self awareness. Never mind. Go back to screwing around and sooner or later some bleeding heart will get you a free pass to a good school.
 
2007-07-17 11:54:24 AM  
Headso: LocalCynic: The problem is government

keep missing the point, I'm suggesting the government influence our dangerous rise in population by adjusting or eliminating the benefits people get by adding to to population.


This hasn't worked in China so why would it work in a democracy?
 
2007-07-17 11:54:48 AM  
LocalCynic: It's one thing if people decide to create an enclave and you have a homogeneous neighborhood. It's another thing if you have redlining efforts where people refuse to sell to poor people or minorities, or where minorities and poor people are forced out of an area by gentrification and eminent domain.

And don't tell me that this stuff doesn't happen anymore.


That's why my folks moved out of MA. They moved to the South because it was less racist there.
 
2007-07-17 11:54:50 AM  
Whoopty Whoo The Precious Bongo Boy: Making more money does not give you the right to bogart the school, neo-con LOSER!

Of course it does.
More money = more rights. Always has.

/originally, that was supposed to be a joke. Then I started actually thinking about it...
 
2007-07-17 11:56:22 AM  
thenateman: Primarily, schools are segregated based on geography... and people with similar economic and racial backgrounds choose to live in the same neighborhoods.

I'm all for improving lousy public schools, but let's not devalue the issue by calling this segregation.


Sadly thats not always the case, in my town you have strange school lines drawn based entirely on economic lines. For instance there is a poor school that has a middle class neighborhood 1 block from it, that neighborhood is not part of that schools zone. But if you live anywhere in the poor neighborhood or the warehouse districts 5 miles away or before the interstate you will go to that poor school.
 
2007-07-17 11:59:05 AM  
Will John Edwards give up HIS childs slot in a school or college to a poor blacky? Because his proposed "solution" will surely cause SOMEBODY'S white child to lose his slot to a poor person.

/Talking the talk is worthless John...Walk the walk or shut up.
//On second thought, just shut up.
 
2007-07-17 11:59:07 AM  
TheConvincingSavant: This hasn't worked in China so why would it work in a democracy?

well, China has instituted only 1 child laws and has gone as far as forced sterilization and pressuring to abort pregnancies, those measures have been credited for reducing their population by 300 million in the 25 years it has been instituted. It is also not anywhere near what I was suggesting, so your comparison is based in ignorance. I was just suggesting not paying people for increasing our population anymore.
 
2007-07-17 11:59:16 AM  
thenateman: More often than not, it's a voluntary economic decision. How many poor black people do you think live in John Edwards' neighborhood?

I'll repeat what I said since you're being intentionally daft. It's one thing if segregation is the result of people choosing to live in a racially or ethnically homogeneous neighborhood. It is another thing if these people who choose to live in a homogeneous neighborhood refuse to allow poor people or other people of other ethnic/racial backgrounds to live there.

Two common practices cause homogeneous neighborhoods. First, many developers have chosen to build the same hundred McMansions, rather than produce mixed income developments. As a result, many areas are becoming more and more economically segregated. Second, the use of eminent domain in poor areas (whether in a Kelo-like fashion or for roads/etc) has resulted in poor people being forced into segregated areas.

For middle income minorities, segregation is still a problem. Redlining is still a large problem in many areas of the country.
 
2007-07-17 12:08:58 PM  
DarthBrooks: TFA: The proposals Edwards plans to unveil would encourage income diversity in schools, in the hope that poor students would have more experienced teachers and motivated classmates.

Because it's got *nothing* to do with family situations and everything to do with money. Riiight.

Typical lawyer solution to any problem: Find a wallet and start throwing money.


What? Money isn't being thrown anywhere. He just wants rich, middle-class and poor kids to be in the same classes together.

I do think families should have a choice, however, of public schools. And not because I think private school vouchers are unconstitutional. I don't think they are, because there's a choice to spend it on a merely private school or a parochial school. If the bulk of the population is attending a good public school system, it ensures that every kid has the same opportunity and prevents kids from being segmented from eachother based on income/religion/family connections. A common educational base is good for the country.

The problem is making sure that base is actually, you know, good. Fixing our public schools and making them good is the answer. Vouchers are a band-aid.
 
2007-07-17 12:14:52 PM  
LocalCynic: First, many developers have chosen to build the same hundred McMansions, rather than produce mixed income developments. As a result, many areas are becoming more and more economically segregated. Second, the use of eminent domain in poor areas (whether in a Kelo-like fashion or for roads/etc) has resulted in poor people being forced into segregated areas.

Since when does the president get involved in local zoning decisions? Maybe he should testify at zoning commission hearings rather than proposing national legislation. Maybe he should use his lawyering powers for challenging racist use of eminent domain, which is already illegal.

Federal policy changes aren't the answer here, nor are the issues you identified problems with the school system.
 
2007-07-17 12:23:30 PM  
shouldnt brats go to school according to where they live and where their parents pay property tax to fund that particular school?

letting students choose to go anywhere they please is actually more socialists.
 
2007-07-17 12:24:30 PM  
thenateman: Federal policy changes aren't the answer here, nor are the issues you identified problems with the school system.

If the answer was that simple, this wouldn't be a problem.

For a long time bigots shouted "local control" from the rooftops because they wanted the right to have "separate but equal" schools, drinking fountains, etc. Then the big bad federal gubment said that wasn't constitutional.

Then the courts got involved and started desegregating schools. And the localities howled. Eventually outright bigotry fell out of vogue and local school boards became more and more liberal and decided to take matters into their own hands.

Then the states decided to take over school districts, forcing voucher systems in certain states, statewide testing in the rest of them as per an Orwellian named federal law.

The fact is that the days of local control of schools are over. If you want to have a blast from the past of 1980's Republicanism to abolish the Department of Education, you'll still have states taking over what "should be" local decisions.
 
2007-07-17 12:25:07 PM  
dem372: I have an idea...

How about the inner-city kids stop being such fark-ups. Stop gang-banging, carrying guns, screwing around in class, and causing trouble. Then your schools would be just fine and you wouldn't have to be bussed to the magic suburban schools.

Nah, that would never work. That would involve responsibility and self awareness. Never mind. Go back to screwing around and sooner or later some bleeding heart will get you a free pass to a good school.


Sweet! Let's fix the problem by expecting inner city children to conduct themselves in a more mature manner than most adults ever achieve. Responsibility and self awareness are not American values. It is all the fault of the muslims/poor/gays/aethiests.

I think I will be finding a private school for my son. Unfortunately, it would be a lot easier to find a private school willing to indoctrinate him in some religion than it will be finding one that will instill good logic and problem solving skills.
 
2007-07-17 12:54:03 PM  
heres a crazy farking thought...


why not fund ALL public schools equally based on student population... that way you don't have to worry about which one your crotch dropping attends?

vouchers won't fix shiat.
 
2007-07-17 12:55:07 PM  
kevinatilusa: Where exactly is anyone being forced here?

What would you call it when the government tells you what school to attend?

Whoopty Whoo The Precious Bongo Boy: Poor kids have just as much right to your snobby middle class school with the good teachers, as your spoiled snot nosed loser kid does!!!! Making more money does not give you the right to bogart the school

No shiat. Which is why anyone should be able to choose which school they wish to go to.
 
2007-07-17 01:00:22 PM  
Stratohead: crotch dropping

Well then... my lunch tastes a little different after reading that.
 
2007-07-17 01:12:05 PM  
I hate this political bullshiat- especially lately.

Pay the teachers in public schools across the board more money. Invest money in the schools and school infrastructure and provide counselors to help children from inner city and anywhere else cope with growing up in whatever environment they are in. Focus on education and then reap the rewards in 10, 15, 20 years as these children graduate to become better educated and more responsible adults.

WTF do vouchers have to do with this? I don't want to fund private schools. If I want my kids to go to private schools, I will spend the money to do so.
 
2007-07-17 01:22:32 PM  
Mighty_Dog: More social engineering by a smug, arrogant, lear-jet liberal.

Meh.


you should probably amputate the left side of your body just to be safe
 
2007-07-17 01:25:19 PM  
I don't want my tax money to go to private schools. this will only take money away from public schools and leave them with less funding. this will be bad for the poor kids who can't afford to go to private schools even with a voucher.

can't you people understand this??
the answer to the public education problem is not to take funding from them and give it to private schools.
 
2007-07-17 01:32:44 PM  
Working hard, getting a good education, saving your money, and generally succeeding in life is not longer a valued principle in this country. If you want your kids to attend a better school, then you should (or should have) gotten a marketable skill, gone out into the work force and made money so you can afford a better house. No excuses, no sympathy.
 
2007-07-17 01:36:13 PM  
Frank N Stein: If you want your kids to attend a better school, then you should (or should have) gotten a marketable skill, gone out into the work force and made money so you can afford a better house. No excuses, no sympathy.

Agreed, if you're poor and lazy, your children should suffer. Suck it, kids.
 
2007-07-17 01:41:02 PM  
LocalCynic: Headso: not only did you strawman, you went in the opposite direction with it, good work!

The problem is government, not schools. Therefore, we should eliminate laws and let the strong fight it out. It's guaranteed to stop social engineering.


How is the problem the Government? The government has been throwing more and more money at it. I think it's the waste and the fact the some parents think teachers are babysitters.
 
2007-07-17 01:45:03 PM  
Agreed, if you're poor and lazy, your children should suffer. Suck it, kids.

No one said that life was fair.
 
2007-07-17 01:45:27 PM  
 
2007-07-17 01:55:57 PM  
You mean parents choice of schools... Anyway.

I love how pissy Republicans can get if someone who is rich decides that he's not just for the personal accumulation of wealth and thinks that some of that should be spread around.

"Oh he's a Lear jet librul!" "Oh what a hypocrite, he's rich AND librul!"

Yeah, it's much better to be a selfish, arrogant "I got mine so fark you" douchebag.

The other part I find hysterical is that people who would benefit most from it don't recognize it.

Keep cheering for the super-rich you idiots. In which case, if you are super rich, you have some vested interest I suppose, but if you're not, you're a farking moran.
 
2007-07-17 01:58:11 PM  
LocalCynic: Agreed, if you're poor and lazy, your children should suffer don't have children.


Or is that asking too much?
 
2007-07-17 02:12:14 PM  
EbolaNYC: You mean parents choice of schools... Anyway.

I love how pissy Republicans can get if someone who is rich decides that he's not just for the personal accumulation of wealth and thinks that some of that should be spread around.

"Oh he's a Lear jet librul!" "Oh what a hypocrite, he's rich AND librul!"

Yeah, it's much better to be a selfish, arrogant "I got mine so fark you" douchebag.

The other part I find hysterical is that people who would benefit most from it don't recognize it.

Keep cheering for the super-rich you idiots. In which case, if you are super rich, you have some vested interest I suppose, but if you're not, you're a farking moran.



Well that was hard to read. You would get your point across better if you used proper English.

Anyways; do I believe that the wealthy have an advantage in this country? Yes, I do. But you see, someone is wealthy, usually, due to hard work. You seem to think that wealthy people don't deserve their benefits, but that is not true. When you work hard and get good grades, and you are smart, you more than likely will succeed in this country. It's really quite simple, but it does take hard work. And the great thing about this country is that anyone can succeed. I know it sound cliché, but I believe that's the truth. Now, these poor* children still have a chance to do good and become well to do, despite their disadvantaged situation. All it takes is good parenting and an attentive child. The school system, while in a bad shape, can still give children what they need to get into college. From there it's up to the parent and child.
Work ethic is something that is, sadly, dying in this country. We are truly in the "me" generation. Everyone expects a hand out. More than likely, the government bends to that request eventually. It establishes dependence on the government and tramples dependence on self. This, in turn, perpetuates the cycle of government reliance, until there is no need to expect a better life.

*By poor, I mean Americans standard of poor. As in they still have a TV with cable, a computer, and a home or apartment, and not starving to death. The poor in this country are considered wealthy in others.
 
2007-07-17 02:12:19 PM  
Stratohead: heres a crazy farking thought...


why not fund ALL public schools equally based on student population... that way you don't have to worry about which one your crotch dropping attends?

vouchers won't fix shiat.


Costs aren't equal for all areas.
Rural areas require more money for bussing, but less for land costs.
Urban areas need to pay teachers more because the cost of living in an urban area is higher.
Once you work in utilities, building maintenance, projected growth, staff salaries, and some other stuff I am sure I am missing the cost will be quite a bit different for many schools.
 
2007-07-17 02:26:29 PM  
Frank N Stein,

You win.
I find it silly that the government needs to remedy all of these problems. I never received a proper education until I was 15, having been born into a tribal community in Ethiopia and then moving to America. I finished high school at 19, joined the Army, went to college and graduated early, and now, at 32, would be considered wealthy in most any part of the world. I would say that I was much more disadvantaged that your average african-american, yet I did more to better myself in 17 years than your average anglo-american. Personal responsibility and drive have much more to do with success than ANY aspect of the American educational system.

/rant end
//yes, sometimes my english still sucks
 
2007-07-17 03:02:07 PM  
Thurg: Personal responsibility and drive have much more to do with success than ANY aspect of the American educational system.

Watch your mouth!
 
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