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(Some Guy)   A law forcing hospitals to give contraception to rape victims violates religious freedom says Catholic bishop, who doesn't understand why young boys would need it anyway   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 309
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6509 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jun 2007 at 5:38 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-06-24 07:50:39 PM
static.last.fm

If you're so pro-life, do me a favour: don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries.
 
2007-06-24 07:51:21 PM
Drasancas

From a biological point of view, it is a human life. It has the full DNA of a human and will naturally continue to grow/develop to have the other characteristics I'm assuming you're using to define human life in some non-biological way like thought or something right?

I don't give a crap about "potential" life. I don't care about anything people do sexually.

The current definition of human life is farking ridiculous anyway. When it can live outside its mother? So if we get better medical science and we can support a fertilized egg from day 1 will we move it back? And what does "live outside" mean anyway? Can a newborn take care of itself? Leave a 1-month old baby alone in the woods and see how quickly it grows into an adult human.
 
2007-06-24 07:52:21 PM
1984 is Coming

Let me put it another way...

Theres no magic to human life. The moment of birth doesn't magically make a baby a living thing that it wasn't a moment before when in the womb.

and...

Fertilized egg? - Human life

Let's reword the first one...

Theres no magic to human life. The moment of conception doesn't magically make a couple of cells a living thing that it wasn't a moment before when in the womb.

It's nice how your argument for why a fertilized egg is life directly contradicts the logic you used as to why birth doesn't magically make you living.

Now, here's the straight science of it.

A small clump of cells (or just one) does not have:
* A brain.
* A personality
* Memory
* Individuality
* Feelings
* Pain
* Hopes
* Dreams

An actually has quite a few of those. If there's no person to kill, what's the big deal over a clump of non-differentiated cells?
 
2007-06-24 07:57:02 PM
1984 is Coming
Drasancas

From a biological point of view, it is a human life. It has the full DNA of a human and will naturally continue to grow/develop to have the other characteristics

Negative. From a biological point of view, it's a clump of cells that grow. Most cells in the human body do this.

It has the potential to turn into something resembling a human, that functions and operates as a human.

A blueprint does not equate to a building.

I'm assuming you're using to define human life in some non-biological way like thought or something right?

Good guess.

I don't give a crap about "potential" life. I don't care about anything people do sexually.

A fertilized egg is still well within the bounds of potential. There's no guarantee it'll go into term.

The current definition of human life is farking ridiculous anyway. When it can live outside its mother? So if we get better medical science and we can support a fertilized egg from day 1 will we move it back?

Do you understand the wordings "When it can live outside its mother"? That denotes that IT can survive... meaning on its own.

And what does "live outside" mean anyway? Can a newborn take care of itself?

Meaning that if you remove it from inside, it doesn't die due to that (still on its own power).

Leave a 1-month old baby alone in the woods and see how quickly it grows into an adult human.

Right.
 
2007-06-24 07:58:27 PM
Weaver95: I think I'll sit this one out and just report the Farq violations.

Sand: 1. Weaver's vagina: 0.
 
2007-06-24 07:59:49 PM
If you want to practice your relgion, go to church. If you want to practice medicine, go to the hospital. If your religion prohibits you from providing the standard level of medical care, you need to drop either the religion or the medical career. I'm sick of the Muslims who don't want to ring up ham at target, the Christians who don't want to dispense plan b, etc... if you can't do the job, then find a different one. Stop picking jobs that are incompatible with your beliefs, then claiming you're oppressed because you choose not to do them.

Weaver95 Oh good. Another bigotry thread.

I try to play nice with you from time to time, but after the other day when you decided to lump all gays into some vitriolic militant stereotype, I decided you're a bigoted douchebag who occasionally puts together cogent arguments despite himself... now I've come to realize you're a hypocritical bigoted douchebag who occasionally puts together cogent arguments despite himself.
 
2007-06-24 08:00:12 PM
www.ishkur.com

DarthBrooks, Day_Old_Dutchie

Q: Is the Catholic Church likely responsible for screwing up more poeple's sex lives than any other organization on the planet.

Catholic Pop, 2007: appx. 1.1 billion
Muslim Pop, 2007: appx. 1.1 billion

By population size alone, we might think that the effects are relatively equal. However, the Catholic church had an over 600 year head start on Islam.

Finally, Islam is not a hierarchical religion in the manner of the Catholic church, where all power ultimately comes from the Pope who is doing the will of God. Thus, abortion is legal and not uncommon in Turkey, and THE IRANIAN PARLIAMENT PASSED A BILL LEGALIZING ABORTION in 2005. The Iranian bill was denied by the ruling clergy, but still...
 
2007-06-24 08:00:39 PM
Drasancas

My argument is entirely based on biology. YOUR argument is based on religion/philosophy that if you don't have hopes and dreams you're not human. If someone loses their memory I still think they're a human. If someone can't feel pain they can still be a human.

The moment of conception DOES make the cells human, because it is at that moment that two cells containing half the DNA required to make a human merge into a human life consisting of only a few cells.
 
2007-06-24 08:00:41 PM
So let me get this straight.

It's perfectly fine to create babies in any quantity we desire, even if the quality of life degrades into misery and suffering, stricken with poverty and starvation...

But preventing a clump of cells that feels no pain or emotion from entering an existence that's not ready for it.. OH MY GOD! HOW EVIL!

Remember people.. it's quantity of life that matters, not quality.
 
2007-06-24 08:03:17 PM
1984 is Coming

My argument is entirely based on biology. YOUR argument is based on religion/philosophy that if you don't have hopes and dreams you're not human. If someone loses their memory I still think they're a human. If someone can't feel pain they can still be a human.

Negative. That portion of my argument is asking why it matters if a non-thinking clump of cells is eliminated.

Calling it a human life is not biologically correct, seeing how it still needs to be heavily fed and maintained by the human host. The egg doesn't just sit in there by itself independent of the mother.

The moment of conception DOES make the cells human, because it is at that moment that two cells containing half the DNA required to make a human merge into a human life consisting of only a few cells.

Most human cells contain all your DNA. Why are they not human life? Why only when we're talking about an egg? Or is there more prerequisites to 'human life' than having complete DNA?
 
2007-06-24 08:05:30 PM
Fark the Catholic church. As long as a hospital receives public funding, they have to follow the regulations that go with it.

If you want to refuse service to someone who wants contraception, you can either start your own privately-funded hospital, find a different career, or just STFU and give the rape victim the damn Plan B pill. If your religion prevents you from fully serving the public in your job, you shouldn't be working there.
 
2007-06-24 08:06:36 PM
+1 to sublime subby

-5 to weaver95 for the shameless hypocrisy. Never easy to take t but all so willing to dish it out.
 
2007-06-24 08:06:58 PM
What a heathen this "Catholic Bishop" is. Shouldn't we stone her or force her to marry the rapist like the bible says?
 
2007-06-24 08:07:34 PM
Just wanted to chime in and say all of you people using the term "rape baby" are disgusting. I know at least one person, and whether you know it or not, theres a good chance you know someone who was the product of rape. Insinuating that they are somehow dirty or less of a person because of that is pretty sick.

Or maybe you're right, I mean who wants a RAPE BABY around... thats just gross.
 
2007-06-24 08:08:10 PM
Drasancas: Remember people.. it's quantity of life that matters, not quality.

You keep saying that. I'm sure the Chinese will concur with you, after they've overwhelmed us with nearly five to one odds.
 
2007-06-24 08:08:36 PM
Drasancas: Most human cells contain all your DNA.

True. Don't spit on the sidewalk or cut your toenails. Human DNA!
 
2007-06-24 08:11:43 PM
Kiribub: Don't spit on the sidewalk or cut your toenails. Human DNA!

Or take a leak over by that bush on the side of the road. There's DNA in there as well.
 
2007-06-24 08:13:27 PM
I just came in here to say that the headline was really good.

About the topic? I really don't talk about the subject.

Weaver95 Oh good. Another bigotry thread

There is nothing on this planet or in space that will have everyone agreeing with it 100%. There will always be at least one person on an opposing side. And two of the biggest topics that people will always disagree on are politics and religion. The third topic is the PS3 vs the Wii. Now THAT'S a dangerous thread topic.

jmood 2007-06-24 07:18:32 PM

The guy seems like he has two personalities. In one thread he can be the most rational person around, then in another he sounds like a a radical fundamentalist.

You'd be surprise what a topic can do to people's rationale. Usually all it takes is a already touchy subject and someone to push the right button. You can see two sides of people in any subject, be it religion, politics, race, sports, Simpsons, drugs, immigration, etc.

/I try not to be a hypocrite.
//So I hate just everybody.
///Like you or you, but especially YOU.
 
2007-06-24 08:19:39 PM
Weaver95: Abortion issues aside, I'm much more concerned with the government forcing someone (in this case a hospital) to do things that violate their religious beliefs. If you can't see why that's a huge problem, then we really ARE screwed.

It's part of my religion to get millions of dollars from the government. I AM BEING REPRESSED!

I did not fail civics in High School and we spent at least a whole day on this subject. Not sure why you seem to be so uninformed about it.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you are right. Maybe you should look into the subject more.

Laws ALWAYS have taken precedent over religion as long as they don't single out the religion. If not we would live in a theocracy. Which we don't.

Seems to me many on the right get all upset about things our government does because they actually do not understand how our government actually works. Instead they believe it works base on how they want it to work or how some talk show host spins how it works.

Just because you don't think it's fair does not mean thats how the law works.

The Best example is that we have a "Common law" form of law. Not a "Civic law" but if you were to ask people on the right to describe how our justice system worked they would explain the wrong one.

Ignorance is just being wrong, not an alternative opinion.
 
2007-06-24 08:20:18 PM
Opps meant "civil law" above
 
2007-06-24 08:20:19 PM
ah, a human egg is a separate person because it's DNA is different from its mothers, and given time it may develop into a fully functional human. It's still human though, unless you add all sorts of bullshiat to the mix to say its not. Thats why a Miscarriage is a tragedy, and not written off as tuesday. Same with why if you kill a pregnant woman you are charged with two deaths and not just one.

Now, that aside, abortion should be allowed in some cases, but I don't think "I just don't feel like having it" or "didn't want to use contraceptives" counts as a viable excuse. Personal Responsibility yo.

I would adopt if I thought I could support the child, but I have a hard enough time taking care of myself.

As for Rape victems? As someone whos family has experienced having a member raped, I'd say any hospital that refused to give contraceptives should have the doctors and admins responsible beaten quite soundly before being tossed in jail on charges of accessory to rape.

And before anyone gives me shiat, know that the doctors recommended my abortion because of health risks to my mother. she frankly felt the way I do, hence why i'm able to post here.

Oddly, i'm still supportive of abortion in limited circumstance, one of them being medical dangers. Who's a thunk it?
 
2007-06-24 08:20:49 PM
WTF!? What does religion have to do with this? Nothing, not a goddamn thing. It's about Personal Sovereignty. With very few exceptions (such as a threat to others) you can neither compel someone to do something, nor stop them from doing something.

But that's not even what the fark it's about. It's about a church afraid that doctors might have to fulfill their oath and take care of people instead of doing the church's bidding and enforcing the church's farking dogma.

That's some Divinely Inspired Morality right there isn't it? Farking asshats.

\biatch over
\\sorry
 
2007-06-24 08:22:27 PM
Unrelated to the rightness or wrongness of abortion or plan b or whatever...

It seems to me that we, as a society in general, are far better off with a doctor/nurse/pharmacist who won't give abortion drugs than to not have that person at all. Don't we have a massive shortage of nurses right now? And doctors aren't exactly in high supply relative to demand.
 
2007-06-24 08:27:10 PM
Antimatter

Now, that aside, abortion should be allowed in some cases, but I don't think "I just don't feel like having it" or "didn't want to use contraceptives" counts as a viable excuse. Personal Responsibility yo.

When are you and people who think like you going to get it into your heads that what any individual woman does with her reproductive organs is not any of your, or the State's, motherfarking goddamn business? A woman who wants an abortion doesn't want a child, and you don't have a damn thing to say about it.

MYOB.
 
2007-06-24 08:27:46 PM
1984 is Coming

It seems to me that we, as a society in general, are far better off with a doctor/nurse/pharmacist who won't give abortion drugs than to not have that person at all.

Why? We're not exactly having a shortage of humans right now. In fact, we're having the opposite problem. HAving that one more person is one more mouth to feed, and water... one more job to come up with.. another strain on an already strained civilization that can't possibly, in its current state, sustain itself in the long run.

No. It's far better off to make sure that we only have that person if we can actually support it properly. That's the moral thing to do.

Don't we have a massive shortage of nurses right now? And doctors aren't exactly in high supply relative to demand.

There are plenty of people looking for jobs right now... who exist right now. Maybe we should work on that educational system first before overloading the population some more.
 
2007-06-24 08:29:59 PM
Drasancas: There are plenty of people looking for jobs right now... who exist right now. Maybe we should work on that educational system first before overloading the population some more.

Always room in the military. You know, the apparatus that is being asked the fight nearly five to one odds against the People's Republic of China?
 
2007-06-24 08:31:43 PM
FTFA: The bishops in this heavily Catholic but pro-choice state say the legislation, already signed into law by the Republican governor, could force Connecticut's four Catholic hospitals to perform what they consider chemical abortions

All must be subject equally before the law for constitutionality. The Lemon Test is easily satisfied by the law.

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
 
2007-06-24 08:32:52 PM
Antimatter
Now, that aside, abortion should be allowed in some cases, but I don't think "I just don't feel like having it" or "didn't want to use contraceptives" counts as a viable excuse. Personal Responsibility yo.

You believe in abortions for women in medical danger or in cases of rape, but not as birth control, and I agree with you. However, I don't think this can (or should) be legally mandated because it would require writing a law that would say exactly what constitutes a legal abortion and exactly what constitutes an illegal abortion. I don't want some politician reviewing my personal medical records or personal life in order to decide whether I should have an abortion or whether I should be thrown in jail for it. So, ultimately, it is a privacy issue. Because no should make a decision, like in your mother's case, for a woman, it should be legal for her to make her own decision.
 
2007-06-24 08:36:30 PM
Antimatter

ah, a human egg is a separate person because it's DNA is different from its mothers,

Okay, so thinking, being sentient, having a history... none of that matters.. the only thing that is required to qualify as a genuine seperate real person... is to have a different set of blueprints... not.

A blueprint does not equate to a building.

and given time it may develop into a fully functional human.

Given time, an acorn may turn into a tree. That doesn't make acorn==tree.

It's still human though,

My hair is human.

unless you add all sorts of bullshiat to the mix to say its not.

Bullshiat like facts and logic? Care to point out what doesn't work?

Thats why a Miscarriage is a tragedy, and not written off as tuesday.

Why is it a tragedy? Someone's emotional outburst does not a tragedy make. We're wired for the emotion, but making another baby is pretty easy... hardly a tragedy.

Same with why if you kill a pregnant woman you are charged with two deaths and not just one.

I can't say that one makes much sense to me. If it's a late-term stage, then maybe.

Now, that aside, abortion should be allowed in some cases, but I don't think "I just don't feel like having it" or "didn't want to use contraceptives" counts as a viable excuse. Personal Responsibility yo.

Abortion IS taking responsibility for one's actions. "Taking responsibility" does not equate to "punishing the parent by forcing the parent to have a child that the parent either does not want, or can provide for."

I would adopt if I thought I could support the child, but I have a hard enough time taking care of myself.

Here's a clue. Most people hold that attitude. It's not like we have infinite spots open for adoption. Adoption can also lead to emotional issues, and is not the best alternative either.

And before anyone gives me shiat, know that the doctors recommended my abortion because of health risks to my mother. she frankly felt the way I do, hence why i'm able to post here.

My mother was confronted with the same issue with me. If she chose to do so, I wouldn't be here... but then again, I wouldn't have cared. I've never gotten this emotional argument.

The fact is, I'm here. I might not have been here. So what? Parallel universes without me in them... OH NO!
 
2007-06-24 08:37:59 PM
Comrade438

Always room in the military. You know, the apparatus that is being asked the fight nearly five to one odds against the People's Republic of China?

Maybe if the military completely threw out all its standards, all those people would get in.
 
2007-06-24 08:40:03 PM
Drasancas: Bullshiat like facts and logic? Care to point out what doesn't work?

Your "logic" is crap. I'll show you why.

Is an abortion interrupting the natural life cycle of the species homo sapiens?
 
2007-06-24 08:40:26 PM
Oh, Antimatter I almost forgot,

Thats why a Miscarriage is a tragedy, and not written off as tuesday.

So, if we pass a law to make any or all abortions legal, and I come into the hospital after a miscarriage, are the hospital and police going to have to investigate my medical and personal life? I think not.
 
2007-06-24 08:40:50 PM
seriously, If you were raped, Why would you go to a Catholic hospital to get an abortion to begin with?

its kind of like going to a Muslim Butcher* and trying to get a rack of pork ribs.



*not the ones we see on TV all the time cutting heads off of infidel, but one that actually cuts meat off of cattle
 
2007-06-24 08:41:56 PM
I don't know whether or not a fertilized egg or a fetus possesses that quality we call "human life". Perhaps it does. There is one thing, however, that it does not possess - and that is the unconditional right to live any portion of that life inside the body of another human being who does not wish it so. Nothing that you may posit regarding the "human status" of a fetus has any bearing or diminishing effect upon the human status of a female human being. And the "human status" of a female human being forbids her being used as a incubator contrary to her own will and desire.
 
2007-06-24 08:42:02 PM
You folks need to quit arguing that Plan B isn't abortion. It's irrelevant.

Nature


Contraception is wrong because it's a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God's gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end-procreation.


I don't agree with it, and I don't like the fact that hospitals are able to discriminate to this extent. It's just another of the many reasons that I no longer participate in the Catholic church.
 
2007-06-24 08:42:13 PM
This discussion again?!

Here's the list of every hospital in Connecticut.

Please note that there's only four Catholic hospitals in Connecticut out of 30-something, and in every community where there's a St. Whoever's where they might get a little touchy about Plan B and so forth...there's another hospital, too.

It's not like we're dealing with heart attacks here, so send the ambulance to the other hospital in town, chrissakes. Is that so hard?

Seeing as we're dealing with the health-care industry, two camps of activists who could give fark-all about the victims long as the fundraising numbers are juicy, and a state legislature that escapes being a punchline because of their proximity to the legendary state-government cesspools of New York, Massachusetts and New Jersey...it probably is.
 
2007-06-24 08:42:17 PM
1984 is Coming: Unrelated to the rightness or wrongness of abortion or plan b or whatever...

It seems to me that we, as a society in general, are far better off with a doctor/nurse/pharmacist who won't give abortion drugs than to not have that person at all. Don't we have a massive shortage of nurses right now? And doctors aren't exactly in high supply relative to demand.


If college education weren't so farking expensive, we probably wouldn't be having that problem. Not to mention our health care system is pretty farked up as is.

Your statement reminds me of that one politician who was biatching about how all the abortions could have grown up to be in the military a while back. Just because it has the potential to develop does not mean that a clump of cells is a human being at that point (at least in my view). Besides, who are you to assume that every conception is going to be a productive member of society? Have you considered that there may be a chance of the unwanted fetus becoming a leech off of society?
 
2007-06-24 08:43:02 PM
Molavian

Your "logic" is crap. I'll show you why.

Is an abortion interrupting the natural life cycle of the species homo sapiens?


Yes. And...?

Crushing an acorn interrupts the natural life cycle of a tree. You didn't kill a tree.
 
2007-06-24 08:44:03 PM
Since its no farking body else's business, the bishops should STFU, DIAF, GBTW.

The bishops are going against official Catholic policy, which requires Catholic hospitals to give EC to rape victims.
 
2007-06-24 08:45:20 PM
Drasancas

So for you, when does life begin? Because with everything you're saying, I'm pretty sure I could go kill a bunch of infants, toddlers and preschoolers without killing any human lives.

And as for the "abortion is good because it prevents overpopulation" well so does genocide, mass sterilization, and having a life of celibacy. All three of those suck pretty bad.
 
2007-06-24 08:45:20 PM
Crash_Test_Dhimmi

Nice troll with the butcher reference, but that's not exactly what this story is saying. These hospitals are sometimes the only ones available, and if you've been picked up by the police and taken to the nearest hospital after reporting a rape, you are not always in the best emotional state to be asking for a non-catholic hospital.

These hospitals aren't even offering Plan B, which is what the bill would do. They're not forcing anyone to abort anything. The hospitals themselves use the argument that if you want Plan B as an option, you should just walk to the next hospital, but I remember a story from about a year ago where someone charted the distance to a hospital in Connecticut or Pennsylvania (can't remember which) and found that from one city a person would have to travel 45 miles to get to a hospital that would offer them Plan B. That's convenient.
 
2007-06-24 08:47:19 PM
it would require writing a law that would say exactly what constitutes a legal abortion and exactly what constitutes an illegal abortion.

The law does that for killing a person who's already been born (self defense, executions, assisted suidice in Oregon). In fact, in most states it makes those distinctions for unborn children (restrictions in later trimesters, two counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman, etc.)
 
2007-06-24 08:48:10 PM
Drasancas: Yes. And...?

Good. Now, in your opinion, at which point does the termination of the life cycle of homo sapiens become "wrong" from an ethical stance, and why?

Crushing an acorn interrupts the natural life cycle of a tree. You didn't kill a tree.

Let's keep on track.
 
2007-06-24 08:49:11 PM
Alright, so I mis-remembered, it's 45 minutes not 45 miles.

Doesn't Pop
 
2007-06-24 08:49:46 PM
I am facing a hysterectomy due to medical reasons, i.e.: If I keep my uterus, it will kill me, even though my problem is not cancer.

I did some research on it, and the article on Wikipedia on hysterectomy has been written by some anti-abortion women are only good for being incubators and anything including severely impeding a woman's entire quality of life should be done to avoid making her infertile, Amen, person... Speaking of the whole: Women are incubators designed to produce the next generation, no matter what they might want.

On a side note, if I was going to remain fertile, and I was raped, and I was denied: Antibiotics, Plan B, even possibly an abortion, anti-virals, a rape kit, the opportunity to charge my rapist, or anything else that I needed post-fact, I would raise hell, to put it mildly.

To deny Plan B because you're an extremist Catholic, (and I am Catholic) is like a Jehovah's Witness doctor denying a patient a blood transfusion when they needed one. (and I am sure that does not happen) Insanity... Completely, and utterly. If it conflicts with your faith, find another profession, moran... I am sure one can order pork chops at the Jewish Hospital where the TB Dickwad is being held.
 
2007-06-24 08:51:16 PM
Bestbank Tiger
In fact, in most states it makes those distinctions for unborn children

It's simple to make these restrictions for time, but what I'm saying is when the doctor tells me that I have a 30% risk of death if I carry a pregnancy to term, is that high enough? Or can I only have the procedure if it's a 40% risk of death? That's not a choice I want the government to make for me.
 
2007-06-24 08:51:36 PM
1984 is Coming
I feel obliged to mention (from a quick google search) that implantation rates for IVF hover somewhere around 20% or so. Now I'd imagine naturally the rate is somewhat higher, but all the same the overall failed implantation rate is probably pretty high. All you'd see from it is your period happening as normal, completely unaware that there was a fertilized clump of cells mixed in with it.

All this pill does is make it more certain that implantation won't happen.

Well that's not *all*, it can also prevent the fertilization of the egg in the first place. But even at that the Catholic church doesn't believe in contraception at all is my understanding.
 
2007-06-24 08:53:30 PM
1984 is Coming

So for you, when does life begin? Because with everything you're saying, I'm pretty sure I could go kill a bunch of infants, toddlers and preschoolers without killing any human lives.

I'm curious how you come to that conclusion. I've spent the last hour or so distinguishing between a tiny clump of cells and a thinking and feeling, operating human individual.

When does life begin? It began a few billion years ago. The question to me is somewhat irrelevant. It's what you're killing that matters... a thinking/sentient being, or a small clump of stem cells...

And as for the "abortion is good because it prevents overpopulation" well so does genocide, mass sterilization, and having a life of celibacy. All three of those suck pretty bad.

Abortion (up to a point) doesn't kill any people. Contraceptives are also an alternative.

Because some alternatives suck, that would help elevate a problem, doesn't invalidate the inherent problem. When we should be doing everything we can do (within reason), to east global-overpopulation... turning a blind eye to one of the easier and less nasty solutions because the other options suck worse doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense.
 
2007-06-24 08:54:27 PM
Crash_Test_Dhimmi: Why would you go to a Catholic hospital to get an abortion to begin with?...its kind of like going to a Muslim butcher and trying to get a rack of pork ribs

Actually. many butchers who are Muslims do sell pork. Its haram to eat, but not to kill and butcher. You wouldn't find it a halal store, but that's just because there would be no market for it. I know you're obsessed with what you think is Islam, but it doesn't have to do with every other topic in the world all the time.
 
2007-06-24 08:57:25 PM
Clarification:

When I said "It seems to me that we, as a society in general, are far better off with a doctor/nurse/pharmacist who won't give abortion drugs than to not have that person at all"

I wasn't talking about not having the baby. I was talking about the doctor/nurse not being allowed to practice because of their beliefs. People are saying you shouldn't be a doctor if you won't give abortions. I was saying society is better with a no-abortions doctor than no doctor at all.
 
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