Tat'dGreaser: The problem I have is that gay couples don't get their partnerships recognized for benefits and such, because they can't call it a marriage. I just can't figure out how people don't understand this.

Who doesn't understand?

Tat'dGreaser: I just can't figure out how people don't understand this.

Let me tell ya a little story. My old boss is gay. He's a crazy fark, but his husband of 6 years is a cool guy. The two of them don't have a ton of money, but they're well off. They have a three year old daughter. She's amazing, but that's beside the point. The point is that even their lawyer still hasn't been able to crack through the legal dramas that would have been immediately resolved with the word marriage.

A couple months ago, partner B (the one who isn't my boss) got mugged while riding his bike along the chicago lakefront. Got his face broken pretty good. My boss takes their daughter (at this point technically only his daughter although they've been raising her together for over a year). Since they didn't have the word 'marriage,' my boss had to explain to his three year old daughter that she couldn't she her other father in the emergency room because the laws weren't fair.

That's why the word is important. People immediately understand what it means. "Partner" does not mean family.

Hang On Voltaire: If the government started recognizing marriage as a violent bout of the shiats then yes it would be offensive

Ok, I thought your issue was with the word and the tradition of the word, I didn't know you actually were trying to deny people their rights through the government that the bond we call marriage provides, that makes your view much more mean spirited IMO...

Chester Fields: Apparently you disagree, but you're entitled to think whatever you want.

Can someone remind me when the fark it was decided that every view/opinion is supposed to have equal weight? If someone comes out and says that the sun revolves around the earth thats not them being entitled to their own opinion, thats them being wrong.

And as for your inane comparison: Almost 4,000 Americans have died, tens of thousands have been injured, hundreds of thousands have served and hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars have been spent. To say that the war has nothing in the least to do with war-protesters in the same way that a gay couple getting married has nothing to do with any other person may be your opinion, but your opinion is stupid and wrong.

FlashLV: I disagree, to some it has to do with tradition and nothing to do with religion. I don't care if gay people get married, but I think some people look at it as changing a tradition that they don't want to give up.

"Tradition" is not a good reason for denying rights and protections under the law to people. Black people were traditionally denied rights up until about 40 years ago. Should we have continued to deny them those rights simply because it was "tradition?"

Again, give marriage back to the curches and apply one universal legal definition to unions of consenting adults. "Marriage" doesn't change in the slightest as per tradition, and every union is equal in the eyes of the law.

Problem solved.

Just like people being asked to give up saying 'Merry
Christmas'.

Dude, you almost had a grown-up post, but you just *had* to throw this one in there, didn't you? No one is being "asked to give up saying 'Merry Christmas.'"

The Homer Tax:

"Tradition" is not a good reason for denying rights and protections under the law to people. Black people were traditionally denied rights up until about 40 years ago. Should we have continued to deny them those rights simply because it was "tradition?"

Slow down, I never said it was a good idea or not. I'm saying that's the reason, don't pull what you are pulling. You were talking religion and I was saying that's not the reason for everyone.

Dude, you almost had a grown-up post, but you just *had* to throw this one in there, didn't you? No one is being "asked to give up saying 'Merry Christmas.'"

Not going into this because it wasn't my main point, but some people were told to say 'Happy Holidays' so they wouldn't offend people. That was people I know.

FuriousGeorge945: : FuriousGeorge945: Chester Fields: Apparently you disagree, but you're entitled to think whatever you want.

Can someone remind me when the fark it was decided that every view/opinion is supposed to have equal weight? If someone comes out and says that the sun revolves around the earth thats not them being entitled to their own opinion, thats them being wrong.

Haha, that made me laugh. That is by far the DUMBEST comparison I have EVER read.

The earth revolving around the sun is a provable fact, political issues are not. Gay marriage being wrong is not provable, the war in Iraq being wrong is not provable. Therefore, people are allowed to have opinions without being wrong.

I am a Christian...and I hate other Christians. I hate the fact that so many Christians embrace hatred, devisiveness, and ignorance to try to force Jesus on those who dont believe. I have been reading Fark for a while, and my heart breaks when I read all my fellow farkers cry out against Christianity.

I can tell that all of you who passionately bash Christ have been scarred by a "Christian." That pains me. Our job as Christians is to love. Jesus ate with the unloved, the scorned, those who society shunned. He did not withhold love from those who were lepers, gay, socially awkward. Interestingly enough his wrath was for the "religious leaders" of the day.

Please dont hold all Christians as ignorant hate mongers. The bottom line is that I love Jesus, and I try to love others. Its not an "us v them" world...I love hippies, liberals, gays...


/read Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller

I am going to make a documentary about the injustice that is doled out on the poor biological brothers and sisters that aren't permitted to be married, and are socially outcast by those heartless bigots of the right wing variety.

/what?
//marriage isn't about sex....or offspring.

FreeFromGreen: I am a Christian...and I hate other Christians. I hate the fact that so many Christians embrace hatred, devisiveness, and ignorance to try to force Jesus on those who dont believe. I have been reading Fark for a while, and my heart breaks when I read all my fellow farkers cry out against Christianity.

I can tell that all of you who passionately bash Christ have been scarred by a "Christian." That pains me. Our job as Christians is to love. Jesus ate with the unloved, the scorned, those who society shunned. He did not withhold love from those who were lepers, gay, socially awkward. Interestingly enough his wrath was for the "religious leaders" of the day.

Please dont hold all Christians as ignorant hate mongers. The bottom line is that I love Jesus, and I try to love others. Its not an "us v them" world...I love hippies, liberals, gays...


/read Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller

Cheers. Thanks for this.

FlashLV: Slow down, I never said it was a good idea or not. I'm saying that's the reason, don't pull what you are pulling. You were talking religion and I was saying that's not the reason for everyone.

That's fine, I don't give a shiat. I am arguing against, then people who are saying "tradition" is the reason. I'm not "pulling" anything, I'm merely arguing that "tradition" is even worse of a reason then "religion."

Not going into this because it wasn't my main point, but some people were told to say 'Happy Holidays' so they wouldn't offend people. That was people I know.

That sounds like spin to me, but we're not going into it, so never mind.

Hang On Voltaire:Exactly. If it the results are the same then why change marriage?

Why call it something different if it's the same thing?

Keep in mind that I do not accept the idea that marriage is the exclusive property of the Christian church.

darkyn: Hang On Voltaire:Exactly. If it the results are the same then why change marriage?

Why call it something different if it's the same thing?


It's not the same thing. That's the whole point.

Chester Fields: It's not the same thing. That's the whole point.

What's different aside from the sex of those involved?

Chester Fields: It's not the same thing. That's the whole point.

I can't follow you anymore.

So I'll just leave with the ol' if domestic partnership is different from marriage, then we're not providing equal access to the law.

darkyn: Chester Fields: It's not the same thing. That's the whole point.

What's different aside from the sex of those involved?

What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

Chester Fields: What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

I asked for an explanation for how same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage are marriage are different aside from the sex of those involved. Not for an unrelated rhetorical question.

Please try again.

Chester Fields:What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

Citrus. Cell structure. Color. Environmental preferences. Floral structure. Tree size.

Now you go.

peterquince: Chester Fields: It's not the same thing. That's the whole point.

I can't follow you anymore.

So I'll just leave with the ol' if domestic partnership is different from marriage, then we're not providing equal access to the law.

If you marry a woman, you do get equal access to the law.

peterquince: Chester Fields:What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

Citrus. Cell structure. Color. Environmental preferences. Floral structure. Tree size.

Now you go.

One couple can reproduce together, the other can't.

Chester Fields: If you marry a woman, you do get equal access to the law.

Which brings up another of my favorite strawmen.

Here you go: No. I'm looking for the right to be like women. It is a sexist proposition to believe that only 50% of the population has the right to marry a man.

Absurd, you say? Think about it this way. I'm a man. I'm the greatest guy in the world. There is absolutely no reason that anyone would fail to want to marry me. That's right, even you. You just don't necessarily know it yet. And somehow, only half the people with legal standing in this country are allowed to marry me. And the differentiation is based on gender.

If you can't deny a woman a job just for being a woman. Why should you be able to deny her from marriage?

Chester Fields: If you marry a woman, you do get equal access to the law.

This is the most pathetic argument that the anti gay marriage people have. Seriously, do you say this with a straight face?

Chester Fields: peterquince: Chester Fields:What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

Citrus. Cell structure. Color. Environmental preferences. Floral structure. Tree size.

Now you go.

One couple can reproduce together, the other can't.

Not all straight couples can reproduce. For your theory to hold up, legislation would have to exist suggesting that all married couples are required to reproduce in a certain amount of time or risk losing their license.

This has been debunked. Try a second time.

darkyn: Chester Fields: What's the difference between an apple and a orange aside from the fact that they aren't the same?

I asked for an explanation for how same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage are marriage are different aside from the sex of those involved. Not for an unrelated rhetorical question.

Please try again.

You asked how two things were different excluding their differences. I merely pointed this out.

Chester Fields: One couple can reproduce together, the other can't.

This is the other. I have to be honest, this one isn't much less pathetic. By this logic, infertile couples should not be able to marry.

The Homer Tax:

peterquince:
Not all straight couples can reproduce. For your theory to hold up, legislation would have to exist suggesting that all married couples are required to reproduce in a certain amount of time or risk losing their license.

My theory, call me crazy by the way, is that males and females (generally, Of course there are exceptions) can reproduce together. That is why a relationship between a M and F is different from a relationship between a M and another M.

Chester Fields:My theory, call me crazy by the way, is that males and females (generally, Of course there are exceptions) can reproduce together. That is why a relationship between a M and F is different from a relationship between a M and another M.

Hey. That's almost an argument.

Now connect how that has ANY relevance in connection to Marriage vs. "Civil Unions."

Go.

Chester Fields: You asked how two things were different excluding their differences. I merely pointed this out.

So the only difference is the sex of those involved? Then what is the problem?

My theory, call me crazy by the way, is that males and females (generally, Of course there are exceptions) can reproduce together. That is why a relationship between a M and F is different from a relationship between a M and another M.

Then why can sterile couples get married?

peterquince: Chester Fields:My theory, call me crazy by the way, is that males and females (generally, Of course there are exceptions) can reproduce together. That is why a relationship between a M and F is different from a relationship between a M and another M.

Hey. That's almost an argument.

Now connect how that has ANY relevance in connection to Marriage vs. "Civil Unions."

Go.

Uncle Sam likes couples to reproduce and bring up children in a healthy environment. Therefore, he has created legislation to facilitate this behavior. Like most legislation, it is not perfect.

Why do gays want to call it marriage instead of civil union?

Go.

Chester Fields: Why do gays want to call it marriage instead of civil union?

To have the same rights as heterosexuals.

You still have not answered why couples who cannot have children are allowed to get married if the whole point of marriage is to produce children (which it is not, BTW).

darkyn:

Then why can sterile couples get married?

See above. Imperfect legislation.

An individuals sexuality should be private & personal ( which is why i'm going to flaunt it & rub my gayness all over your face.)

nictamer

What's the point of doing women's studies if you're not gay yourself?

I wish I was gay, I'd pick up as if I were George Clooney.

BTW "women's studies" is a singularly USian concept. Never heard of such a thing here in Europe. At first I thought it meant cooking and housekeeping classes; turns out to be much more useless.

I guess it depends where you are in Europe. The French have a lot of feminist studies departments.

Most bachelor of arts degrees are useless.

You're useless.

darkyn: Chester Fields: Why do gays want to call it marriage instead of civil union?

To have the same rights as heterosexuals.


They do have the same rights. They are free to marry women and reproduce.

Chester Fields: See above. Imperfect legislation.

So you would be in favour of laws passed requiring married couples to have children? Sounds pretty fascist to me.

Chester Fields: They are free to marry women and reproduce.

That idiotic logic didn't work during the defense of the anti-miscegenation laws either.

JohnJacobJingleheimerSchmidt: An individuals sexuality should be private & personal ( which is why i'm going to flaunt it & rub my gayness all over your face.)

"Let's see... Society is continuing to support laws and policy that deny me basic human liberties and legal rights."

"What to do?"

"I know! I'll HIDE so people don't have to acknowledge the fact that I exist!"

darkyn: Chester Fields: See above. Imperfect legislation.

So you would be in favour of laws passed requiring married couples to have children? Sounds pretty fascist to me.

Sure. Marriage is for couples who want to reproduce, i.e. straight couples. Civil Unions are for those (of any sexuality)who just want tax benefits. That way there is no hypocrisy. I'd definitely be in favor of that.

darkyn: Chester Fields: They are free to marry women and reproduce.

That idiotic logic didn't work during the defense of the anti-miscegenation laws either.

That's not the same.

Hideously Gigantic Smurf
"Let's see... Society is continuing to support laws and policy that deny me basic human liberties and legal rights."

"What to do?"

"I know! I'll HIDE so people don't have to acknowledge the fact that I exist!"

But those types of displays are counterproductive.

Making an idiotic spectacle of yourself isn't going to help get anybody take you, or your message, seriously.

And it only promotes gay stereotypes.

/absolutly NOT a homophobe
//hates the Christian right.
///just calling 'em like I see 'em.

Chester Fields: peterquince: Chester Fields:My theory, call me crazy by the way, is that males and females (generally, Of course there are exceptions) can reproduce together. That is why a relationship between a M and F is different from a relationship between a M and another M.

Hey. That's almost an argument.

Now connect how that has ANY relevance in connection to Marriage vs. "Civil Unions."

Go.

Uncle Sam likes couples to reproduce and bring up children in a healthy environment. Therefore, he has created legislation to facilitate this behavior. Like most legislation, it is not perfect.

Why do gays want to call it marriage instead of civil union?

Go.

Here's a combo "Read the thread/QFT":

Let me tell ya a little story. My old boss is gay. He's a crazy fark, but his husband of 6 years is a cool guy. The two of them don't have a ton of money, but they're well off. They have a three year old daughter. She's amazing, but that's beside the point. The point is that even their lawyer still hasn't been able to crack through the legal dramas that would have been immediately resolved with the word marriage.

A couple months ago, partner B (the one who isn't my boss) got mugged while riding his bike along the chicago lakefront. Got his face broken pretty good. My boss takes their daughter (at this point technically only his daughter although they've been raising her together for over a year). Since they didn't have the word 'marriage,' my boss had to explain to his three year old daughter that she couldn't she her other father in the emergency room because the laws weren't fair.

That's why the word is important. People immediately understand what it means. "Partner" does not mean family.

//separate but equal blahblahblah

Chester Fields: Sure. Marriage is for couples who want to reproduce, i.e. straight couples. Civil Unions are for those (of any sexuality)who just want tax benefits. That way there is no hypocrisy. I'd definitely be in favor of that.

I'm sorry, but there is no necessary legal, or logical, connection between marriage and children. People do not need to be married to have children nor do they need to have children to stay married, your extremely narrow definition notwithstanding. Keep in mind that marriage has been more about property than families in the past.

Chester Fields: Marriage is for couples who want to reproduce, i.e. straight couples.

what if they get married but only want to adopt, do you have to call it a civil union?

Chester Fields: That's not the same.

It is exactly the same.

/see, I can do it, too.