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(Globeandmail.com)   Children taken from parents after being spanked   (globeandmail.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine  
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2065 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jul 2001 at 9:23 AM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2001-07-09 09:36:47 AM  
Asinine - a perfect description for this one.
I was actually surprised this didn't happen in the US.
 
2001-07-09 09:36:53 AM  
Number one... Spanking is NECESSARY with some children.
Number two... Chldren who aren't afraid of punishment are more likely to be discipline problems.
Number three... Spanking and abusive beatings are NOT the same.
Number four... Fark the "Positive Discipline" crap.
Positive discipline is giving reward for positive action
Negative discipline is meeting out punishment for Negative action.
The real world is a HARD PLACE with painful truths and punishments. The sooner our children learn that, the better they will be.
 
2001-07-09 09:46:32 AM  
somewhow, whatever that is said in the bible must be true must be done etc etc...(to certain people i mean) but really, WHY? what makes it so? im not exactly critisizing, im not any religion actually, im just asking questions becuse i dont understand.
 
2001-07-09 09:46:34 AM  
Sheesh, if you can't assault your own children with a weapon, who can you assault?
 
2001-07-09 09:49:24 AM  
Frksamor, you are on a roll today. Again, you've said it well. Nice job.

Your ever-loving sycophant

BigPeeler
 
2001-07-09 09:53:37 AM  
I was beaten daily. sometimes more than once
 
2001-07-09 09:55:52 AM  
This headline is inaccurate. The article is not about Spanking, it's about parents hitting their kids with a wooden stick. It says "switch," which could mean anything from a twig to a board. AND the fact that social workers were called meant that someone OUTSIDE the home saw evidence that the kids were being abused. That means whatever the parents were doing to their kids, it was damaging and it was plainly evident. This was not some overzealous social worker, it was someone seeing evidence of abuse, investigated and had confessions from both parents.

The fact that they were doing this because of religion makes it even sadder.
 
wow
2001-07-09 09:56:23 AM  
Hey, I got a few good spankings in my day. If they dont cause bruises or draw blood, spankings are HIGHLY affective forms of punishment. If your child doesnt respect your authority as a parent..then you are in deep yogert.
 
2001-07-09 10:02:53 AM  
Achtung spitfuoire!
 
2001-07-09 10:12:02 AM  
Mersault-No one is questioning that. The article itself even stresses how spankings are useful at times. It also talks about how this case was NOT spaking, but hitting the kids with sticks. A la corporal punishment.

A hand is different than an stiff stick.
 
2001-07-09 10:15:42 AM  
ToasterThief: Just because Canadian social workers showed up on someone's doorstep doesn't mean "that someone OUTSIDE the home saw evidence that hte kids were being abused." All it means is that someone accused the parents of abusing their children, not that the parents WERE in fact abusing them.

Social services found NO marks on the children's bodies before they were taken from the house.

Though, I agree that doing ANYTHING for religious purposes is pretty sad. However, switching your children for the sake of you children's future behavior is quite alright. I can believe that the kids weren't being abused, especially if there were NO marks.
 
2001-07-09 10:24:10 AM  
A possibility. However, given the state of our health care system and the understaffed nature of several care companies, I find it extremely unlikely that this was uncalled for. To put it another way, for a social worker to come to a house, there has be evidence that abuse is occuring. I have worked in a centre before; a kid whining about his parents being so mean (because, in reality, he couldn't watch Hey Arnold!) is not enough to warrent sending out an officer. Either the kids (there were multiple) gave a corresponding account of abuse, or there was physical evidence on the bodies. Either way, it's good that the case was investigated, to show that there are people who care.
 
MJC
2001-07-09 10:25:29 AM  
Frksamor:
"Number two... Chldren who aren't afraid of punishment are more likely to be discipline problems."

Where did you glean this peace of 'wisdom' from? I've NEVER heard such idiotic drivvle in my life! Children have fewer disciplinary problems when they are praised for good behavior instead of constantly being punished for bad behavior. Eventually, they become immune to punishment and may actually start acting up more because it is the only way to get their parents' attention.
 
MJC
2001-07-09 10:30:41 AM  
Oops, make that 'piece', as in may piece be with you, or some such thing.
 
2001-07-09 10:36:48 AM  
Can anyone honestly look around the society around them (this goes for anywhere, not just the US of A) and not think we would be better off if we had more parents keeping control of their children, and showing them right from wrong, instead of letting them just run wild and do whatever they want? I admit there is a definite line between discipline and abuse, and I doubt anyone would say abuse is right. What always makes me wonder about cases like this, the whole religion thing aside, is in what nature discipline is given. A spanking given with yelling and out of anger is something a lot different than one given calmly, but lovingly, as a way of showing a child they did something wrong and have to pay the consequences for it.

Lastly here, as a side note perhaps, how come people seem to pick and choose what they want to follow from the Bible? I would think if you chose to believe in the Bible, and follow it, if you must follow it literally, then you must follow all of it literally. I mean, apparently all gays are going to burn, but way too few people say that anyone wearing a garment from two different types of fiber will burn, or that anyone who touches the skin of a pig will burn. And also, there are plenty of passages in the Bible about nations being eradicated, because God told someone or other to do so, passaged about children being killed or sold into slavery, and I won't even go into all the indignities women are made to suffer through, and how they're treated even more like property than children are in some cases. You mean I'm supposed to think none of that applies to today's world, but the stuff about sparing the rod, and all the alleged anti-gay passages, those all are perfectly applicable in today's world? Pick one or the other people. It'll make the rest of us a lot less confused.
 
Rei
2001-07-09 10:36:56 AM  
mm, so Ontario's like that, too?

When I was up in SK, there were a lot of really strict mennonites in the small towns. It was really something else, that place is etched into my memory crisply...

but, yes, that article doesn't surprise me at all. I don't doubt there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people like that up there. this family just got caught.

-= rei =-
 
2001-07-09 10:40:33 AM  
MJC... Life. Living it. Watching stupid parents raise their children stupidly.
On average, a child without discipline or fear of reprisal becomes an adult with the same traits. Few children are born with saintly tendencies and most children are opportunistic.
I have three kids. A 14 year old honor student who EVERYONE thinks is a wonderful and well mannered child. He is smart, well behaved and teh product of a DIVORCE. BUT when he started to rebel and test the waters of deception and push the limits, he was spanked. His friends, who's happy happy love the child with out punishment parents viewed me askance, are now wondering why their kids are failing school, dropping out, telling them to shutup and go to hell. So, if example and results are the litmus of a theory, mine is successful and theirs is not.
And... it should be re-iterated that BEATINGS are not discipline... Beatings are abuse.
A spanking is not done for the pain but for the lesson of results for bad behaviour, disrespect.
I was BEATEN regularly, by stepfathers who thought of it as a "You wanna disrespect me? I'll Hurt you for it" action... So... Don't dare to assume your opinion is valid enough to relegate mine to idiocy.
The last twenty years, tyhe kmajority of parents who got spanked and didn't like it, though they turned out well adjusted, have sworn that off and now look at the average kid. Disrespectful, arrogant, dis-assciative to the results of their actions upon others.
Screw the assholes sayimg it's TV and video-games. I watched Bugs Bunny hammer Yosemite Sam, I played cops and robbers and I saw movies like the Quick and The Dead, Dirty Harry and so on but I am not in prison, I am not a drug adict, I didn't shoot up my school and I respect the law.
You know why? FEAR OF PUNISHMENT.
Same with most 30+ year olds.
So, to me, your rem,arks are idiotic and steeped in bullshiat.
 
2001-07-09 10:47:55 AM  
ToasterThief: Just because someone called a social worker does not mean that there was evidence of abuse. I remember reading an article a few years ago about a couple of seniors who saw a young woman spank her child because he was acting up in a Wal-Mart. The man stood between the mother and the child while his wife called the police.

When I was a child and I was acting up in a store, I got a pop on the butt. I never got a slap or hit very hard, but just a swat on the rear to make sure I knew to get in line.

The point is, just because someone thinks that child abuse is occurring does NOT mean that it is.
 
2001-07-09 10:50:38 AM  
I don't have children - I like to spank my monkey.
 
2001-07-09 10:51:27 AM  
If you have to hit someone to get their respect, you have failed big time.
 
2001-07-09 10:52:50 AM  
And besides, who wants to teach their children that violence is the way to get respect? Look at all yer schoolshootings. Geez :p
 
2001-07-09 10:55:51 AM  
Reason number 1 why I will never have children. Because I would beat the shiat out of them. I know I would be abusive, thats why I will never have them. Thank god my future wife feels the same way.
 
2001-07-09 10:57:22 AM  
Parents should administer random beatings to their children. Parents should also occasionally confisacate their children's belongings without giving any explanation. These are good things because they prepare your children for living under a government as adults.
 
MJC
2001-07-09 10:58:59 AM  
Frksamor:
I have a 19 yr old who was NEVER spanked or even ever severely punished for that matter. He is a remarkable young adult who is very bright, very well adjusted and very mature for his age.

I know many parents too who have discipline problems, thay try to control their children by punishments and threats.

Children WANT TO PLEASE THEIR PARENTS, nobody seems to get that - the absolute worst punishment in my son's eyes, was when I sent him out of the room as in "please get out of my sight for a while, I do not want to put up with this behavior". Ten minutes later, everyone would be calmed down and the problem would be resolved.

I feel sorry for all the parents out there who can't give their children the respect they deserve.
 
2001-07-09 11:00:06 AM  
To Whom it May Concern:

Stay the Hell outta my house. He's my child, and I will discipline him as I see fit.

If he smarts off once too often, I'll make sure he knows it. If he decides to take off and not tell anyone, I'll make sure he doesn't do it again. If he doesn't stay with me in a public place, I'll make sure he doesn't do THAT again. He is respectful of adults, does what he's told most of the time, and he sticks up for kids who can't stick up for themselves.

Unless there is actual solid evidence of abuse, do NOT call me with your allegations of improper child-rearing.

My child will not become a burden to society.

Shove off.


Sincerely,
Amy Hisey
 
2001-07-09 11:00:58 AM  
Bevern: Tell that to most adult animals - they will cuff their kids when they act up. Not beat them to shiat, not black their eyes, but gently cuff them enough to remind them of where they are in the order of things if they get above their station.

I agree that you don't get respect by hitting someone, but you certainly lose it if they know you never will.
 
2001-07-09 11:01:15 AM  
The biggest problem with society, in general, is proven by Bevern and MJC's remarks...
Spanking is not ABUSE.
Beatings are abuse.
Do either off you have kids? Do you know what your kids are like out of your presence? Are they teens?
If you answered no to ANY of these questions you have no experience to comment on this matter so ... Bite me.
Spankings are like the lessons learned with burning the finger, salmming your nuts in a drawer... The roduct of the actions means you're probably not going to perform or attempt that action again.
 
2001-07-09 11:01:16 AM  
MJC:

In case you haven't noticed, "respecting your kids" doesn't work for all of them.
 
2001-07-09 11:03:57 AM  
MJC... Enroll him for the priest hood and siant status cus he is rare indeed... That or you raised him in a cave, away from the influence of peers.
Your child is a rarity, not the norm.
Congratu-freaking-lations...
Hopefully he doesn't get shot, beaten, robbed or stabbed by one of the other kids, who like him, were raised without the benefit of corporal punishment.
 
2001-07-09 11:04:24 AM  
Both MJC and Frksamor made good points, although I would say that people tend to confuse cause and effect. Do kids get spanked because they are not disciplined, or are they undisciplined because they do not get spanked?

Teaching in public schools (secondary)for ten years, I have observed that the kids who get into trouble are ALWAYS the ones who come from low-income families. Low-income usually equates with low education. Low education implies not taking the time to think about things thoroughly, hence taking the easy way out.(Beating instead of talking to your kids)

I have no doubt in my mind that these troublesome teenagers were spanked as children to no avail. They STILL get into trouble.

I wonder why the upper-to-middle income kids did not get into trouble? Were their parents more educated, so they tended to talk to their kids, especially at an early age?

What would happen if we were to apply corporal punishment to adults?
"You didn't meet your sales quota? OK, bend over, let me get my paddle..."
Wouldn't we much rather be talked to?

By the way, mean people make little mean people.

-He who mans the sticks
-He who sticks it to the man
 
MJC
2001-07-09 11:05:01 AM  
Well, I also feel that if you don't have them under control by the time they get out of "the terrible two's", you may as well give uo - it will be a losing battle. The terrible two'e is when you establish just who the boss is around the place. If you do it right, this can be accomplished without physical and/or mental abuse. It's not easy, but I did it and I'm no Dr. Spock
 
2001-07-09 11:06:15 AM  
PS... Your statement that "Children WANT TO PLEASE THEIR PARENTS, " is the biggest falasy in the world. Kids, BY NATURE, are opportunistic and self preserving. They do little that isn't self serving. That is the nature of children. They are TAUGHT to please and be a benefit to others. It isn't an inherent trait.
 
2001-07-09 11:12:20 AM  
In response, Mrstickerman, I was raised poor, beaten and abused, but still respected elders, befriended and protected the defenseless kids and am relatively successful as an adult.
So, though yourr points are well articulated, I think that, unless you look deeper, int the homes of the poorer kids you refer to, lacking at home fathers, being inappropriatly disciplined for the wrong things and not disciplined when necessary, you might see a muich different pattern athn the one you presume.
Typical day in the life of one of my childhood friends in the projects of L.A...
Beating for taking an extra slice of cheese from the fridge, ignored when telling the neighbor to get bent, beating for spilling the kool-aid, ignored for hanging on the playground till 1AM. Beating for getting the wrong smokes at the store, ignored when showing up at home with a stolen bike... See a pattern?
 
2001-07-09 11:16:02 AM  
"Church of god"... as opposed to what exactly?
 
MJC
2001-07-09 11:18:58 AM  
Frksamor:
"MJC... Enroll him for the priest hood and siant status cus he is rare indeed..."

PLEASE.. no priesthood, thank you very much, and saint status - HARDLY.

You're rationale is really quite messed-up, you know. I feel badly for your offspring.
 
2001-07-09 11:19:49 AM  
Church of the Gerbil! Of Course!
Church of the Gerbil
 
2001-07-09 11:20:50 AM  
I got whooped by my parents with anything handy at the time, including spatulas, a big wooden board, and PLENTY of my father's leather belts. It got to the point where he would only have to make a motion for his belt before me and my brother would stop doing whatever it was we were doing.
This was very effective. Kids today need to be spanked and whipped and paddled just like every other kid has throughout the history of man. This liberal bull-shiat really pisses me off.
 
2001-07-09 11:21:04 AM  
Frksamor, I had to re-read your and my posts, it took me a while to get what you were saying. Yup, you do have a point, as I can only speculate. Is it not so much poverty, but lack of education / inability to think logically and rationally by parents that leads to undisciplined children?
 
2001-07-09 11:24:11 AM  
frksamor:
OH OH OH Pick Me! PICK ME! I SEE A PATTERN!!

heh..
 
MJC
2001-07-09 11:24:14 AM  
Frksamor
"In response, Mrstickerman, I was raised poor, beaten and abused"

I rest my case - may the circle of abuse be unbroken. That
will serve our youth well.
 
2001-07-09 11:25:32 AM  
and MrStickerman, that lack of education/ignorance/inability to think logically can happen at all levels.
 
2001-07-09 11:26:24 AM  
MJC....Your mind is whipped cream. You do not deserve to think out loud. You are a left-wing goof-ball who jumps on any "study" or made-up statistic and rides it full steam ahead.

Frksamor: Congratulations, you are intelligent and have logical reasoning skills. Kids need to be spanked until they stop doing whatever the spanking was for in the first place.
 
2001-07-09 11:27:50 AM  
Spanking-Hit the child on the rump with your hand. Damage is not permenant, the pain is brief, but the effect is there.

Beating-Hitting your kid with a stick that causes much MORE pain, can cause permenant damage and will definitely have a lingering effect.


The article is very clear that this was not some trumped-up spanking case, but that the kids were being BEATEN.

People on this board appear to be getting up in arms, saying parents have the right to discipline their kids. I, and I don't think anyone, will not dispute this. A quick spanking does the job (the misbehavior/punishment association). That's all that's needed, right? You don't want to cause your child PAIN per se, you want to cause the association so they know what is right or wrong. A spanking DOES cause pain, therefore it does the job of punishment association.

There is no reason to beat a child with a stick. That is abuse.
 
2001-07-09 11:28:36 AM  
MJC


I Truly feel sorry for you and your kid for what is about to happen to both of you. It is this little thing called life, that will be spear headed by college.

It is a simple fact that kids like yours stand a lower chance of survival there.

I wish you luck, Just don't even think about suing who ever hurts your kid.... I already am sure that it will not be anyone but your fault that he got hurt in the first place!

P.S. Don't inter mix punishment with abuse. The line is well drawn, don't move it to suit your needs!

(Just a view of the world around you. Look hard, you can see it too)
 
2001-07-09 11:28:42 AM  
MJC: You said "I have a 19 yr old who was NEVER spanked or even ever severely punished for that matter. He is a remarkable young adult who is very bright, very well adjusted and very mature for his age."

Thats what YOU think.
 
2001-07-09 11:30:22 AM  
Ok, here's my opinion on the matter:

I do think kids need to be spanked, but instead of just spanking them, also talk to them and tell then what's right/wrong/whatever. That's the most logical thing to do, and yes I am well aware that it doesn't work 100% of the time, but until there is proof of a solution that will work 100% of the time (which there will never be unless they make slave crowns or something), this is most likely the best solution.

Oh, and I don't think kids should be spanked past the age of 5 or 6, because that's when most kids usually stop listening to you, so there's no use, haha!
 
2001-07-09 11:30:50 AM  
Cyberpunk's Impersonation of Darrenphysics:

If you're a liberal or moderate thinker you don't deserve to think out loud. I hate you and want to see you dead.

If you're a conservative thinker then you are "logical" and have "reasoning skills". I want to bear your children.

I'm a fascist.
---------------------------
Thank you and goodnight! The previous comments were for entertainment purposes only. Please give them not more attention than you would a crappy Letterman monologue.
 
2001-07-09 11:31:54 AM  
My kid is 8, sweet, loving and very kind. He occaisionaly gets outa line, and needs to be only reminded of the potential of a spanking to bring him back in line. He does want to please, and positive feedback for good behavior goes on in our home daily. Even then, theres times when a crack on his backside (twice a year maybe) changes his outlook on things.

I asked him recently about spankings. He related that while his buns hurt for a minute, the real pain he felt was "inside", knowing that he had messed up to the point of getting a swat on the rear. He is aware that on those occaisions when he refuses to listen, his butt is on the line. Once he has been spanked, verbal correction and explanation of his bad behavior is spelled out. He knows exactly why he got it, and how to avoid it in the future. He, like all of us, needs limits, and needs to know where they are. Hes had maybe 4 or 5 spankings in his lifetime. I doubt we will have more than that many to go.

Kids need to know whos in charge. If the parents dont act like they are, why wouldnt any kid assume hes running the show? Parents need to assume responsibility for their kids without apology for doing so.
 
2001-07-09 11:33:31 AM  
I've never needed to "spank" or otherwise abuse my kids. To hit a kid to stop a behavior is taking the easy way out. Perhaps if those of you who support spanking were better parents, you would not need to resort to this.
 
2001-07-09 11:33:35 AM  
Hisey, of course it can, although I can only speculate again) that higher income = better education(For the most part), although I have seen some pretty dumb rich people, and I have also seen college graduates that make me wonder how the heck they managed to get their degree.
 
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