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(BBC)   Star Wars interceptor test successful. President celebrates by buying new GI Joe figure.   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 78
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2104 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jul 2001 at 9:24 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2001-07-15 04:20:24 PM
CC, why don't you reply to me then? We aren't opposing national defense, we are opposing this particular plan that cost too much and doesn't do a good enough job.

I guess you want us to pay a huge sum money to put in this system, and then pay tons more to get it better and more accurate. Well I'd rather hold off and pay good money for the better system in a few years. Give it some time for development and improvement.

That is like a car company telling me they can install partially finished anti lock brakes now, or completed anti lock brakes later. Well of course something is better than nothing, right? Only if the price for it makes sense. Sure I'd rather have partial safety than no safety. However, it always comes back to the cost. If partial safety is $100, then sign me up. If partial safety is $10,000, then I think I'd rather wait for total safety.

For once I think that this argument is more cut and dry than the ones about religion and evolution and other issues. This one is about something everyone can understand, at least I hope. It is about money and cost. The cost is just too great right now. Yes we'd love to have the toy, but we just can't afford it with our budget. Just in the same way I'd love a playstation 2 but I decided to wait for the price to come down or a better system to come around.
 
2001-07-15 04:34:38 PM
CC: That total WAS the nationwide tally of Gore's popular vote lead. I only cited the Florida absentee totals because you brought that state up in conversation. I haven't seen any numbers from you. Care to cite some from sources OTHER than CBN, the 700 club, etc.?
By the way, what good is "national defense" if it sparks conflict?
 
2001-07-15 04:37:18 PM
Pharoah-

even Satan can misintrepret Jesus' words to get people to sin. You gotta put his words into prespective. I'm sure he didn't tolerate evil like you want me to.

Theseus-

money for this can be freed up if we stop wasting money on meaningless Government programs and spending. Simple as that.

CC
 
2001-07-15 04:49:01 PM
Henchman-

"Exclusive: Gore Popular Vote Fraudulent?
Wes Vernon
Thursday, Nov. 9, 2000
Some of Al Gore's opposition is ready to act on charges of fraud in several states.
Conservatives, fearing that any George W. Bush victory in only the Electoral College (but not the popular vote) may leave him with a weak mandate, are prepared to challenge reports of fraud wherever it appears that Democrats may have attempted chicanery at the ballot box.

Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, warned before the election that the only way the Democrats could win is to cheat their way to victory.

There is too much at stake, he wrote in American Spectator. The Democrats feel they have no choice but to cheat, he told his readers. Their whole power machine will be imperiled if the GOP takes the executive and legislative branches.

In a post-election discussion with NewsMax.com, Norquist cited the cases of cigarettes as a bribe to homeless people to vote for Gore in Wisconsin (caught on camera by a Milwaukee television station), and illegal voting past a court-ordered shutdown of polling places in St. Louis as possible examples of Democrat efforts to hold on to power at all costs.

Other allegations of fraud not mentioned by Norquist centered on reported irregularities in Broward County in the "make or break" state of Florida; in California, where ballots allegedly were mailed out to illegal aliens; and in New Mexico, where a data glitch resulted in discounting 68,000 early and absentee ballots in a state that Gore supposedly won by about 3,000 to 4,000 votes."

Newsmax is a great source, it only looks so right-wing because the rest of the media is so left-wing. The Mainstream Media refuses to report this because they haven't ended their romance with Al Gore.

"According to Shad Balch, spokesman for California Secretary of State Bill Jones, 3.2 million requests for absentee ballots were made in the state before the Nov. 7 election, and historically, 85 percent of those requests get turned in. This would mean in just the Golden State alone, more than 2.7 million people voted for president by absentee ballot.

Currently, Vice President Al Gore leads Texas Gov. George W. Bush in California by more than 12 percent. Looking at the state's popular vote, Gore leads with 5,443,722 votes to Bush's 4,223,342 votes. The difference between the two candidates is a little over 1.2 million votes.

On the national scale, however, Gore's lead over Bush in the popular vote dwindles to 222,880 votes out of nearly 100 million votes recorded. Gore leads Bush in the electoral count 255-246 so far.

Balch said: "The counties have told us that as of right now, they have yet to count a total of 1,021,000 absentee votes. You cannot speculate who those will go for."

Although predicting the final outcome of the absentee ballots in the state is difficult, Mark DiCamillo at the Public Policy Institute of California ventured a guess that they would reflect the general voting trend throughout the state.

The Public Policy Institute of California has been measuring the absentee votes in California for Voter News Service for the past 10 years.

"The late absentees are more likely to be reflective of the total electorate, not so much the organized campaign-motivated vote, which is what I would characterize the early absentees. They're different groups," DiCamillo said.

DiCamillo further explained that approximately 60 percent of the absentee votes had already been included in the total popular vote for California. In fact, the "first wave" of absentee ballots were counted in advance of the election and were the first to be reported on election night after the polls closed throughout the state at 8 p.m. PST.

Regarding the conventional wisdom that absentee voters tend to lean toward the conservative candidate, DiCamillo said there was no question that at least the initial absentee ballots did so for Bush. He credits the California Republican Party's massive drive to get out the vote early by encouraging the conservative base to vote absentee."

CC
 
2001-07-15 04:53:34 PM
Didn't you guys read the bible verse:

"Thou shall nuke thy whiney liberals in California"

And when Jesus said:

"Go forth an be an arrogant ass-hole on Fark, present no facts for facts are the tool of the Devil".
 
2001-07-15 05:06:14 PM
Information wants to be free.
If information about the atom bomb had been openly shared, maybe the arms race would not have taken place. It's not like the USSR didn't already have a spy feeding them the play-by-play......

People are looking for a reason to get mad.
Just give out the information to everyone. Make EVERYONES' missles useless.
just a thought.
 
2001-07-15 05:16:35 PM
CC: So, even if this "balanced" news of yours is true, I'm not seeing the refutation that Bush lost the popular vote. In fact, one of the articles you cite still gives Gore a lead in the popular vote. Bush LOST the popular vote.

...and "the American Spectator" is hardly balanced. One of their star authors recently came forward about how he sat on evidence that Clarence Thomas DID have a penchant for porn, but that's got nothing to do with missile defense... unless you wanna make a sexual metaphor for Anita Hill...
 
2001-07-15 05:19:03 PM
hey C-C, how about the thousands of blacks in Florida who were turned away at the polls in Florida, because they were mislabled as felons? How about the new report in the New York Times that Bush's lawyers pushed through thousands of absentee ballots that were mislabeled, unsigned, late or otherwise not valid?

I didn't want Gore in office anymore than I wanted Bush there, but don't try and pretend like either side is squeakly clean.
 
2001-07-15 05:40:25 PM
The New York Times is as unbiased as the Berlin News was about Hitler during WW2.

Blacks being mislabled, that's just tough. I bet alot more conservatives got mislabeled also. Personally alot of the NAACP (another Democratic party puppet) claims are just crying. I wait for the day when Black people open their eyes and realize that the Liberals are taking them for a ride and only see them as a bloc of people that will vote for them.

Mislabled ballots? I'll believe it when I see the ballots. It does no good to bring this stuff up now because they won't reverse the decision.

What about St. Louis? where the dead voted? or Wisconsin where people voted many times? or where Bums got cigarettes? what about Chicago, where the dead are still Democrats? or the slanted vote results from every major city with a black population? Obvious voter fraud.

The reason we have an electoral college is so somebody can't stuff the ballots easily and win the Presidency, like Gore tried to do.

CC
 
2001-07-15 05:43:07 PM
IM TOTALLY AMAZED!
C.C posted an actual article! Good job C.C! See, being logical isn't that hard after all. Maybe next year you can sit at the grown up table.
 
2001-07-15 05:46:30 PM
Actually, CC, we have the electoral college to give states of different populations a more equal footing.
Thus, a president can be elected without winning the popular vote, as Bush did.
 
2001-07-15 05:46:48 PM
NEW YORK (CNN) -- As votes were counted and recounted in Florida following the presidential election last November, state elections officials were pressured by Republicans to accept hundreds of overseas absentee ballots that didn't comply with state election laws, the New York Times reported on its Web site in an article to be published Sunday.

A six-month investigation of the overseas absentee ballot question by the newspaper concluded that the Republican effort to get questionable ballots accepted had a "decided impact on the outcome," the newspaper said.

George W. Bush won the presidency by a final margin of 537 votes.

The newspaper analyzed 2,490 overseas absentee ballots that were counted as legal votes after the general election, November 7, 2000. It found 680 questionable votes: "ballots without postmarks, ballots postmarked after the election, ballots without witness signatures, ballots mailed from towns and cities within the United States and even ballots from voters who voted twice. All would have been disqualified had the state's election laws been strictly enforced," the article said.

The newspaper said it is not known for whom the flawed ballots were cast, but that "four out of five were accepted in counties carried by Mr. Bush."

An expert on voting patterns and statistical models cited in the article estimated that if the flawed ballots had been thrown out, Bush's margin would have been reduced to 245 votes.

Jennifer Palmieri, a spokeswoman for the Democratic National Party, said the findings were no surprise.

"The story reinforces the perception that members of the Bush team believe the rules don't apply to them and could explain why the Bush administration has shown no real interest in pursuing the type of electoral reform we need to insure that the sacred right of every citizen to vote and have that vote counted is protected," she said.

A Democratic party official, who did not want to be identified, agreed.

"The story contains damaging new evidence about destroyed official documents, improper and inappropriate coordination post-Election Day between members of the Bush campaign and Republican members of Congress and the Pentagon over private contact information, and the use of selected standards by Republican operatives to illegally count votes that would increase the Bush totals while disqualifying the votes for Gore," the official said.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said the election "was decided by the voters of Florida a long time ago."

"And the nation, the president and all but the most partisan Americans have moved on," he said in a statement to CNN, identical to the one he gave the New York Times in response to the article.

The newspaper's investigation found no evidence of fraud by either party in the overseas absentee ballot matter. But it noted that veteran Republican political consultants mounted a "war room" within the offices of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, a Republican herself who was active in Bush's Florida campaign.

"In Washington, senior Bush campaign officials urged the Pentagon to accelerate the collection and delivery of military ballots, and indeed ballots arrived more quickly than in previous elections. Republicans on the House Armed Services Committee helped the campaign obtain private contact information for military voters," the article said.

The newspaper found that counties carried by Gore only accepted two in 10 ballots that did not show they were mailed on or before Election Day. The same kind of ballots were accepted in six out of 10 cases in counties carried by Bush. It said Bush counties were also four times more likely as Gore counties to count ballots that had no witness signatures and addresses
 
2001-07-15 06:29:04 PM
I'm not sure why we are having a discussion about an election nearly 9 months ago on this thread, because no matter how he got in office, Bush is there now, and we have to deal with it.

CC, if you want to claim that Bush won the popular vote, you can certainly claim so, it is your right. The fact the any figures that you cite will be incomplete doesn't matter to you I am sure, since facts have not been your strong point in the past. However, if you claim that Bush won the popular vote, then it would be equally as valid for someone else to claim Gore won the electoral vote. Both claims are pointless and futile now that so much time has past.

Both parties were probably guilty of election fraud or other infractions. To point out all these claims of Democrats doing it and not acknowledge that Republicans are assuredly guilty of some of the same is blind and misleading. Both parties are made up of people when it comes down to it. There are dishonest people on both sides, and honorable people on both sides. You seem to classify all communists/liberals as evil in your posts. I am not sure why you feel this is so. Their political views may truly be disturbing in your opinion, but the people themselves are not only their political views. There is much more to them that may be honorable or dishonest, loyal or treacherous. Why not acknowledge that behind opinions, people are still people?
 
2001-07-15 06:45:53 PM
I think where the election comes in is the idea of "mandate." It's felt by some that if a given leader didn't win with overwhelming support, he/she shouldn't do things without taking the opposition's ideas or concerns into consideration. Hence, since Bush didn't get elected by a great number of people (some cynics would say "five"), he shouldn't be enacting such controversial and potentially disruptive policies against the wishes of approximately 50% of the voting public (that's a VERY simplified percentage, by the way).
 
2001-07-15 08:40:27 PM
CC: A question: Why do you only believe sources that support your ideas?

Now, about missle defense, here's an analogy: Let's say that the world is a suburb, and all the countries are houses. Now, let's say that one of these homeowners decides to put up an electric fence around his property. Will this make relations between him and his neighbors better or worse? (Take your time, and you may use scratch paper if you need it.)
 
2001-07-15 09:02:32 PM
have we learned nothing from the past?

the development of the atomic bomb lead to the cold war and how can people not see that this missle defense shield being developed by the USA will lead to yet another?

the simple truth is that if one country tries to be at the top, the rest will try and catch up for their own protection. as was mentioned a number of times above, how do you think the USA would feel about China/Russia breaking the arms treaty in order to develope new technology to help give them a defense from attack? the USA would be shiatting their pants and be against the plan because it would give the other country the upper hand on them.

it doesnt take a lot of brain power to figure out that this missle defense shield being developed will destabalize world wide relations. Bush has a brain the size of a peanut it seems so that is where the problem most likely is. anyways, we should all congratulate the USA and Bush right now for being the cause for the next major conflicts yet to come this century.

the people that are in favour of this missle defense plan( only americans it seems ) are very short sighted. they should get their heads out of the ground and take a look at the global picture of things and not just their little corner of the world. i dont see how anyone looking at the whole picture could be for this proposterous plam.
 
2001-07-15 10:31:35 PM
How did this turn into a "Bush stole the presidency" debate (again)?

Screw the world. America needs to look out for itself. But a crappy missile-defense system isn't the way to do it. A working one won't even do the job (as noted by the suitcase bomb/anthrax posts).

Isolationism with guns pointed outward! Let N. Korea invade South Korea. Let the rest of the Asian countries beat down Japan (they've been dying to since WWII). Let China keep all of Tibet in chains and re-absorb Taiwan. Let European Country X massacre it's minorities. Let terrorism reign unchecked by the threat of retaliation, let Saddam invade Kuwait and steal their oil, let the Indonesians re-conquer East Timor by attrition.

Of course, then everybody would whine that the US is 'letting' all of those terrible things happen. There's no winning for the US. The best course would be to continue as if we had no critics, but no one will do that in this age of Sensitivity to Everyone's Feelings.

I'm gonna go dig my bunker and move all of my guns into it.
 
2001-07-15 11:01:46 PM
ok guys, I give up.
I'm not for real. I've just been trying to rile all of you guys up over the last few months.

Hell, I'm REALLY the same person as user RobbieFal.

Just search for RobbieFal's past comments. Search here, and look in the Forum. You'll see that RobbieFal and I always make our comments around the same time....

the fact is, Im a homo.
I use the CC alias to live in denial.
please forgive me.
 
2001-07-15 11:36:57 PM
I really gotta figure out who posted that.

That of course was not me posting (ironicly, the first time). I'd assume that only the Mods could f-ck around like that.

I would have ended this on my own terms, but then it would never end. There is always fuel for the satire of the Right Wing conspiracy.

It is more fun to mock the Right-Wing by being them, than to mock the left-wing.

I did lay off some things with CC, like posting at 3AM.

Still, I am miffed by this impersonation that was done. Do we have a hax0r here or a Mod?

Damnit.. CC went out in the wrong way. Like if JR got shot and they cancelled Dallas during the offseason.

and the Username RobbieFal has been stolen from me.

Pity..

How do you know this is me? well, any mod who can check the lists of votes for my photoshop stuff can see this account voted for my stuff. Daleynews being a ref to Richard Daley and the dead voting Democratic in 1960
 
2001-07-15 11:43:59 PM
no, Im no mod.

Dont hold fark responsible for this.

it is not the mods.


I noticed that you were faking.
Instead of arguing with you, I set out to prove it.
 
2001-07-16 12:03:37 AM
Set out to prove what? that you can be a good hax0r?

real impressive.
 
2001-07-16 12:57:11 AM
What an ass*ole....
 
2001-07-16 03:17:09 AM
It's three in the morning, and I've got nothing better to do so...

1. I never said that the missile defense was a good thing, only that it seems unfair to only look at the negative and none of the positives.

2. Henchman: How many nukes get into the country every day? Drugs != Nukes. Not even close. Nukes start getting across, I'll change my story, but drugs/immigrants are a very different beast.

3. Cost/Benefits - What's the price of an American? It's trite, and hackneyed I know, but it has to be answered. On the other hand, how many Americans will really be saved? This has got to be an incredibly complicated cost/benefit analysis, and I don't think anyone's done it yet.

I have no idea if this thing is a good idea or not, I just think it's amazing that everyone can make up their mind on it so quickly. Everyone's got a strong opinion on it, despite the fact not one in a hundred thousand could tell you the details of how the farking thing works. Look at the link on Fark. This thing is not "Star Wars," it's completely different, built on different technology, with different overall goals. Everyone's got a knee-jerk reaction to the thing, without knowing really what it's about (I'm speaking from experience with people around here, for all I know, people on here actually know what they're talking about).

Also, most of the reports by opponents of the thing never admit that the thing could have any potential benefit, which in my mind sets off BS detectors (as do the reports by supporters which claim the thing will solve all of mankinds problems). I just wish someone would say "Look, here are the potential benefits, here is the chance we will recognize those benefits. Here are the costs, and their probabilities. Therefore, I gotta say this thing is cool/blows goats."

And when the fark did the topic turn to the election? It's over, deal with it. We can elect a new guy in four years.
 
2001-07-16 05:23:50 AM
And at first i thought there were talking about the TIE Interceptors from Return of the Jedi, then i realised it was something else. /me shrugs. It could ave been so kooliesh.
 
2001-07-16 06:10:47 AM
I bet Gore as Prez doesn't look so bad now, does it? lol

Discussing arms races today, tomorrow you'll all forget about this and argue about... hmmm... Britney Spears saying she's not a little girl anymore. (Was in the Province today so I suspect that it'll be in discussions soon here at Fark)

What I saw on the news, this program make the Patriot missles sound like a resounding success! lol

Still can't believe that a Texan won though, even in Canada we knew he'd do something stupid on a daily basis...

/me shrugs too.
 
2001-07-16 07:57:18 AM
Bush - "Ok new city-zens of the usa...join me in the pledge of allegence...right FIST IN THE AIR...WE HAIL TO THE LORD SATAN FOR ALLOWING THE TRUE FUHRUR INTO POWER IN THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! BWA HA HA HA...ER...um..I mean, right hand on your heart..I pledge allegence..to the flag.........."
 
2001-07-16 01:17:03 PM
ok let me get this straight: we are going to trust Dubya to build a defense system which is going to protect (Dubya:"perteckt") our country from nukes?..brilliant. I wouldn't let the moron park my car.

100% chance of PAIN...IN THE GLAVIN!
 
2001-07-16 04:10:39 PM
Hey Drew, you forgot the France Surrenders punch line man!
 
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