Exactly. Hold the people responsible for whatever responsible.

Those cars are pretty ugly. Maybe they should look into that.

You see, the Japanese have this thing called "shame." It is a concept alien to many American minds, especially corporate executives.

The leadership of GM, Ford et al is experiencing something royalty in the middle ages was quite painfully familiar with: Incest breeding retarded monarchs. That's essentially what's happened to their leadership, just on a metaphorical level rather than literally strapping execs and CEOs to their boardroom chairs while they shiat themselves. They're made up of a crop of people who really haven't had to do a hell of a lot to earn their positions.

In other words, they're commanded by a group of people so removed from the real world that they make profoundly stupid decisions. When Oldsmobile employees weren't buying Oldsmobiles even at huge employee discounts, the company didn't take this as free feedback: Instead, they just banned employees from using employee parking lots if they drove any other brand of vehicle.

Only now are they even starting to realize that the idea of building huge gas guzzlers that aren't good for much of anything (like the H2; they attempted to rectify this somewhat with the H3) that are made to inferior standards outside the country is driving people away to foreign manufacturers who build quality, efficient "imports" inside the country. Yes, things are so farked with outsourcing that if you actually want to buy American (or Canadian), you should buy a Toyota.

Cut off the corporate welfare and let 'em fend for themselves, I say. If they shut down I'm sure Honda, Nissan, Toyota et al would be more than happy to snap up the trained workers and retool plants for their own use. Everyone wins.

/3 AM logic
//g'night

Far be it from me, but this article says *nothing* at all about GM.

strangely, this makes me want to buy a nissan. But im not going to.

Cid_Highwind: The leadership of GM, Ford et al is experiencing something royalty in the middle ages was quite painfully familiar with: Incest breeding retarded monarchs. That's essentially what's happened to their leadership, just on a metaphorical level rather than literally strapping execs and CEOs to their boardroom chairs while they shiat themselves. They're made up of a crop of people who really haven't had to do a hell of a lot to earn their positions.

In other words, they're commanded by a group of people so removed from the real world that they make profoundly stupid decisions. When Oldsmobile employees weren't buying Oldsmobiles even at huge employee discounts, the company didn't take this as free feedback: Instead, they just banned employees from using employee parking lots if they drove any other brand of vehicle.

Only now are they even starting to realize that the idea of building huge gas guzzlers that aren't good for much of anything (like the H2; they attempted to rectify this somewhat with the H3) that are made to inferior standards outside the country is driving people away to foreign manufacturers who build quality, efficient "imports" inside the country. Yes, things are so farked with outsourcing that if you actually want to buy American (or Canadian), you should buy a Toyota.

Cut off the corporate welfare and let 'em fend for themselves, I say. If they shut down I'm sure Honda, Nissan, Toyota et al would be more than happy to snap up the trained workers and retool plants for their own use. Everyone wins.

just wish we'd build a car to last more than the 3-5 years that they are today... it was the same thing in the eighties. we build nice comfortable cars, that are over priced and too expensive to maintain.

As a general comment on the subject:

I love the way American (and Australian, for that matter) CEOs (and the defenders of their huge packages) take all the credit for high profits saying it's all to do with "their performance and hard work".

Bullshiat.

If a particular market is doing very well, you could have a Magic 8 Ball running the company and it will still turn a profit.

But that's not what gets me. What gets me is when the market turns around, the company tanks, and they STILL get their golded parachutes, yet this time they get to blame it on "the market" and take little or no flak for it. Err, why? WTF? Why don't these people accept that these things go both ways?

I like the Japanese corporate culture. At least they take some farking responsibility. You make great profits for the company, great, have a bonus of a few million that year. You drive the company into the ground and leave thousands of employees financially ruined....that's a ritual suicide.

High responsibility should come with high consequences....from BOTH ENDS...not just one.

/rant off

Actually I think Nissan makes wonderful cars, and I am glad to see that they have responsible leadership.

I don't own a Nissan, but ever since they were Datsun in the past, they have made competent cars. As a lover of the 25-30k sports car range, I think that the 350Z is one of the most attractive cars in the field. The CVT in use in their Infinity cars is also rather innovative.

Good. We don't need a domestic auto industry, or a foreign one, either. The personal automobile is a social, economic, and environmental disaster - it needs to be largely eliminated, and will be - by market forces, if not by responsible action. It's like the gas price "debate" - all the whining and biatching and victimization in the world won't forestall the inevitable.

The leadership of GM, Ford et al is experiencing something royalty in the middle ages was quite painfully familiar with: Incest breeding retarded monarchs. That's essentially what's happened to their leadership, just on a metaphorical level rather than literally strapping execs and CEOs to their boardroom chairs while they shiat themselves. They're made up of a crop of people who really haven't had to do a hell of a lot to earn their positions.

This not only happens in the auto industry...but in all big businesses in the US. After seeing "Sicko" & the debacle we see for government in the US...this country is no longer the dream it has been in the past...especially if you're poor & have trouble making it from day to day with whatever job you can find. When you have business leaders with no shame or conscience in running their businesses then becoming government leaders...you have exactly what this government has become. Only when you have business leaders who have had to struggle with making ends meet on a day by day basis will you have true change from being led by those who have no idea what it is to suffer at the hands of those born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

The personal automobile is a social, economic, and environmental disaster - it needs to be largely eliminated, and will be - by market forces, if not by responsible action.

This would be a great dream...except for many parts of the US...if you don't have access to an automobile...you don't work or am able to do anything. For instance...out where I live...they do have limited mass transit. Any time after 6 PM during the week & all weekend long...you will not be able to get anywhere. If you live outside the city limits & across the state line less than 1/2 mile from my home...no automobile...no way to work or do anything else...especially since most towns in this area are separated by at least 20 miles.

Let me guess: Nissan is not a Western corporation, right?

About farking time some automakers got some farking sense.

My advice is to get the Skyline over here pronto. And a new Silvia. And how about releasing the R34 here too? Japanese manufacturers continue to produce "old" car models years after they are are "discontinued." Same could be done here. Once the Skyline hits these shores, GM really should be worried, because there will be an import that will make all their 'Vettes and Camaros look very poor indeed.

phoobarnvaz

Exactly, the people that dream of a society like the EU here in the states always seem to forget that we are still 99% wide open space. We've been in settlement for just over 400 years. Europe has about a 4000 year head start on eating up the land with settlement, and they are about 2/3 the size. Same thing with broadband penetration too much space, hell there are towns inside of 40 miles from DC that still lack indoor plumbing.

On the topic of the thread, American cars get a bad rap. I've owned 4 total and have 2 currently. All had/have well over 100,000 miles with no major issues. No you can't drive a pushrod V-8 10,000 miles without an oil change like you can the DOHC 1.2 liter in your Honda. But with proper maintenance at about $30 a pop it'll go for a long time. But yes GM execs do have their heads way up their asses when it comes to making decisions regarding how the company is run.

jso2897: The personal automobile is a social, economic, and environmental disaster

If there was some sort of functioning government I would agree because there would be an alternative called mass transportation. There are only a few cities that have a good system in place. Most cities don't currently have a functioning version of it. The bus that goes from my town to Durham runs a couple times per day. That's it. I can't say that it is really functioning if it doesn't meet the needs of the people. Of course you could move closer, but it is exponentially more expensive to live closer. Kind of a catch 22.

American cars get a bad rap.

And for good reason. I drove a 92 Toyota 4x4 (made in USA BTW) past 330,000 miles. Eventually it was running on 3 cylinders. Eventually it started over heating on me too often so I donated it. I'm not saying American companies dont make SOME decent cars but if you don't do your research, your taking a big chance. Foreign companies are taking over for a reason, they make better cars overall.

BwaaAAhHAAAaaa!

OMFG! What a great spoof article!

senior executives "took responsibility" Holy Farking Shiat! Hilarious! Awesome stuff... I can't stop laughing!

"We are taking our responsibility seriously," he said of the management's decision to forego their bonuses.

PLEASE!!! Stop before I have a heart attack!

(gasping, lights bong)

Oh my God! Can you imagine the uncontrollable spastic laughter echoing through the upper levels of GM and Ford as they read this crap!

Holy Jeebuz! What's next?

Corporate responsibility in America??

A pay cut? BWAHHaaHaaHaa!!!

Snarf, I gotta go to bed...

Graveyard coming up on the left. Whistle REAL LOUD, guys!
You can yap about "rural space" all you want. 99% of people who "need" a car are people who have put themselves in that position. And anyway, no technology ever completely disappears. There will always be personal automobiles - but they are going to go back to being the rarity they once were.
And understand that I am not suggesting some bunch of tree-hugger nazi laws. I am merely pointing out that this is GOING to happen. One way or another - and while others of different leanings might disagree, I would just as soon let the market take care of it. Let the government stop subsidizing the petroleum industry (including waging wars to secure it's supply lines) and then let's see how much longer people choose to drive every where. And there is no substitute. To go electric with the amount of automobile usage we have today would involve paving the nation with nuclear plants - we don't have a fraction of the juice available to power our fleet. Ethanol, biodiesel? Jokes. Don't make me laugh.
Bottom line, my fellow Americans - we gonna have to change the way we live. I know you don't like it - but you know what? We made it through the great depression, and we can make it through this (if a few generations of affluence haven't softened us to the point that we are incapable of re-assuming our adulthood).
I know you are going to squawk and biatch and rationalize up a storm. But it won't change anything. If you are smart, you will adapt to the coming future. If you are stupid, you will deny and go crying to government for a "solution" - meaning some impossible way you can go on living wastefully in perpetuity. You cannot, and if you think you can, there is a word for you, and the word is "fool".

Glitchworks
My advice is to get the Skyline over here pronto. 2008 as a 2009 model. It'll be called the GT-R (not skyline).

And a new Silvia. And how about releasing the R34 here too? The R34 is farking old, has dated styling, hasn't been produced since 2002 or 2003, and can't be fitted with left-hand drive without significant redesign. Plus I think it cost the equivalent of $90k USD. They wouldn't be able to sell it.

Once the Skyline hits these shores, GM really should be worried, because there will be an import that will make all their 'Vettes and Camaros look very poor indeed.

No. It'll beat the Camaro, but that'll be a 20-30k car. The GT-R almost certainly won't beat a Z06 or a Viper, which are more in its price range (the GT-R is going to run $75k+).


I'm not an American car fanboy (my next car will probably be an Evo X). But the Skyline--while a good car--is not as dominant as Gran Turismo has made given it credit for.

Oh, and this "taking responsibility" thing sounds a whole lot like "the Board spanked management by denying them bonuses."

DoBeDoBeDo: hell there are towns inside of 40 miles from DC that still lack indoor plumbing.

Really? Name them.

jso2897: You can yap about "rural space" all you want. 99% of people who "need" a car are people who have put themselves in that position.

I think your pulling numbers out of your arse here pal. If we had good public transportation, and if people used it I don't think 99% of the cars would go away.

Some areas do have rural public transportation. New castle PA, the bus line runs out to New Wilmington, Volant, and surrounding areas. Try getting anyone to use it though

aerojockey I think he's saying cars will be replaced by Mr. Garrison's gyroscope-powered monowheel.

DoBeDoBeDo

Exactly, the people that dream of a society like the EU here in the states always seem to forget that we are still 99% wide open space. We've been in settlement for just over 400 years. Europe has about a 4000 year head start on eating up the land with settlement, and they are about 2/3 the size. Same thing with broadband penetration too much space, hell there are towns inside of 40 miles from DC that still lack indoor plumbing.

It's not that I disagree with your point entirely, it's just that I think some of this is a bit of a bad excuse and a cop-out.

Thing is, that difference (400 years versus 4,000) years, is not really all that significant considering highly car-dependent culture based on suburban sprawl only really started in the 1950s.

You do have a point in that people in the US are socially connected over greater distances, but there really is no reason why 90% of the current trips that are made by car within cities couldn't be done by public transport, in as little as 20 years from now, with the right adjustments to policy and town planning. I don't have actual stats on the subject, but I'd be surprised if anything less than 80%+ of private car use is just within quite local contexts - commuting from suburbs into the city, driving kids to/from school, driving to the supermarket, etc. Most of that can be eliminated by better planned public transport networks and sensibly layed-out communities, relatively quickly at that.

The great misunderstanding in this debate is that us "anti-car-dependecy people" think ALL private car use should be completely done away with. I don't think too many people (except the very extreme purists and the insane) really think like that. But the fact is, a lot of private car use right now if extremely frivolous. And I don't even blame the people who do it as such. If you grew up in a very car-dependent, spread out city, it's hard to understand how things could work any other way.

But a slow adjustment to a less car-dependent lifestyle is far from impossible. I've seen it done to some extent here in Australia. A lot of the cities have de-suburbanised to some extent in the last 15 years or so. There is now a sizeable population in the inner areas of Sydney and Melbourne who don't rely on cars much at all. Many don't even own one. It's quite possible to re-plan cities over time to actually be a lot like what European cities are today. It just takes some time, and good city planning.

Cid_Highwind: The leadership of GM, Ford et al is experiencing something royalty in the middle ages was quite painfully familiar with: Incest breeding retarded monarchs. That's essentially what's happened to their leadership, just on a metaphorical level rather than literally strapping execs and CEOs to their boardroom chairs while they shiat themselves. They're made up of a crop of people who really haven't had to do a hell of a lot to earn their positions.

Spoiled-Brat Baby-Boomers. You know them better as "neocons".

Prime examples are the unfortunately running not just corporations but governments, too. (Pretty much all those "G8" idiots in their fancy suits)

On the topic of the thread, American cars get a bad rap. I've owned 4 total and have 2 currently. All had/have well over 100,000 miles with no major issues. No you can't drive a pushrod V-8 10,000 miles without an oil change like you can the DOHC 1.2 liter in your Honda. But with proper maintenance at about $30 a pop it'll go for a long time. But yes GM execs do have their heads way up their asses when it comes to making decisions regarding how the company is run.

I've had better luck with "domestic" cars then the Japanese cars I've had. They've been much cheaper to maintain. Sure, sometimes a piece of trim falls off or something but all in all my domestic cars have been great. My 96 GMC has 240,000 miles and is still going strong.

Do I think it's because of superior management? Hell no. The government and big business in this country have only 1 rule left. The rule is take care of your own and to hell with everybody else.

I see the statistic 99% tossed around a bunch.


Did you know that 99% of American auto executives are greedy thieving bastards with no concept of how to run a business?

Hate to be the one to break it to jso2897 but America has always had (after the war not the British colonies time) some form of personal vehicle, it has gone by different names but it is the same thing. There were carriages (limos), Coaches (SUV), Horse and buggy/cart/wagon (family sedan), and then just a horse (motorcycle).

It changed thanks to the Industrial Revolution, so who the hell knows what is going to be available in the next hundred years.

HeadbangerSmurf

Why do you hate america so much, terrorist?

They'll still be getting a years supply of

Deadite: Of course. But that's a different subject. I'm talking about what we conventionally regard as an automobile - a spacious, comfortable, often very fast and energy-greedy vehicle. That, I am pretty much convinced, we will mostly have to bid goodbye.
Note: I was living in Topanga Canyon, a small community in the Santa Monica Mountains, when the crunch hit in the seventies - and a lot of people did go back to using horses. They put up a hitch in the Center, so many people were coming on horseback. One guy even did a morning run in a buggy up and down Old canyon, giving his neighbors lifts to and from the Center.
But the seventies was just practice. I really do believe that this next one is going to be for real. Look, I realize that I am predicting the future, and by definition am probably wrong in some detail or other. But I can count, and do simple arithmetic. I mean, shiat, people. Nothing lasts for ever. Nothing persists as it has "always" been, and if human history teaches us any lessons, it ought to be that.

'I see the statistic 99% tossed around a bunch.


'98% of statistics are made up on the spot'

jso2897: and a lot of people did go back to using horses.

Great. What's the daily range of a horse? 20 miles at best?

You could give everybody Segways and it would cost less if the land is flat, and there would be less shiat around.

dittybopper: I am saddened to hear of your situation. In another decade or so, if you haven't changed your lifestyle, it's probably really going to suck to be you.

Nashbridges: They don't call that place Topanga CANYON because the land there is flat.

dittybopper Also, you don't seem to realize that outside of urban areas, public transportation simply doesn't exist.

This is not entirely true in my area, but if I were to take the busses (plural) to travel the 6 miles to my office, it would take me almost an hour. This is because I would have to travel several miles out of my way to find a bus that gets anywhere near where I live and where I work.

And if I ever need to get out into the field, which I occasionally do as part fo my job, I would be in a rather tight spot.


Gameshot911 Why do you hate america so much, terrorist?

I'm willing to bet that HeadbangerSmurf's Volkswagen and Nissan were built using more American parts and labor* than your average "American Brand" vehicle.

And capitalize "America" you commie traitor.
=Smidge=

/* 'cept maybe the Volkswagen... probably made in Puebla, Mexico
//Owns a Volkswagen. Neener neener.

Smidge204

You could always take a bicycle on the days you don't have to do site visits.

I'm not crazy enough to advocate for completely car-free existence in non-metropolitan areas because it's simply not feasible, but you can do things in moderation.

They don't call that place Topanga CANYON because the land there is flat.

That's why I stipulated the land had to be flat, if you were suggesting horseback riding could supplant the automobile elsewhere.

jso2897 So are you saying we are going to run out of gas? They have been saying that for a long time. The internal combustion engine can run on things other than fossil fuel. And no one said it would last forever. In ten years what will be so different?

jso2897: dittybopper: I am saddened to hear of your situation. In another decade or so, if you haven't changed your lifestyle, it's probably really going to suck to be you.

+1 my friend, I think we have all witnessed the most clever troll of all time...

senior executives "took responsibility" for its disappointing performance.

What? Responsibility? Couldn't they find a union to blame the company's poor performance on? These guys aren't trying very hard.

Its called Honor. We can all learn from that.

tehvodak: Buddy, I'm not trying to troll anybody. If people need to tell themselves that their lives can continue unchanged in the future, that's what they should tell themselves. The chances are that things will be OK for any particular individual, anyway. We can get by with a lot less wasted energy, and only the truly stubborn and inflexible will really get screwed. Like I said, if we could live through the depression, we can live through this - the chances are it won't be anywhere near as bad. All we really have to do is find ways to live that don't waste as much energy. Once the delusions that the oil isn't going to run out, or that we can find "substitutes" that we can waste as profligately as we have wasted oil are discarded, it's not such a devestatingly hard problem.
I got a little caught up in the talk here - I originally only intended to mention it in passing. I think people are overly concerned about the demise of the American car industry. I don't think the automobile industry is going to be the economic lynch-pin in the future that it has been in the past. I think that cars are going to get smaller, cheaper, less enjoyable to drive and, ultimately, less common. We need to worry about building the industries of the future, not preserving the industries of the past.