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(Yahoo)   Freed British sailors say that their confessions were coerced and that they were the victims of Iran's macho head games   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 292
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4682 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2007 at 8:29 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-04-07 11:41:13 AM
The people on the west coast are like, hey chill man, you freaking wardogs. Why must you be so negative, like shiat man. In reality they are living the life out on the sunny west coast because our boys fragged about a million or so frothing at the mouth Japanese Shinto warriors, the last of another great tribal culture. Now the west coast is all hot asian chicks and commerce and these people are ready to pussy out on the rest of us.

Do not forget the sacrifice people made 60 or so years ago to give you all that security you little poodle biatches.
 
F42
2007-04-07 11:42:02 AM
Say what? People will confess to any damn thing if you threaten them with a big stick and offer them a nice carrot?

You don't say...
 
2007-04-07 11:42:09 AM
Jakevol2:Otherwise OUR culture will die in favor of theirs. I do not want my children to live in such a world.

Excluding Iraq (we went to them, not the other way around), US deaths from Islamic related over the last 100 years (it takes a while to change an entire culture) are lower than the number of Americans who have died from:

Lightning Strikes
Weather related air crashes
Ingestion of spoiled/contaminated food, and of course
Wildfires

I left out the big ones (medical problems, diet, car accidents, etc)... so you could see just how endangered our culture is from the threat of terrorism. I mean, it's clear to see from the numbers that even if the terrorists won, ultimately we would end up being a bunch of microbial clouds that shoot fire or lightning from our flagella. Terrorism isn't nearly the threat to our culture that terrified hyperbolic drama queens (read: you, Bush) are... terrorism didn't push the Patriot Act, terrorism isn't pushing National ID cards, terrorism doesn't make cops raid kid's apartments to ensure that the tomatoes growing in the closet are at a good temperature.... these things are all the product of people like you, the terrified people who think you can legislate away, imprison, or otherwise deal with your cowardice in some way other than just not being such a damned pussy. Man up, nancy boy... or else your children are going to be tagged upon birth, then put into prison immediately for fear that they will eventually become terrorists.
 
2007-04-07 11:42:20 AM
PsyLord
Well, I don't really agree with what the British did (getting captured and then "confessing"). You did sign up as a soldier and as a soldier you know that you may face death or capture.

Being a soldier isn't about being a hero, or being prepared to die for your country. It is about making the sacrifices nessecary to serving your country.

Those soldiers should have taken the actions that minimised the politicical fallout form this situation. If that means being pussies and surrendering then so be it. If that means humiliating themselves on television, then so be it.

Also, serving your country does not mean doing an Alamo impersonation whenever the opportunity arises.

PsyLord
The heroic thing to do was to ditched the plane in the sea instead of handing the plane to the Chinese.

But then the chinese could have taken the wreck in a more intact state, from the sea floor.
 
2007-04-07 11:46:09 AM
bush failed! he failed at his plan!
we trusted his vision, but his vision was a failure!
he didn't know what he was talking about this entire time, now he needs to stfu!
anyone else failing this miserably at any other job would be fired!

he and his generals had years to get this project together and they couldn't do it, so we don't trust their ideas anymore.
bring the military home, the war has been long lost despite the current administration's opinion.

/dons asbestos suit
 
2007-04-07 11:47:36 AM
Or we can just say fark it and go corn fuel and nuke plants like everywhere. Can we turn our aggression on left wing enviro lawyers who block the cheap creation of nuclear plants? If the answer is yes, pull back from the ME, it's not crucible to next qtr's numbers. In other words our economy will be able to weather the spikes in oil prices because we'll be set with competitive alternatives. Nuclear and Coal are going to have to be allowed to be started up. You can't have it both ways. You can. not.
 
2007-04-07 11:50:08 AM
I agree the middle east is a different culture to the West, and to the same extent both are different to the East.

Perhaps it is just me, but I think a few of the problems that America has today (And I know many Americans don't care what other countries think about America) are caused by this idea that America is the best country in the world. I live in Ireland, sure it's had its problems in the past, but I see no reason today why it can't also be listed up there as "best country in the world". I have all the same freedoms, even more security (who hates Ireland enough to bomb it?) and all the opportunities available in other developed nations.

America is a great county, make no mistake - and I suppose you are right that in any country you do need a group thinking that it is the greatest of all - but I just can't help but feel that part of its problem is that people see America as being a "We're better than you" nation. This sort of "respect us above Allah" attitude will only serve to amplify that feeling.

I don't know how to deal with the middle east. You are right in that your outside of the box idea has merit. I think it would be wholly unsustainable, and agree with your point it lacks ethics - but beyond that I think it would only amplify Americas problems today.

You need these states to respect you as equals, not superiors. Why, just because we are western states, are our rules and cultures correct? Why are we better than them? From an objective perspective, perhaps both cultures are crap. We need a compromise. (and that's wishy washy if I've ever heard it, seeing as I can produce no possible compromise solution myself)
 
2007-04-07 11:50:15 AM

I left out the big ones (medical problems, diet, car accidents, etc)... so you could see just how endangered our culture is from the threat of terrorism. I mean, it's clear to see from the numbers that even if the terrorists won, ultimately we would end up being a bunch of microbial clouds that shoot fire or lightning from our flagella. Terrorism isn't nearly the threat to our culture that terrified hyperbolic drama queens (read: you, Bush) are... terrorism didn't push the Patriot Act, terrorism isn't pushing National ID cards, terrorism doesn't make cops raid kid's apartments to ensure that the tomatoes growing in the closet are at a good temperature.... these things are all the product of people like you, the terrified people who think you can legislate away, imprison, or otherwise deal with your cowardice in some way other than just not being such a damned pussy. Man up, nancy boy... or else your children are going to be tagged upon birth, then put into prison immediately for fear that they will eventually become terrorists.



Like the war in Iraq I think the Patriot Act is stupid stupid stupid. I am not going to thread jack right and I certainly don't want to put on my tinfoil hat. I have a long laundry list of things that smell of Lindsey Lohan's cooch on a hot summer day in the local fish market about what is farked up in this country since 9/11. I AM NOT one of those people who happily gave up my rights thanks to the Patriot Act and I resent you grouped me there.
 
2007-04-07 11:51:42 AM
LyleDAL:

Wild Bluebonnet: I'll let you borrow a pair of my heels though if you feel like clicking around - if you can fit into a size 7 that is.

Are you a chick??

That totally explains the complete lack of rationality to your post!



Yes, I am of the female persuasion and what you perceive as a lack of rationality is just my wily way of weaving into the hearts of many. :D
 
2007-04-07 11:52:32 AM
The French navy probably would have put up more of a fight, and resisted propganda better.

The softness of the British doctrine is alarming. I would not be surprised if they go (in the words of Margaret Thatcher) all wobbly on us.

British forces were fantastic in GW1. Their tactics and performance was outstanding. Allied naval strikes in the P Gulf against Iraqi attack boats were enhanced by British helicopters and weapons even the US did not have. (US navy created penguin missiles after GW1 as a result).

...but what happened since then?

/Have the admirals been fired yet?
//not heroes
 
2007-04-07 11:53:58 AM
Pleiades: I salute them. I hope they're all OK. I wish I could let them know that I myself, in the same situation, would have been scared witless... I could see that same fear in the pallid face of one of the men while they were being shown on CNN.

They did fine, and they did the right thing. I'm just glad they made it back to England. :)


This response has generated good karma and Totalfark membership. I've been saying the same thing since it happened. Thanks. Dave
 
2007-04-07 11:57:56 AM
"Ultroniar
This sort of "respect us above Allah" attitude will only serve to amplify that feeling."

I can't help but chuckle when I read this. Okay I didn't chuckle. But the point is lost on you that it's not about America. It's about the rule of law being the law of the land in the world. That's what we are trying to spread. When you have the rule of law, you have a chance at justice for people. You have the framework for freedom and again, justice. When justice is dictated by who has the largest number of kinfolk to throw into a battle or to use as a mechanism of repression and totalitarianism, you do not have the rule of law. You have the rule of man. Islam the way it's being manipulated by the current generation of leadership in places like Iran is as a cover for totalitarianism. Why do you farkers paper over the fact Iranians are entirely unfree. We are marginally unfree in the west but the piece of the pie that is free is inversely related to the piece that is unfree in places like Iran. These Iranian freaks doing all this shiat to inflame us right here are the minority in Iran. The average Iranian is probably pretty much apathetic right here. The guys that took hostages in the 70's are getting old. They need a new incident to cement their hateful control for another generation. At the same time they are deluded by their stupid religious beliefs and are keen to get a bomb or 50. Tough situation for the west.
 
2007-04-07 11:58:24 AM
Ultonair I am really trying to include the West and not just America when I say that whole America=Allah thing. But yes I think Western Culture stretching all the way back to the Classical Greeks have more merit than Modern Middle Eastern Culture. it's funny that the Middle East was the cradle of civilization and now thanks to an religion it stagnates. This is the part of the world that gave us so much in medicine and mathematics and science and now it rots. Its funny I always equated the word submission to a fear of moving. Islam has made that part of the world afraid to move.
 
2007-04-07 12:02:29 PM
NatalieHershlag:

Not being part of the conflict, i find Iran easier to believe than the west. Seeing that
1) Iran actually let hostages go, unlike the west
2) The US has Guantanamo
3) Conflicts happen near middle east, involving middle east army. Which army is far away from home and not minding their own business? The Brits in Persian gulf or the Persians in the Persians gulf?


since you didnt quote clearly - im guessing it was directed at me

in which case - you didnt answer my question at all
 
2007-04-07 12:03:08 PM
All of this either or, black or white "thinking" drives me absolutely batshiat crazy.

This applies to:

Those who hate Bush so automatically believe anything people like Chavez or Ahmadinejad.

Those who are so ideological that everything their ideology says must be right and everything anyone who disagrees with their ideology says must be wrong.

Those who believe it is impossible to dislike Bush and at the same time dislike Chavez or Ahmadinejad.

Those who believe if you dislike all of these figures that you automatically think they are all the same. In other words, those who believe that if one dislikes Bush one must automatically think he is as bad or worse than Ahmadinejad.

Maybe in the little brains of some of you the world is this black and white. In reality, it is much more complicated, and the thought process of well informed, intelligent people with critical thinking skills are also greatly more complex than the black or white, liberal or conservative ideology so often spewed on Fark.
 
2007-04-07 12:04:38 PM
We used to have moral authority in America, but we don't anymore.

Thanks, Mr. Bush.

/terrorist-loving libtard.
 
2007-04-07 12:05:38 PM
Jakevol2 [TotalFark]

Like the war in Iraq I think the Patriot Act is stupid stupid stupid. I am not going to thread jack right and I certainly don't want to put on my tinfoil hat. I have a long laundry list of things that smell of Lindsey Lohan's cooch on a hot summer day in the local fish market about what is farked up in this country since 9/11. I AM NOT one of those people who happily gave up my rights thanks to the Patriot Act and I resent you grouped me there.


My point was that you need to treat risks proportionally, and this disproportionate weight given to terrorism... the whole "OUR culture will die!" thing... it's just over the top and contributing to a misallocation of resources that ultimately makes our society as a whole less able to fend off the real threats. More people will die in the US this year from malnutrition and not having access to food than died in 9/11 according to the Department of Agriculture (they didn't make the comparison, but they estimated 4,766 people this year in their justifications for the food stamp program)... despite having so many people die on a yearly basis, we spend less than 1/1,000,000 on helping people get food as we do on fighting brown people who have a marginal, at best, relationship to anything 9/11 related. Cultures don't die because of threat X... cultures die because they become so convinced that threat X is the major threat that they ignore all other threats, then some unconsidered threat like Odacer and his band of merry men knock your culture down.
 
2007-04-07 12:09:10 PM
WorldCitizen:

i gotta tell ya man - ive been on a looooong hiatus from Fark since getting sucked into TFD - but one thing ive noticed since ive seen you post then & even now - you've been a remarkably independant thinker & poster. jus b3 givin s0me m4d propz y0!!11!
 
2007-04-07 12:10:09 PM
Wild Bluebonnet: Yes, I am of the female persuasion and what you perceive as a lack of rationality is just my wily way of weaving into the hearts of many. :D

Just so ya know, if my mom knew I'd made that "chick" comment she would have (rightfully!) beat me about the head and neck for stupidity. But I couldn't resist! Also, it seemed funnier at the time than the "cross dresser with tiny feet" comment that was going through my head at the same time.

Dunno.

OK, could I have strayed further off topic?

/sorry folks. We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
 
2007-04-07 12:12:17 PM

NatalieHershlag,

Guess who would kill your husband, and use you as his slave? Somebody, if they could and nobody stopped them. Have a nice day, enlightened 21st century woman who probably drinks coffee from a pod.

Brits tormenting Arabs and Persians in the Straits
LESS THAN
Arabs tormenting Africans in Darfur
LESS THAN
Clovis Man tormenting indigenous Little People in Pre-Columbian America
LESS THAN
Chimpanzees tormenting Bushbabies with sharpened sticks in Senegal.



Or is it GREATER THAN?

 
2007-04-07 12:12:20 PM
We used to have moral authority in America, but we don't anymore.

Thanks, Mr. Bush.

/terrorist-loving America loving libtard.



That's me, except where noted.
 
2007-04-07 12:13:02 PM
They were within 12 miles of Iran. If Iraq gets to claim 12 miles, so does Iran.
 
2007-04-07 12:13:39 PM
Softens_hands_while_you_do_the_dishes
you do not have the rule of law. You have the rule of man.

I could easily spend hours here arguing that the rule of law is the rule of man, but I know the point you were really making is that our laws (made by men) are based on our ideas of right and wrong, and their laws are more tribal and culture based.

I'm not papering over the fact that Iranians are not as free as us. I'm saying a simple thing - we cannot negotiate from a position of superiority. If we go into talks with these nations with an attitude that our culture is better, and these guys are living in the past, we are wasting our time.

So it comes down to this - we either negotiate as equals, or don't bother at all. You could negotiate as superiors, but how effective do you think those talks would be? If someone was negotiating with me with the attitude of "Yeah, but our laws are correct, yours are archaic", I would instantly resent them, and oppose their suggestions.

I guess my question is, do you want a compromise, or do you want it your way?
 
2007-04-07 12:13:57 PM
I also don't get liberals who defend the Iranian regime. The Iranian regime is exactly what the American Christian Right Wing would like to make the US government. All you need to do is replace the word Islamic with the word Christian, and there you have it. You have a theocracy with one authoritarian religious leader sort of "allowing" elections (of only people chosen by him as acceptable) with no freedom of expression against the theocratic authoritarian leader or Government.

This is the wet dream of Pat Robertson, yet some liberals jump up and down in support of Iran just because Iran opposes the current US regime. It makes no bloody sense at all. Would you really support the creation of an Iranian style government in the US with no freedom of religion, no separation of church and state, no elections for the authoritarian religious figure that holds ultimate power over the people of your nation?
 
2007-04-07 12:14:24 PM
My point was that you need to treat risks proportionally, and this disproportionate weight given to terrorism... the whole "OUR culture will die!" thing... it's just over the top and contributing to a misallocation of resources that ultimately makes our society as a whole less able to fend off the real threats. More people will die in the US this year from malnutrition and not having access to food than died in 9/11 according to the Department of Agriculture (they didn't make the comparison, but they estimated 4,766 people this year in their justifications for the food stamp program)... despite having so many people die on a yearly basis, we spend less than 1/1,000,000 on helping people get food as we do on fighting brown people who have a marginal, at best, relationship to anything 9/11 related. Cultures don't die because of threat X... cultures die because they become so convinced that threat X is the major threat that they ignore all other threats, then some unconsidered threat like Odacer and his band of merry men knock your culture down.


I think Ancient Rome might want to have a word with you. It might take longer but such creeping rot does kill a society and its culture.
 
2007-04-07 12:17:16 PM
Support the Troops?
 
2007-04-07 12:17:40 PM
at80eighty: WorldCitizen:

i gotta tell ya man - ive been on a looooong hiatus from Fark since getting sucked into TFD - but one thing ive noticed since ive seen you post then & even now - you've been a remarkably independant thinker & poster. jus b3 givin s0me m4d propz y0!!11!


m4d propz are always appreciated. Thanky.
 
2007-04-07 12:19:30 PM

I also don't get liberals who defend the Iranian regime.



Not all of us do.
 
2007-04-07 12:19:40 PM
I had no idea the Brits marine trainings also include acting. They are good I tel'ya.
 
2007-04-07 12:35:23 PM
The USS Pueblo confession was the best -- "...penetration, no matter how deep, is sufficient to complete the act." From the UCMJ definition of rape. You youngsters best get with the Google to understand this.

And get off of my lawn...
 
2007-04-07 12:36:52 PM
Jakevol2: I think Ancient Rome might want to have a word with you. It might take longer but such creeping rot does kill a society and its culture.

Rome didn't collapse because of any creeping rot. It collapsed because it was literally too big. The are off-handed comparisons to the U.S. made in that the U.S. contains a large land-mass and many, many different cultures within that range. Now imagine that the U.S. were so large that it took months to transverse it and there were like 15 different regional languages. With information so quickly available, and transportation systems that make the farthest reaches of the country like 9 hours apart (including airport waiting time) we are not in the same boat.
 
2007-04-07 12:38:44 PM
KlumTheFark,

You forgot.
 
2007-04-07 12:43:47 PM
Of all the theories on why Rome collapsed my favorite is that it didn't. I had a prof back in the day who said the problem with much of history is that we like to think of these eras and draw a line, on x date something happened. So Rome collapsed with the goths game over the 7th hill. But in fact if you look into that Rome kept going, the goths left or became Roman. The political framework that was Rome split into two (east and west) and was later absorbed into the Church. Ever wonder why the Pope is called pontiff? Look it up. As late as the 11century CE there were cities along the Mediterranean coast that were very Roman, the first crusades were in fact not against the Muslims, but against these Europeans who were a threat to the church.

If you would like to see Rome today, go to DC.

r
 
2007-04-07 12:46:57 PM
Some of you people are subhuman bringing up topics that should never come up in any open forum.

If you have even one tiny scrap of decency left I beg of you stop bringing up Hea... No, I'm not going to further the inhumanity myself. Let me rephrase this. Stop bringing up that certain song by that certain group.

Have you no compassion?!?
 
2007-04-07 12:47:08 PM
img443.imageshack.us

/touche

I got a fark card too :)
 
jxc
2007-04-07 12:50:46 PM
No dogs? No naked pyramids?
 
2007-04-07 12:53:56 PM
KlumTheFark: fark card

Fark card?
 
2007-04-07 01:01:14 PM
Schlingfo:
check my profile, it's like summon card.

And is that you in that pic in yours?
 
2007-04-07 01:10:35 PM
This thread is nice and toasty, which is good, cause a cold front just came through and I'm too cheap to turn on the heater.
 
2007-04-07 01:17:46 PM
Wild Bluebonnet: SchlingFo, no American condones that behavior, civilian or otherwise

You seriously believe that there aren't millions of Americans who think that "teh prisoner ragheads got what be comin' to them, they killed our buildings"???????
 
2007-04-07 01:19:15 PM
Wild Bluebonnet

SchlingFo, no American condones that behavior, civilian or otherwise, and to suggest that they do is highly irresponsible on your part - not to mention misleading and ridiculous.

Apparently you have such a blind rage for the United States that it would probably serve you well to renounce your citizenship - if you have that - and move somewhere else to your liking.

Perhaps Iran would be a good start.


Would it be too much of an understatment to say that you're a dumbfark?
 
2007-04-07 01:22:50 PM
Wild Bluebonnet

If you don't like it, leave it, eh? Wow, it's a goddamned good thing the founders of this country didn't share your farking asinine view.
 
2007-04-07 01:23:28 PM
As for iran, brittish, and american relations, it should be noted that we disabled a functioning democracy and it was done under both the brittish government as well as a conservative president. When we go around killing democraticly elected leaders we are destroying the very principles of democracy we claim to uphold. This is not an Isolated incident by the US. Did they coerce them? No idea. Has our government coerced confessions from opposing soldiers? Does abu ghraib ring any bells? until we stop an action we should not expect it to be stopped by others.
 
F42
2007-04-07 01:27:17 PM
Ultroniar: who hates Ireland enough to bomb it?

According to history: The Irish, and the Brits.
 
2007-04-07 01:27:20 PM
rob.d
The Roman empire did collapse. I think what your professor is trying to say is that it didn't happen over night.

The fact is that the society/civilization that the Romans built did collapse. The barbarians were unable to maintain the infrastructure and quality of life that the Romans had been able to. You are correct about the break b/w the East and Western Roman empires. However, the Western empire most definitely collapsed.

The population of Rome plummeted, the aquaducts/roads/monuments all fell into disrepair. The very things that allowed the Romans to run their show collapsed. I can understand destroying monuments, but not rebuilding infrastructure?

There are still remnants of the Roman empire (just as there are still remnants of the French, Ottoman, Russian, etc) empires around. That does not mean the empire never collapsed.

It's an assumption by people that collapses have to be fast, they just have to be sudden.
 
F42
2007-04-07 01:29:55 PM
rob.d: the first crusades were in fact not against the Muslims, but against these Europeans who were a threat to the church.

The first cruseade left to free Jerusalem from the heatens, without packing a lunch. So they started pillaging on christians land on their way, and got massacred by christian knights defending their turf.
 
2007-04-07 01:30:25 PM
Wild Bluebonnet

SchlingFo, no American condones that behavior


That's a stupid thing to say, and you're a stupid person for saying it.
 
2007-04-07 01:31:26 PM
Maxwell_Smart

Wild Bluebonnet

If you don't like it, leave it, eh? Wow, it's a goddamned good thing the founders of this country didn't share your farking asinine view.


They did kinda dump Britain like a bad prom date.
 
2007-04-07 01:33:04 PM
Alnaar: As for iran, brittish, and american relations, it should be noted that we disabled a functioning democracy and it was done under both the brittish government as well as a conservative president. When we go around killing democraticly elected leaders we are destroying the very principles of democracy we claim to uphold. This is not an Isolated incident by the US. Did they coerce them? No idea. Has our government coerced confessions from opposing soldiers? Does abu ghraib ring any bells? until we stop an action we should not expect it to be stopped by others.

First of all, who is we?

Second of all, the Iranians are no different than the Americans, or any other human for that fact.

ALL humans are xenophobic nutjobs who believe what they're told. ALL OF THEM. And you're no different.

What you, and the rest of the world like you need to see is that you really, really, really need to think hard about the course of human history, and stop looking at it through a microscope, and assigning blame for specific events. These are governments, not individuals that you can have court cases with. This is HUMAN HISTORY, right now. This is the epitomy of what humans do, they blame each other, then they work on excuses to hurt individuals causing warfare.

You're not smarter than it. It takes a lot of patience, thought, and dilligence to see what really is going on, not colored through your cultural glasses, and not through the microscope that you're peering in.

Figure it out, people.
 
2007-04-07 01:34:08 PM
KlumTheFark: check my profile, it's like summon card.

Oh, very nice. I've seen a couple of those floating around.

And is that you in that pic in yours?

I'm the partially-hidden guy kissing the sexy chica. I figured that since she's got a much better face than I do, I'd put that picture in there for viewing ease :)
 
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