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(911Blogger)   Panicky 9/11 truth nutjobs debate Oakland gas tanker incident, see their WTC conspiracy theories collapse as quickly as that highway did   ( 911blogger.com) divider line
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19551 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Apr 2007 at 3:55 PM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



589 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2007-04-30 11:48:16 AM  
Bwahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaahaha
 
2007-04-30 11:53:12 AM  
I like the theory that there was water trapped in the concrete and when heated, it expanded and made the highway fall apart.
 
2007-04-30 12:01:42 PM  
Obviously the CIA was waiting under the overpass with thermite bombs solely for the purpose of ending speculation about how Bush and the Joos took down the WTC!!!11!1one1one!

/DNRTA
 
2007-04-30 12:03:10 PM  
I've always been amazed at how few differences there are between a highway overpass and two 110 story buildings.
 
2007-04-30 12:09:35 PM  
Mordant: I've always been amazed at how few differences there are between a highway overpass and two 110 story buildings.

No kidding. Without the weight of those 100+ floors on them, I'm surprised the roadbed didn't just float away after the metal holding it down was melted.
 
2007-04-30 12:14:31 PM  
Actually the people pointing and laughing at the "9/11 nutbags" consistently seem a lot more desperate and panicked.
For obvious reasons I guess.
 
2007-04-30 12:14:38 PM  
TFA Sorry, xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx has been banned.

I wonder who here has been causing problems there. It'd be a very short list of people.
 
2007-04-30 12:26:36 PM  
BearToy: Actually the people pointing and laughing at the "9/11 nutbags" consistently seem a lot more desperate and panicked.

Did you read the last comment where he "Debunked" the Yahoo article? That long assed post was as about as desperate as it gets.
 
2007-04-30 12:35:12 PM  
Greenlit. Awesome. I'll pay for two months of Fark for the first person who constructs and posts images of a chicken-wire shake test based on the bridge collapse.
 
2007-04-30 12:35:12 PM  
In reading those comments on the site I feel strangly numb, like I just got hit wiht a sthupid bhat... IQ dropppppinggggg
 
2007-04-30 12:37:59 PM  
Actually the people pointing and laughing at the "9/11 nutbags" consistently seem a lot more desperate and panicked.
For obvious reasons I guess.


Quite the opposite.

Loose Change is undergoing its third edit. The makers of the film have been shredded on-camera, where their sole argument has been to shriek "you're a liar! liar!". Their "oh, we DELIBERATELY made mistakes so that the viewers would feel the need to do their own research" line makes them more of a joke than they were before.

So many lies, half-truths, bad science and from the "truth" movement have been debunked so many times in so many forae that, I think, the general public cannot hear the oft-repeated lie (ie: there's no airplane wreckage at the pentagon!!") without visualizing the truth in their minds (ie: photos of airplane wreckage on the pentagon lawn and inside the building.)

So what's left? LIke this article, what's left is just the tinfoilers -- none of whom have any training or knowledge of physics, engineering or any other related fields -- talking to each other and arguing over whether the flash on the bottom of plane #1 was a pre-planted explosive or whether it was a radio-control pod. The concept of "sunlight glinting off metal", of course, escapes them all.
 
2007-04-30 12:40:54 PM  
I heard the tanker driver took driving lessons but didn't want to learn how to park.
 
2007-04-30 12:42:31 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: So what's left?

photos.imageevent.coms
 
2007-04-30 12:46:58 PM  
BearToy: Actually the people pointing and laughing at the "9/11 nutbags" consistently seem a lot more desperate and panicked.
For obvious reasons I guess.


Because it's hilarious?
 
2007-04-30 12:50:32 PM  
Planting things under bridges, sounds familiar....

img398.imageshack.us
"We are taking your overpass cause it belongs to us now."
 
2007-04-30 12:51:58 PM  
The BBC reported the highway collapsed a half hour before it actually did.
 
2007-04-30 12:54:59 PM  

From that last post that "debunked" the Yahoo! article:

When NIST and UL built scale models of floor trusses, ...

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_fire_resistance_data.​htm

There's an article about what NIST discovered at the UL facility in Toronto. That poster totally misrepresents the intention of that study and the conclusions that they reached. The entire study as a PDF is here http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/ULTestResults.pdf



The four laboratory tests provide only a means for evaluating the relative fire resistance rating of the floor systems under standard fire conditions and according to accepted test procedures. Shyam Sunder, lead investigator of the NIST WTC investigation, cautions, "These tests alone cannot be used to determine the actual performance of the floor systems in the collapse of the WTC towers. However, they are already providing valuable insight into the role that the floors may have played in causing the inward bowing of the perimeter columns minutes before both buildings collapsed."

"The fire conditions in the towers on 9-11 were far more extreme than those to which floor systems in standard U.S. fire rating tests are subjected," Sunder says. "Our investigation's final assessment of how the floor system performed in the WTC fires also must consider factors such as the combustible fuel load of the hijacked jets, the extent and number of floors involved, the rate of the fire spread across and between floors, ventilation conditions, and the impact of the aircraft-damaged towers' ability to resist the fire."


Isn't it ironic how so much of the "truth" movement are such blatant liars, doncha think?
 
2007-04-30 01:01:14 PM  
Pocket Ninja: 'll pay for two months of Fark for the first person who constructs and posts images of a chicken-wire shake test based on the bridge collapse.

Is this close enough? (credit: ancalagon)

img405.imageshack.us



/sadly there is no 429truth.org... yet...
 
2007-04-30 01:03:51 PM  
Radioactive Ass: Is this close enough? (credit: ancalagon)

It's a great picture, and I laughed when I saw it earlier, but no, that's not what I'm looking for...I want a chicken wire model collapsing as per the fantastically scientific version that some conspiracy nutjob arranged for the WTC.
 
2007-04-30 01:05:54 PM  
"9/11 was the first time ever fire has melted metal" Rosie O'Donnell.

You know, except for all those times in the Pennsylvania steel mills, like here:

www.timken.com
 
2007-04-30 01:14:23 PM  
DIA(steel melting)F.
 
2007-04-30 01:15:25 PM  
their fantasy worlds just ran right into a huge pile of middle school science. who woulda thunk it, if solids are heated to a certain temp, depending on the solid, it starts to melt? like how bethlehem pennsylvania figured it out, hence they can bend and shape steel into the shapes they want.
 
2007-04-30 01:27:18 PM  
new post on that page:

i tried a controlled experiment a couple of years ago - i tried to melt my wheelbarrow using kerosene - the kerosene fire would not even burn the paint off of the wheelbarrow - it did not melt an aluminum beer can either.


Hi-farkin-larious.
 
2007-04-30 01:29:47 PM  
Pocket Ninja: I want a chicken wire model collapsing as per the fantastically scientific version that some conspiracy nutjob arranged for the WTC.

Oki-doki...

img103.imageshack.us

 
2007-04-30 01:47:26 PM  
Hydrocarbon fires alone cannot reach the temperatures high enough to "melt" steel. But these disinfo/misinfo liars count on the public not knowing these facts.

Jesus, these people will try to turn anything into a conspiracy. He's accusing a reporter of taking advantage of the fact that most people have zero knowledge of physics rather than the more plausible idea that the reporter is one of those morons with no knowledge of physics?

I can see this guy at the grocery store accusing the checkout clerk of conspiring to overcharge him $0.14 on yogurt. "They WANT you to think it's 89 cents!!!"
 
2007-04-30 01:56:28 PM  
Wow. I just read another link, and posted on another thread, that I thought this was a joke, or parody. It's not???????

Holy shiat some people are IDIOTS.

WOW.

It's even funnier now that I know it's not a parody.

Hee hee..
 
2007-04-30 02:05:06 PM  
Sometimes an exploding gas tanker that collapses a freeway stack loop is just an exploding gas tanker that collapses a freeway stack loop.

Pink Freud!
 
2007-04-30 02:12:25 PM  
I recall chemistry, physics, and thermodynamics being a series of classes everyone in my public high school took. Where do these people come from that they question the difference between fuel characteristics of jets and trucks? Or try to draw parallels between a falling bit of concrete and a giant mass of skyscraper. Not to mention that every person who posts online has access to thousands of websites and scientific articles discussing all the facts they make up on the spot. I hate 911 conspiracy discussions. Its a double threat of stupid and lazy.
 
2007-04-30 02:12:59 PM  
I heard they "pulled" the bridge...
 
2007-04-30 02:15:06 PM  
img79.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 02:16:29 PM  
img399.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 02:17:36 PM  
Ancalagon: You are making my day with these pictures. Thank you.
 
2007-04-30 02:19:31 PM  
Not to mention that every person who posts online has access to thousands of websites and scientific articles discussing all the facts they make up on the spot.

That's why I found the poster referencing the UL/NIST study in Toronto to be so funny in his ignorance.

He states, essentially, that "the UL/NIST study said XYZ and therefore....", when the truth is that the UL study said nothing about XYZ, wasn't designed to answer the questions about XYZ and is readilly available through a Google search where anyone can read for themselves that XYZ wasn't part of the experiment.

Facts are so flexible for the "truthers", eh?
 
2007-04-30 02:19:51 PM  
I declare Ancalagon the winner of this thread. Those pics are great.
 
2007-04-30 02:21:13 PM  
"Warnings from as far back as 1994 were ignored. See how they faked it!".

Ancalagon is making me LOL.
 
2007-04-30 02:39:45 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: Facts are so flexible for the "truthers", eh?

Since when have they ever let facts interfere The Truth©®™?
 
2007-04-30 02:58:14 PM  
Pocket Ninja: I'll pay for two months of Fark for the first person who constructs and posts images of a chicken-wire shake test based on the bridge collapse.

Isn't Fark still free?
 
2007-04-30 03:01:14 PM  
etoof: Isn't Fark still free?

You'll get over it.
 
2007-04-30 03:03:57 PM  
Pocket Ninja: I'll pay for two months of Fark for the first person who constructs and posts images of a chicken-wire shake test based on the bridge collapse.

etoof: Isn't Fark still free?

That's why he's offering two.
 
2007-04-30 03:05:29 PM  
Truthers are stranger than fiction

Very funny encounter w/ the truth (pops)
 
2007-04-30 03:05:58 PM  
This thread made me look at the the DU 9/11 forums (p). Someone stole your original picture Ancalagon. Comment #18. (p)

/it's fun to watch them spin, spin, spin...
 
2007-04-30 03:09:39 PM  

from dogdaze's link:

The woman started speechifying again and finally was shouted down by the crowd, which was strongly left-leaning but apparently not insane.


Nice to hear that even the OpinionJournal page at the WSJ can differentiate between "left wing" and "nuttier than a snickers bar".
 
2007-04-30 03:20:56 PM  
etoof: Isn't Fark still free?

Heh. OK, OK, two months of TotalFark.

And Radioactive Ass has it as of now, although his picture isn't *really* what I had in mind...he (very creatively) just used old pictures to make it, and part of the requirement was a *construction*. But unless someone posts something better by, say, 8:00 ET, the prize is his.
 
2007-04-30 03:30:26 PM  
Pocket Ninja: although his picture isn't *really* what I had in mind...

It was a joke. Give it to someone more deserving...
 
2007-04-30 03:31:07 PM  
needs to be a photoshop thread.
 
2007-04-30 03:33:38 PM  
Radioactive Ass: It was a joke. Give it to someone more deserving...

I know, but unless some liter steps up, I'll stand by what I offered.
 
2007-04-30 03:47:04 PM  
Ancalagon

Careful. There are nutjobs who will see those pictures out of context and not only believe them, but argue their tenacity veracity, even if you were to convince them that you made them up as a joke.
 
2007-04-30 04:02:07 PM  
elchip

That is a work of art!
 
2007-04-30 04:03:07 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2007-04-30 04:04:15 PM  
elchip

Thanks for bringing this thread to a complete and utter shutdown lol.
 
2007-04-30 04:04:17 PM  
Elchip - wow, just, wow.

you make me want to seek the truth. What did Vader know and when did he know it?
 
2007-04-30 04:05:47 PM  
Elchip, that was awesome. Game over man game over.
 
2007-04-30 04:06:38 PM  
This was the thread I was waiting for when I first heard what had happened in Oakland. Lots of excellent posts. It's good to know I can count on Fark.
 
2007-04-30 04:07:28 PM  
elchip

For some reason, when I read that, I hear it done in the voice of the fake-Michael Moore from Fellowship 911.

It's even funnier that way.
 
2007-04-30 04:07:41 PM  
Cue the "not this shizt again" guy.
 
2007-04-30 04:08:54 PM  
Props to elchip. A masterpiece of Fark commentary.
 
2007-04-30 04:09:16 PM  
 
2007-04-30 04:09:35 PM  
I saw that last week Elchip. Funny as hell. You should attribute it though... even if it was Alex Jones.
 
2007-04-30 04:09:41 PM  
elchip:

Bravo.
 
2007-04-30 04:10:26 PM  
Elchip: Newsletter, etc.

Also, did anybody else say "What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?" or "Do you have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?" when they read that?
 
2007-04-30 04:11:02 PM  
But.......But........But......The thermite.....
The.... metal......it.......melts......it....
thermite.......melts........steel.......it...
the.....but.....but.....steel.....melts......thermite
.......but......steel......melts.......but....but...
wha....wha.... what? Rosie said.... it was GW.....

wha....wha....but....it....it...was pulled....it
?????!!!!!????!!!!

And then the Truther's brain Assploded!!
 
2007-04-30 04:11:15 PM  
This thread is cracking me up.

Ancalagon is my hero.
 
2007-04-30 04:11:31 PM  
SlothB77:

You know, except for all those times in the Pennsylvania steel mills, like here:

That's actually only a casting ladle, and virtually all modern steel mills have moved on to electric arc furnaces, but you've still made a valid point.
 
2007-04-30 04:11:39 PM  
Sheeple, please!

/just came in here to say "sheeple"
 
2007-04-30 04:11:39 PM  
www.chrisrommel.com

PWNED!

amongst my first thoughts as well.
 
2007-04-30 04:11:39 PM  
www.nwrain.com

Inside job.
 
2007-04-30 04:12:28 PM  
Sivan Kurzberg.
 
2007-04-30 04:12:37 PM  
I heard that all the Jews who commute over that highway were told to stay home yesterday.
 
2007-04-30 04:13:14 PM  
www.savagelogic.com

FOOLS! Look at the proof!!
 
2007-04-30 04:15:41 PM  
I don't understand. The situations aren't analogous at all. How would this prove or disprove any theory?
 
2007-04-30 04:15:50 PM  
elchip

Hulk Hogan, man. You win.
 
2007-04-30 04:16:30 PM  
elchip: As far as I know, it was just some random guy

It was posted (and redlit) sometime last week from AJ's site. I assumed he wrote it but I guess maybe he grabbed it from someone else. Still funny as hell though.
 
2007-04-30 04:17:29 PM  
elchip

Thats it, thread over, you've stolen the win from Ancalagon. Thank you for that.

Now if only somone could debunk those...
 
2007-04-30 04:17:36 PM  
HotWingConspiracy: It doesn't prove or disprove anything. But that won't stop both sides from flinging poop like bands of angry orangutans.
 
2007-04-30 04:18:07 PM  
VIDEO!!!! Sorry, doesn't pop.
 
2007-04-30 04:18:24 PM  
Did Rosie really say "9/11 was the first time fire ever melted metal" ???

If so, wow, just wow.
 
2007-04-30 04:19:58 PM  
I heard from a very reliable source that there were no j00's anywhere near the overpass when the tanker exploded....

Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!
 
2007-04-30 04:19:58 PM  
elchip -- I did not LOL. I sat in stunned amazement at the sheer brilliance of it. Too shocked to laugh my arse off.

(two minutes go by)

Okay. Now I'm starting to laugh.

Amazing.

You win the Internet.
 
2007-04-30 04:20:07 PM  
so this would be what, the second time in human history that fire has melted steel?
 
2007-04-30 04:20:36 PM  
Y'know, just because you loathe the president and everything he stands for (and I do) doesn't mean you have to believe every accuasation made against him. Especially not accusations that would have him hatching needlessly intricate, nay, Rube Goldbergian, plots that would involve hundreds or thousands of people, none of whom have had a pang of conscience and come forward in the last six years.

Did Bush take maximum political advantage of 9/11 in order to secure Republican domination and big bucks for Halliburton? You bet!

Did Bush make 9/11 happen so that he could take maximum political advantage of it in order to secure Republican domination and big bucks for Halliburton? Very unlikely.

Did Bush make 9/11 happen by shooting a missile at the Pentagon, claiming it was a plane, throwing two actual planes at WTC but have the destruction accomplished by explosives cached within the buildings, shooting down a flight over rural Pennsylvania, and fabricating several reams of records? No. Don't be a dumbass.
 
2007-04-30 04:21:00 PM  
So, let me see if I have this straight:

Bush & Friends can't even get away with firing 8 lawyers without news of it being turning into a national scandal.

But...Bush & Friends are savvy enough to orchestrate the most diabolical plot in our history, killing thousands, and nobody among the thousands of people that would've been involved in this elaborate plot has opened their yap to anyone, anywhere. Oh yeah, and if Bush & Friends are so good at hoaxing people, why didn't we "find" any WMD's in Iraq? If they could kill over 3,000 people on our own soil it wouldn't be hard to plant a small nuke in a bunker near Baghdad and call it Saddam's.

Right. Look folks, I hate Bush too. That doesn't mean that I surrender my logic at the same time. Look at the reaction to Hurricane Katrina and tell me that "the gubmint" is really on top of things. Bush, and everyone that works for him is too stupid to pull something like this off.
 
2007-04-30 04:21:05 PM  
Obviously the ppl who claim that "fire cannot melt steel" have never held a match to a (non-soapy) steel wool pad. It burns, it oxidizes, it's gone!
 
2007-04-30 04:21:10 PM  
HotWingConspiracy: I don't understand. The situations aren't analogous at all. How would this prove or disprove any theory?

The twin towers falling were not analogous to the fire/mesh experiment from Spare Change, either.

The point is that fire and impact can mess up a structure but good. And that Rosie made a questionable choice in developing her new "fangs out insane dyke" personae.
 
2007-04-30 04:21:46 PM  
lajaunie: You'll notice that the concrete roadway that "pancaked down" on the roadway below did not cause the lower freeway to collapse. Nor has the concrete disintegrated into a fine powder.

I certainly would have expected it to, considering that one causeway has roughly the same mass as 30 stories of a skyscraper.
 
2007-04-30 04:21:53 PM  
That fire was nothing compared to when I have to tinkle.
 
2007-04-30 04:22:12 PM  
spleef420: so this would be what, the second time in human history that fire has melted steel?

Yeah, but the first time on the west coast.
 
2007-04-30 04:22:19 PM  
elchip

9) The Death Star had planet-destroying capabilities, as it had previously demostrated with the complete annihilation of the planet of Alderaan. Yet it did not utilize that power to remove the planet of Yavin, which would have provided the Death Star with an unobstructed shot of the moon which housed the rebel base. Instead, the order was given to wait until the Death Star could orbit around Yavin until a clear shot was available. This gave the rebel fighters enough time to mount its successful attack against the Death Star.
 
2007-04-30 04:22:19 PM  
Ah, if I weren't at work, I would totally do that photoshop.
 
2007-04-30 04:23:12 PM  
v=ma ?
 
2007-04-30 04:23:22 PM  
The Jews were buying highway construction futures the day before this happened.
 
2007-04-30 04:23:30 PM  
elchip: Where did you get that from..., 911LooseCredits.org?

/that was funny!
 
2007-04-30 04:24:34 PM  
"The twin towers falling were not analogous to the fire/mesh experiment from Spare Change, either."

Ok. Never watched it.

The point is that fire and impact can mess up a structure but good.

Well yeah. Fire and impact will do a number on a wooden barn too. I wouldn't compare it to a sky scraper though.
 
2007-04-30 04:24:36 PM  
This is comparing apples and oranges:

White-hot 200 foot flames acting on a single truss (and no ability to redistribute the load once weakened.)

No molten metal and certainly no thermate found
No column failure
No evaporation / pulverization of concrete
No "pancake collapse"

In the case of the 2 towers, the fires were much weaker and far less hot. Why did all of the columns fail at the exact same time and the building neatly collapsed into its own footprint? Finally, explain the third building - building 7.
 
2007-04-30 04:24:36 PM  
Bwahahahahhah
 
2007-04-30 04:24:44 PM  
Lajaunie

4. You'll notice that the concrete roadway that "pancaked down" on the roadway below did not cause the lower freeway to collapse. Nor has the concrete disintegrated into a fine powder.


I'd expect that freeways are designed to higher specifications and loads than floors in office buildings. Meaning that they'd be better able to withstand the impact and hold the additional weight without failing.


5. You'll notice the columns were not torn down by the collapse, nor did they evaporate into thin air, rather they are still standing (having only lost the the truss and connectors that held the roadway to them.)


The columns were insulated by thick layers of concrete and they were not in the literal "line of fire" (heat rises as I'm sure you are aware).
 
2007-04-30 04:25:05 PM  
elchip:DO IT! For the sake of all that is good and decent, you must DO IT!
 
2007-04-30 04:25:06 PM  
liberal nutjobs just want an excuse to blame bush for everything bad that happens in this country
 
2007-04-30 04:25:30 PM  
elchip: /worked for John Titor

So you must be getting a kick out of these responses.

(hey, you put it out there...)
 
2007-04-30 04:25:31 PM  
Lee451: That fire was nothing compared to when I have to tinkle.

Well, that'll happen when you fark a girl named "Chastity."
 
2007-04-30 04:25:50 PM  
elchip, I am in total awe. Bravo! That pic is icing on the cake.
 
2007-04-30 04:26:14 PM  
elchip rules Internet with an iron fist. Thread OVER.

/Plus, he's a nerd.
 
2007-04-30 04:26:22 PM  
Lajaunie, thanks for the cut and paste directly from Alex Jone's web site.

heh
 
2007-04-30 04:26:29 PM  
Herr Konditioner, why don't you ask an actual, qualified structural engineer to answer your questions instead of making up childish fantasies? One thing the Loose Change liars never do: ask an ACTUAL expert to explain things they don't understand.
 
2007-04-30 04:26:53 PM  
Hilarious! My comfortable view of US governmental power has now been validated, once again I can relax in to the warm tub that is my trust of my leaders, while mocking any who discomfort me with their uncomfortable observations.


War forever! Vote Giuliani, he swore his party could protect us from the next "incident". That's what I'm looking for: "PROTECTION". Dig?
 
2007-04-30 04:26:55 PM  
img102.imageshack.us

where did they come from? indians??
 
2007-04-30 04:27:03 PM  
I saw a Frontline special where the engineer that designed the structure of the towers explained the weaknesses in the design and how the burning fuel melted the steel.

Please tell the the conspiracy theorists don't really believe that crap. It's just a laugh, right? Or a desire to be irritating? Or a political statement?
 
2007-04-30 04:27:18 PM  
orclover: I heard from a very reliable source that there were no j00's anywhere near the overpass when the tanker exploded....

Where was Tatsuma yesterday?
 
2007-04-30 04:27:32 PM  
9) The Death Star had planet-destroying capabilities, as it had previously demostrated with the complete annihilation of the planet of Alderaan. Yet it did not utilize that power to remove the planet of Yavin, which would have provided the Death Star with an unobstructed shot of the moon which housed the rebel base. Instead, the order was given to wait until the Death Star could orbit around Yavin until a clear shot was available. This gave the rebel fighters enough time to mount its successful attack against the Death Star

Because the Death Star was ORBITING Yavin, its destruction would have changed the local gravity situation, with unspecified effects on the death star. Had the Death Star been out of orbit and safely away from the gravity well, it could have destroyed it safely. Also, destroying Yavin would have alerted the rebel fighters to the Empires presence and given them time to attack. Stealth is best in these circumstances.
 
2007-04-30 04:28:06 PM  
Article farked by high government officials. Mulder and Scully, where are you?
 
2007-04-30 04:28:20 PM  
Once again, this steel melted so quickly because it was produced on the west coast. Much like sourdough, conditions have to be just right for it to be good, hard steel. This is becoming tragically apparent on bridges and structures all over the west, as this steel has an approximate melting point of 160oF.
 
2007-04-30 04:28:45 PM  
If fire doesn't melt steel, how do we get it into the shape of beams?
 
2007-04-30 04:28:50 PM  
1) if the US Gov't was insidious and competent enough to pull off the murder of 3000 of its own citizens without leaving anything more than trace bits of questionable "evidence," couldn't they make your pimply ass disappear after giving you Excedrin Headache #357? In other words, if you believed the Government "did" 9/11, the rational thing to do would be to cower in your basement and pretend that you don't know anything.

2)if fire never melts steel, what are steel mills for? Are they secret parties for members of the conspiracy?

And was the end of Terminator 2 a lie?????


Or maybe Rosie thinks that in steel mills they melt the steel via giant electrical wire heaters, like a great big toaster. Or magic. But not fire, or any form of fire.

Rosie: A blacksmith can make steel hot enough to bend easily in a tiny fire he makes in his forge. And he doesn't even need tons and tons of jet fuel, just coal and some bellows.
 
2007-04-30 04:29:33 PM  
Having driven ontop of an overpass on some part of the United States' highway system;
I'm getting a real kick out of these replies.


On an unrelated note. Rock, Paper, and Sciccors have all fled California for thier lives, having realized, at last, that Fire will kill them all.
 
2007-04-30 04:30:44 PM  
Herr Konditioner


In the case of the 2 towers, the fires were much weaker and far less hot.


Proof? Two airliners with fuel tanks full of jet fuel produced fires that weren't as hot as that which resulted from a tanker full of gasoline under an open bridge (exposed to air currents on all sides)? Huh?


Why did all of the columns fail at the exact same time and the building neatly collapsed into its own footprint? Finally, explain the third building - building 7.


The columns failed around the same time because it was a cascading failure. As each column warps and gives (because the strength of steel decreases rapidly as heat is applied...doesn't need to liquify...just warp) the stress is multiplied on the remaining load bearing structures. These structures, presented with larger and larger loads, failed rapidly in turn.

As for falling into its own footprint, first of all if you'd ever seen the site you'd know that was hardly true and secondly all that mass isn't going to easily tip over...gravity pulls it downward and there was no where near enough lateral force or deflection to steer it in another direction.
 
2007-04-30 04:31:19 PM  
platypusjones: where did they come from? indians??

That's what Bush wants you to think. He's always trying to frame minorities.
 
2007-04-30 04:31:27 PM  
MrToast: Please tell the the conspiracy theorists don't really believe that crap. It's just a laugh, right? Or a desire to be irritating? Or a political statement?

All of the above?
 
2007-04-30 04:31:31 PM  
Fire can't melt steel?

How did all those medieval swords get made? They certainly didn't have any modern technology to heat it.
 
2007-04-30 04:32:17 PM  
How did all those medieval swords get made? They certainly didn't have any modern technology to heat it.

A wizard did it.
 
2007-04-30 04:32:18 PM  
You know, 9-11 really hit close to home, in both the figurative and literal sense, but I damned near pissed myself at the hulk hogan pictures....
 
2007-04-30 04:32:42 PM  
lajaunie: "2. Those 200 foot flames were acting on a single support truss that was fastened to the two columns. That truss (and the connectors that fastened it to the columns) represent a quantity of steel that doesn't even equal 1/50th of what would have been found on a single floor of the towers or WTC7. So again, far more heat focused on 1/50th the steel."

And no other flammable materials to hand, whereas the WTC was packed with other flammable materials.

And an unloaded section of overpass - the only thing sitting on it was the truck that was on fire, and most of the weight that had been in that was spilled and burnt off - yet still the overpass collapsed when it was basically completely unloaded.

And the overpass itself was completely undamaged, *except* for the fire damage - whereas each WTC tower had significant structural damage from the unexpected high-speed ingress of a commercial passenger jet.

But, you know, feel free to pick and choose only the facts that seem to support your story, while ignoring everything else.

"4. You'll notice that the concrete roadway that "pancaked down" on the roadway below did not cause the lower freeway to collapse. Nor has the concrete disintegrated into a fine powder."

You'll also notice that the concrete roadway didn't have the weight of dozens of fully loaded floors above it bearing down on it (and adding significant momentum with which to help it pancake the floors below).

You'll further notice that roadways are not built in the same way as buildings (they tend to have rather thicker concrete than the average skyscraper wall, for one thing).

You'll continue by noticing that the roadway didn't have a good thousand feet to fall, smacking into many other roadways on its way down to meet the ground and giving it the opportunity to really get beat up and pulverised.

"5. You'll notice the columns were not torn down by the collapse, nor did they evaporate into thin air, rather they are still standing (having only lost the the truss and connectors that held the roadway to them.)"

You'll also notice that the columns aren't over a thousand feet tall, and didn't have the debris from a collapsing building smashing into them to destroy most of their height.
 
2007-04-30 04:33:21 PM  
Bill_Wick's_Friend: A wizard did it.

Well the Lady in the Lake helped...
 
2007-04-30 04:33:26 PM  
How did all those medieval swords get made? They certainly didn't have any modern technology to heat it.

Christendom's blades were forged by the Glory and Grace of Almighty God.

Everyone else hammered theirs out in the Fires of Hell, which are by definition supernatural fires, and therefore don't count.
 
2007-04-30 04:33:40 PM  
Herr Konditioner

Why did all of the columns fail at once?

They didn't. They failed in successive order as mass, increasing with each floor's collapse by a factor of that equal to an entire floor, slammed down onto them from above.

Why did it collapse into it's own neat footprint?

Are you seriously this stupid? Because the j00s turned on the machine that makes gravity pull in a straight line toward the center of the Earth, unlike other days when the machine is being serviced.
 
2007-04-30 04:33:52 PM  
Because the Death Star was ORBITING Yavin, its destruction would have changed the local gravity situation, with unspecified effects on the death star.

Actually, because of conservation of momentum and mass, the gravity of the debris cluster formally known as Yavin would exhibit the same gravity effects on the Death Star as Yavin itself. Therefore there was no reason to not shoot through Yavin, unless Lord Vader wanted the Death Star destroyed by the rebels so his buddies could get more high paying government contracts to build another Death Star.

What else did Lord Vader know? Anyone who disagrees with me is a sheeple.
 
2007-04-30 04:35:42 PM  
The theory that the towers were brought down by something other than the planes probably doesn't hold much water, but such implausibility hardly dismisses plenty of other discrepancies about the official story of September 11th.
 
2007-04-30 04:35:49 PM  
narstoi.com
 
2007-04-30 04:36:15 PM  
SusanIvananova: "Did Bush make 9/11 happen by shooting a missile at the Pentagon, claiming it was a plane, throwing two actual planes at WTC but have the destruction accomplished by explosives cached within the buildings, shooting down a flight over rural Pennsylvania, and fabricating several reams of records? No. Don't be a dumbass."

Don't you be the dumbass. Why not be a citizen and look in to why your FBI was ignoring its own agents' warnings in the run up to the attacks, why those incompetents were promoted, why FBI whistleblowers have been gagged, why FEMA was given control over the crime scene, why Congress was asked to limit the investigation, why said investigation was underfunded, why the National Security Advisor seemed to know nothing about terrorists and their tactics, why the defining attack of the 21st Century just happened to occur when US air defenses were compromised by extensive drills, etc.

No tinfoil hat needed. Just a desire not to see a great country go down the tubes thanks to a gang of greedy, venal sociopaths.
 
2007-04-30 04:36:30 PM  
You know what I've never had a "truther" explain to me?

If 9/11 was a government job where GWB masterminded a plan to plant explosives in the two towers, plus more in WTC 7, then fire a missile into the Pentagon and finally kamikaze another airliner in order to gain public sympathy so he could start a war with Iraq...

Why didn't he plant WMD's in downtown Baghdad?
 
2007-04-30 04:36:30 PM  
Notice there weren't any Jews around when it happened? Hmm?
 
2007-04-30 04:37:03 PM  
elchip: Other possible theories:

WAS IT BARACK OBAMA?


Is this an actual wikipedia entry?!
 
2007-04-30 04:38:38 PM  
Because the Death Star was ORBITING Yavin, its destruction would have changed the local gravity situation, with unspecified effects on the death star.

yes - but the deathstar was outside Yavin's Roche radius.

(just playing along)
 
2007-04-30 04:39:30 PM  
For those who don't understand the pancake theory, observe the following diagram:
i21.photobucket.com
 
2007-04-30 04:40:50 PM  
Diamond Dave: "If 9/11 was a government job where GWB masterminded a plan to plant explosives in the two towers, plus more in WTC 7, then fire a missile into the Pentagon and finally kamikaze another airliner in order to gain public sympathy so he could start a war with Iraq...

Why didn't he plant WMD's in downtown Baghdad?"

Diamond Dave, this isn't a Hollywood Movie, where you are either a good guy or a bad guy.

First of all, Bush et al really thought Sadaam had WMDs, since their cronies sold him said WMDs in the 1980s.

Next, Bush wouldn't have had to plan anything regarding 9-11. His Saudi buddies could have taken care of all the details. Don't hear too much about who funded that little operation, do ya?
 
2007-04-30 04:40:53 PM  
Donald_McRonald: observe the following diagram:

It all makes sense now...
 
2007-04-30 04:41:19 PM  
DiamondDave: Why didn't he plant WMD's in downtown Baghdad?

Seems simple enough for the mastermind that came up with the tower caper. Yet, somehow, the operatives couldn't quite pull it off, even with the resources of the entire government to hand, on something the administration would dearly love to prove. Wait, they didn't want to flush out Bin Laden too soon. WTF?
 
2007-04-30 04:41:35 PM  
cryptozoophiliac
Don't you be the dumbass. Why not be a citizen and look in to why your FBI was ignoring its own agents' warnings in the run up to the attacks, why those incompetents were promoted, why FBI whistleblowers have been gagged, why FEMA was given control over the crime scene, why Congress was asked to limit the investigation, why said investigation was underfunded, why the National Security Advisor seemed to know nothing about terrorists and their tactics, why the defining attack of the 21st Century just happened to occur when US air defenses were compromised by extensive drills, etc.


And herein lies one of the flaws with government conspiracy theories. Pretty soon, the conspriacry is so big that it involves roughly 100,000 people, but no one involved ever comes forward.

The government can't even pick up my trash correctly, I doubt they could pull this off.
 
2007-04-30 04:42:26 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Of course. Because believing that Bushies are not guilty of this particular charge is exactly the same thing as wholeheartedly supporting their agenda. Obviously.

I don't think you did 9/11, either. Does that mean I'm a mindless sheeple slave of Lord Crypto?
 
2007-04-30 04:43:11 PM  
SusanIvanova: Did Bush make 9/11 happen

by ignoring all warnings and intelligence in the preceding months? Maybe.
 
2007-04-30 04:43:52 PM  
DiamondDave: Why didn't he plant WMD's in downtown Baghdad?

If your not convinced by the mountains of facts and science that the 9/11 truthers are nutjobs, this seals the deal. It would be infinitely easier to plant WMDs in Iraq than to pull off the 9/11 conspiracy the nuts claimed happened.
 
2007-04-30 04:45:01 PM  
Just so that everyone knows, burning jet fuel is more than capable of melting steel. I've taken part in around two dozen jet engine failure investigations (really getting a kick out of these replies) and I've seen many superalloys with much higher heat tolerances than conventional steels charred, melted, and mangled beyond almost all recognition by jet fuel. Also, you don't need to melt steel in order to collapse a structure. Even at as low as half the melting point of most metals you see a major drop in many load-bearing properties which could easily cause fracture.

So in conclusion, the "steel doesn't melt that low" conspiracy theorists are retards, which I'm sure you already knew.

/Materials Engineer
 
2007-04-30 04:45:03 PM  
shipofthesun: Wait, they didn't want to flush out Bin Laden too soon. WTF?

He was hanging on to him in a secret prison until late October 2004 to win the election...
 
2007-04-30 04:45:17 PM  
img239.imageshack.us

My official, very sad, entry

/woo mspaint!
 
2007-04-30 04:45:25 PM  
why FEMA was given control over the crime scene

Do you even know what FEMA is an acronym for?
 
2007-04-30 04:45:33 PM  
Rapmaster2000, you eediot, all the government had to do in this case was 1. have foreknowledge and 2. nothing. I think they were and are capable of that much.

And SusanIvanova, I did indeed do 9-11 by reading Illuminatus! out of sequence the night before.
 
2007-04-30 04:45:35 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

FBI was ignoring its own agents' warnings in the run up to the attacks, why those incompetents were promoted, why FBI whistleblowers have been gagged

Nobody ever accused the FBI of being compitant.

why FEMA was given control over the crime scene

It's not expected for the emergency management agency to be given control over an emergency?

why Congress was asked to limit the investigation, why said investigation was underfunded, why the National Security Advisor seemed to know nothing about terrorists and their tactics

Investigations are irrelevant to the political favor that Bush was able to get from the situation. Why bother?


why the defining attack of the 21st Century just happened to occur when US air defenses were compromised by extensive drills, etc.

How often did extensive drills happen? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? I bet there were "extensive drills" happening on a regular basis. The fact that a drill coincides with the attack, in itself, means nothing.

No tinfoil hat needed. Just a desire not to see a great country go down the tubes thanks to a gang of greedy, venal sociopaths.

Without some concrete facts, it sounds pretty finfoil-hattish to me. Its one thing to ask questions, its another to draw conclusions.
 
2007-04-30 04:45:46 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: Don't you be the dumbass. Why not be a citizen and look in to why your FBI was ignoring its own agents' warnings in the run up to the attacks, why those incompetents were promoted, why FBI whistleblowers have been gagged, why FEMA was given control over the crime scene, why Congress was asked to limit the investigation, why said investigation was underfunded, why the National Security Advisor seemed to know nothing about terrorists and their tactics, why the defining attack of the 21st Century just happened to occur when US air defenses were compromised by extensive drills, etc.

I could hope to laugh harder... but then I would kill puppys if I did.
 
2007-04-30 04:46:01 PM  
From blog server: "Note: Due to server load comments may dissapear during periods of high load."

Hmmm... this is the first time high server load has ever caused comments to dissapear. Something fishy here.

/still trying to get over it
 
2007-04-30 04:46:39 PM  
Where are the Farking engineers? You "melted steel" Farkers are simply ignorant. What is all this shiat about 2700degF?

Standard structural steel starts to soften at about 950degF. It doesn't have to melt. A pool of Gasoline will sustain temperatures of up to 1300degF in open air burning, more than enough to soften the freeway support structure,
 
2007-04-30 04:46:44 PM  
One thing nobody seems to point out is that (and I'm going to ever let them believe that fire can't melt steel... even though it can... ask a blacksmith) the steel in the twin towers didn't have to "MELT". It just had to weaken enough from a jet-liner flying though it and an uncontrolable jet-fuel stoked fire raging in it for the steal to not be able to support the weight above it.

Buildings collapse all the time... not because steel "melted", but becaude the support structures became too weak to do their jobs.

By the way dude, did you notice that black helicopter flying around near your house lately? you'd better get down into the basement for a while.
 
2007-04-30 04:46:45 PM  
Nightjars, why don't you go do a gis for Sibil Edmonds and then get back to me.
 
2007-04-30 04:48:12 PM  
crypto


Don't you be the dumbass. Why not be a citizen and look in to why your FBI was ignoring its own agents' warnings in the run up to the attacks,


Would have an argument if those were the ONLY warnings the FBI received at all. Different time, different strategic priorities (ie threat probabilities), and a hell of a workload. Somewhat like blaming the farmer for not heading the farm hand when told that one of his haystacks has a needle in it.


why those incompetents were promoted,


It's the government. Shiat always rises.


why FBI whistleblowers have been gagged,


Whistleblowers always get nailed...especially if they go public.


why FEMA was given control over the crime scene,


Why not frame that with dates? I remember a lot of agencies working on that site...mostly working on recovering survivors, bodies, and parts.


why Congress was asked to limit the investigation, why said investigation was underfunded,


The same investigation that was so underfunded that they were able to pick through all the debris, classify it, sort it, and examine it all in detail at a site in Jersey using teams of experts?


why the National Security Advisor seemed to know nothing about terrorists and their tactics,


Might have something to do with having less than 5 weeks to prepare before the inauguration due to the Florida scandal. How good were you at your job in the first 9 months?


why the defining attack of the 21st Century just happened to occur when US air defenses were compromised by extensive drills, etc.


The military conducts drills all the time. It actually enhances rather than hinders readiness. In this case, it meant that more National Guard personnel, which makes up the bulk of the 1st Air Force (responsible for CONUS air defense), were on hand.

That and you tell me, in a sky full of thousands of civilian contacts that all look the same, which ones are the hostiles? And how do you discriminate between a low-flying contact and one that hit a building (they both disappeared off the radar screens)?

Your questions have answers...but you just don't like them.
 
2007-04-30 04:48:51 PM  
where is the wreckage from the supposed tanker?!

why weren't the adjacent roads damaged?!

i blame global warming!!!
 
2007-04-30 04:49:09 PM  
Radioactive Ass: He was hanging on to him in a secret prison until late October 2004 to win the election...

Well, the way I heard it was the TVA, as usual, operating on their own agenda, busted him out, just to monkey wrench Bush's plans. Nobody knows why, exactly, but it's the sort of thing the inscrutable TVA is known for in intergalactic circles. You heard me.
 
2007-04-30 04:49:24 PM  
why don't you go do a gis for Sibil Edmonds...

Ummm...OK. did that.

Which image am I supposed to be interested in? The sumo wrestlers? The hampster?
 
2007-04-30 04:50:22 PM  
apachevoyeur: Something fishy here.

Yep. There were some doozies in there that are gone now. To be fair that disclaimer was there well before this went green.
 
2007-04-30 04:51:35 PM  
To all you haters, FEMA is indeed in charge of emergencies. But not evidence collection.

Yes the FBI is incompetent. But that still doesn't explain why Sibil Edmonds remains under gag, in spite of having made serious and credible accusations at the FBI of espionage, money-laundering and 9-11 cover ups.

You would think that actual, real Americans (you know, the kind that actually care about America, not just their pocket book) would be concerned about this.

But then, such Americans appear to be shouted down by others who dont' seem to care at all that their country is turning in to a pile of crap.
 
2007-04-30 04:51:37 PM  
Pocket Ninja

This work?

img107.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 04:51:58 PM  
Ouch! Burned with the hotlink.
 
2007-04-30 04:52:06 PM  
I actually feel guilty for wasting work time reading some of the idiocy posted on those "truther" sites. Jeez and Ugh.
 
2007-04-30 04:52:43 PM  
elchip:Also, it's rumored that Darth Vader's DAUGHTER is one of the leaders of the rebellion!

I heard that she was outed as a homosexual during a debate.
 
2007-04-30 04:53:15 PM  
This is by no means the first structural failure caused by fire. We got a fun sideshow the first few days of CIE 443 (introduction to structural steel design) that showed a bunch of structural failures. One of them was the storage area of a paper mill that burned causing the Wide flange sections to buckle and sag. Last I checked paper did not burn hot enough to melt steel either. There is a reason that engineers are as a rule remaining silent about 9-11...

/kick out of all these replys ect.
 
2007-04-30 04:54:02 PM  
Yes the FBI is incompetent. But that still doesn't explain why Sibil Edmonds remains under gag, in spite of having made serious and credible accusations at the FBI of espionage, money-laundering and 9-11 cover ups..


Maybe....wait for it.....she is incorrect in her assumptions? Maybe they told her to knock it off and she wouldn't? Maybe she is as nutty as you are and they just told her to shut up about it?
 
2007-04-30 04:55:28 PM  
Devin172: your kind really pisses me off, because your version of adult, sensible patriotic reasoning is to shrug and say: "hey look, their not evil, their incompetent! So shut up already, you lunatics!"

Pathetic. You should hand in your citizenship and find somewere that accepts spineless stems for citizens.
 
2007-04-30 04:55:38 PM  
anyone who actually believes this conspiracy sh*t should be executed immediately

/will clean the gene pool a little bit
 
2007-04-30 04:57:03 PM  
crypto


To all you haters, FEMA is indeed in charge of emergencies. But not evidence collection.


Because we needed more proof to show that airliners hit the World Trade Center? We have that on video...not to mention millions of witnesses.


Yes the FBI is incompetent. But that still doesn't explain why Sibil Edmonds remains under gag, in spite of having made serious and credible accusations at the FBI of espionage, money-laundering and 9-11 cover ups.


And you think whatever she knows would reveal government officials were complicit or culpable in the WTC attack. That's baseless speculation on your part.


You would think that actual, real Americans (you know, the kind that actually care about America, not just their pocket book) would be concerned about this.


Apparently real Americans who have already decided what they will think. When are going to stop pretending that you are open to discussion and just admit you will either ignore points that challenge your view or twist things so that everything fits into the picture you desire?


But then, such Americans appear to be shouted down by others who dont' seem to care at all that their country is turning in to a pile of crap.


Stupid intelligent free-thinking Americans who came to reasonable and logical conclusions. How dare they get in the way of your warped fantasies.
 
2007-04-30 04:57:51 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

Things that like bother me, yes. Don't think that because I don't buy into these conspiracy theories that I am any less disturbed by the way that our government has changed since 9/11. I just find that Occam's Razor is a pretty reliable way of looking at life, and in the absence of very compelling evidence, the official account of events seems less insane than the "inside job" proponents' account.
 
2007-04-30 04:58:24 PM  
cryptozoophiliac
If you knew the difference between "they're" and "their", I'd be more willing to believe you aren't a crackpot...
 
2007-04-30 04:58:48 PM  
For a while I was on the fence with the 9/11 conspiracy theories but after this fire, that finally convinced me that the 9/11 truthers are totally wrong.
 
2007-04-30 04:58:53 PM  
I love how truthers set the bar for evidence that it wasnt a conspiracy impossibly high, yet they believe everything some blogger posted as gospel. Then they have the nerve to claim the public are sheep. Truthers are the real sheep. wanting so desperately to believe something without any credible evidence what so ever (all evidence that has been brought forth has been absolutely destroyed time and time again).

Truthers are such sheep. they remind me of the nonconformist conforming emo kids
 
2007-04-30 04:59:16 PM  
How exactly is it a warped fantasy to want to know why incompetent FBI leaders were promoted after overseeing the worst national security screw-up in history?

Wouldya like to explain that one there, Edith? You know, with all your reason and logic?
 
2007-04-30 04:59:40 PM  
either you believe or dont believe.

There are things that the normal citizen (like me and most of you) will never know. even if we dig and try to find the truth.

So do you, do the research and spend your life trying to prove all the things you believe... ? or do you just live your life to the fullest and have fun and not be paranoid?
 
2007-04-30 05:00:17 PM  
For a while I was on the fence with the 9/11 conspiracy theories but after this fire, that finally convinced me that the 9/11 truthers are totally wrong.


Seriously?

You were waiting for an event unlike 9/11 to prove that 9/11 happened?
 
2007-04-30 05:00:21 PM  
janks369:

Nah, they're a cheap source of mostly harmless entertainment. It would be one thing if they had nice, straightforward conspiracy theories, like "Bush paid Osama bin Laden to have his agents do it". I wouldn't actually believe it, but it's relatively plausible as such things go, and wouldn't require mind-bendingly silly beliefs like "fire can't melt steel".

As with anything else, conspiracy nuts, keep it simple. Even if the blood is on Bush's hands, it probably got there in a non-ridiculous fashion.
 
2007-04-30 05:01:55 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

You have never worked in any major governmental or non governmental organization have you? Incompetence always gets promoted, the upper echelons of every organization is filled with morons totally incapable of doing their job.
 
2007-04-30 05:02:11 PM  
Dude...the Bush administration didn't even need to plant WMDs, they could have just done it here in the desert on a movie set like the "moon landing". Unfortunately, destroying two (three) of the world's most famous buildings and having them fall into their own footprints had to be done live and on the air. Just like Oswald's shooting.

/16 acres of debris, sometimes 40-60' deep.
 
2007-04-30 05:02:18 PM  
Donald_McRonald

My perception of what is a bunny and what is a pancake are way off...
 
2007-04-30 05:02:40 PM  
I heard that due to Oakland's continuing suckage in all things that are sports, it finally manifested into an underground vortex that caused the collapse.
 
2007-04-30 05:02:42 PM  
If you look closely at the picture, it wasn't a plane that was flown into the bridge...

home.comcast.net
 
2007-04-30 05:03:11 PM  
crypto


your kind really pisses me off, because your version of adult, sensible patriotic reasoning is to shrug and say: "hey look, their not evil, their incompetent! So shut up already, you lunatics!"


As opposed to what, automatically assuming they have a sinister motive that involved tacitly allowing an incredibly destructive act of terrorism? And then assuming that career civil servants and politicians, who in similar circumstances would attempt to cover their asses, are now acting to hide their complicity in the plot?


And then you interpret my responses as some sort of acceptance of their poor conduct. As if I am some blind patriotic supporter instead of someone who sees the massive holes and fantastic leaps of logic you are making with little or no rhyme or reason.


Pathetic. You should hand in your citizenship and find somewere that accepts spineless stems for citizens.


I've seen you post in many of these threads. You studiously ignore any points refuting your assertions. You twist facts and statements and ignore reason, logic, and likelihood in order to maintain the fiction you view as reality. I wouldn't be so quick to call for someone else to hand in their citizenship if I were you.
 
2007-04-30 05:03:16 PM  
i129.photobucket.com

Oh, wait, I see the problem....
 
2007-04-30 05:04:47 PM  
Yeah, that's me: I'm a total crackpot.

Giuliani and Bush are in charge when the worst compromise in American defense occurs. They are both lionized for their roles.

Previously in our saga, a bunch of intrepid FBI field agents are astounded and dismayed that their warnings of Arab flight students who are acting suspicious are being ignored.

In fact, they are so alarmed and dismayed that they go around the FBI to the CIA.

Later, the Bin Laden family is represented at a Carlyle Group meeting with George H.W. Bush. Perfectly normal world we live in, where our President's family is friends with Super Villain's family. That's not strange. Not at all.
 
2007-04-30 05:06:15 PM  
Ron Jeremy is still fat.
 
2007-04-30 05:06:37 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: ....Just a desire not to see a great country go down the tubes thanks to a gang of greedy, venal sociopaths.

What did the T-Birds ever do to you? Or is it the Scorpions that are destroying our country?
 
2007-04-30 05:06:38 PM  
As for falling into its own footprint, first of all if you'd ever seen the site you'd know that was hardly true and secondly all that mass isn't going to easily tip over...gravity pulls it downward and there was no where near enough lateral force or deflection to steer it in another direction.

Well said. Anyone who can't understand this is either a retard or 4 years old.
 
2007-04-30 05:06:57 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: Later, the Bin Laden family is represented at a Carlyle Group meeting with George H.W. Bush. Perfectly normal world we live in, where our President's family is friends with Super Villain's family. That's not strange. Not at all.

Good god man, do you live in a comic book?
 
2007-04-30 05:07:08 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: Giuliani and Bush are in charge when the worst compromise in American defense occurs.

I'd say Pearl Harbor was a worse compromise.
 
2007-04-30 05:07:13 PM  
crypto


How exactly is it a warped fantasy to want to know why incompetent FBI leaders were promoted after overseeing the worst national security screw-up in history?

Wouldya like to explain that one there, Edith? You know, with all your reason and logic?


You're right. Government officers never get promoted after major failures on their watch. I take it you are new to the study of bureaucracy and politics.

Ergo, they must have been involved in some massive betrayal or sinister plot involving the destruction of the WTC.

Care to bridge that logical gap Chicken Little?
 
2007-04-30 05:08:28 PM  
llewyr


Good god man, do you live in a comic book?


That would explain so much.
 
2007-04-30 05:08:51 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Since when was the bin laden family totally evil? You realize there are 40-50 children, many of them are quite successful in the business world and have no intentions of doing evil things...


Yes you are a total crackpot
 
2007-04-30 05:09:07 PM  
tweekster:
"You have never worked in any major governmental or non governmental organization have you? Incompetence always gets promoted, the upper echelons of every organization is filled with morons totally incapable of doing their job."

Yeah, that's fine and all. When the incompetence doesn't involve the kick-off of a WAR, and an overthrow of the Constiution. When it does, I think it is the responsibility of the citizenry to demand answers and accountability, and not just through elections.
 
2007-04-30 05:09:39 PM  
Later, the Bin Laden family is represented at a Carlyle Group meeting with George H.W. Bush. Perfectly normal world we live in, where our President's family is friends with Super Villain's family. That's not strange. Not at all.

If you have ever met my cousin, you would understand. Just because he is a Bin Laden, doesn't mean he is a terrorist.

My cousin is a douchebag with a capital douche! Doing time in CA, but what does that have to do with the rest of my family?
 
2007-04-30 05:10:24 PM  
img130.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 05:11:58 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Yeah, that's fine and all. When the incompetence doesn't involve the kick-off of a WAR, and an overthrow of the Constiution. When it does, I think it is the responsibility of the citizenry to demand answers and accountability, and not just through elections.

That is not the topic at hand though, you just changed arguments to divert attention away. People are not talking about hte war itself, they are talking about the conspiracy regarding 9/11 the war was a result, but has nothing to do with the capabilities/incompetence of government.
 
2007-04-30 05:12:12 PM  
Attention truthers:

Go to colonial williamsburg or something like it, or if your town has some nutty old-fashioned blacksmith, go see him.

Watch him heat iron in a fire, then bend it easily by hitting it with a hammer. (and before you complain that iron isn't steel remind yourself that most swords, for example a Japanese katana, are in fact made of steel and were also shaped with hammers, forges, and brute strength)

Note that the metal does not melt, but does become softer as it heats. Contemplate the idea that 10-20 stories' worth of skyscraper weighs a lot and can probably exert more pressure than a guy with a hammer.

Fun Demonstration to Try At Home!
Put some string cheese in the freezer overnight. In the morning, make a little tower by balancing a book on top of the hardened string cheese. Wait a while for the string cheese to defrost. THAT'S AMAZING! the cheese isn't nearly hot enough to melt, but still it got too soft to hold up the book!

I'd mock you more, but I am tired.
 
2007-04-30 05:12:58 PM  
So let's review: the Bush Administration is in bed with the Saudis, the oil and armaments industries, and has cynically used 9-11 to attain its foreign and domestic goals.

But remains off the list of possbile complicity in 9-11 because....well...because...well....you know, they are too incompetent!! Yeah that's it. But they were competent enought to form a blue ribbon panel whose conclusions about 9-11 are also beyond reproach.

And I'm the nutjob.
 
2007-04-30 05:13:35 PM  



Yeah, that's me: I'm a total crackpot.

Giuliani and Bush are in charge when the worst compromise in American defense occurs. They are both lionized for their roles.



Care to explain what role Guiliani plays in America's defense? I wasn't aware New York City had air defenses (hadn't since the Nike batteries were shut down).


Previously in our saga, a bunch of intrepid FBI field agents are astounded and dismayed that their warnings of Arab flight students who are acting suspicious are being ignored.


Hindsight is 20/20. Do you have any idea the amount of chatter that happens on a day to day basis?


In fact, they are so alarmed and dismayed that they go around the FBI to the CIA.


CIA has no jurisdiction in the United States, and is in fact barred from operating inside U.S. borders. But do go on.


Later, the Bin Laden family is represented at a Carlyle Group meeting with George H.W. Bush. Perfectly normal world we live in, where our President's family is friends with Super Villain's family. That's not strange. Not at all.


Bin Laden's family, which has had little contact with him over the years, is obscenely wealthy. It's a small world up at the top so can't say I'm surprised that they had contact...especially through something like the Carlyle Group.
 
2007-04-30 05:13:47 PM  
Mike Ruppert of Fromthewilderness.com thinks that 911 Truth is a big diversion created specifically to discredit the 911 conspiracy investigators by launching them off on one semi-plausible but ultimately fruitless wild goose chase after another.
 
2007-04-30 05:14:04 PM  
that was pretty funny. best "don't hot-link us" I've seen yet.
 
2007-04-30 05:14:27 PM  
I actually drove right by that sunday morning. (3:30AM is considered sunday morning and no longer saturday night correct?)

the collapsed part was above the fire. the burning tanker was on the lower section that did not collapse. While i was driving by there was a 20 foot wall of solid flame, with bursts flaring up to 15 feet above the second deck now and then.

the tanker that crashed was carrying over 8 thousand gallons of unleaded fuel.

That section of the freeway is called the "maze" for a reason. there are 3 different freeways converging on that point. lanes veering off with little to no notice as to where they go, its easy to almost miss your turn ending up on the very wrong freeway. California Highway Patrol says there was evidence the tanker was driving too fast, changed lanes rapidly, overturned the vehicle and it caught fire when he hit the guardrail.

the real crazy part is the driver climbed out before explosion, ran down the ramp and to a gas station, called for a cab to take him to hospital. second degree burns on face, arms and legs.
 
2007-04-30 05:15:09 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

You like to make it up as you go along, who here claimed that the 9-11 commission was perfect? No one, stop pulling things out of your ass.


Not only are you a nutjob, you are a liar too. and it is fairly obvious why, you hate bush so much you wont be bothered by facts to make sure everyone else hates him too.
 
2007-04-30 05:15:18 PM  
This thread needs more chicken wire...

nightafternight.blogs.com
 
2007-04-30 05:15:39 PM  
TryinToThink: My perception of what is a bunny and what is a pancake are way off...

I'm glad I was able to open your eyes.
 
2007-04-30 05:15:41 PM  
SO: BUSH AND THE FBI ARE INCOMPETENT. YET IT IS THEIR NARRATIVE ABOUT 9-11 THAT YOU ARE FAITHFULLY PARROTING.

FTW.
 
2007-04-30 05:16:13 PM  
elchip


I don't think Pearl Harbor was as bad.


Depends on your view of how important the battle line is. At the time, before the significance of aircraft carriers became widely known, it was viewed as a disaster. The only major force capable of keeping the IJN from the West Coast (according to 1940's naval strategy) was pretty much gutted.
 
2007-04-30 05:17:46 PM  
9/11 may have been Bush's attempt at a conspiracy, but Bush Sr. is still the master of conspiracies. Just look at what he was able to pull off!

Click here for the ultimate in conspiracies!
 
2007-04-30 05:18:08 PM  
It's not that there haven't been horrific secret government conspiracies before (see: The Final Solution). It's just that the type of government that is required to pull off the perfect murder of 3000 citizens is also the type of government that doesn't allow any of its citizens to publicize that conspiracy. Freedom of speech and of the press tend to make such conspiracies impossible, and despite the Patriot Act, it's clear that pretty much anyone is still allowed to put up any old website with any wild accusations against the government they prefer.

Sophie Scholl was sent to the guillotine for circulating anonymous flyers that criticized Hitler. Dylan Avery, on the other hand, makes money off the "Truther" theories and walks around free, and his continuing existence pretty much disproves every one of his theories.
 
2007-04-30 05:19:52 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

actually people are parroting what every credible reporter and news organization is saying and has been for a while now. Not to mention every intelligence agency around the world that had even looked at 9/11.

Why is it that no credible documentaries exist that prove anything but the "official" story says (minus a few inconsistencies that are largely irrelevant)
 
2007-04-30 05:22:39 PM  
Someone should just build two towers and ram two planes into them to see what happens. Yeah.
 
2007-04-30 05:22:53 PM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2007-04-30 05:23:00 PM  
I think Submitter doesn't quite appreciate the amount of blind faith that said nutjobs have in their tinfoil hats.

This will be about as effective as pointing out dinosaurs to a Creationist.
 
2007-04-30 05:23:35 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Just blame the Jews and get it over with.
 
2007-04-30 05:23:47 PM  
crunchyfist It's called spalling but I have a feeling you knew that already. :P
 
2007-04-30 05:23:58 PM  
Lee 451: Obviously the ppl who claim that "fire cannot melt steel" have never held a match to a (non-soapy) steel wool pad. It burns, it oxidizes, it's gone!

lee, lay off the crack rock man! what you doing with brillow and lighters?
 
2007-04-30 05:27:47 PM  
For the record, I do not hate Bush, only what his administration has done to my country.

And I fail to see why his administration is given a pass for 9-11. Making excuses is the quickest road to dissolution. It might be comforting to some childlike component in your conciousness to ridicule the easiest targets in the 9-11 truth movement, to accuse patriots of lying and to accept incompetence in your leadership, but it doesn't bode well for the future of the republic.
 
2007-04-30 05:29:07 PM  
Snakeophelia: ..Dylan Avery, on the other hand, makes money off the "Truther" theories and walks around free, and his continuing existence pretty much disproves every one of his theories.


But see, by letting him walk free, they are just tricking you even more. I mean, come on; use your head...
 
2007-04-30 05:29:42 PM  
Trusses. Spalling. What idiots are those that think this is a conspiracy.

Trusses kill people; in fact, there are entire towns that have ordinances in place label buildings with big stone signs if they contain truss roofs. The gusset plates on wooden trusses suck ass when heated in a housefire... imagine what happens when a truck is burning under trusses holding up concrete.

Spalling boils popcorn from the insi.. oh wait I meant concrete. Same difference... it's still a bleve either way. :P
 
2007-04-30 05:29:44 PM  
I don't buy the conspiracy stuff, but this collapse really doesn't prove or disprove anything about the WTC. The people gloating about this are being really obnoxious about it. You made your point after one post.
 
2007-04-30 05:29:44 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: And I fail to see why his administration is given a pass for 9-11. Making excuses is the quickest road to dissolution. It might be comforting to some childlike component in your conciousness to ridicule the easiest targets in the 9-11 truth movement, to accuse patriots of lying and to accept incompetence in your leadership, but it doesn't bode well for the future of the republic.

If you're not a thermite guy, what exactly do you think happened?
 
2007-04-30 05:33:21 PM  
First of all, Bush didn't do shiat. The people who put Bush into power did it. You really think Chimpy is in charge of anything? As for 9/11, I doubt the government did it, but I bet they knew it was coming and didn't stop it.

If the United States was really under attack, then why didn't the Secret Service take Bush away to a safe place? "Airplanes hijacked, run into buildings, aimed at DC... eh, just let the president sit there in a public school where everyone knows he was going to be, he'll be
fine."
 
2007-04-30 05:33:31 PM  
i have my own conspiracy theory regarding 9/11: al quaeda and related flew two planes into WTC (which later collapsed due to structural failure, steel doesn't have to melt to collapse, just weaken) and one into Pentagon, with the 4th possibly being shot down, over 3000 people killed

the government needs a united war front, and rather than give the people anger over government fark ups (with possibly gov't fark up over the plane in Pennsylvania which they may have had little knowledge of the conditions on the plane, one of those after-the-fact "doh"'s, who knows maybe the passengers FAILED and the gov't had no choice but to shoot it down?) they cover up whatever problems led to it all and instead focus on who did it, driving two wars: Afghanistan and the covert economic/military/political campaign against terrorist groups and regimes in central asia and the middle east (related to Israel), before driving a third war intended to establish America's new hegemony (their idea being permanent success) in Arabia: Iraq

if they admitted how much they farked up, they probably would've been impeached or would lose any sympathy from the population and thus making their ability to function impossible

but unfortunately for them their successes didn't change the problems that led to 9/11 in the first place (oversteering mistakes), and the same tactics used to keep the presidency and gov't intact after 9/11 are being used in regards to current (bigger) fark up of Iraq

it's like a person who say operates a piece of machinery, the machinery requires constant attention to every component, the operator focuses on components 1-5, but miss component 6, which fails and causes the machine to overheat and explode... that person, rather than admitting failure, focuses on fixing the machine (as they see is the best way to solve the situation, but the thing is there wouldn't be a situation if they had paid attention to component 6), that said you should still blame the individual for the problem in the first place as well as blaming the failure of component 6 and the chain-reaction that led to the explosion, in this example firing them and having somebody else fix things, but in an attempt to save themselves (which by rationalization is saying "in order to fix the problem") they cover up that component 6 fact, making the whole thing seem like a genuine anomaly

when it isn't an anomaly at all

9/11 wasn't an anomaly, neither is the insurgency in Iraq

that's the only conspiracy about this whole damn decade
 
2007-04-30 05:35:41 PM  
Question:

Admittedly, I've been out of touch for a while, however, I recall opponents to the war in Iraq saying that it was all about lowering gas prices by taking over the lucrative Iraqi fields and putting more oil in the supply?

Why then did I just pay $2.87 today to fill up?
 
2007-04-30 05:35:50 PM  
Paedophile_Deluxe: I have no idea. But I do know that a crime has been cynically exploited and inflated into an undeclared and perpetual war by persons with inherent conflicts of interest, given their ties to the oil and arms industries.

If I had to pitch an alternative theory, it would probably involve Islamic fundamentalist patsies with Saudi or Pakistani funding, and a deliberately compromised American security network. See? I didn't even have to include the Mossad or the "dancing Israelis".

A lot of actors here had a vested interest in seeing a war. Both the Jihadists and the Bushies, come to think of it.
 
2007-04-30 05:36:28 PM  
For the record, I do not hate Bush, only what his administration has done to my country.

Bush is also President of SuperCrazyConspiracyland?
 
2007-04-30 05:36:42 PM  
stonicus: well most obviously, he wasnt in DC so why would the secret service be concerned about planes aimed at DC?
 
2007-04-30 05:36:59 PM  
AdamK....good job.
 
2007-04-30 05:39:09 PM  
crypto: what's really different now?

We have a PATRIOT act, a deficit again, politics that are a bit less civil than they were a decade ago, and a needless foreign war. Admittedly this needless foreign war is costlier than any war in a long time, but if you look back we've probably had (on average) one needless war per administration. The Patriot Act is almost certainly unconstitutional, but frankly half of the laws (or more) passed in the last 150 years would have been unconstitutional if the SC hadn't decided that Article 1, section 8, clause 18 completely farking negates the 10th amendment. If you look at the grievances against George III of Britain in the Declaration of Independence, almost every one of them could be leveled at the U.S. government at least as far back as LBJ with the Great Society and Vietnam. You perceive that America is catastrophically losing its liberties all at once. I say it's been a slow march for a long time, and this is only a little speed bump.

Each party wants your liberties. GOP lawmakers want to focus on your right to dissent and to certain types of immoral behavior. The Dems would rather focus on your economic rights and your right to do things that aren't safe. Either way they get rolled back, slowly but surely.
 
2007-04-30 05:39:25 PM  
elchip:

Then why have most oil contracts gone to NON US companies???
 
2007-04-30 05:39:40 PM  
Tweekster, because supposedly they didn't, at the specific "my pet goat moment" know 100% how many planes were hijacked and where all of them were headed.

As far as inside job, again, I don't think it was an inside job, just that the "insiders" knew it was coming. Like FDR knowing Pearl Harbor was coming. He didn't do it, but let it happen so he could go to war. Sounds kinda familiar.
 
2007-04-30 05:40:03 PM  
The governments blood lust has no end. Check out this.
Unfastened Coins
 
2007-04-30 05:41:41 PM  
crypto: Lying? No, I think truthers are generally sincere, if somewhat deluded.

And I give Bush a free pass on 9/11 because the overwhelming body of evidence says that he wasn't involved and didn't know about this specific attack in advance (yeah, he knew OBL was up to something -- there's a big difference between "this guy is going to do something" and "this guy is going to hijack four planes and blow up important buildings on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 8:45am eastern").

Now, what he has done before and after 9/11 -- a stupid, costly, bloody war, abdridgement of due process, an ever-more powerful, approaching unchecked, executive branch, governmental secrecy, large-scale corruption, incompetent leadership, and dismal economic and social policy -- he doesn't get a free pass for those. He's a horrible, horrible president with serious tyrant potential, and I can't wait to be rid of him.

But he didn't blow up WTC.
 
2007-04-30 05:41:57 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz:

You left out the part about Habeas Corpus being trashed, and how US citizens can now be detained by the government without charges or legal counsel indefinitely.

But that's not the point here, the point is: OMG look at the conspiracy nutjobs run because a road collapsed 1!!!!
 
2007-04-30 05:42:04 PM  
stonicus:

It is debatable what FDR knew and what he could have done about it. We supposidly knew planes were going to be used in attacks..just not when, where, or what.

We had abundant warnings, actually we had soo many warnings people stopped taking it seriously.
 
2007-04-30 05:42:23 PM  
All these 9/11 conspiracy theories later and I'm still of the same opinion: I wish our government really was that efficient and effective. Why must life be as exciting as a Hollywood movie?
 
2007-04-30 05:44:57 PM  
elchip: /worked for John Titor

Radioactive Ass: So you must be getting a kick out of these responses.

No, but he will be.
 
2007-04-30 05:45:02 PM  
SusanIvanova, I don't think GW blew up the WTCs. I think his FBI deliberately whistled and looked the other way while our enemies plotted.

Why would they do this? Incompetence is what people here seem to believe. I'm not so sure, given the amount of money involved in having a new military industrial paradigm, readymade on cue to replace lucrative Cold War spending.
 
2007-04-30 05:45:27 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

all of those horrible things you have brought up that Bush has done since 9/11 has nothing to do with proving that bush was directly or indirectly involved in 9/11

He seized the opportunity to push through legislation like any politician would have done. But none of that has ANYTHING to do with 9/11 being a conspiracy. That only gives weight to potential motivation but not proof that it was a conspiracy the way the truthers like to fabricate it was.
 
2007-04-30 05:47:26 PM  
I agree with tweekster, nothing Bush has done post-9/11 point to wether he did or didn't do anything on 9/11... but it does point to whether he is idealogically capable of it, or capable of turning a blind eye to it, and it points to Hell Yes!
 
2007-04-30 05:48:04 PM  
tweekster:
"all of those horrible things you have brought up that Bush has done since 9/11 has nothing to do with proving that bush was directly or indirectly involved in 9/11

He seized the opportunity to push through legislation like any politician would have done. But none of that has ANYTHING to do with 9/11 being a conspiracy. That only gives weight to potential motivation but not proof that it was a conspiracy the way the truthers like to fabricate it was."

But sweetheart, 9-11 was a conspiracy. You're just on the side that believes that Bush and his associates version of the conspiracy is the correct one. And this in spite of all the rest of his shady dealings.
 
2007-04-30 05:49:43 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

Did the FBI have reason to give the evidence about plane hijackings more credence and a closer look than all of the other business it has to attend to? Sometimes they probably have more leads than they can run down. Somebody chose the wrong ones for extra attention. It's tragic, but it's not a plot. They get a lot of unfiltered data, and each analyst is a petty king of his own little bureaucratic kingdom, each convinced that his data is the more important, and each vying for the attention of the superiors. It's a lot of crap to sort through for the FBI to find that one lead that might have prevented the whole thing.
 
2007-04-30 05:49:47 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

I now know for a fact you have never dealt with the FBI. They one of the most incompetent and bureaucratic organizations ever designed not to mention the mentality in that organization of never stepping out of the group think dynamic.

If you have ever seen the FBI in action you would realize just how laughable your statement is: "I think his FBI deliberately whistled and looked the other way while our enemies plotted."
 
2007-04-30 05:50:17 PM  
elchip just owns this thread. SO farking funny!!! :)
 
2007-04-30 05:50:25 PM  
Have we gotten to the stage of the thread where the whackjobs outnumber the semi-sane people?

/Let me know, that is my favorite part
 
2007-04-30 05:53:01 PM  
Truther = "Gullible & Ignorant"

Bottom Line.
 
2007-04-30 05:53:30 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

you have yet to point out anything concrete or credible. Everytime someone prompts you to pinpoint something exact, you just rant about how evil bush is and what he has done after 9/11

Point out something specific that implicates bush in a very clear manner. not just an assertion, an accusation etc. but something tangible or REAL.
 
2007-04-30 05:53:37 PM  
I'm not too interested in the details that large conspiracy theorist embroider their fantasies with anymore. I just want to hear their answer to the ONE QUESTION(tm).
And the ONE QUESTION(tm) applies to all large conspiracy theories, not just 9/11.
We are not all experts in metallurgy, ballistics, physics - all the technical fields whose expertise might come into play in evaluating these events - but we are all experts in one thing - human nature. We have all been studying it since the day we were born. And that brings me to the ONE QUESTIONJ(tm):
Your "theory" (Kennedy, 9/11, you name it) is incredibly complex. It would have required the complicity of hundreds, maybe thousands of people. We all know damn well, and have since we were five, that the human being who can keep a secret for any significant length of time is a rarity. And yet, with all the years(or decades) that have elapsed since the event, NOT A SINGLE ONE of these conspirators has blabbed. Not one. How is this even remotely possible? How statistically improbable does something have to be before you reject it as an explanation?
 
2007-04-30 05:54:58 PM  
StayPuft:
"Did the FBI have reason to give the evidence about plane hijackings more credence and a closer look than all of the other business it has to attend to? Sometimes they probably have more leads than they can run down. Somebody chose the wrong ones for extra attention. It's tragic, but it's not a plot. They get a lot of unfiltered data, and each analyst is a petty king of his own little bureaucratic kingdom, each convinced that his data is the more important, and each vying for the attention of the superiors. It's a lot of crap to sort through for the FBI to find that one lead that might have prevented the whole thing."


Go and research the subject and get back to me if you are truly interested. I'm in awe of those who casually dismiss Sibil Edmonds, as if allegations of spying at the FBI are no big deal.
 
2007-04-30 05:57:20 PM  
9/11 was another example of the "perfect crime". Much like the O.J. murders. Allow me to explain. Nicole and Ron Goldman were killed in a robbery. But to cover up the robbery the murderer made it look like a crime of passion. And in an brilliant move, did not actually take anything. Hence a "perfect crime".

/Or, O.J. did it and so did the Arab hijackers.
 
2007-04-30 05:58:56 PM  
As a bar of thermite, I'm getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2007-04-30 05:58:56 PM  
crypto:The FBI is a great big bureaucracy, and most of its staff stay on from one administration to the other -- it's therefore resistant to quick change. Bush had been in power less than eight months on 9/11. If rank and file FBIers were ignoring data about a pending attack during the run-up to it, it's highly unlikely Bush had anything to do with it.

Perhaps it's more likely, with all the millions of communications they intercept, it's really really damn hard to tell what's important and what's not without the benefit of hindsight which we now, in fact, have.
 
2007-04-30 05:59:00 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Look. I have to leave in a minute. Could you please just blame the Jews for 9-11 and get it over with? You'll feel better. You'll feel a tremendous weight lifted off your broad, broad shoulders. You've carried a heavy load, my friend, a heavy load.
 
2007-04-30 05:59:08 PM  
Tweekster: that's a no-brainer. Bush asked congress to limit the 9-11 investigation, and refused to testify under oath.
 
2007-04-30 05:59:28 PM  
This thread should be enshrined for posterity.

Brilliant stuff everyone!

The one line that would've had me do a spit take had my mouth been full:

trueaustinite
Are you seriously this stupid? Because the j00s turned on the machine that makes gravity pull in a straight line toward the center of the Earth, unlike other days when the machine is being serviced.
 
2007-04-30 06:00:54 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Well that PROVES it...

oh wait it doesnt.

Why would he want to limit the investigation, because a lot of people were gonna get egg on their face for being incompetent.

Why would any politician ever want to testify on oath, dont they always try to avoid doing so?
 
2007-04-30 06:02:32 PM  
szmike: 9) The Death Star had planet-destroying capabilities, as it had previously demostrated with the complete annihilation of the planet of Alderaan. Yet it did not utilize that power to remove the planet of Yavin, which would have provided the Death Star with an unobstructed shot of the moon which housed the rebel base. Instead, the order was given to wait until the Death Star could orbit around Yavin until a clear shot was available. This gave the rebel fighters enough time to mount its successful attack against the Death Star.

elchip: Not_Enginerd: Actually, because of conservation of momentum and mass, the gravity of the debris cluster formally known as Yavin would exhibit the same gravity effects on the Death Star as Yavin itself. Therefore there was no reason to not shoot through Yavin, unless Lord Vader wanted the Death Star destroyed by the rebels so his buddies could get more high paying government contracts to build another Death Star.

What else did Lord Vader know? Anyone who disagrees with me is a sheeple.

Regardless, the first Death Star's laser took hours to recharge. That's why.


ALL of you are getting sidetracked and bogged down in details - it's DESIGNED to mislead.

The REAL question is why couldn't the DEATH STAR simply DESTROY YAVIN - does anyone honestly THINK that if Yavin goes, a tiny moon in CLOSE ORBIT would SURVIVE?!

I't Stinks - it's an EMPIRE for gods sakes, with such a SIMPLE OPTION, why did TARKEN and VADER make such a critical error in TACTICS?!
 
2007-04-30 06:03:00 PM  
All of you sagely weighing in on the intricacies of FBI bureacratic structure need to take a look at what happened, who the players were and how it all shook out.

FBI field agents were making dark jokes in the run-up to 9-11 to the effect that Bin Laden had spies at FBI HQ.

And yes, Liver Hooligan, I'd love to know why FOX news 86'd their Israeli spy coverage after 9-11. That does look a bit suspicious.
 
2007-04-30 06:03:17 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

Your trollfu is weak

Try again tomorrow!
 
2007-04-30 06:04:52 PM  
Tweekster: why would you exempt a lying incompetent from any suspicion in a crime which benefitted his administration and its corporate cronies?
 
2007-04-30 06:04:58 PM  
YesItsTom/>

LMAO! I haven't laughed that hard in a while.
 
2007-04-30 06:05:03 PM  
nopokerface-

no, but fortunately crypto is pulling double duty til they come...
 
2007-04-30 06:05:09 PM  
tweekster: dont they always try to avoid doing so?

If they learned anything from the previous administration it was that you never testify under oath if at all possible.
 
2007-04-30 06:06:22 PM  
I love all of the pictures. I love the pancake effect that makes we want waffles (I like waffles more than pancakes).

Cryptozoophiliac

You can't be serious?!? Uh why don't you hate the actual people that caused it (Terrorists) than some crackpot idea taht don't hold up under real scrutiny.

Do you believe that we never landed on the moon as well? You sound just like those morons.
 
2007-04-30 06:07:12 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Because the suspicion doesnt point to them, all evidence clearly points elsewhere. That is why. The incompetence just allowed others to commit the crime. but does not make them somehow complicit

Still havent found any tangible clear evidence have you? Accusations and conjecture are all you have
 
2007-04-30 06:08:12 PM  
ZerOhOur: Your life is weak.

Colleen Rowley, David Schippers and so on. Google is your friend.

Just because I don't have all the answers about the exact sequence of events on 9-11 doesn't mean Bush, Zelikow and Kane do.
 
2007-04-30 06:09:41 PM  
"And yes, Liver Hooligan, I'd love to know why FOX news 86'd their Israeli spy coverage after 9-11. That does look a bit suspicious."

YES! Thank you! I knew deep down you were thinking it was all about the Jews. Welcome to Gaza! Would you like some sweets?
 
2007-04-30 06:10:31 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

After all your yelling about FBI people getting promoted after screwing up their job...you haven't worked in industry much, have you? If I had a dollar for every time that's happened, I'd have a shiatload of dollars.

//Basketball FTW
 
2007-04-30 06:11:19 PM  
liverhooligan:

You win!
 
2007-04-30 06:11:56 PM  
Tweekster, where have you been these last few years? Accusation and conjecture are all that are necessary these days. Just ask Sadaam, or Jose Padilla. Yes, accusation, conjecture and perhaps a bit of extrajudicial, extra-legal confinement, and maybe a little creative coercion. Add these all up and what do you get?

9-11 Mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's confession.

Bush has nothing more than I do. Accept apparently his cock up your ass.
 
2007-04-30 06:12:29 PM  
cltbuilder

thx

/clear and present danger is a favorite of mine
 
2007-04-30 06:13:05 PM  
I't Stinks - it's an EMPIRE for gods sakes, with such a SIMPLE OPTION, why did TARKEN and VADER make such a critical error in TACTICS?!

You Empire HATERS are so darn silly. Why are you blaming the VICTIMS of the destruction of the Death Star?

Hindsight is 20/20!!! And I don't know why anyone is blaming Grand Moff Tarkin in all of this. Darth Vader had a lot of blame to shoulder, especially being an absentee father to Luke Skywalker. You know how much that messes up a young boy? Living in the ass-end of the universe, on a slum world like Tatooine?!

But COME ON! YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS. Darth Vader tried to kill his own son to protect that space station (IT'S NO MOON!!!), for goodness' sake!!! DARTH VADER DID NOT WANT THE DEATH STAR TO BE DESTROYED!!!!

You can't say that Darth Vader didn't try!!! and if he had succeeded in shooting down Luke Skywalker, then we wouldn't be HATING on the real VICTIMS of this disaster... THE EMPIRE!
 
2007-04-30 06:13:09 PM  
www.dev-elements.net
 
2007-04-30 06:13:48 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

You realize you just admitted you have nothing right?

Not only have you admitted to being a nutjob, you just admitted to being stupid too.
 
2007-04-30 06:13:51 PM  
I'm tired of the main discussion. I think I'll join the other one: bastar, maybe the superweapon was never designed to work on gas giants. Perhaps their unique structures prevent the laser from cracking them the same way one could destroy a rocky planet. For that matter, maybe the laser would have fired right THROUGH Yavin, but having arrived at the planet while the moon was already on the far side of the giant, they didn't have the exact telemetry to make the shot count. Remember, it was only the Rebels who knew exactly when the death star was coming into range. The imperial command was content just to orbit until the moon came into view.
 
2007-04-30 06:14:25 PM  
www.demise.com
 
2007-04-30 06:14:53 PM  
Of course, I meant: except.

Anyhoo, it's been a blast, although I'm still not sure why messrs. Keane, Zelikow and Bush get to level extra-judicial accusations and conjecture and are above reproach, where I am a fantasy-addled nutjob.

Guess I just don't have thos primo, Bin Laden style connections. Oh well, at least there's Becker.
 
2007-04-30 06:14:55 PM  
Very scarey in here.

Which ones are just skilled trolls (looking at crypto),or believe this stuff?

/innocent trolling remark to appear naive?
//or are my meds off-balance?
///What if that tanker truck was followed by a fertilizer truck followed by a farm truck with ammonia as well as a truck carrying oxygen to the local nursing home?
 
2007-04-30 06:16:57 PM  
Let's not forget, Bushco had to take over the government, come up with the entire plan and get it all in place, people recruited, explosives wired, etc... All in less than 8 months!
 
2007-04-30 06:17:37 PM  
jedimk: Do you believe that we never landed on the moon as well?

No WAY!!!!

img451.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 06:18:30 PM  
cryptozoophiliac:

Basement dwellers typically dont have any connections
 
2007-04-30 06:20:00 PM  
ritalinchild 54:

Basically, here's what it boils down to at Fark. Bush and Cheney are evil and their administration is incompetent, in fact too incompetent to have had any hand in 9-11. Their ties to Saudi oil money and the Bin Laden are coincidental and immaterial.

Nearly anyone who questions the Bush Administration's version of 9-11 is a "Conspiracy Theorist" (or CT), where as those who believe the incompetent, evil Bush Administration's version of 9-11 is a "sober, evidence-weighing realist, dealing in FACT and TRUTH." This entitles them to mock the Conspiracy Theorists.

Clear it up for ya?
 
2007-04-30 06:21:42 PM  
Wow...

I am impressed. This is a far more rational 9/11 thread then usual. Did most of the CT nutcases give up on Fark?


//Or have they had a string of self-inflicted accidents due to tin-foil abuse?
 
2007-04-30 06:23:09 PM  
"elchip [TotalFark] 2007-04-30 04:22:56 PM
EvolveYouPutz: But...Bush & Friends are savvy enough to orchestrate the most diabolical plot in our history, killing thousands, and nobody among the thousands of people that would've been involved in this elaborate plot has opened their yap to anyone, anywhere.

I've been so tempted to make a GMail account with a mysterious-sounding username and e-mail Alex Jones or Michael Rivero or the Loose Change kids and claim that I was involved in planting explosives in the WTC, and I just couldn't live with myself any more, etc. etc... and see how much they jump all over it.
"

I hate to say this but... my ex-wife(second one) was a known firebug from a NY area and had a real hatred for NYC. She is very sketchy and able to be devious and underhanded (as well as being the best lay ever).but she always wanted to fly and was probably in NYC during both attacks at the WTC.


/Does this qualify?
 
2007-04-30 06:23:15 PM  
cryptozoophiliac

And yes, Liver Hooligan, I'd love to know why FOX news 86'd their Israeli spy coverage after 9-11. That does look a bit suspicious.

probably several reasons: 1) gov't mandated (their excuse was probably because of 9/11 and wartime), 2) 9/11 basically overpowered any other news story for the next 2 months, and they had no desire to continue coverage, 3) it's FOX fer christ's sake, they ax anything remotely negative now

i don't remember every news fad, but i can't recall any other network picking up the story
 
2007-04-30 06:24:59 PM  
I saw a US military plane, not a tanker truck.
 
2007-04-30 06:25:21 PM  
I have no idea what you're talking about, so here's a kitten doing a Star Wars impersonation.

pics.livejournal.com
 
2007-04-30 06:25:56 PM  
crypto,zerohour, tweekster, Radio ass, liver, suzan, and just about anyone else still arguing about 911 on a fark comment.

Just stop...NOW!
 
2007-04-30 06:27:13 PM  
And I thought I was having my first original thought when I blogged about this earlier today. (pops)

*sigh*
 
2007-04-30 06:27:33 PM  
jediMK: Al Qaeda may have destroyed the WTCs, but the Bush Administration and a pussillanimous US Congress have destroyed the Constitution.

These are both hateworthy acts. And both criminal, in my opinion.

The difference is, Rudy Giuliani is running for President, not UBL. And he has the goddamn balls to suggest that a vote for the other party will invite another terrorist attack.

Someone should definitely kick him in the nads and hard. American politicians are the ones who can truly destroy America, not Jihadists.
 
2007-04-30 06:27:43 PM  
static.flickr.com
 
2007-04-30 06:29:17 PM  
Admittedly, it's been a while since I've seen the news footage, but isn't Yavin a gas giant? Aren't they many thousands of times larger then rock planets like Alderaan. I mean, if the moon had normal gravity (which it seemed to), it must be normal sized - which makes Yavin pretty big...

All the DS-one could probably do to it was make a pretty light show.

At least that's what RNN says.
 
2007-04-30 06:31:16 PM  
You know, I am SO farking sick of that cliche. It really should be grounds for bannination. My retarded niece still has more common sense than to use someone's disabilities to prove some lame point.
 
2007-04-30 06:31:23 PM  
You morans are arguing about all this on a fark comment thread. Please just stop. You're never going to make your point and you will never change the other persons mind so just stop. You're clogging the intertubes with your idiocy.
static.flickr.com
 
2007-04-30 06:32:06 PM  
Just because the truth of 9/11 wasn't on CNN or NBC doesn't mean GW was behind it. I think it insane to suggest that it was driven by any capitalist agenda was involved. It was the World Trade towers for pete's sake! The world mecca of capitalism.

I just think that our government doesn't want us to know how well planned and executed the attack was. Our government is supposed to make us feel safe. That is their primary purpose.
 
2007-04-30 06:34:04 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: Remember, it was only the Rebels who knew exactly when the death star was coming into range. The imperial command was content just to orbit until the moon came into view.

Right - how come a silly LITTLE band of "Rebels" was able to overcome this MASSIVE juggernaut of an "EMPIRE" - which after taking control of the Galactic Core and exerting massive influence in the Outer Rim planets (Like our PUPPETS the HUTTS) we can't figure out a way to deal with some LITTLE BAND of "REBEL SKUM" - Next your gonna tell me theres some MYTHICAL FORCE that flow through the Universe that made it happen. Keep your INVISIBLE SKY WIZARDS out of this, im trying to have a REASONABLE discussion.

No, my own theory is that an ELITE BAND of "Rough Clone Troopers" (Remember the 501'st and how effective they where?) where set up as this so-called "Rebel Alliance" sideshow that could be used to blame all the MISMANAGEMENT that is going on, and that they where tasked with destroying the DEATH STAR because special "DARK PROJECTS" being worked on in the area known as "THE MAW" needed more funds - funds that could be siphoned off and pawned off as "Cost Overruns" and "Mismanagement". So many systems are making so many credits nobody wants to too make an issue of it for fear of having their own contracts looked over.
 
2007-04-30 06:37:26 PM  
Slump
isn't Yavin a gas giant? Aren't they many thousands of times larger then rock planets like Alderaan. I mean, if the moon had normal gravity (which it seemed to), it must be normal sized - which makes Yavin pretty big...

All the DS-one could probably do to it was make a pretty light show.


I AGREE.

If you think about the energy you'd need to WASTE to blow up a gas giant, just to get at one of its moons... C'MON!!!!!!

I read somewhere that it takes something like the GDP of an ENTIRE STAR SYSTEM to build a single Imperial Star Destroyer. With those kinds of costs involved, why waste ammunition on an uninhabitable gas giant?

DO YOU EMPIRE HATERS KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY?

/stop blaming the Empire!
//Han shot first. What does that say about the Rebel Alliance, HMMMM?!
 
2007-04-30 06:39:12 PM  
www.lakemirabel.com

This fire burned for a long time, but this bridge never collapsed! This is the first time in history a bridge fire has caused the bridge to collapse!
 
2007-04-30 06:39:13 PM  

kaitou [TotalFark] 2007-04-30 06:21:42 PM
Wow...

I am impressed. This is a far more rational 9/11 thread then usual. Did most of the CT nutcases give up on Fark?



No. We've just learned to accept anything our government tells us as undisputable fact. You're a fool if you don't.

The US government has never lied to American people. And it never will.
 
2007-04-30 06:41:45 PM  
stvdallas FTW.
 
2007-04-30 06:42:35 PM  
This is funny shiat. As soon as I saw this story in the paper, I thought about the idiots like BearToy, and how tight they would cling to their stupid-ass conspiracy garbage.

/Angry? No, I just like some insult with my derision.
 
2007-04-30 06:44:08 PM  
The same people who think a portion of freeway equals 110 story steel struction also believe teh earth is less than 10k years old.

They want to believe in a fairy tale.
 
2007-04-30 06:46:23 PM  
legion_of_doo: //Han shot first. What does that say about the Rebel Alliance, HMMMM?!

He was an IMPERIAL PILOT first - I think he was "Deep Cover" / "Agent Provocateur" type - conveniently he transported Luke SKYWALKER to ALDERAN and then they both "conveniently" escaped from there just BEFORE it goes BOOM!!

Right.
 
2007-04-30 06:51:26 PM  
content.answers.com

www.ptfnasty.com

www.nndb.com


Look: the government told us that the North Vietnamese started the Vietnam war when they attacked us at the Gulf on Tonkin!! Uncle McNamara even said so! I'm glad the federal government doesn't lie to us. Otherwise, we wouldn't know who to trust!

Who needs to declassify all these files that they have sealed for decades and decades. We can just take their word at face value.
 
2007-04-30 06:58:23 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: So let's review: the Bush Administration is in bed with the Saudis, the oil and armaments industries, and has cynically used 9-11 to attain its foreign and domestic goals.

Don't forget the reverse vampires, the saucer people and the Rand corporation.
 
2007-04-30 06:59:07 PM  
Goodfella:

Ooh, good Strawman.

I don't recall saying the government(gubbmint?) never lies. Nor did I say that they will never lie.

You however are claiming that the government always lies, no matter what. If Bush says that gravity still works, I wouldn't leap off a building due to a belief that he is lying. Skepticism must be tempered by reason, or you are as big of a fanatic as BushCo.
 
2007-04-30 06:59:12 PM  
As a ruler of a galactic empire I am getting a kick out of these arguements.
 
2007-04-30 07:02:55 PM  
I have always had a problem with the fact that these "Rebels" spent one lousy all nighter and were able to come up with a weakness on something like the Death Star.

Why didn't the Empire just park a Star Destroyer over the opening?
 
2007-04-30 07:05:29 PM  
jedimk: Why didn't the Empire just park a Star Destroyer over the opening?

Or just put a mesh screen up to cover the hole.
 
2007-04-30 07:05:50 PM  
What I find the most incredible about the whole 9/11 truther movement is there complete lack of understanding of Occam's Razor.

They ,for some reason, find it impossible to believe a fully fueled jetliner crashing into a steel skyscraper could cause it to collapse, but they have no difficulty believing in an enormously complicated conspiracy theory involving hundreds if not thousands of people. It hurts sometimes to realize just how stupid people can be.
 
2007-04-30 07:07:02 PM  
Dododado: If fire doesn't melt steel, how do we get it into the shape of beams?

They grow in the wild that way. You know, the large, native steel beam forests of Indonesia?
 
2007-04-30 07:07:18 PM  
SheepFarker:

I just think that our government doesn't want us to know how well planned and executed the attack was. Our government is supposed to make us feel safe. That is their primary purpose.

I always find it kinda weird when 'mericans say stuff like this. Isn't the government supposed to uphold the consitution and protect the liberties of US citizens?

/I admit, it hasn't ACTUALLY done this for many decades, but isn't this really what it's supposed to do?
 
2007-04-30 07:09:25 PM  
Hey stupid conspiracy theorists: stop asking questions about 9/11.
 
2007-04-30 07:10:48 PM  
jedimk: Why didn't the Empire just park a Star Destroyer over the opening?

Radioactive Ass: Or just put a mesh screen up to cover the hole.

Look, the fact is NO SINGLE FIGHTER could have Brought Down the Death Star- wire mess aside, all this ASSUMES that one torpedo can bring down the Largest SPACE STATION ever created.
 
2007-04-30 07:12:31 PM  
jedimk if you keep it up with all of the "why didn'ts," it'll only run you around in circles.

Also, each and every one of you who is continually suggesting that Alderaan, a loyal (if occasionally troublesome) planet under Imperial rule, was destroyed by the Imperial Navy should be ashamed of yourselves for believing Rebel lies and propaganda. What's the real conspiracy here? Blaming the government for the deaths of millions of soldiers in battle, or blindly accepting that it destroyed an entire planet just because one senator's daughter was a troublemaker?
 
2007-04-30 07:13:56 PM  
Infinite Entropy

What I find the most incredible about the whole 9/11 truther movement is there complete lack of understanding of Occam's Razor.

Yeah Occam's Razor is great, I remember some idiot came up to me once and said there were this invisible bugs that were so small they could crawl into your skin, and that these bugs somehow took over your body and then started to make you sick. "Why would a bug do that?" I asked, and then he started going on about how they have to transmit some code and have babies inside your body (uhh how is this even possible). It was all elaborate and complicated and I'm sitting there thinking "Uh, hello, diseases are just curses, dumbass" but I just sort of smiled quietly to myself and let him talk about it. Invisible bugs lol!
 
2007-04-30 07:16:41 PM  
reverting to serious mode:

rush22 the curse explanation accounts for a higher, magical power responsible for enforcing the terms of a supernatural contract made with your enemy for unspecified terms. Hardly a simpler explanation than tiny organisms.
 
2007-04-30 07:18:02 PM  
What I find the most incredible about the whole 9/11 truther movement is there complete lack of understanding of Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor isn't a law of nature.
 
2007-04-30 07:19:19 PM  
Infinite Entropy: What I find the most incredible about the whole 9/11 truther movement is there complete lack of understanding of Occam's Razor.

They ,for some reason, find it impossible to believe a fully fueled jetliner crashing into a steel skyscraper could cause it to collapse, but they have no difficulty believing in an enormously complicated conspiracy theory involving hundreds if not thousands of people. It hurts sometimes to realize just how stupid people can be.


OK...a slight twist on Occam's Razor. They knew it was coming and stood down. Doesn't require a lot of people "in the know". No controlled demolition, no missle, no shoot-down. Just intentionally fark up the air defense system on a chosen day, thwart a late attempt at intercepting #77 (I'm looking at you Cheney), and start-up the war machine. So simple......

/Props to Cryptozoo.
 
2007-04-30 07:20:11 PM  
JerkyMeat:
""The same people who think a portion of freeway equals 110 story steel struction also believe teh earth is less than 10k years old.

They want to believe in a fairy tale.""

But the last time I checked steel still equaled steel, and steel still loses half its strength 650C.
 
2007-04-30 07:22:12 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz

rush22 the curse explanation accounts for a higher, magical power responsible for enforcing the terms of a supernatural contract made with your enemy for unspecified terms. Hardly a simpler explanation than tiny organisms.

Oh great another conspiracy theorist. You know what is simpler? God is cursing you. That's obviously the truth. Have you got a problem with the way I apply Occam's Razor? Perhaps you don't know what it means: it means "whatever answer sounds simplest is obviously correct so shut up you idiot." Who's the deluded moron? Me who believes that a spirit has simply possessed the person through normal channels or tiny bugs that I can't even see infesting a person? Yeah, I can't see spirits either. And I can't see these bugs. Which one has a more simple explanation?
 
2007-04-30 07:24:06 PM  
Tears_that_smell_like_dogfood simpler than that, even, is the political reality that shooting down an airliner full of citizens because of information that is believed to be credible not only requires more courage than any politician in this country has had in a long time, it also requires a pilot to shoot down the jet, and finding one of those will be difficult.

Now if you want to say that the pols made the crass assessment "I can shoot this thing down, and I'll have been right but no-one will ever believe it and I'll be impeached and imprisoned for this atrocity, and my party will be out of power for 50 years, or I could hesitate, for which few will blame me, and then rally the country around the tragedy and stay in power longer" then that might be fair. I also don't think there's a politician in America who would have handled that in the tough but right way.
 
2007-04-30 07:24:22 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: Alderaan, a loyal (if occasionally troublesome) planet under Imperial rule, was destroyed by the Imperial Navy should be ashamed of yourselves for believing Rebel lies and propaganda.

Look, I'm not trying to attack OUR TROOPS, I just believe that certain "SYSTEMS" have a lot to loose if the Empire can now SCARE everyone into line - all of a sudden certain "COMMODITY'S" become much cheaper to obtain, the "Dark Market" becomes flooded with with cheap Spice and Deathsticks (and we KNOW that the Empire uses those markets to fund "Dark Projects" as well) - And untold numbers of TROOPERS are wasted so a small, powerful bunch of "Senators" can continue to accumulate credits.

These guys selflessly put their lives on the line for us, they deserve to be used only when needed and NOT blown to pieces for PROFIT!!
 
2007-04-30 07:24:31 PM  
i94.photobucket.com

/quick and dirty
 
2007-04-30 07:25:06 PM  
Infinite Entropy: What I find the most incredible about the whole 9/11 truther movement is there complete lack of understanding of Occam's Razor.

They ,for some reason, find it impossible to believe a fully fueled jetliner crashing into a steel skyscraper could cause it to collapse, but they have no difficulty believing in an enormously complicated conspiracy theory involving hundreds if not thousands of people. It hurts sometimes to realize just how stupid people can be.


Hmmmm... you know, it actually does make good sense that a building couldn't withstand a collision with a large plane.

i165.photobucket.com

/Btw, that's the empire state building after being hit by a B-52... it didn't fall down
//not that I'm throwing my hat in the ring with all conspiracy theorists, it's just a good thing to have an open mind
 
2007-04-30 07:27:17 PM  
Bastar

That was the point I was trying to make.

How could "Rebel Skum" with all kinds of problems getting money and weapons have destroyed the Death Star....let alone the Death Star II without inside help. These facts will illustrate my point.

1. R2D2 belonged to a Darth Vader before getting lost and getting "found" by rebels.

2. R2D2 happened to get access to the entire schemadics (sp) of the Death Star.

3. R2D2 I am sure was programmed to help these rebel skum in finding the one weakness of the battle station.

4. Darth Vader was the ONLY survivor of the whole debacle. Not only that he let the ones responsible for the attack go to let them "lead" him to the hidden planet.

That covers the first Death Star

5. Darth Vader just happens to let the rebel forces go down on the planet. Telling Admiral Piett "Leave them to me"

6. According to reports actually murdered the Emperor while siding with his son.

The evidence is against him. Darth Vader has never forgiven the Emperor lying about his wife's death. He came up with this plan to get the Emperor out in the open where he could challenge him an kill him.
 
2007-04-30 07:31:06 PM  
Goodfella:

You know you can be skeptical of the government without buying into the idiocy, lies, and junk science conspiracy theorists put forth.

It isnt an either or situation, just because you find Truthers to be total sheep and morons doesnt mean you absolutely believe the government 100%. The government lies, the truthers are simply wrong. flat out wrong, and probably need to be medicated for mass paranoia and delusions.
 
2007-04-30 07:33:43 PM  
I know exactly what made September 11, 2001 happen.

It all began when the Earth coalesced from its components with a rotating motion, so that the resulting planet would rotate about its axis. Eons later, after H. sapien sapien evolved, Julius Cæsar set up a calendar with twelve months and an average of 30½ days per month. Later, a monk who was lousy at math tried to determine the birthday of a religious figure who may or may not have existed, and so reset the beginning year of that calendar to the miscalculated birth year of said religious figure. Then Pope Gregory tweaked it a bit, and established the concept of Leap Centuries, to prevent further discrepancy that had already resulted in needing several days removed from the calendar.

And that is why, right after September 10, and just before September 12, September 11 happened. See? It all fits!
 
2007-04-30 07:35:53 PM  
Mercutio:/Btw, that's the empire state building after being hit by a B-52... it didn't fall down, not that I'm throwing my hat in the ring with all conspiracy theorists, it's just a good thing to have an open mind.


Quoting the webpage that the image is from:
"Too late the pilot of the U.S. Army B-25 bomber with three men aboard, saw the Empire State Building loom up before his eyes. At 300 miles per hour, he plunged through the 34th Street side of the building wreaking havoc. The major portion of the wreckage penetrated the 78th floor. An engine hurtled down an elevator shaft igniting a furious fire in the basement. Parts of the motor and landing gear tore through the entire building landing on top of a 13-story ediface across the street and igniting a second conflagration.

With legs held down by two newsmen, photographer Ernie Sisto crawled out on a harrowing ledge and took the historic photo. It ran on page one of the New York Times."

End point:
It was a B-25 bomber, which was a light army bomber, the same type that was light enough to take off from carriers to do Doolittle's raid.

//Yay Reading.
//Mabye reading is a conspiracy too, just trying to keep an //open mind.
 
2007-04-30 07:37:38 PM  
These 911 Truthers will believe anything that makes our government look bad, especially the Bush Administration. They should foresake their belief in the 911 Fantasy and turn to God to help them see the real The Truth.
 
2007-04-30 07:41:06 PM  
jedimk: The evidence is against him. Darth Vader has never forgiven the Emperor lying about his wife's death. He came up with this plan to get the Emperor out in the open where he could challenge him an kill him.

It's hard to argue with that, and I'm sure that was ONE ASPECT of it - but look at how this "New Republic" is a financial nightmare - Do you HONESTLY think that Vader wasn't part of this MONEY MAKING SCAM! Hell, he was PERSONALLY INVOLVED in most (if not all) of the development of the TIE Weapon System, you know that he was getting SOMETHING from Sienar Fleet Systems for his "EFFORT" - I wounder how much he stood to make on the Death Star project.

No, Vader was a STOOGE for the beings that stand in the shadows, washing Credits around for their own amusement. Keep your eyes on the IBC boys, thats where it all comes together. And we KNOW who runs them...

No, I think Vader's (unsuccessful) ploy for power is also a side show, there to distract us from the shadowy powers that be.
 
2007-04-30 07:42:24 PM  
Mercutio74
If you're going to talk about having an open mind at least present facts that are true. It wasn't a B-52 that hit the ESB. It was a B-25. If you want to compare that to a 767 you'll get the following -

67 ft 6 in - B-25

156 ft 1 in - 767

Know the facts.....
 
2007-04-30 07:43:12 PM  
Mercutio74:
That was a B-25, in 1945, NOT a B-52. Big, HUGE difference. The B-25 was a twin-engine (prop) light bomber. Wingspan: 67 ft 6 in, loaded weight: 33,510 lb.
Meanwhile a B-52 has EIGHT jet engines, a wingspan of 185 ft, and a loaded weight of 265,000 lb.
With this kind of sloppy homework, its no wonder wacy conspiracy theories get started. By comparison a 737 is a little more than half as big as a B-52. (And many times larger than a B-25.)
 
2007-04-30 07:45:12 PM  
Mercutio74

First of all get your facts straight it was a B-25 used in WWII not a B-52. That makes on heck of a difference

Second of all a b-25 is 1/3 the length of a Boeing 767 that hit the trade centers here is a diagram of the specs of both planes.

I just picked a type of 767 Wiki didn't tell what type of 767 it was that crashed into the towers.

767-200 767-200ER
Length 48.5 m
(159 ft 2 in)

Wingspan
47.6 m
(156 ft 1 in)

Empty Weight
176,650 lb
(80,127 kg) 181,610 lb
(82,377 kg)

Maximum take off weight
315,000 lb
(142,882 kg) 395,000 lb
(179,169 kg)

compared to a b-25

Length: 52 ft 11 in (16.1 m)
Wingspan: 67 ft 6 in (20.6 m)
Height: 17 ft 7 in (4.8 m)
Wing area: 610 ft² (57 m²)
Empty weight: 21,120 lb (9,580 kg)
Loaded weight: 33,510 lb (15,200 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 41,800 lb (19,000 kg)

Most important of all is the speed

B-25
Maximum speed: 275 mph (239 knots, 442 km/h)
Cruise speed: 230 mph (200 knots, 370 km/h)

Boeing 767
Mach 0.80 (470 kt, 530 mph, 851 km/h at 35,000 ft cruise
altitude)

Comparing those incidents is like comparing a 2000 lb bomb blast to a firecracker.
 
2007-04-30 07:49:02 PM  
mrspock42--

I highly doubt Mr. Open Mind can tell you the difference in specs between a B-25, B-52, or a Boeing 747.

In all likelyhood his open mind simply led him to copy the picture, quote about the importance of open minds, and all critical thinking wholesale from a CT site.

For future reference:
B-25 bomber: length 50ft, weight ( empty ) 21k lbs.
B-52 bomber: length 160 ft, weight ( empty ) 185k lbs
Boeing 747: length 231 ft, weight ( empty ) 400k lbs

You know what's even more important than having an open mind?

Brains, and the ability to use it occassionally.
 
2007-04-30 07:49:46 PM  
Mercutio74

A B-25 is not a B-52.


B-25:
# Length: 52 ft 11 in (16.1 m)
# Wingspan: 67 ft 6 in (20.6 m)
# Height: 17 ft 7 in (4.8 m)
# Wing area: 610 ft² (57 m²)
# Empty weight: 21,120 lb (9,580 kg)
# Loaded weight: 33,510 lb (15,200 kg)

B-52:
# Length: 159 ft 4 in (48.5 m)
# Wingspan: 185 ft 0 in (56.4 m)
# Height: 40 ft 8 in (12.4 m)
# Wing area: 4,000 ft² (370 m²)
# Empty weight: 185,000 lb (83,250 kg)
# Loaded weight: 265,000 lb (120,000 kg)


And just for kicks:
Boeing 757:
# Length: 54.47 m (178 ft 7 in)
# Wingspan: 38.05 m (124 ft 10 in)
# Height: 13.56 m (44 ft 6 in)
# Loaded weight: 123,600 kg


Also you may want to look up the structural differences between the WTC towers and the Empire State.
 
2007-04-30 07:50:13 PM  
Bastar

It was Grand Admiral Thrawn pulling the strings.

He was behind everything from the death of the outbound flight to the invasion of the Yuuzhon Vong (SP).
 
2007-04-30 07:51:53 PM  
damn you faster typers/ fact looker uppers!

shakes fist at Remarkable_Anus, Moglandor, and jedimk...

or was it...a...CONSPIRACY????
 
2007-04-30 07:53:25 PM  
FritzyvonFritz

It was the work of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

I know you think he is a fictional character.....but that is what he wants you to believe.
 
2007-04-30 07:53:49 PM  
i second that Fritzy i am way to slow and for that i am shamed
 
2007-04-30 07:53:53 PM  
Lol.... 's what I get for getting up from the pc for a few min after starting to type the reply.


//well said to all making the correction.
//Make sure your mind isn't so open that it falls out
 
2007-04-30 07:53:55 PM  
Ha ha ha ha, now we started the vietnam war!
Holy crap this is fantastic, I wanna dip my chips in the back of Rosie's head.
Tinfoil hats RULE!!!!
 
2007-04-30 07:54:38 PM  
Has anyone mentioned the difference between a B-25, a B-52 and a 767 yet?
 
2007-04-30 07:58:59 PM  
natas6.0

Why would you want to eat pure fat. That is about all she has for brain ya know.
 
2007-04-30 08:00:57 PM  
So, let me see if I get this straight. Humans are engaged in a never ending struggle to try and hurt each others feelings through partisan bickering, a back and forth cat fight that neither will ever give up on.

Righto.

Scotty, beam me up...
 
2007-04-30 08:03:58 PM  
jedimk: It was Grand Admiral Thrawn pulling the strings.

Nope - Thrawn was another "Operative", probably recruited by the IBC when he was in the "Unknown Regions". Gotta watch those bankers...
 
2007-04-30 08:05:16 PM  
//Han shot first. What does that say about the Rebel Alliance, HMMMM?!

That's Imperial propaganda. Recent evidence has shown that his attacker shot first. Besides, Han wasn't even in the Alliance at that time.
 
2007-04-30 08:06:22 PM  
jedimk

Well, it's fortunate for him that you, me and the deluge of other posters responding to the B-25 issue are easily led sheeple who believe what our government tells us...if only we had the power of TRUTH on our side...

/how's that whole open mind thing workin out for you Mercutio74?
 
2007-04-30 08:07:31 PM  
jedimk and kaitou broke it down a lot nicer than I did. Kudos...
 
2007-04-30 08:07:34 PM  
Mugato: Besides, Han wasn't even in the Alliance at that time.

Or so "The Powers That Be©®™" would have you believe...
 
2007-04-30 08:10:15 PM  
Dear god some of you people are freaking retarded as..well a retard, but still I really hope mercutio 74 and the other nutjobs never have children. Please keep preaching about keeping an "open mind" while giving us such dumbass facts as the Empire State Building collision. We all need some new fodder to make fun of you about.
 
2007-04-30 08:11:09 PM  
bastar

I figured it would be the IBC. Those guys have always been slimy.

I bet it was the butler droids like ZZ-4Z...cuz it is always the butler.
 
2007-04-30 08:11:10 PM  
the blue man? In charge of it all? Hardly. Now that Solo character - he might seem like an insignificant bit-player but consider: he comes from a powerful family from isolationist Corellia, where there happens to be a Seinar Fleet Systems foundry, and where his extended family is no stranger to genocide and other atrocities. Look how he fits into this mess: he "escapes" from the death star, "survives" Lord Vader's custody, and winds up married to the second President of the Republic! That's how the Corellians always do it: man behind the leader. Look at all the help he had - senator Bel Iblis, Antilles, etc etc. This whole racket begins and ends in Coronet.
 
2007-04-30 08:13:06 PM  
FritzyvonFritz

Baaaaaa.
 
2007-04-30 08:14:54 PM  
chiark: You however are claiming that the government always lies, no matter what.

I don't recall ever claiming that. My whole point was to point out the error of accepting as irrefutable fact the official story as told by government officials.

After all, 50-60% of Americans still believe that Saddam had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. Gullability here is fairly rampant.
 
2007-04-30 08:15:55 PM  
I joked when we saw this on the news that someone without any idea what a fire over time can do to concrete and the fixtures would claim something nefarious was happening.

I'm only heartened so far that even the bloggers aren't taking the idea seriously. These things usually take time, so we'll see in 2 years.
 
2007-04-30 08:16:47 PM  
cryptozoophiliac: You left out the part about Habeas Corpus being trashed, and how US citizens can now be detained by the government without charges or legal counsel indefinitely.

But that's not the point here, the point is: OMG look at the conspiracy nutjobs run because a road collapsed 1!!!!


So as a conspiracy nutjob, you are upset that people are distracted from real issues by conspiracy nutjobs?
 
2007-04-30 08:16:47 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz

You have it all wrong....it was Chewie. He was the power behind the power of the thrown. I mean after he died look at how quickly the New Republic collapsed.

Never trust a wookie...if given a chance he will kill you and everything you care about.
 
2007-04-30 08:17:56 PM  
Like many others, I do not believe in the conspiracy theories, but I don't rule them out. That said, was the freeway built to withstand such an intense gas fire? I believe the WTC was built to withstand planes flying into it. I see this as a hole in the analogy.
 
2007-04-30 08:18:37 PM  
IED's for everyone....yeah...fark americans i'm sick of all of you I'm gonna fark shiat up.....
 
2007-04-30 08:19:57 PM  
and to think I thought he was killed because he was about to come clean...
 
2007-04-30 08:23:01 PM  
Google up the Fulton Road Bridge in Cleveland, Ohio.

They just tried blowing it up on the 28th. They FAILED.

Explosives don't work! Fire does!


On serious note, molten steel is yellowish-white. Red hot is only in the 600-800deg range. Glowing red steel can be bent easily by hand...

/melts steel with hydrocarbon fire all the time
//meet my friends Oxygen and Acetylene (C2H2)
 
2007-04-30 08:23:15 PM  
They was designed withstand small planes impacts. Not a half loaded 767.

And at the time they were built they had Asbestos (SP) insulation around those steel supports. Those where taken out in the mid 80's or 90's. That would have made those steel supports much more vulnerable to fire as well as intense heat. I might be wrong but Asbestos is still the best fire insulation around right.
 
2007-04-30 08:25:08 PM  
asbestos works well for that, yeah. German soldiers used asbestos pads to swap barrels out of their MG-42s, and a little pad of it was enough that the red-hot metal wouldn't burn them.
 
2007-04-30 08:25:43 PM  
wait! rephrase that! NAZIS use asbestos! thread godwinned and we can all go home! YAY!
 
2007-04-30 08:27:16 PM  
hah, wow this is the first thing i though of when i heard that it collapsed from the heat
/damn theorists
 
2007-04-30 08:33:07 PM  
I really enjoy the argument that, because he benefited from 9/11, Bush must have caused it.

Osama had a history of attacking the US, and 9/11 was used as a great propaganda victory in killing a lot of Americans. He used 9/11 to bait the US into two wars, tarnish the US's image abroad, get more donations from radical supporters and greatly increase recruiting. Clearly he was behind it all.

Hamid Karzai was a former Taliban supporter. After falling out of power with the organization (and thus out of power in the Afghan government), he needed a regime change if he wanted to take over again. Conveniently, the US just happened to invade and help his small group of fighters take over the country. Because of 9/11 he went from a two-bit warlord to the most powerful man in the government. Clearly he was behind it all.

The State of Texas has many defense-oriented industries (missiles, airplanes, etc) and a large number of military bases, all of which just happened to get large increases in funding after 9/11. All of the married soldiers who receive combat pay are sending the money home where it is spent by their wives and children, thus helping small businesses in the state. Moreover, Texas governor Rick Perry graduated from Texas A&M, a school where he could have learned about collapsing things and the use of fire as entertainment. Clearly he was behind it all.

Commercial Landlords in the City of New York benefited greatly from 9/11. Once the WTC collapsed, a enormous amount of office space was lost and many companies were forced to lease space in other buildings. Not only did these landlords get increased rents as a result of 9/11, but they would also know about buildings and stuff, and could easily plant explosions to destroy them. Also, NYC landowners have a disproportionate number of Republicans (skilled at lying), Japanese (skilled at sneak attacks) and Jews (skilled at pure evil). Clearly they were behind it all.

Dylan Avery was just an anonymous douchebag before 9/11. He "conveniently" happened to notice all of the "holes" in the "official" "story." Of the millions of people who witnessed 9/11, only he was smart enough to come up with these facts. Which is more likely, that he happened upon facts that others missed, or that he planted these inconsistencies so that he could later catapult himself to fame when he revealed them to the world in his movie? Of all of the other people mentioned, only this guy managed to go from being a nobody to being a minor quazi-celebrity. He gained more from 9/11 than anyone else and, given his extensive knowledge of physics, engineering and metallurgy, he was smart enough to pull it off. Clearly he was behind it all.

/wake up sheeple
 
2007-04-30 08:34:40 PM  
rush22: Hey stupid conspiracy theorists: stop asking questions about 9/11.

they don't ask questions, they just think they have all of the answers.
 
2007-04-30 08:35:23 PM  
i hope for your sake that that's all trolling.
 
2007-04-30 08:47:21 PM  
jedimk: That said, was the freeway built to withstand such an intense gas fire? I believe the WTC was built to withstand planes flying into it. I see this as a hole in the analogy.

Depends on the plane, doesn't it? And anything can be built to withstand fire, the question is always "how long and how hot?" Even safes are rated at a certain temperature for a certain period of time, and absent their function of protecting their contents at all cost - they'd be considered overkill if used in other design criteria. It's the "black box" argument: why not build the plane like that? Easy answer: because it wouldn't fly.

Those where taken out in the mid 80's or 90's. That would have made those steel supports much more vulnerable to fire as well as intense heat. I might be wrong but Asbestos is still the best fire insulation around right.

I believe the actual story is that the upper floors were blasted with non-asbestos fire proof material since powdered asbestos material was outlawed during their construction. I'll see if I can find the link. Regardless, it's fairly certain the fireproofing on the impact floors, asbestos or not, was blown off as the disintegrating plane made its way through the building.
 
2007-04-30 08:47:32 PM  
Some people want to see a conspiracy in everything as long as it's not their political party.
 
2007-04-30 08:48:34 PM  
liverhooligan

Question:

Admittedly, I've been out of touch for a while, however, I recall opponents to the war in Iraq saying that it was all about lowering gas prices by taking over the lucrative Iraqi fields and putting more oil in the supply?

Why then did I just pay $2.87 today to fill up?


If you filled up for $2.87, then I'm impressed. 93 is currently $3.09-3.19 in Ohio, and my Mazda swallows 15-16 gallons of it per fill up.

Either you have a really, really small tank, or fuel is about a quarter a gallon where you live!
 
2007-04-30 08:59:16 PM  
very simple truth from fire sciences classes and building construction for the fire service a steel beam at 1000 F will not support it's own weight. it doesnt have to melt, it loses it's strength, expands, sags and causes whatever it was supporting to collapse, be it a tall skyscraper or a freeway overpass no evil conspiracy or government coverup, just simple physics
 
2007-04-30 09:04:29 PM  
img256.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 09:05:23 PM  
liverhooligan

Well, I recall supporters of the war saying it would be over in weeks and our troops would be "lovebombed" and we would find those WMDs. These weren't random people, either, these were major pundits and administration officials on TV EVERY DAY. How did that work out again?

I never heard a single dirty hippie say anything about lowering gas prices. I did hear them talking about "war for oil", which I think means control of the oil. Like an idiot, I laughed at them. Well, they seem to have been kinda right. That reminds me, the neocons also said that that oil would pay for the reconstruction of Iraq. How did that part work out?
 
2007-04-30 09:05:25 PM  
RE: Asbestos link.

Found one that wasn't either: a) a conspiracy web site complaining about asbestos dust in the wreckage or b) Stephen Milloy, who does not carry a whole lot of scientific cred, even if he manages to point out something useful every once in a while.

It's from Scientific American, and these people are not "Popular Science" or "Popular Mechanics". I still frequently have to do outside research on my own just to understand what the hell they are writing about in some of their issues. The article was written a month after the attacks, and it doesn't make a claim as to whether asbestos would have helped or not, just that it didn't cover all of one tower and was removed and replaced after the 1993 bombings.

Some have raised questions about the degree of fire protection available to guard the structural steel. According to press reports, the original asbestos cementitious fireproofing applied to the steel framework of the north tower and the lower 30 stories of the south were removed after the 1993 terrorist truck bombing. (pops)

The question about asbestos still hasn't been answered, and likely can never be unless someone tries this again. I'm one of those hoping no one does.
 
2007-04-30 09:12:44 PM  
Evidently, US-made steel will flow like water at about 500 F.
 
2007-04-30 09:14:09 PM  
Credit to the DUmmie that said it first. Fire may melt steel, but it'll never melt tin foil.....
 
2007-04-30 09:16:33 PM  
You don't need the fire to melt the metal, just soften it a bit. And steel starts softening long before it melts. In a structure, namely a stressed structure, it takes very little softening to cause structural failure. When tensile strength goes from a 10 tons per square inch to 8 tons, bad things will happen. Like bridge fall down and go boom. Ditto a tall building.
 
2007-04-30 09:20:20 PM  
studebaker hoch: Evidently, US-made steel will flow like water at about 500 F.

Uh no. But it well start to soften at a slightly warmer temperature.
 
2007-04-30 09:22:06 PM  
Bacontastesgood: These weren't random people, either, these were major pundits and administration officials on TV EVERY DAY. How did that work out again?

Dude,

Get Tenet's book. He does a pretty good job of outlining how many people were ignored in the run-up. As someone who bought the war story precisely because it didn't seem possible that so many people could fark up all at once, it turns out only a few key people need to be committed to farking up, and there you go. And not in the "conspiracy theory way", but regular old hubris that makes one person in charge think they know better than anyone else who reports to them.

This is particularly true if one of those people is Rumsfeld, who did what any rational person would do if a 4 star general with 30-40 years of experience disagreed with you: he forced them into retirement. IMHO, we should be recruiting those experienced military personnel to write for our papers, since the press seemed to miss this watershed event for what it was at the time, and how else are we going to find out? Congress didn't let us know, but I seriously doubt they were working that hard on it.

I never heard a single dirty hippie say anything about lowering gas prices. I did hear them talking about "war for oil", which I think means control of the oil.

Not necessarily the same, but I heard both arguments at the time - we either needed the oil because we didn't want Iraqis to have control of their own money, or because joe schmoe with an SUV couldn't afford to fill up if we didn't take the oil and give it cheap to our own people. Or that we were tired of the French and Russians realizing a benefit from the "Oil for food" program. Choose your poison, all the arguments were made from both sides.

Guess what? At this point in time, we've all lost. We don't have cheaper oil, people are dead regardless, and no one controls the oil. I suppose we screwed over the French, but is that really a benefit?
 
2007-04-30 09:24:57 PM  
studebaker hoch: Evidently, US-made steel will flow like water at about 500 F.

No, but any steel will weaken over time when exposed to a constant source of heat. Steel can also structurally fail when exposed to extreme cold over time, regardless of where it is made.
 
2007-04-30 09:32:52 PM  
I think studebaker hoch's comment about "{steel flowing like water" was in reference to the pools of molten steel at the site. Because the WTC was made only of steel and contained nothing else at all that could have possibly melted. Nothing.
 
2007-04-30 09:33:21 PM  
EvolveYouPutz: So, let me see if I have this straight:

Bush & Friends can't even get away with firing 8 lawyers without news of it being turning into a national scandal.

But...Bush & Friends are savvy enough to orchestrate the most diabolical plot in our history, killing thousands, and nobody among the thousands of people that would've been involved in this elaborate plot has opened their yap to anyone, anywhere. Oh yeah, and if Bush & Friends are so good at hoaxing people, why didn't we "find" any WMD's in Iraq? If they could kill over 3,000 people on our own soil it wouldn't be hard to plant a small nuke in a bunker near Baghdad and call it Saddam's.

Right. Look folks, I hate Bush too. That doesn't mean that I surrender my logic at the same time. Look at the reaction to Hurricane Katrina and tell me that "the gubmint" is really on top of things. Bush, and everyone that works for him is too stupid to pull something like this off.


But you have to remember they let those other things get caught to further the cover up!

Yeah these people are stupid and there is no point arguing with them so I quit a long time ago. I made my GF's sister cry calling her a farking idiot at a family function when she spouted this shiat. When I was told to apologize I just told her anyone that stupid doesnt deserve any pity.
 
2007-04-30 09:38:14 PM  
Look, this sucker right here:

www.prisonplanet.com

Burned all night long, from top to bottom and didn't collapse. Hotter and longer and more involved than WTC.

WTF is with our steel? Are *all* US steel structures this weak when exposed to heat?
 
2007-04-30 09:38:43 PM  
steamingpile

What you just posted, could be the dumbest thing
ever posted anywhere!
 
2007-04-30 09:48:37 PM  
The melting point of steel argument is a red herring.

Steel doesn't have to completely melt before it fails catastrophically. Apparently heating it to 50 - 70% of the melting point will do it when there's sudden change in the load.

And there's no guarantee that the steel they actually got from the supplier wasn't a cheaper grade than what they paid for.

You're talking NYC Unions here, don't forget.
 
2007-04-30 09:53:08 PM  
studebaker hoch
Look, this sucker right here:
Burned all night long, from top to bottom and didn't collapse. Hotter and longer and more involved than WTC.
WTF is with our steel? Are *all* US steel structures this weak when exposed to heat?


Perhaps this will answer that question.

Basically, not only was the Madrid fire in a much shorter building (106 meters vs. 415 meters), it wasn't rammed with a high-speed projectile or doused with a jet fuel.
 
2007-04-30 09:58:00 PM  
Mercutio74: "/Btw, that's the empire state building after being hit by a B-52... it didn't fall down"

Obviously everyone coming down on M74 has managed to forget that dark day when a B-52 struck the ES Building. Equally obviously an inside job.
Looks like they got to everyone else on Fark!!
www.stealthputter.com

/"Anyone seen Major Kong?"
 
2007-04-30 10:01:55 PM  
studebaker hoch: Burned all night long, from top to bottom and didn't collapse. Hotter and longer and more involved than WTC.

WTF is with our steel? Are *all* US steel structures this weak when exposed to heat?


Wow owned in 3 posts, is that some sort of a record?

WahWahWeWah: What you just posted, could be the dumbest thing
ever posted anywhere!


Thank you, now go straighten your tin foil hat cause half my post was quoted little miss smart guy.
 
2007-04-30 10:02:16 PM  
Snarfangel

The North WTC tower wasn't hit all that far down from the top. The loading was about the same, plus or minus a dozen floors?

The impact cutting columns mattered. The dousing with jet fuel didn't matter when compared to the Madrid building, the Madrid building burned all night long compared to the WTC going down like a cheap card table after about an hour.

I would bet (no basis, this is out of my ass just based on looks) that the madrid fire was hotter, and spread out over a bigger area.

And yet, no earth-shattering kaboom?

The WTC got lit faster, the Madrid tower burned hotter, longer and over a bigger area.

pretty pictures
 
2007-04-30 10:06:00 PM  
Mercutio74:hit by a B-52

B-25: Empty weight: 21,120 lb ; Maximum speed: 275 mph

B-52: Empty weight: 185,000 lb ; Maximum speed: 560 knots

Big difference there, 9/11 blogger.
 
2007-04-30 10:06:44 PM  
HAY! Has anyone told Mercutio74 that it was a B-25 yet?
 
2007-04-30 10:08:02 PM  
studebaker hoch
I would bet (no basis, this is out of my ass just based on looks) that the madrid fire was hotter, and spread out over a bigger area.


From a quick Google, it looks like the peak temperature in the Windsor Tower fire was 800 C. For the WTC, it was between 900 and 1000 C.
 
2007-04-30 10:08:44 PM  
studebaker hoch

Yeah, completely overlook the part about the differences in structural the engineering between the two buildings.

It's not important.
 
2007-04-30 10:10:25 PM  
Worse still, ALL the B-52s hitting at the same time:

www.abc.net.au

thunkthunkthunkthunk


ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
 
2007-04-30 10:10:39 PM  
tweekster: cryptozoophiliac:

You have never worked in any major governmental or non governmental organization have you? Incompetence always gets promoted, the upper echelons of every organization is filled with morons totally incapable of doing their job.


This is so true. And the competent workers get run out or fired because the morons are afraid of them.

Given it's a bridge in California, it would have been easier to go with "sub-standard contractor work by illegal aliens" or "the CalTrans inspectors screwed up after the last earthquake" angle.
 
2007-04-30 10:11:36 PM  
There was an interesting article in the Washington Post (p.A3) today regarding self-deception. It would fit better in a Bush or evolution thread, but here's a quote:

"Deliberate deception among humans, furthermore, requires effort, it requires you to hold both the truth and untruth in your mind...Self-deception offers a way around this psychological hurdle. If you can make yourself believe the untruth, for example, by marshaling evidence that supports your view and ignoring evidence that contradicts your position, it becomes that much easier to persuade others...it usually happens subtly, without the person even being aware of it."
 
2007-04-30 10:13:33 PM  
iKill

Yeah, completely overlook the part about the differences in structural the engineering between the two buildings.

Oh so now you're going to say the Spanish build better buildings than we do?

It's not important.

It is if you're waving a dishtowel out a 110th floor window.
 
2007-04-30 10:14:18 PM  
www.davesweb.cnchost.com

From this angle you can clearly see that fire doesn't have any effect on steel.

Since the construction methods and stress loads were identical in this building and the WTC, we can clearly see that the the WTC was destroyed by BUSHCOS!!!

I'm so far through the looking glass, I'm in the medicine cabinet!
 
2007-04-30 10:14:36 PM  
http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/EN/p3.htm
 
2007-04-30 10:15:16 PM  
God DAMMIT, you guys keep bringing up engineering.

This is a 9/11 conspiracy thread on FARK.

Get with the program:

/teh thermites wur earin ur steel! oneone!!
 
2007-04-30 10:15:38 PM  
Oh so now you're going to say the Spanish build better buildings than we do?

It's a different type of building; where it was built and who built it is completely irrelevant.

(pssst, not all skyscrapers are the same)
 
2007-04-30 10:15:57 PM  
Jeez, comparing a B-25 to a B-52 would be like comparing a 110 floor building collapse to a bridge collapse or something.

/just sayin
 
2007-04-30 10:19:57 PM  
studebaker hoch

Oh so now you're going to say the Spanish build better buildings than we do?


The WTC used an innovative technique that allowed the building to have large open spaces without a lot of supporting columnns taking up space through the use of trusses connecting to a central elevator column. The building also employed tension to keep itself standing upright and to give it strength.

In office space the more total usable floorspace you have in a building the more money you get. Especially when you factor it into a 110 story building.

This Spanish building appears to be a more traditional construction. Yes, it is a stronger building. I'll leave you to make the argument that stronger = better. Unless you're a Civil E with extensive experience in high rise construction and an indepth knowledge of the pros and cons of various construction methods...

Nevermind.

/thinks bush is the worst prez ever.
//but this is just silly
 
2007-04-30 10:21:44 PM  
Hmmm so I wonder....

At the WTC, the steel was over some very long spans. All the way from the utility core to the outer wall. Lot of heat, not much deflection required to pop the bolts at the edge connectors. Gravity does the rest.

At the Bay Bridge interchange, much the same...steel spanning a long distance, sags a bit in the middle, which is enough to move it off the supports.

I think one could clearly say that, based soley on those observations, that the CIA obviously sabotaged both structures to strike fear into a population reluctant to start an oil war.
 
2007-04-30 10:24:35 PM  
So I'd say that we'd better watch out for long-span steel, and check for fire hazards?

It's cool, those big spans are dramatic, but steel has a serious achilles heel when it comes to heat.

Two words: progressive collapse George Bush.
 
2007-04-30 10:24:59 PM  
I think one could clearly say that, based soley on those observations, that the CIA obviously sabotaged both structures to strike fear into a population reluctant to start an oil war.

Now you're just making fun of yourself.
 
2007-04-30 10:25:02 PM  
fight the real terrorists:

img253.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 10:25:58 PM  
this thread delivers
 
2007-04-30 10:26:56 PM  
WTC 7:

As reported by the New York Times,[6] the building had had some extreme renovative work done to it in 1989 to accommodate the needs of a new major tenant, the brokerage firm Salomon Brothers. Most of three existing floors were removed as tenants continued to occupy other floors, and then more than 350 (US) tons of steel were added to construct three double-height trading floors. Nine diesel generators were also installed on the fifth floor as part of a back-up power station. "Essentially, Salomon is constructing a building within a building - and it's an occupied building, which complicates the situation," said a district manager of Silverstein Properties. The unusual task was possible, said Larry Silverstein, because it was designed to allow for "entire portions of floors to be removed without affecting the building's structural integrity, on the assumption that someone might need double-height floors."[6]
 
2007-04-30 10:27:59 PM  
OH wait....

/just sayin
 
2007-04-30 10:31:54 PM  
iKill

Now you're just making fun of yourself.

img.fark.com
 
2007-04-30 10:33:48 PM  
MaMaK

Leave WTC 7 out of it. There will be another thread for actual conspiracies.
 
2007-04-30 10:37:28 PM  
The steel doesn't have to melt; it just has to weaken.

Add in the fact that everything is built by the lowest bidder - possibly using the minimum quality steel available - and you have a collapse. Never mind that they say "never has there been a steel-structured building collapse solely from fire" when a FARKING PLANE CRASHED INTO EACH TOWER. That's not "solely from fire." And where did the collapses start? Why, right where the planes impacted. Those farkers can PLAN - even hit a building right on target, matching up with the supposed explosive charges. Impressive, that.

And there are photos of Building 7 that show a large chunk missing from one corner - far from "untouched." 300 feet isn't very far when you're talking about a plane crash and the collapse of two 110-story buildings.

Look at Popular Mechanics. All your debunking needs can be met right there.
 
2007-04-30 10:38:06 PM  
I would bet (no basis, this is out of my ass just based on looks) that the madrid fire was hotter, and spread out over a bigger area.

And yet, no earth-shattering kaboom?

The WTC got lit faster, the Madrid tower burned hotter, longer and over a bigger area.


And it wasn't built even remotely the same, beyond a goal to make it stand up. It had a concrete central core, waffle slabs instead of solid concrete slabs for each floor, and it DID collapse above the floors that hadn't been retrofitted during a remodeling. It stopped, oddly enough, at the floor that extra fire protection had gone up to at that point.

What you seem to be missing is that the steel buckled just like the WTC, and the round columns you see around the edges are reinforced concrete providing a vertical load support in the middle of each floor (your pictures). Those were absent in the WTC. The floors did not share the vertical load the same as the WTC, nor did the perimeter support, which in the Madrid hotel failed just as surely as in the WTC.

Maybe we're not explaining our position correctly? I can throw a cement safe into a coal fire for five hours and a metal safe into a wood fire for three hours. If I expect the same result, then there are about 100 factors I don't take into account. You can point to that building and say it didn't collapse beyond the halfway point, but if you don't acknowledge anything about how it was built then you aren't really proving a point. I may as well point out my fireplace doesn't melt EVEN THOUGH IT'S IRON OMFG! Or that my wood house could easily collapse in less than an hour depending on the fire.

Also, really, comparing the load on a 110 story building at 70-90 stories is not the same as comparing the load at the 17-20th floor of a 32 story building, particularly if the buildings aren't anywhere close to size in a cross sectional area on any given floor. If anyone adhered to such thought (as I'm sure we used to), you'd never have buildings that large. Haven't you ever wondered why old large skyscrapers get smaller as they go up?
 
2007-04-30 10:42:38 PM  
nashBridges

Oh so now you're going to say the Spanish build better buildings than we do?

/if Fark came in rocks I would smoke it.
 
2007-04-30 10:47:58 PM  
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/wtc6/wtc6-side-aerial-hr.jpg

/still standing
 
2007-04-30 10:50:46 PM  
This is nothing new. The same thing happened a few years ago on I-95 in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Took something like a year to rebuild the viaduct.
 
2007-04-30 10:50:50 PM  
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f178/myphotos1960/wtc6.jpg
 
2007-04-30 10:55:59 PM  
studebaker hoch: Oh so now you're going to say the Spanish build better buildings than we do?

I really can't tell if you are stupid or just having fun, so I'll be nice (I'm guessing you are having fun):

Depending on when and where a building is built, the design will be different. Depending on that design and what happens to it, its failure will be different.

There are huge differences in how big buildings are built the world over. I lived in Asia for a few years and was struck, quite honestly, at the amount of poured concrete structures used for apartment buildings. Turns out it's the best for the humid environment and the rain up to a certain level. It's also cheaper. Steel is not cheap the world over.

No one builds better buildings than anyone else. We build them for our own purposes, period, and we all do a good job at it. No one built the WTC so planes could run into it anymore than someone built the Madrid building so it could catch on fire.
 
2007-04-30 10:56:12 PM  
MaMaK

/still standing

Yeah, but you know they lost their cleaning deposit.
 
2007-04-30 10:59:44 PM  
MaMaK: http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f178/myphotos1960/wtc6.jpg

Maybe you can get Firefox and Farkode as an extension so you can make a popup link in the thread? Do some work! Farkode still works!

And if you aren't going to explain your links, what the hell are we looking at?
 
2007-04-30 11:05:06 PM  
img402.imageshack.us
 
2007-04-30 11:06:42 PM  
nashBridges

I really can't tell if you are stupid or just having fun, so I'll be nice (I'm guessing you are having fun):

Do you wanna start the "demolition charges" images, or should I?
 
2007-04-30 11:06:54 PM  
Clearly, some of the military-grade termites used in the WTC sabotage got loose. Those suckers have an appetite for steel. The tanker truck and resulting fire were obviously a desperate attempt to exterminate them.
 
2007-04-30 11:19:10 PM  
I can just see the ticket the driver's going to get:

1) Speeding - 4 points
2) Failure to control vehicle - 6 points
3) Total destruction of interstate freeway interchange - 8,000,000 points.

/I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record.
 
2007-04-30 11:28:55 PM  
I love it how lajaunie and Herr Konditioner both make one comment and then disappear.
 
2007-04-30 11:32:59 PM  
Anybody that reads this far down in the thread receives...

275 EXPERIENCE POINTS!

(-3 charisma)

For the record I think this was the work of Count Chocula,

god people, it's Oakland, news is when somethign doesn't blow up. Anyone remember the gas explosion in Walnut Creek like a year back?
 
2007-04-30 11:38:54 PM  
img261.imageshack.us

/touched elchip, but not in that way
//though theres nothing wrong with that
 
2007-04-30 11:47:19 PM  
way up these comments somewhere, someone (herr konditioner?) asked why the WTC neatly collasped in its own footprint. I'm sure it's been covered (too lazy to read this whole thread) but a building as tall as the WTC can not fall down sideways or tip over or anything. The structure is just too farking massive and too tall to do anything other than fall into its own footprint. I forget the exact number but skyscapers can only lean over something like 26 feet or something like that, then they'd fall, they can't tip over.

/take a physics class sometime
 
2007-04-30 11:48:30 PM  
You know, I often look at the images of WTC debris and try to identify things, and I can never do it. Just support-column steel, and the prefab side panel steel. After that it's all just metal.

/And one serious-looking cat.
 
2007-04-30 11:51:48 PM  
studebaker hoch: Do you wanna start the "demolition charges" images, or should I?

I haven't the time or the connection at home to do so.

Guess I didn't really have the time to read the whole thread, either.
 
2007-04-30 11:54:10 PM  
Gilligan_Buddy
Clearly you haven't tried modeling this with 1/4 inch chicken wire. If you did, you would know that only thermite charges could weaken the support structures to the point that it falls on its exact footprint. see, youre right, it would tip over to 28 feet, but here it didnt tip. It didnt get tipsy, like ev'rybody in the club. getting tipsy.
 
2007-05-01 12:04:50 AM  
I didn't see any melted steel on that bridge like I did at the WTC, and I didn't hear of any reports of melted steel on that bridge that was still hot weeks after the bridge fell down.

I did hear that the fire the truck started had open air to use as opposed to the WTC where the air flow was restricted.

For those who think this has any effect on the possibiblity of melted steel at the WTC---you need to go try to melt some steel in your back yard.
 
2007-05-01 12:10:23 AM  
rofl - I donno which was funnier - the guy who hinted that this whole thing was misinformation/disinformation to help weaken their conspiracy theories - of the guy who sugegsted that this was intentional because they were going to have to demolish both sets of overpasses anyway.

It's always fun when the tin foil hats are on too tight...
 
2007-05-01 12:18:30 AM  
btw, thanks elchip for posting #2740663. wow that's funny.
 
2007-05-01 12:28:06 AM  
CommonSenseSurrenders

...this was intentional because they were going to have to demolish both sets of overpasses anyway.

That's GOOD.
 
2007-05-01 12:33:50 AM  
Probably already been posted but:

YouTube video of the freeway fire
 
2007-05-01 01:09:52 AM  
You guys are seeing something I don't see. I don't see any melted steel on the roadway. I see bent steel. Anybody see any melted steel or reports of melted steel? Anybody see any pools of melted steel still hot weeks after the event?

Where's the melted steel all you farkers are talking about? Should be tons of melted steel from this bridge when compared to the WTC---the WTC had lots of smoke and a confined space to restrict air flow and temperature, yet still managed to melt steel and have it be in pools weeks later---where is the corresponding melted steel on this bridge?

Whre's the melted steel?
 
2007-05-01 01:35:59 AM  
I have seen a lot of CTs posting the "cut beams" pictures. I think that the claim is that the beams were cut by thermite or explosives. If that were the case then there should be specks of steel all over the columns and the edges would be melted smooth. The beams in the pictures were either cut with a saw or sheared off. My guess would be that they were cut as part of the debris removal process.
 
2007-05-01 01:39:12 AM  
Many posters have well said that steel does not have to melt into a liquid in order to cause structural failure. So the "melt" issue is a red herring on the part of the "truthers."

General Sherman, for one, figured out the usefulness of simply heating steel to the failure point about 150 years ago.

First, heat the rails by using the railroad ties for a fire

Then bend the shiite out of them

More Here

And this was done by burning wood; I wonder how he would have fared by ramming them with airliners loaded with tons of volatile fuel.
 
2007-05-01 01:46:41 AM  
Glad to see everybody shot down Mercutio's misinformation quickly. The B-25D that hit the Empire State was vastly smaller and lighter than the 9/11 aircraft, and perhaps more importantly it was on the approach to New York Municipal airport (now La Guardia airport).

In other words, it was almost certainly low on fuel, particularly when compared to the near fully fuelled, much larger 9/11 aircraft.

Even then, it still took 45 minutes to extinguish the fire according to contemporary reports.
 
2007-05-01 02:18:34 AM  
dearest truthers,
www.movv.com

pretty please?

/i'm so anti-bush it hurts
//but you people are friggin morons
 
2007-05-01 02:23:25 AM  
Damnit... I got sucked into the retard vortex.
 
2007-05-01 02:28:09 AM  
gweillo8888

The planes that hit the WTC didn't start out fully loaded with fuel. They were only going across country which was about one third of their range. They only carry the fuel they need and some extra in case of emergency. The planes also used part of this third to fly the routes they flew before hitting the WTC, so being generous when they hit the buildings they had about 20% of their fuel left. Of that 20%, most of it was ejected in the giant fireball seen in the videos. Then smoke and a restricted space would have kept temperatuires down.

There was melted steel at the WTC, and reports of steel STILL in melted pools weeks after the WTC attack. Why wasn't the steel on this bridge melted? The bridge had a much better chance of melting steel than the WTC since ehe WTC had restricted airflow and lots of smoke to bring the temperature down. Why no melted steel on the bridge?
 
2007-05-01 02:46:55 AM  
enki40: Sorry, I misspoke - I meant "near fully fueled for the segments they were on" - ie. they were near the start of their flights, not right at the end as in the case of the tiny B-25D that hit the Empire State Building.

As for the rest of the nonsense in your post, quite frankly I can't be bothered playing "point out the tinfoil hat brigade's nonsense" right now. You're going to believe what you want, no matter what logic dictates.

My point was to show yet another glaring flaw in the misinformation posted by Mercutio. I'll let the others debunk the rest.
 
2007-05-01 03:34:00 AM  
gweillo8888

You only succeeded in pointing out your own ignorance of the facts.

As to asking questions, it seems your only answer is derision. Another indication of your ignorance.

You are batting a thousand.
 
2007-05-01 03:42:17 AM  
enki40

Only a widdle bit of fuel actually burned in the WTC towers? Really? Most of it popped out in that fireball, huh? You got a source for that info other than your ass?

You're not forgetting that several floors chock full of those yankees' papers and crap were also combusting, right?
 
2007-05-01 03:44:19 AM  
Is the Fark server on the moon? Man this page loads slow.
 
2007-05-01 03:49:57 AM  
Patty McG

As stated--the planes only had about 20% of the fuel when they hit the buildings, and the big fireballs can be seen by anyone who looks at the videos. When the fuel tanks ruptured that fluid flowed with great force and a bunch went out the windows. Yet there was melted steel at the WTC.

Yet at the bridge ther was no melted steel that I see---do you see melted steel?

Do you think "several floors chock full of those yankees' papers and crap were also combusting" will melt steel?
 
2007-05-01 04:34:06 AM  
enki40: You're funny. :)

/doesn't the tinfoil chafe?
 
2007-05-01 06:25:47 AM  
enki40

Dude you are just making things up

only 20% fuel in the tanks
most of the fuel burned immediately

Both of these things you just made up on the spot. How do you know that you are not completely wrong without doing any research?

enki40
I demand that you explain how you get all the people involved in this conspiracy to go along with it. How do you find a group of more than say, 5 people, who would be willing to kill 3000 of their fellow Americans. I can assure you that this conspiracy would involve way more than 5 people so I do not see how it would even be possible carry it out even if the Bush administration wanted to.

Posting this I can guarantee you that enki40 will never answer this very important point. The reason is that it is impossible to explain away. This question alone can never be overcome by the CTs.
 
2007-05-01 06:36:29 AM  
It was an inside job farkers, just stop licking establishment boots.
 
2007-05-01 06:41:08 AM  
Torok

The fuel loads are well known. Facts are facts. They don't load planes full of fuel that are only going to use a third of that fuel on a trip. The weight factor would be too costly to carry fuel you weren't going to use.

http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/how-hot.htm

The psychological background of the people who did this aren't a factor in the facts. Right now we are talking about facts.

How much fuel do you think were in the planes when they hit, and where are your links. Where are your facts?
 
2007-05-01 06:50:58 AM  
I just realized one way that 5 people could pull off 911.

I think that if all 5 people were Jack Bauer, it might actually be possible.
 
2007-05-01 06:51:19 AM  
Wow, this thread is still hot? It must be the thermite.

enki40

it seems your only answer is derision.

On behalf of rational people everywhere, I apologize. It's very hard to repeatedly battle with people in opposition to common sense. It's not that we unanimously consider the govt. to be a shining beacon of virtue, it is just the implausibility of your faction's viewpoint.

Life is not a movie pal, and the plots behind evil shiat are rarely so complicated. You think I'm closing my eyes to the truth? Perhaps I am. In the same way I close my eyes to the truth of a flat earth or the faked lunar landing.

I mean...I've never been to space