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(Slate)   The new Republican ideology: Suburban socialism   (slate.msn.com) divider line 64
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5697 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2002 at 4:41 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-08-21 09:49:42 AM
Feh. I hate you, Kenny
 
2002-08-21 12:01:41 PM
Yes, it is the government's job to protect a person against his investment losses. (It's that whole personal accountability thing the president campaigned on.) They're planning to write that into the "privatization of Social Security" plan, too, you know.

Yes, I have some oceanfront land in Montana and Alberta I'd like to sell you, too.
 
2002-08-21 12:12:16 PM
Texas- I'd buy it but I'm afraid that since I am a struggling family farmer, that unless Dubya works valiantly to kill the "death tax" that I am afraid that the evil liberal gravy train collective will eat my family after I am dead and turn them into homsexual commies.
 
2002-08-21 06:42:30 PM
Nice to see the S.S. back to going about business.
 
2002-08-21 07:09:30 PM
Sentences you rarely hear #381:
"There's a lot of interesting talk about capital gains taxes."
 
2002-08-22 04:46:17 AM
I don't know anything about the economy.
I just pay taxes... and school bills...
and then I have no money.
 
2002-08-22 04:48:38 AM
Yeah, tax the rich. There's an idea.
 
2002-08-22 04:53:06 AM
man that was dull
 
2002-08-22 04:58:18 AM
Why don't we just let the government handle our paychecks? Then they can hand them out to us in neat little single serving packets, and we can all be happy idiots.

GIS for happy idiot:

 
2002-08-22 05:27:13 AM
Abolish the 16th amendment (the amendment to the constitution that created income taxes). America got along just fine before 1916 without the government confiscation of income and could do so again. All of the governmental and socialist types might have a harder time implementing social engineering with other people's money and have to find go find real jobs.

Maybe having keeping their own money and taking responsibility for their own life might be too much freedom for Americans today. True freedom is scary to the meek and I'm not so sure that people have as much stomach for it as their revolutionary forefathers did.

Save the Republic
Vote Libertarian
 
2002-08-22 06:19:17 AM
Actaully you could probably get rid of (a huge chunk) of income tax and keep the evil social programs if America would stop giving in to its military spending addiction.
 
2002-08-22 06:31:50 AM
Don't forget those agribusiness subsidies and corporate bailouts!
 
2002-08-22 06:44:05 AM
right on spacecoyote
 
2002-08-22 06:45:29 AM
But Captain_Quint, then we'd have to cut government giveaways enrichment programs? What about that Chiiiildrennn?!?
 
2002-08-22 06:46:35 AM
Yet another discriminatory targeted tax cut brought to you by the people in power for those that voted for them.
 
2002-08-22 06:52:13 AM
Administration officials and members of Congress are reportedly considering both proposals: cutting taxes on capital gains, and increasing the tax deduction for investment losses.
Alrighty. Cutting taxes. That would mean not taking money from someone, if I recall correctly. I.E. money that is possessed by an individual or business is not confiscated as a tax. Fair enough?
If the government has no business taking your money, it has no business bailing you out.
So how is "cutting taxes" bailing someone out? If there were subsidies, this would be a different story. But this is basically taking an existing tax deduction for capital losses and increasing the amount that can be deducted. If you'd retired in the last couple of years and taken money out of your 401(k), you may just have experienced some serious capital losses yourself.
 
2002-08-22 06:57:01 AM
The bailing someone out part is when they let you write off investment losses as a business expense.
 
2002-08-22 07:03:24 AM
Id rather pay for a dozen tanks than one freeloading welfare leech. Id also rather pay for a dozen B-2 bombers than one useless desk squatting leech at the Department of Education. Military defence is one of the few tasks that the federal government is required to do. Not to say they couldnt do it will less bureaucracy. Im all for less paper pushers in the DoD and more weapons.
 
2002-08-22 07:30:08 AM
 
2002-08-22 08:00:44 AM
Some paper pushers design the weapons.
 
2002-08-22 08:15:15 AM
08-22-02 08:11:58 AM Sprediletto


You must hate highways and the Armed Forces.
 
2002-08-22 08:15:24 AM
Stevearooni: If my dad cant write off his losses at the local Indian casino, then why should some guy be able to write off his losses in the big Wall Street casino? Especially when my dad would have to pay the full taxes on his winnings.

Cutting taxes good, only cutting the riches taxes, not so good.
 
2002-08-22 08:21:17 AM
 
2002-08-22 08:43:41 AM
08-22-02 08:27:48 AM Sprediletto


You obviously mistake me for someone who gives a damn about what you have to say.
 
2002-08-22 09:00:26 AM
Actually I give a good goddman.
 
2002-08-22 09:08:39 AM
Anybody else just a little bored with the cookie-cutter Libertarian tax-whinges? At least the fundie types go out and find new things to be pissed off about, but the libertarian types never seem to change their tune.. very dull indeed.
 
2002-08-22 09:26:51 AM
Sprediletto, I would think that Enron, Global Crossing, Andersen et. al would clue you in to the fact that free market capitalism isn't the shiny, happy cure for the world that right wing nuts make it out to be.
 
2002-08-22 09:50:08 AM
This article sums up the hypocrisy of the right's economic plans. They aren't interested in lowering taxes for everyone in the country as much as they want to pay off their voters. Look at Bushies economic policies, gross farm subsidies, steel tariffs, increasing deductions for investment losses, eliminating the corporate tax, continued subsidies for import/export-sugar growers-defense contractors, and tell me how they help the majority of Americans.

These guys are just as bad as the other guys, they just have different ways to waste my money.
 
2002-08-22 09:56:28 AM
Marsusw
These guys are just as bad as the other guys, they just have different ways to waste my money.

Elimination of a tax is NOT a waste of money.

There's a HUGE difference between the Democrats taxing my paycheck and then pissing it away on handouts, and Pubs giving me a tax break and allowing me to spend my income as I please.

Having said that, I do agree that there is not all that much difference between the two major parties today. That's why I vote Libertarian.
 
2002-08-22 09:56:42 AM
So, like, if the guys with lots of money are allowed to keep even more of it, who has to pick up the slack on this? Oh yeah, the poor people.

Anyone who believes these assholes would ever do anything that would benefit anyone who isn't obscenely rich really needs to wake up before the next election.
 
2002-08-22 09:59:32 AM
Sprediletto writes: COMPANIES FAIL. That is the beauty of the free market.

Companies defraud their investors if given the chance. Companies ruin the environment if given the chance. Companies sell defective products if given the chance. The "free" market helps them do it. (Free in this instance not meaning a market unconstrained by monopolies or combinations in restraint of trade -- but a market free from government regulation and oversight.)
 
2002-08-22 10:13:14 AM
Spred: I might buy into that if I thought the game was fair, but it has been rigged. Don't play the "work hard, live right" card when it doesn't apply.

In the 80's the average CEO was making less than 50 times the income of the lowest paid worker in the company. Mow that has risen to over 400 times. The system of executive compensation is broken throught the Fortune 1000. A good company doesn't fire 10,000 workers, lose billions in share value, and give the top executives tens of millions in bonuses. But that is exactly what has happened in hundreds of cases.

Don't tell me about the truth's of the stock market. Insider trading is epidemic. Look at how many guys turned tiny investments into tens of millions in profits. Some of them just got lucky, but most of them were given info the average investor won't. That's wrong.

All of this is enhanced by corporate spending on politicians, or as I like to call it "legalized bribery." Who believes that CEO X gives 100,000 and expects nothing in return? Banking dereg, telecom dereg, bankruptcy restructuring, all were written by industry lobbyists. The American public never got a chance to weigh in on whether these plans were good or bad, because they were pushed through quickly and quietly as payback. I for one don't trust those who will benefit from drastic changes in law to be the sole voices heard.

Don't whine to me about how the liberals are keeping you from getting a fair tax. NEWSFLASH: the tax system is structured so that it benefits the corporations and absurdly wealthy. These people will never allow a change to a flat tax or sales tax. The system works for them.

While I think a national sales tax is a bad idea, I would have no problem with chopping out almost every deduction and credit and instead lowering the rates people pay, but those vested in the current system(ultra-rich, many corporations, politicians) will never let it happen.

When you are looking for someone to blame for all of your troubles, stop looking down at the "slackers and brood-mares" and start looking up to the corner offices and lobbyist suites. Or better yet, take some of your own advice, and look in the mirror.
 
2002-08-22 10:24:26 AM
BDshap: The capitol gains cut is not what I am talking about. My hyprocrisy beef is with the increase in deduction for stock losses. I'm all for eliminating the deduction entirely. If someone wants to invest(which I do by the way) let them take the hit when they lose money. Increasing the deduction to 20,000 is a ridiculous giveaway. If welfare is bad for poor folk, its just as bad for wealthy folk.
 
2002-08-22 10:50:47 AM
Sprediletto

go back to beating off to ayn rand.

if libertarions succeeded, small business would be in even greater peril. the LARGE would crush the small. economies of scale is a motherfarker. monopolies would thrive and the small businesses of the country would fold to the large conglomurates resulting from a truly libertarian economic policy. you also fail to see the impact government spending has on the economy. you sit here touting your education, what do you think of keynes? as insider trading would be legal under a truly libertarian regime (strong market theory), those with insider information (executives, upper management) could further rape the middle and lower classes. hell, since the libertarian platform calls for the repeal of RICOH laws as well, the mafia can once again enter the wonderful free market of crime.

you need to get a world view. you have no perspective but your own myopic one. does a rural poor black, whose FATHER could not education because of his race actually have the same opportunity as everyone else? try analyzing these problems from a different perspective, moron.
 
2002-08-22 10:59:15 AM
08-22-02 05:27:13 AM Captain_Quint:
"Save the Republic
Vote Libertarian"


Yeah. As long as you don't give two turds about education, the environment, and the future, go right ahead and do that.

This isn't to say that the Libertarians don't have some good ideas -- they do. But on the whole, their party platform sucks. Maybe that's why they aren't getting more people elected.
 
2002-08-22 11:24:35 AM
"and the company gets what the company wants"
 
2002-08-22 11:26:44 AM
Democrats: tax and spend

Republicans: borrow and spend

maybe they both spend, but it seems to me the second one goes further into debt faster. Any question of how to pay off the debt (you know, that huge national debt the US has) is usually sidestepped. I guess if we ignore it, the debt will go away?

Maybe I can do that on my mortgage. Oh, guess not!
 
2002-08-22 11:57:10 AM
08-22-02 06:52:13 AM Stevarooni:
"So how is 'cutting taxes' bailing someone out? If there were subsidies, this would be a different story. But this is basically taking an existing tax deduction for capital losses and increasing the amount that can be deducted. If you'd retired in the last couple of years and taken money out of your 401(k), you may just have experienced some serious capital losses yourself."

It's a double-standard, assuming a repeal of capital gains tax coupled-with an increase in capital loss deductibility. You're allowed to deduct loss from your taxes, even when a similar gain is non-taxable.
 
2002-08-22 12:01:05 PM
"This isn't to say that the Libertarians don't have some good ideas -- they do. But on the whole, their party platform sucks."

That's because they're right-wing libertarians. You know, the Social Darwinist types who think corporations screwing shareholders, employees, and the general public is a good thing. Those people scare the hell out of me.

The truth is clustered around the center. Some regulation, redistribution of income, etc., is good for everybody. Keep in mind the qualifier some.

Anyway, which would you rather have, given the following choices ONLY: tax and spend, or borrow and spend?

way Too Much Sense! (tm)
 
2002-08-22 12:03:44 PM
Who was that guy who used to play with the Royals with a toothpick sticking out of his mouth?
 
2002-08-22 12:16:11 PM
08-22-02 11:37:17 AM Sprediletto:
"At the end of the day, all that matters is that myself, my family, our friends, my business associates, my clients, my dogs and the people we choose to help (through charity or personal interaction) are the ONLY ones that matter. "

What about your children? Your friends' children? The children of your business associates? Do you truly want to leave them with a world in which profit motivation is the only meaningful motivation? Where everyone is looking out only for #1?

"Everyone I know thinks allong the same lines as I do."

Must be a boring circle of friends. I would hate it if everyone I knew always agreed with me or thought like me. I would hate it if they even did so most of the time.

"One bit of advice: You'll never convince an Achiever and someone who has built their wealth that the correct thing to do is take that wealth by gun-point and re-allocate it to people who haven't worked for it."

Oooh, that was a beautiful straw man. I bet you were proud of it when you set it up. Or did you borrow it from lp.org? Anyway, you speak as if the only purpose of taxation is wealth redistribution. In fact, welfare makes up a very small portion of the federal budget. Medicare is a huge pig, but virtually everyone qualifies for it once they reach a certain age. If the government takes a portion of my money and hands it to somebody else, that's bad. If the same government takes a portion of my money, uses it to provide social services that the private sector wants no part of, and creates jobs and economic stimulus in the process, then I'm all for it.

A big peeve I have with the Libertarian Party is that they generally refuse to admit that there's anything worthwhile that can't be profit motivated. But that's simply not true. And even when they do (begrudgingly) admit that some things are the responsibility of government, you can't get them to nail down exactly what those things are.

"Sure, I give money to charity and SURPRISE the majority of Americans do. Not just for the tax break but, because if allocated to the right agency's, real change and good can occur. Sooooo much better than what the FEDS will do with our hard-earned dollars."

Guess what? The charity is probably excessively wasteful, too. Does the charity provide infrastructure for commerce?

"I do not believe the country is as shiatty as you all think and corporate greed, corruption, insider trading, blah, blah, blah is widespread. I work closely with hundreds of business people and organizations and have run into one situation where someone was trying to defraud us."

Corporations are rather like the mob mentality. When mobs riot, throw stuff at athletes, etc., the majority of the people are normally otherwise decent citizens that get caught up in the psychology of the mob. Same thing applies to corporations. Decent people do crappy things without even realizing it.

Repeal the "real person" status of corporations, and you go a long way toward fixing the problems with corporate America.
 
2002-08-22 12:28:58 PM
SpaceCoyote: "Actaully you could probably get rid of (a huge chunk) of income tax and keep the evil social programs if America would stop giving in to its military spending addiction."

Nhurley, this is for you too.

What, exactly, do you propose to cut in the nation's military spending structure?

(1) Do you propose to stop developing new weapons and hope everyone else stays exactly where they are?
(2) Do you propose to cut the size of our armed forces at a time when their treaty committments are greater than ever? (3) Do you propose to bring our soldiers home? If so it looks like I have an ally in my lonely struggle against American interventionism.

Military spending is lower, as a percentage of GDP, than any time in the past 30 years. It is lower, in absolute dollars, than during the Reagan-inspired buildup of the 1980s. Military personnel are fewer now than they have been in decades.

Come now, I'm waiting ...

As for taxes. Capital gains are already taxed at a lower rate than other income. I see no reason to lower them further, when the bulk of the benefit goes to the upper 1-5% of taxpayers. A lowering of the rate would produce a flurry of selling (another stock market bubble?) and then a reduction of revenue. I also have my doubts as to its ability to jumpstart the economy.

The Case Against the Capital Gains Tax Cuts

The current mutual fund tax code is a bit perverse. If you buy a bunch of shares for private use, hold them for a year, you can pay taxes on capital gains and dividend even though (1) the fund lost money and (2) you didn't see any of these capital gains and dividends. These taxes should be deferred to the time you sell the shares.

I'd also be more in favour of eliminating the double-taxation on dividends -- this will encourage companies to give out more in dividends -- if they have the $$$ to pay dividends, then this leaves less room for fuzzy accounting. Remember, in the bad old days, the dividend yield from stocks was HIGHER than the interest yield from bonds. Granted, most of the benefit here goes to people who do not need it, but there is a good (better accounting standards) that would come out of it.

I make more ($120K p/a between my wife and me) so I should be expected to give more. I do not mind my tax money going toward worthy causes such as feeding the poor, building roads and defending this country.

Shawn Pickrell
 
2002-08-22 12:31:07 PM
"Repeal the "real person" status of corporations, and you go a long way toward fixing the problems with corporate America."

What do you think the real-life effects of this would be?

Shawn Pickrell
 
2002-08-22 01:00:35 PM
I'm tired of the free market worship. It's replaced God in our country. As countries creep closer to a laisse faire economies the more people ask for protection from the market. Is society's goal to have free markets or what people want?
 
2002-08-22 01:14:08 PM
1. Libertarians suck.
2. Corporate welfare sucks.
3. Making the rich richer at the expense of everyone else is evil.
 
2002-08-22 01:21:51 PM
You'll never convince an Achiever and someone who has built their wealth that the correct thing to do is take that wealth by gun-point and re-allocate it to people who haven't worked for it.

As an achiever that has built a company up from scratch, I am just fine with the government taking a chunk of it. What I'm left with is still more than what most people have earned. Sorry, but most successful people are not as selfish and heartless as... well... as you.

News flash for you: welfare is not a permanent teat for the majority of people that find themselves on it. Welfare is a temporary stop.

News flash #2: people who lack the basics of society (food, shelter, etc) aren't going to quietly go off in a corner and die.
 
2002-08-22 01:44:54 PM
i cant stand suburbia or yuppies... hey crakeur jacque, your a worthless piece of fu-cking shiat socialist. for I am a libertarian
 
2002-08-22 02:09:06 PM
News flash #2: people who lack the basics of society (food, shelter, etc) aren't going to quietly go off in a corner and die.

No, but it won't help them if you give them my money and don't make them go out and earn it.

Funny thing, I've been busting my arse since I got to college, and when I get out, I'll probably make a pretty decent wage. And you people are gonna hate me for it.

On that note, and to stay on topic, I think that investments should not be taxed when they earn and the losses should not be tax deductible. I also think that the market needs better regulation to control insider trading. I don't know how to do that, however, since I'm not really into the market at this point in my life.
 
2002-08-22 02:09:21 PM
"08-22-02 12:28:58 PM Stpickrell :
"What, exactly, do you propose to cut in the nation's military spending structure?"

Let's see, where to begin? Oh, I know. Let's stop building C-130 aircraft that the military neither needs nor wants. And let's close down some obsolete military bases that the military has been begging to close for years. Let's not build stealth bombers that cost $2B each and have extremely limited functionality. And, this is the best part, let's NOT build a missile defense shield that nobody believes will work.

I'm all for sensible, intelligent military spending, and maintaining the strongest military presence in the world. But once the politicians get involved, the spending is neither sensible nor intelligent.
 
2002-08-22 02:12:49 PM
Tgirschonce the politicians get involved, the spending is neither sensible nor intelligent.

Agreed. That's about 99% of the problem, I'd say...

Is anybody else interested in succession? :-D
 
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