Oh yeah...and wish I could claim credit for this fine piece of work...

silly. never fight a land war in asia.

-1

Obviously they have captured and trained Godzilla to fight for them.

i got $100 on Taiwan in the 3rd round using M80's

Client states should be seen and not heard.

Neither one traditionally has had the means to cross the Strait in the necessary force. Each side focuses on the water battle (AWACS, better destroyers, etc.).

If something happened, you could expect something really ugly at the beginning, followed by an ugly stalemate.

I'm not sure about "beat", but I could buy "could make any victory so costly as to not be worth fighting." China could turn much of the island into a radioactive cinder, but all they'd have to show for it would be higher cancer rates along the coast, and a much depleated deterrent force. Taiwan is really only worth it if you get the labor pool and infrastructure.

Wait- it's Opposite Day? Well then:

Taiwan could totally kick China's ass. And the US would totally help, and incinerate our relationship with a major creditor and trading partner.

We'll be there for you Taiwan. Go 'head and throw that first punch. We'll hold your beer.

Twits. Er, I mean "geniuses".

China could destroy Taiwan, but not take and occupy it. (Well, as anything but glowing ruins.)

See WW2 and the planning for 'Operation Sea Lion', and why it was canceled. Then replace the 'Royal Navy' with 'US Navy', and you see why Red China could never (in our lifetimes) take Taiwan.

Here's a really REALLY off the wall concept. What would happen if they declare independence , then immediately join Japan in forming a new nation to be known as the Pacific Asian States. This would allow Japan to say "we're not Japan anymore so we can have an army now", and it would let Taiwan borrow the giant robots and Godzilla with which to defeat China.

Another proof Fark is full of overgrown juveniles who believe they got it all figured out. Just think for a minute, Taiwan has been thumbing its nose at China for the past 50 years, yes the same China that invaded Tibet, Korea, India, USSR (yes they did in 1969 and got their ass beat in two weeks), Vietnam (invaded in 1979 and came back licking their wounds). So why has China been waiting so long to get back at Taiwan? Because they lack naval power to invade across 150 miles of water. Its very very hard to launch a naval attack, even if you have an army of 2 million men, women and boys. Look at this for getting a basic idea of naval power comparison in South China sea. China comes up short against Taiwan-US combined forces, throw in Japan (very likely in a serious conflagration) and its a rout for the Chinese. No wonder China is panting and swearing up and down but knows there's nothing it can do about it. Look at missile war and in that scenario China faces decimation of its economic might as all its major cities, economic centers are coastal and toward south. Also, think why Britain did not get invaded in WW2 by Hitler, its navy saved Britain, even though historians tend to credit a drunk, bombastic PM for it.

Sir Roderick Glossop

Wait- it's Opposite Day? Well then:

Taiwan could totally kick China's ass. And the US would totally help, and incinerate our relationship with a major creditor and trading partner.

Think about that just a bit...why would the United States want to go hostile with a nation we owe billions upon billions of dollars to?

I mean, that would kinda be like borrowing $100 from your buddy, then getting in a fistfight and refusing to pay him.

Do you think the conservative leadership in this country would ever this of starting a war for their own gain, then sticking another country with the bill for it, while at the same time starting another Cold War that will pump billions into their businesses? Nah, never happen...

*posts direct highlight ctrl+c paste from article"

I must know, what in the world does all of that/this have to do with, as the submitter says, "Taiwan announces they could beat China at war"?! The *only* two places where "Taiwan" even appears on the page is a link on the side, not the link that the submitter sent, that says "Computer Simulation Has Taiwan Beating China in War, Taiwanese Military Says"

Seriously, what the hell is that?! What does it have do do with "Taiwan announces they could beat China at war. No doubt alcohol was involved in this announcement"

On an additioal note, why the hell is the username and e-mail of a subby's addy hidden from evertyone else?! Seriously, why?! If it weren't, I'll bet you *anything* that subbys would think twice before submitting links with misleading headlines. Again, seriouly, *WHY?!*

Kucinich Prepares Impeachment Articles Against Dick Cheney

Monday, April 23, 2007
E-MAIL STORY
RESPOND TO EDITOR
PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION

WASHINGTON - Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich on Tuesday will announce articles of impeachment against Vice President Dick Cheney ahead of a series of protests this weekend calling for the impeachment of both Cheney and President Bush.

A spokeswoman for Kucinich, the most liberal member of the 2008 Democratic presidential candidate class, confirmed the congressman's plans but would not discuss why Kucinich was bringing up the impeachment articles now.

According to The Washington Post blog The Sleuth, Kucinich actually crafted the articles of impeachment before the Virginia Tech massacre, but held off introducing them immediately after the mass shooting.

Click here to read The Sleuth.

While Kucinich is not working in coordination with pro-impeachment groups that are planning more than 100 activities nationwide this weekend, he is attending Saturday's California Democratic Convention in San Diego, where hundreds of delegates are expected to introduce an impeachment resolution against the president and vice president, said Jacob Park, national coordinator for the April 28 action.

(Story continues below)

Advertise Here
Advertisements
Related
Stories
Kucinich: Give Department of Peace a Chance
Ideologues Jump With Vigor Into '08 Race

Kucinich campaign manager David Bright said Kucinich is "doing an impeachment thing as a member of Congress but is going to the convention as a candidate" and while there, will focus on issues relating to the 2008 election. He is not a delegate and has "nothing in the schedule about meeting with supporters" of impeachment articles, Bright said.

Bright noted that Kucinich has plenty to share with the California delegates, who make up 10 percent of the Democratic national convention being held next year in Denver, but impeachment is a moot point for the 2008 campaign.

Park offered three reasons why activists can't wait until the election to be rid of the president and vice president.

"One, they misled the nation into war, an aggressive and illegal war that has obviously been catastrophic," Park said. "They are currently violating the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act" by ordering wiretap warrants without FISA court approval and they are committing torture in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"Very few people will deny those charges whether they support impeachment or not," Park said.

But two Republicans dismissed impeachment calls as just politics, and said Kucinich hasn't got a case.

"If the political pros can't predict the charges that Kucinich would bring ... then it doesn't sound like it's justified," said Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif. "I have no idea what Kucinich would charge Cheney with."

"I think the Democrats in Congress are going to use every legislative means at their disposal to cripple this president," said Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind. "It's not surprising."

Park acknowledged that the decision to bring the impeachment resolution to the floor of the California convention is to raise the stakes, particularly since congressional Democrats, save Kucinich, are otherwise not inclined to bother.

"Bush is such a catastrophe that (Democrats) know he's just dragging the Republicans down, and if they just let Bush and Cheney go ... they are poised for 2008 and that is easier than to just hold them accountable," Park said. "April 28 is really the beginning of what we hope will be a groundswell of support and people coming out and voicing their opinion ... getting this back on the table."

FOX News' Molly Hooper and Sharon Kehnemui Liss contributed to this report.

Mini-ditka with wings VS. God.
In a game of lawn darts.

/ditka.
//by 2.

Not that the article was relevant to the headline, but I'm not sure why people are acting like a war between China and Taiwan would be a slam dunk for China. Going just by headcount, I guess.

Japan, also a relatively small Island nation, trounced China in the past.

Germany devastated the rest of Europe and Russia, and held off the entire world.

Someone already pointed out Israel.


Part of the complication is that an amphibious invasion of land forces would be extremely costly in lives and equipment for China.

And aerial bombardment is complicated by the fact that Taiwan has some of the finest long range and Air combat machines ever built. Supplied by the U.S.

And even if the U.S. didn't intervene directly, you can bet your last penny that we would supply them with live satellite intelligence. We are capable of watching quite closely. Taiwan would know the second any bombers, fighters or ships, left mainland China, and have plenty of time to scramble appropriate defenses.

So while, in the long run, China could probably eventually overwhelm Taiwan by sheer numbers, I believe Taiwan would hurt China very badly in the process.

For China, it would be like trying to wrestle with a porcupine. Can you win by sheer size and strength? Yes. Would you get hurt very very badly in the process? Yes.

@dynamicdog

"China can conquer them by simply walking over top of their land and stopping. Yeah, there are that many of them."

Yup there is a lot of them, but its some hard to walk there from mainland China. The obvious military knowledge of your average Farker is just awe inspiring to behold.

China has 10x the number of aircraft as Taiwan, but the new Ching-Kuo(IDF-II) fighter that Taiwan has is on par or better than most modern Jet aircraft, let alone the outdated and obsolete craft that make up the majority of Chinas. Tiawan maintains a navy that is roughly half the size of Chinas, however as there ships are on par with (or in many cases the exact same as) our own Navy and China still has ships that have been in service for better than 20 years... Well, you get the point. In this day and age technology rules the modern battlefield, not numbers.

I don't know if Taiwan could beat China thou, financially it has the means and infrastructure wise China is very, very vulnerable. Hitting a couple of those big dams and some refineries with some cruise missiles (which Taiwan has btw) could put them right back several decades in development and spoil there ability to make war.. But Taiwan doesn't have the manpower or logistics to go after such a big prize.

It won't matter anyway. America has China by the balls, we are there GDP, if they go after Taiwan even if we don't intervene with a force of arms (which I suspect we would as we only have 2 Carrier groups tied up in the Gulf and any one of which is more than a match for Chinas Navy) the Trade embargo would wreck Chinas economy. This summer we are going to be doing an exercise off Taiwan with 7 carrier groups... Just to make sure even the most radical of them understand the ramifications of messing with the status quo.

Course that doesn't mean we can't let the threat loom to make a ton of money selling arms to Taiwan so she can defend herself... It is the way we do business.

vertigo32:

"I mean, that would kinda be like borrowing $100 from your buddy, then getting in a fistfight and refusing to pay him."

Then imagine you need another $100, and everyone you could ask just watched what you did. John Law would approve of the tactic, however. Our China policy has become mutual assured financial destruction (although we'd walk away from reneg-ing on the deal better than they would).

"Do you think the conservative leadership in this country would ever this of starting a war for their own gain, then sticking another country with the bill for it, while at the same time starting another Cold War that will pump billions into their businesses? Nah, never happen..."

Nope. Never has and never will. Have a happy- oops, I mean sad- Opposite Day again!

To be fair it would be easier to defend a small island than a nation 80% the size of Canada or the United States. Cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzen are so heavily populated that a few cruise missles (which Taiwan has and China has no defence against) would cause utter and complete havoc with 10's of thousands of deaths in a matter of seconds.

China may seem authoritarian and evil, but they are still only as strong as their people, and if their people are terrorized their government will be weakened.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267984,00.html
real link
but I'm sorry China will crush Taiwan and if the US jump in and try to help WW3 here we come 50 50megaton nukes dropped anywhere on this planet will kill it

Oztemprom

Not a fan of Napoleon quotes, are we?

evolved

Trick question. Ditka IS God.

Am I the only one who thinks this scenario is possible?
Nukes notwithstanding, of course.

the curtain doesn't match the drapes

drjekel_mrhyde: 50 50megaton nukes dropped anywhere on this planet will kill it

Not only would this not "kill the planet", as far as I know no one has any 50 megaton nukes. Yes, the Soviets tested a really big bomb like that, but no one stockpiles them. They simply aren't militarily useful, especially given the fact that we have accurate precision bombing to selectively destroy exactly the targets we want without committing genocide just for the hell of it.

China blow taiwan up, it would make them 'lose face', but they can screw them over.

Tsar Bomb 50 Megaton Soviet Nuke - Actually tested too...

/Planet is still alive

Poexxx

The obvious military knowledge of your average Farker is just awe inspiring to behold.

Quoted for truth.

Depend largely on what's meant by "winning" and "war".

Where "war" means the PRC invades Taiwan and "winning" means the PRC doesn't take over Taiwan then, yes, maybe Taiwan can win. The PRC's limiting factor is their sealift capabilities. Those millions of soldiers don't do you much good if you can't get them to Taiwan nor supply them once they're there. It's the logistics, stupid.

Where "war" means Taiwan invades the PRC and "winning" means taking over the PRC, not a chance.

Hell, Taiwan couldn't even beat Vanderbilt.

tallguywithglasseson

The China/Taiwan story is an actual story hitting the wire. I'll report this as a broken link.

Here's a few articles on the subject:

Fox News article.

Thanks for clearing this up. I love computer simulations. Computers are so smart. I can't even beat my computer at chess. They must never be wrong.



China would be stupid to invade with guns and troops. They will likely do it with money and economies, with the military serving only to back up that interest.

that'd be one destructive war. I'd hate to see it, but it'd create history channel reruns for decades.

so wait why tell china that if they just wait until 2012 we will be able to beat you?

Seriously. Does anyone here actually think that Taiwan would declare independence? Idealism is nice and all, but I think most people would prefer to not live in a state of perpetual fear of being bombed. At least with the current status quo, they know with a reasonable degree of certainty that China is not going to just up and invade. It's still a tense situation, but it's stable.

Plus, if we overlook the military aspects of it, one has to realize that the US disapproves of Taiwan declaring independence, Taiwan and the mainland have strong and mutually beneficial economic ties, and China and the US also have strong economic ties. By declaring their independence, Taiwan would stand to anger their largest ally, as well as their largest enemy. And lose out on a whole shiatload of cash, to boot.

Even despite somewhat divided public opinion in Taiwan regarding independence, do you think that the Taiwan business lobby, as well as US and Chinese political pressure would allow independence to happen? Unlikely.

my girlfriend was "made in taiwan"

man i tell ya, those taiwanese are huge capitalists, it's not even funny.

/girlfriend is not plastic

bravo Spoe, well put.

There's of course a third scenario: China hitting Taiwan with so much ordnance that Taiwan just capitulates.

TAIPEI, Taiwan - A computer simulation projected that China could land forces on rival Taiwan, but they would be repulsed after two weeks of fierce fighting and harsh losses to both sides, Taiwan's military said Tuesday.


They were playing Civilization III?

/Civ IV is teh suxxors

ThrobblefootSpectre

The China that Japan "beat" was a country that had already been sucker punched by the entire european continent and subdivided into spheres of influence. It's not that tricky to kick someone when he's down.

If that's the standard for victory, then you might as well say China kicked our ass in Korea.

Hello, China? I have something that you want, but it will cost you. That's right, all the tea.

White_Scarf_Syndrome

What are they making them out of these days??

applause to the few people on this thread that actually RTFA

Japan HAS an army, and they have already deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan - in a non-combat role, but they were there nonetheless.

No one's trying to keep Japan from playing a larger military role in global affairs. If anything, we've been trying to convince them to do it, because it takes some of the load off of us with regards to Korea. The Japanese people aren't entirely sold on the idea, and that's the only real obstacle.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FD03Dh02.html

I don't think that China could do it now, but they might be able to soon the way they are building their forces. Taiwan has also been putting off their military purchases. I think that Taiwan is betting too much on our ability and willingness to help. If we lost a carrier or two how willing would we be to continue? They cost too much and hold too many people. And we have do not have a countermeasure for the new Russian antiship missile that China has purchased. Not to mention the new Russian subs that are very good. There was recently an incident that a Russian made Chinese sub surfaced within five miles of a carrier and we didn't know it was there.
The real deciding factor I think are the Japanese and the timing of the war. Japan has state of the art equipment and spends a relatively small amount of its GDP on defense. Since N Korea launched a missle over Japan they have been nervous and I think are waking to the reality of their situation. If they see China and N Korea as legitimate threats and decide to increase their military they could easily have one of the best forces in the world.
Why would China attack when they could effectively rule the world economically? I think that it comes down to the peoples's unhappiness with the government. The government is very corrupt and is trouncing on normal people's rights while the upper class gets wealthier and wealthier. Unrest will lead to the government's need for an outside enemy. A classic 1984 scenario. Not to mention there are an enormous amount of men that have no hope of ever getting married because of the lack of females.

Taiwan could wage the same kind of war as in Iraq and Vietnam.