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(Chron)   Off-duty cop tasers man carrying his newborn as they leave the hospital. "My baby hit the concrete floor"   (chron.com) divider line 281
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26141 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2007 at 5:06 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-04-16 05:36:50 PM  
So, why couldn't he leave with his child?

Hospital officials did not address whether they believe the father should have been leaving with the baby in a statement released after the incident.

I smell bullshiat.
 
2007-04-16 05:37:34 PM  
KaponoFor3

Well, I distinctly remember the video started with him screaming that he was leaving (so I think he was tased once before the video began), and then he gets tased again before he is out of the room, then a couple more times in the lobby.

He was definitely on the floor, incapacitated and screaming -- certainly not resisting -- by the end.
 
2007-04-16 05:38:37 PM  
It's really this simple, assholes ALL around. The dad is an asshole for pushing the issue. Any farking thinking person would have said "Oops my bad, i'll just go back in with my baby and get this straightened out" Not CONTINUE to ignore security.

The guard douche is a COMPLETE farking moron for taking the babys life in his hands by tasering the douche bag father.

One big giant cluster fark and they're all to blame from the top down.

/feeling old man grumpy today
//now get the fark off my lawn
 
2007-04-16 05:39:04 PM  
costa

ohm'd

Ok, that's not bad. How long you been waiting to use it?
 
2007-04-16 05:39:30 PM  
KaponoFor3


This is the UCLA incident I was talking about. You have the story wrong. The guy was asked to show ID or leave. He chose to be belligerent, saying he would only show ID if the cops asked others in the library to do so as well. Cops started escorting him off the premises and then tazered him in the lobby.

You are leaving out that they repeatedly tasered him, incapacitating him, and then kept tasering him when he was unable to follow their orders to get up. Because they kept incapacitating him. Really illustrates the phrase "vicious cycle."

And yes, he was incapacitated. At least according to TASER, which claims:

"TASER ECDs utilize a state-of-the-art Neuro-Muscular Incapacitation (NMI) technology that temporarily overrides the nervous system, taking over muscular control. This NMI technology temporarily debilitates even the toughest individuals with minimal risk of injury."
http://www.taser.com/facts/qa.htm
 
Tai
2007-04-16 05:39:39 PM  
I'm on the fence here.

The hospital did not have the right to keep him there. They have no right under the law to keep the baby there if the mother and father want to leave, even if the doctor hasn't signed the discharge papers yet.

I've driven my mother, a phyisican to the hospital plenty of times while she's chewing out staff for losing the patient before she's discharged them. But she doesn't call the cops.

And she certainly wouldn't agree to taser a father carrying his newborn.
 
2007-04-16 05:40:32 PM  
Uh, the article states plainly that the man AND HIS WIFE were preparing to leave the hospital. His wife even bent down to pick her baby up off the floor. So it sounds like a case of the parents being ready to leave (middle of the night, sure, but maybe they don't have the cash to stay until morning) and the hospital freaking out.
 
2007-04-16 05:41:03 PM  
klatubaradanikto

Or maybe he just wants to toss him down the stairs, who knows? We'll just follow him and see!

Or maybe he really is the baby's father like he claims! Aw hell, let's just take him down so the baby will *definitely* hit the ground, just in case.
 
2007-04-16 05:41:24 PM  
Pandora 114

Hmm does that mean parents who can't foot the bill for their labor and delivery stay have their child repossessed? Since hospitals obviously own the children born there....

I'm not sure why you thought the 'proper channels' I was talking about referred to paying the hospital. As it's already been stated in here, the hosptial takes all your insurance info and bills you weeks later.
The proper channels I was talking about was getting a final check-up for the baby, some last minute parenting advice from the nurses (sometimes they even give you a bunch of freebies like diapers and baby lotion). They need to make sure the child's had all the necessary shots. They need to know when you're leaving so they don't bill you longer than necessary. Although the parents do "own" the child, you can't just come and go from the hospital like it's a coffee shop.
 
2007-04-16 05:41:40 PM  
Teehee, I made unemployed_philosopher run off in shame. I was hoping for a response. This is the guy they got being TA in a philo course, is it?
 
2007-04-16 05:42:04 PM  
catsass

No, the WOMAN'S baby. The hospital is liable for the mother and infant, NOT for this farkhead who decided to prance out the door with a 2-day old baby at 1:30 a.m. Had he walked, she would have been screaming at the hospital for letting him take her child.

FTFA:

Lewis, 30, said he and his wife were preparing to leave the hospital when staff told him he would not be able to leave with the baby.

Just as much his baby as hers, unless there's something about their relationship that is not made clear in the article.
 
2007-04-16 05:42:16 PM  
Damn Nappy-Headed Hos..pitals
 
2007-04-16 05:42:54 PM  
gilgigamesh: He was definitely on the floor, incapacitated and screaming -- certainly not resisting -- by the end.
bikerific: And yes, he was incapacitated.

Obviously the cops in that situation overreacted, I'm not defending their behavior. But I'm saying in both situations, they could have been avoided had the people simply cooperated with the authorities in question and not have a hard-on for making a point at the wrong place and wrong time.
 
2007-04-16 05:43:14 PM  
BooBoo23

darkhorse23: I think he meant that it was not a good judgement call to shoot at the dad while he was holding the baby.

That is accurate. If the guy's carrying a two day old kid, I would think that it would not be considered good judgement to do something that would inevitably cause the child to be dropped or thrown, or even tazered.

Sure, the dude's a dumbass for not stopping, but the officer could have killed a child.


What do you suggest they do from now on during a kidnapping? Just let the guy take the baby?

I know in this situation it was the guy's kid, but is he just supposed to let the guy leave when alarms are going off? The father is obviously not fit for parenting if he would put his child in danger like that.
 
2007-04-16 05:43:41 PM  
Anyone think the cop would have used the taser if the mother had been walking out of the hospital with the kid, alarm or no?
 
2007-04-16 05:44:43 PM  
OK

He follows to the car and suspect panics thus dropping the baby, or gets to car doesn't strap baby in flees while being chased crashes car kills baby.

Keeping on property was likely the least dangerous option. Real life just works out that way some times.
 
2007-04-16 05:44:52 PM  
"Sir I insist you take a seat in this chair so we can wheel you and the baby safely to the exit"

"Nope"

"Lissen muthafarker, you being wheeled outahere one way or another"
 
2007-04-16 05:45:37 PM  
Damn, it's things like this that make me glad my wife and I had our baby at a small hospital. They told my wife she should probably stay for 2-3 days after (cesarian).

The next morning, my wife said she wanted to go home, and they said "OK", checked our I.D. bracelets, and we left. I guess that last thing was what this guy forgot to do.

Not sure what to think about this. The guy was an asshat for doing something which could be construed as kidnapping, but the child was in no immediate physical danger. Tasering the guy who was holding the baby DID put the baby in immediate physical danger, however.
 
2007-04-16 05:47:22 PM  
for newborns and all minors, i'm sure the hospital has a list of all acceptable people who may leave with that kid, so no pedophile can come in there claiming to be uncle and pick a victim up. if this baby's daddy wasn't on the list, he can't leave with the kid. just because he's the biological father, doesn't mean he's planning on taking this kid to McDee's for his first happy meal. this is from a town where a mom just cut up her couple month old baby. the baby wasn't hurt, i don't think too much will happen to the cop.

/works in the Texas Medical Center
 
2007-04-16 05:47:24 PM  
KaponoFor3

Obviously the cops in that situation overreacted, I'm not defending their behavior. But I'm saying in both situations, they could have been avoided had the people simply cooperated with the authorities in question and not have a hard-on for making a point at the wrong place and wrong time.

Much like there is no need to protect free speech if it is speech everyone likes, it doesn't seem like there is "right time" to make the kind of point the UCLA kid was making. Which, if I understand it right, was that only the brown kid was asked to show ID.

His point might also have been that the cops were taser-happy thugs, and there doesn't really seem to be a pleasant way to make that point either.
 
2007-04-16 05:47:39 PM  
gilgigamesh: We don't live in a "Papers please" society here. If you aren't otherwise doing anything illegal, failing to capitulate to a cop's demands is no crime.

Sure, it's no crime, but it is absolute stupidity.


Actually and unfortunately, in many jurisdictions it is a crime. "Stop and Frisk" laws have been held constitutional in many places depending on how drafted. In these laws, the cop has the right if he or she reasonably believes that a crime has been or is about to be committed to stop a person and request identification.

In this case, if the cop reasonably believed that the man was attempting to take a baby that wasn't his, it is a crime to fail to stop when told to.

What is unclear here is just what was the cop's status. Was he functioning as a cop or as a private security guard. Different standards may or may not apply. Where I live a cop is a cop is a cop whether he or she is on or off duty or in the employ of a third party as a security guard. The rules may be different in Texas.
 
2007-04-16 05:47:45 PM  
2007-04-16 05:29:54 PM unemployed_philosopher

Dr. Mojo PhD: It is the fallacy of the excluded middle!

No, it's not.

You're mixing False Dilemma, which is what's going on here, with the Law of the Excluded Middle, which says that, for every p either p is true or it is false.


I am going with the unemployed guy here.

Mojowned!
 
2007-04-16 05:48:14 PM  
Hospitals basically Lo-Jack babies now. So as long as the baby has the monitor on your can't leave with it. They tell you this OVER AND OVER AND OVER again at the hospital. This guy was retarded enough to just try and leave, he deserves to be tasered. It is a shame HE endangered his child in this fashion.
 
2007-04-16 05:48:14 PM  
Sinto: Although the parents do "own" the child, you can't just come and go from the hospital like it's a coffee shop.

Well from the way hospitals act, it's like "ZOMG all your baby are belong to us" till you sign that one piece of paper saying "Ok clear to go"

of course what do I know, I didn't set foot in a hospital to birth either of my children (mainly because of the way the hospitals think YOUR kid is their property till you sign on the dotted line, among other things...)
 
2007-04-16 05:49:00 PM  
Well, in his defense, the baby -was- kind of being a dick...
 
2007-04-16 05:49:23 PM  
I'd love to see what you wankers would do in the same situation. Do society a favor, and stick to your desk jobs please.
 
2007-04-16 05:50:19 PM  
KaponoFor3

Obviously the cops in that situation overreacted, I'm not defending their behavior. But I'm saying in both situations, they could have been avoided had the people simply cooperated with the authorities in question and not have a hard-on for making a point at the wrong place and wrong time.

Well, I know what you are saying. There is almost always a way to talk yourself out of a situation with a cop who wants to shoot you real bad, and is just waiting for you to give him an excuse to do it. I've talked my way out of that very situation more than once by being calm, speaking rationally, and moving slowly. Kind of like I would do when confronted with a possibly rabid dog. And as a result I have yet to wind up featured on fark (so far).

But I would say it's the ones in 'authority' (if you want to call a renta-cop an authority) who are sporting the hard-on. And if someone recognizes that, doesn't like to take shiat and calls them on it, well...

They may not be smart. But they have every right to do so.
 
2007-04-16 05:50:23 PM  
I won't be happy until I hear this cop's been fired.

Period.
 
2007-04-16 05:51:16 PM  
Weren't there other staffers around? Lots of hospital employees who were trying to get the guy to stop with the baby? What if, say, a handful of them surrounded the guy so he couldn't go anywhere, then explain to him (in small words) why he needed to finish processing paperwork or whatever else still needed to be done? Why is this cop the only person trying to keep the idiot father from leaving?

They're both to blame, but if the hospital is so keen on keeping babies on-site until everything is kosher with the discharge, then perhaps the employees could do more than just stand back and let the cop taser the guy. Didn't anyone who worked there feel like stepping in and protesting the situation sometime between the cop drawing the weapon and the guy hitting the floor???

Argh. People are morons.
 
2007-04-16 05:51:26 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: Do you respond by:

a) Ignoring the alarms.
c) Tasering the person carrying the baby


or b) Telling the guy to stop and when he doesn't calling security as was stated in the article...

Or is that another logical fallacy to you?
 
2007-04-16 05:52:10 PM  
derek20cali: talk some sense into the guy before using potentially lethal force might be an idea
 
2007-04-16 05:52:24 PM  
b) Telling the guy to stop and when he doesn't calling security as was stated in the article...

The guy who tasered him WAS security...
 
2007-04-16 05:52:34 PM  
(by the way, relax Dr. Mojo PhD, my response was a troll mixed with delight at an opportunity to use "mojowned". Somehow I get the impression yo utake yer internet fightin' purty seriously.)
 
2007-04-16 05:53:02 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD


Example: b) Have two security guards physically detain the suspect so that one may extract the baby while the other subdues him.


So there were two security guards just standing by doing nothing? What makes you think that trying to physically restrain someone holding a baby is any safer?
 
2007-04-16 05:53:13 PM  
bikerific: The issue is now: how do we protect the babies?

By putting anti kidnapping bands on them and calling security when the person carrying the baby sets one off and then doesn't stop?

Call me crazy, but that just might work.
 
2007-04-16 05:54:16 PM  
bikerific: Much like there is no need to protect free speech if it is speech everyone likes, it doesn't seem like there is "right time" to make the kind of point the UCLA kid was making. Which, if I understand it right, was that only the brown kid was asked to show ID.

See, I'd be much more sympathetic if I hadn't been a UCLA student and been asked for my ID multiple times when in the library late at night. I find it highly suspect that they only targeted this guy cause he was the "only brown kid".

gilgigamesh: I've talked my way out of that very situation more than once by being calm, speaking rationally, and moving slowly.

Which is exactly how people need to handle situations like this. Well played.
 
2007-04-16 05:55:14 PM  
Are the parents from another country? I'm wondering because of their broken english. Maybe they were discriminated against because they're foreign.
 
2007-04-16 05:55:18 PM  
derek20cali,

from what i understand from my wife (who works at a hospital), the hospital usually has the ability to lock down certain exits when one of the baby lo-jack alarms go off.

Preventing him from leaving the hospital was all that was necessary. A lock-down would have accomplished that. It would have allowed the minimum level of force necessary to diffuse the situation.

To restate, though, that father is stupid.
 
2007-04-16 05:55:46 PM  
The cop should have shot the possible baby abducter in the head. This way no crying about "OMG the baby could have been Tasered" crap.

(on the bright side, the baby would have had his first free treatment for Bipolarism if he got tasered also).
 
2007-04-16 05:55:49 PM  
Britney? Is that you?
 
2007-04-16 05:57:10 PM  
ronnie spleen: talk some sense into the guy before using potentially lethal force might be an idea

Did you RTFA?

But police maintain that William Lewis, the baby's father, endangered the 2-day-old infant by refusing orders to quit trying to remove the baby from the hospital when abduction alarms went off.

Lewis, 30, said he and his wife were preparing to leave the hospital when staff told him he would not be able to leave with the baby. After a failed attempt to leave through the elevators with the baby, who wore an alert sensor that warns hospital officals about potential kidnappings, staff called security, Lewis said.
 
2007-04-16 05:57:20 PM  
Dancin_In_Anson

bikerific: The issue is now: how do we protect the babies?

By putting anti kidnapping bands on them and calling security when the person carrying the baby sets one off and then doesn't stop?

Call me crazy, but that just might work.


You still sort of left out the the merits of tasering and the subsequent and predictable dropping of the baby on the concrete floor.
 
2007-04-16 05:57:22 PM  
Anyone remembert this game?

www.svr-scca.com
 
2007-04-16 05:57:28 PM  
Hrm... We want security in hospitals then this is what we have to put up with. How is anyone supposed to know that the baby who was obviously taken before anyone discharged him was actually the son/daughter of the people holding him? Their word?

Here is the situation...

1) Alarm goes off saying someone is stealing a baby...

2) You see someone with a baby trying to leave

3) You tell him to stop, he does not.

4) What do you do?

Quick... what do you do? In seconds the man will be out of the hospital... He could even have a car waiting outside with someone keeping the engine warm.

I do think tasering was a tad bit over the line... But I DO see how the police officer thought tasering would be his only option.

If there was more than one security guard around at the time then tasering was way over the top...
 
2007-04-16 05:58:18 PM  
Which is exactly how people need to handle situations like this. Well played.

Well, I just prefer not getting shot to making a point to a crazy person. Everyone's different.

Plus, if everyone reacted like me, fark would be a very boring place.
 
2007-04-16 06:00:56 PM  
unemployed_philosopher
You're mixing False Dilemma, which is what's going on here, with the Law of the Excluded Middle, which says that, for every p either p is true or it is false.

Dr. Mojo PhD
No, I'm not. You're equivocating the Law of the Excluded Middle with the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle, which is a synonym for the False Dilemma, Bifurcation, Faulty Dilemma, etc.

Yeah, Mojo, you're absolutely right.
 
2007-04-16 06:01:19 PM  
Okay, so you're a security guard in the Maternity ward at a women's hospital. You see someone walking away with a 2 day old infant in their arms. Where, in the thought process, does your mind go, "Go ahead and taser him, the baby will be fine"?

This guy needs to never be allowed to work again... ever... anywhere! I wouldn't hire him to guard a tree against a rock. He'd taser the tree to prevent the rock from, well, doing whatever rocks might be inclined to do to trees.

/rocks & trees = ancient enemies
//allergy meds = Nonsensical nonsequiters
 
2007-04-16 06:03:03 PM  
You know, just to bring common sense 'round. Last time I checked hospitals keep babies in a locked room with a nurse on duty, and you're not allowed to go in their to get your baby on your own. The nurse will get your baby for you.

So... logically this leads us to infer that one of two things happened:

1. The parents asked for their baby so they could leave, the nurse got the baby, and the parents just left. The nurse may now say "Hey, you were supposed to sign some paper", and sets off an alarm saying you are a kidnapper. Ingenious.

2. The parents asked for the baby, then decided they could would take off before getting presented with a bill or whatever, and someone set off an alarm (even though it was known that the baby was with it's natural parents) indicating a kidnapping was in progress.

So, conclusions:

A. The hospital knowingly created a false alarm indicating that there was a kidnapping in progress.

B-1. The nurse on duty could have retrieved the paperwork before giving the couple their baby, made them sign it, retrieved the baby, and let them go.

B-2. The hospital could have billed them later, taken them to collections, etc. instead of essentially holding their baby hostage.

C. An off-duty policeman fired a taser at a man holding a baby.

D. The parents may or may not be dead-beats.

This seems like all-in-all, the hospital is really the one to blame here. Just because someone tells you to do something doesn't mean you are obligated to. In this situation, an off-duty police officer asked the man to stop. You're supposed to obey the police, but did the off-duty identify himself correctly? It's hard to know if someone is a police officer, especially if they are off-duty, in civilian clothes. And why is an off-duty police officer carrying around his taser. My uncle is a police officer in Saratoga Springs, NY and when I was a kid and he was not on duty, he didn't carry his service revolver. Maybe it's different in Texas...

The hospital screwed up by essentially "screaming fire in a crowded theatre" when there was no fire, and the off-duty seems to have been way out of line.

Once again, the parents may or may-not be stupid dead-beats.
 
2007-04-16 06:03:52 PM  
bikerific: You still sort of left out the the merits of tasering and the subsequent and predictable dropping of the baby on the concrete floor.

Yeah...should have just let him keep on going. I mean the fact that he obviously wasn't recognized, the band hadn't been removed AND his ignoring of calls to stop from the staff gave every indication that the baby was in safe hands and that tasering would have endangered it more.
 
2007-04-16 06:04:18 PM  
If that baby was armed they wouldn't have had to take any lip from that pig
 
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