I don't know if immigration in the US can be controlled, the INS is doing a shiat job of it. I don't think immigration should be controlled, Europe is real good about controlling it's immigrant popullation, it's like Southern America durring the segregation years. "You muslims stay in your community and go to your own school and we don't even have to aknowelege that you exist, in fact we'll look the other way when you kill your women and yourselves and publically enforce sharia law".

INS should get disbanded and someonething new should be made up for better security. If someone's messing up your neighborhood, call the City Council.

Podzdorf you are a complete idiot if you believe that. Use Google instead of Newsmax.

Thanks Joseppi ... i was going to make the exact same point.
I'm not saying immigration's great, open the floodgates, let them in, I'm saying What The Hell Kind Of Point Were You Trying To Make by bringing in some random anecdote?

Oh, and Nicepants you just got 2 bonus ignorance points for saying the great indians/pakistanis are probably "the americanized ones" .... way to respect different cultures!

Joseppi7 - what are you talking about? I've never used Newsmax, and exactly for what?

Podzdorf, interesting side-note that kind of helps put things in perspective:

The INS was not created to limit immigration or enforce quotas or even track people coming in on visas. There job was more of a service to process people in. They've never done a very good job of enforcement because they weren't designed as a security agency. Hopefully the homeland security efforts will change things around.

I thought it was interesting when the Feds were talking about National ID cards. Lots of people were upset that they wanted to give us the ID cards and not the aliens. No one ever came out and stated the true reason behind giving us the cards; NO ONE KNOWS WHO IS A CITIZEN! They can't give the ID cards to the aliens because there is no way to easily know who they are.

Sure, you can say the US accounts for 30% of the world's pollution.. but the US only contains about 5% of the world's population...

If you cut the fossil fuel dependance, you'll improve this statistic, and be able to improve your national security... the only limit is money. Unfortunately, money is more important than health or security.

*dangles SUV keys* I'm a red-blooded, freedom-loving American and I'm not going to let some damn pinko commie bastards called the UN take over my country! Why those sonuvabiatches; whoever started those farkwads should be shot! I don't get why they want to take away our freedoms and subject us to tyrranny, then take away my guns and *sobs* my SUV so I can seem that I have a bigger dick!

Roboplege - The Indians and Pakistanis I know are great people, even the un-americanized ones. The problem is there is no proper definition for americanized, I'd probably best associate it with open minded consumers or such. Americanized has nothing to do with disregarding your culture, unless it's a backwards culture, such as fundamental islam or such.

*bows*

Just for reference.

You don't count oceans when you're counting water supplies. You can't -drink- ocean water. Desalinization plants are a hell of a lot more expensive than just keeping the ground water clean in the first place.

TellarHK - I did not count them, the drinking water supply is fine... there are some green nuts who argue that the world's OCEANS are polluted beyond repair, such as with the Exxon accident. And I was pointing out that it's not true.

And Desalization plants are essential to some countries, mainly in the middle east.

ChadManMn - Yes, but they have been trying to limmit the ammount of people allowed the last 10-15 years, with quotas and such. Btu maybe those are based on processing times and such, I'm not sure. I'm just not at all a fan of INS, with processing times of 5-6 years for the simplest things, student visas being mailed to dead terrorists, it's insane really.

Podzdorf is right, China will be the worst offender in a couple of decades.

It's amazing what technologies US industry can come up with when they have their backs to the wall. Even SUV's get 20 mpg or so, and that was considered normal back in the early 1970s for all vehicles. But then the gov't passed the CAFE standards (over the objection of the auto industry) and what we have now are safer cars (but that are more prone to expensive cosmetic damage.) So continue steady increases in CAFE standards.

I've read about some Israeli companies that are investing in desalinisation technologies -- once this is done all water needs for millenia will be met.

The problem is that a significant portion of the environmentalist movement wishes us to return to the Stone Age. You may recall fellow Farkers with whom I was arguing talking about penecillin being an "evil development".

Shawn Pickrell

Ok, the way I think of it... (just bear with me)

There are two ways to develop an advanced society... one is the Borg-esque metallic and silicon method, which we seem to be progressing towards. The other is the biological goo method, sort of like the aliens in Independance Day or something... I think the biological goo method is better for the environment, but less 'moral' in terms of cloning, bio-tech, etc. The metallic method would be okay if we completely abandoned conserving our Earth as we know it.

(yes I'm a crackpot)

I'm all for silicon and goo, personally...

Joseppi7
I couldn't care less if it was white trash, Pakistani trash, Nigerian trash or Japanese trash. If someone doesn't have the sense to not throw their trash on their front lawn every morning, they need some educating.

Americanized - learning, observing, and practicing the cultural mores of the dominant culture here in the US.

Oh yeah. Respect other cultures? Why the hell should I respect any culture that subjugates it's women into being just a little less valuable than a good cow? Why should I respect a culture that considers clitorectomies a necessity for young women? Why should I respect a culture that still worships monkeys, little bits of carpet fuzz and potted plants?

Not saying we don't have our own little foibles (fundies r teh suq) running around wreaking havoc (WACO?) but I'd say we're doing pretty well here.

Pants

08-31-02 11:21:06 AM Roboplege

If your "culture" includes shiatting in the street, making generator parts in your garage, having goats live in your house with you, etc., then it probably ain't gonna fly on main street usa. whadda ya think?

before you put your "I'm so tolerant motor" in gear know this.....the things i mentioned ARE part of the culture of some third world peoples. go there, see and then invite that "culture" to live next door.

Bitplayer:

That's almost exactly what my parents' new neighbors are doing. Except the goats.

I'm tolerant of all sorts of things. Want to burn the flag? Go ahead. Protest abortions? Protest away. Write subversive literature? Write on, brotha! Hang CEO's with the check in/cash out 2 years later mentality? Hang 'em high!

Just don't trash MY living space while you're being all "diverse."

We're going to be at war with China in 10 years anyways.

Global warming will be awesome don't be scared of it!

that's the problem with "melting pots" .. everything gets boiled down into a giant homogenised sludge. Whatever, it's your country, run it how you like.

But i'll be as tolerant as I like, and stay off Main St Usa for as long as possible, thanks. My brother's living in a 3rd world jungle, and loving it. It's your culture that's proclaiming itself to be open and all-encompassing. If you want stricter immigration laws, go down that road, if not, then don't expect all your immigrants to snap into the american way of behaving straight away.

(for the record, the roboplege foundation does not endorse sleeping and rooting in shiat, and has the sense to disregard it's own faeces)

This is farking hilarious. Has anyone here even read anything about the protocol? And I don't mean a sum-up on 2 pages, I mean the whole thing and a decent explanation of it?

I don't think there's anything exactly like an American culture, as much as there is say a Negerian culture or whatever. Some preach that the US should be more multi-cultural, but the US is the most multi-cultural country in the world. I'd argue that to be Americanized you'd have to be tolerant of other people, which is why fundamental Christians and white-trash fearing gays and such are made fun of. To be Americanized, you have to be fair to people of different sex, color, sexual preference. You don't have to apreciate their culture or their language or the tiny rock beads they make and sell at organic stores. You'd have to atleast know and properly respect the US Constitution, the oldest in the world. Most people miss the constitution part. It's not ok to marry off your daughters for money or to make your wife wear head scarfs. If you need to get a driver's licence, take the scarf off. It's ok for me to say your culture is backwards and I don't have to apreciate your anything, especially if it's on my tax money. My car is Japanese, I eat all kinds of food, Mexican, Chinese, Thai. I have a poster of a Chinese film on my wall, I like French music (Stereo Total, Serge Gainsbourg, France Gall), as well as Kraftwerk and Senor Coconut. I rent videos everyday from an Indian-owned store, and they are really great people. I can think of a million more things really.

EG-Fox - What are you talking about? No, there isn't anything to be scared of, the next hundred years, the most pesimistic 'green' predictments are 1-4 degree rise in temperature. Past history showed much, much higher ranges of temperature change, in the middle ages and such. That puts things in perspective. Keep in mind that there isn't any observed temepreature change from say, 100 years before. And that's when most of the 'damage' was done, something should have been noticed.

I like my SUV.

08-31-02 10:58:04 AM Vesuvius
actually it says "Moscow plans to ratify the treaty" in your article. READ BEFORE MAKING YOUR SNAZZY HEADLINE.
all it says is that the Russian economy is in the shiatter and that they aren't sure if it will have an adverse effect, but they intend to ratify it.

Vesuvius, I think you're having problems with the word, swallow. Just because Russia can't or won't take it in one bite, doesn't mean they won't gulp it down eventually, IF it is to their benefit. a big IF.
CNN used the word "balk", but it functionally means the same thing. A little quote from the article:
"Although Moscow plans to ratify the treaty, Russian Deputy Minister Mukhamed Tsikanov of the Ministry for Economic Development and Trade warned there was a possibility it may yet be rejected: "There is a risk, there is a risk, without a doubt."

It sure says they plan to ratify the treaty, but here's why they most likely won't,
"Moscow feels billions of dollars it had expected to earn by selling "rights to pollute" under the treaty's quota trading mechanism are now in doubt since the U.S., the biggest potential buyer, has pulled out of the Kyoto process"

So if Russia can't sell the US some pollution credits, they figure it may not be worth their time. Russia may very well not "swallow" the treaty, I suggest you read more carefully, yourself.
This is the same scam where companies were allowed to buy pollution credits by scrapping old cars, whether the vehicles were running and actually creating pollution or not. Actual pollution wasn't affected, just the right to produce pollution could now be purchased.
For the US to sign this, would be the same as volunteering to be blackmailed. The US said No and Russia HAS refused to swallow this treaty at this time because they see their potential profit has evaporated.
Whether this changes in time, remains to be seen.

Just think of the surf that will come in once those polar ice caps melt.... mmmm 20-footers through Golden Gate.

Grapple - you're being abnoxious. Ice caps are not melting, and in fact global ice cover has grown some since the start of this century. The poles have been observed since the 50's and there is absolutely no change in their growth. They remain fixed.

According to a study just published in the Annals of Glaciology the biggest chip off the old ice block?Antarctica?is producing sea ice almost twice as fast as its sloughing it. That is, the planet's biggest repository of sea ice is growing, not shrinking. So says Claire Parkinson of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center.

In a detailed study, she examined 21 years of satellite records of Antarctic sea ice and found that "what is happening in the Antarctic is not what would be expected from a straightforward global warming scenario, but a much more complicated set of events." Just so.

If the planet is warming, it must be somewhere else. Or maybe it's another planet. In the model/dogma versus facts context, facts seem to be winning. Some 5.6 million square kilometers of Antarctic sea ice are under expansion. Only about half that number (3 million square kilometers) show contraction.

That's not what many global warming models predicted, but that's what's going on. Looks like its time?yet again?for the global warmers to revamp their doctrine. Back to work, Green Priests! Hup, hup! Snap, snap!

Here's my question on the Kyoto treaty because at this point I am completely undecided on it. Who's going to be overseeing how much each country pollutes? How will that work? Will countries just send in reports and we'll just take their word for it and then they'll only scrutinize the country reports that certain members have a beef against? Will there be a new panel of international inspectors combing through each and every country adding up pollution? I don't see how this is going to be implemented practically.

Jealousy tax is right. Europe should take care of the log in its own eye before complaining about the speck in our.

why would anyone sign this crap? you can't control your own pollution unless someone else is controlling theirs?
If US, China, EU, any country wants to control their pollution, control it. What diff does it make if other countries are or are not controlling theirs?
Gee, I'd really like to save more money for retirement, but my neighbors are out spending all of their money. Hmmm, I can't save unless they do--bastards.
This isn't about the environment folks.

come on envirofundies, tell us all how we "should" live. hurry though, I'm expecting the christians to be knocking on the door this weekend, to give me their version of how I "should" believe.

Nicepants, sorry to hear that your parents have problems with their neighbors. Will the city not force them to clean up the property and cut down on the noise? Seems like that would be the appropriate way to deal with it.

Hytes :)
email me your addy please as I formatted and lost everything :(

08-31-02 10:55:00 AM TellarHK
And efficient? Puh-leeze. If we were so damn efficient, we wouldn't be having Mexicans and Chinese do all the work.

Ah, such ignorance of simple economics ... the reason that "Mexicans and Chinese do all the work," as you put it, is that Americans will not accept the wages paid by those jobs. In order to sell at a competitive price, businesses seek out those who WILL work for a given wage. The cost of labor is the single biggest expense of any business. THAT'S why you see "Mexicans and Chinese doing all the work," as you put it. In reality, they DON'T do all the work.

/economics 101

Just testing the filter. Ignore this.
Soviet Russia

I welcome the American government to propose a better solution. P.S. Letting the planet die is not a better solution.

But then again, China, et al DID support Kyoto, and they have a floating brown death cloud now.

The treaty, just like this recent "Earth Summit II" was a U.S.-bash-fest. The African nations (including Egypt) all call us irresponsible, and demand more financial aid. Their corrupt dictatorships, AIDS epidemics, and populace that acts like a baby factory would have nothing to do with their country's ruin, would it?

Maybe I'm just a fan of personal (and national) responsiblity, but I just hate it when back-assward countries act like we owe them something, and then when we give them something, we owe them more, and more, and more, and they still get all hissy at these U.N. Conferences.

And STRYPERSWINE's right; while Europe's new EU may be a haven for socialism, it's no environmental angel itself. :P

9/10:

Well my parents haven't gone to the city to complain, in fact when I was back there this July 4th, and noticed the crap they're dealing with, I really WANTED to call the city and get it handled. My parents just said they didn't want any trouble, and that it wasn't so bad, so I left it alone.

They don't throw the garbage on their front lawn anymore, but...the guy who lived there before (Norm) LOVED that lawn. He was a lawn freak. Aerated, fertilized, etc...looked like a damn putting green. BEAUTIFUL lawn. Well, now it looks like the front lawn of some nuclear power plant that's recently gone through a meltdown. Old Norm would have a damned heart attack if he'd see it now. KEEP YOUR LAWN NICE, dammit. Not hard.

Kyo-who?

Screw the socialists in the UN and the EU.

America is the biggest polluter in the world, Texas the most polluted state in the U.S, why doesn`t Bush want to sign Kyoto? Or even show up at the Summit?
We all know where he is from and were he got/get his fundings from!

"we are the greatest nation in the world!"

08-31-02 04:41:57 PM Mrmustard11
"But for myself I am going to do my best to not lay waste to everything in sight."

maybe you are. But, your best is very likely no better than the rest of us do in the normal course of living our lives. shut me up by telling me you don't own a car, have a refridgerator or air conditioning, live in a mined or timbered construction dwelling, own a computer, tv, hair dryer, use hot water to wash yourself and your clothes, cook with non re-newable fuels, buy your food at a supermarket/grocery store, etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.

it seems that the "feel good" aspects of avowing a "green" lifestyle provide only for the sense of self-righteousness of the avower. you still USE, you just imply that you don't use the way "they" do (whoever the fark "they" are). Now, why you do that is and will remain a mystery to me. I apologize up front if you live in a foxhole, eat all natural vegetables, have no means of transport, go around nude, and have hair that's never seen soap (except that soap you made from roadkill), yada, yada, blah, blah and so on.

Did I miss something?

The headline says Russia WON'T ratify.

And the final paragraph of the story has Russia saying there's no reason not to ratify.

Good to see CNN is doing it's usual bang-up job of competent reporting.

the difference instigator is that if you don't believe in god, only you suffer. if you don't protect the environment, everyone does.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Shut down the American economy! The sky is falling!"

Anyone who says there is no problem with the environment has not lived in or near Los Angeles. Even if there is no Greenhouse effect and we are not poisoning the air and water wouldn't it be nice to not have to worry about smog?

It is not practical to stop driving, or stop using fossil fuels. I try to be 'environmentally sensitive' but I could never be a commune-dwelling hippie. It is not hard to try and cut down on your environmental impact, and if everyone does it then it just might make a difference.

I know that we live the the US and we are free to chose to drive what we want and live where we want. If you feel the need to purchase the biggest vehicle you can, use a new styrofoam cup every day, and leave your blow drier running because the air conditioning is makes the house a little too cold then you are free to make those choices. How hard is it to make a different choice?

I drive a 4 banger, I compost everything I can, and I recycle what I can. Doing this I have managed to cut my garbage down to a single bag or less per week. You can call me a hypocrite for still driving and owning a house, a TV, a computer etc... but I don't think I am.

Maybe most environmentalists are full of shiite... but consuming a little less couldn't hurt even if they are.

spoken like a true ecofundie Vesuvius.
I believe the pro-god crew makes the same argument every day. US is going to hell in a handbasket because God isn't in the classroom.
you're entitled to your beliefs---but please admit that you're trying to make others adopt your beliefs.

the sky is falling.

To hell with the ice caps anyway, they're an abberation geologically speaking. Sure they probably helped human evolution a bit, but I think we can do without them now.