FARK.com: (2715052) Study shows airlines "just don't get it," because rampant bankruptcy and exponentially lowered consumer expectations just don't hit home like vague studies

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		Study shows airlines "just don't get it," because rampant bankruptcy and exponentially lowered consumer expectations just don't hit home like vague studies (msnbc.msn.com)		74
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biobob		2007-04-03 04:45:20 PM

Nightsweat

Put 1/10 the money of the highway funds into rail for a decade. It'd pay off both by having high-speed rail and less crowded highways. 2006 - $78 billion on highways, $350 million on Amtrak. Make that $7 billion a year for a decade and you'll have great alternatives to short flights in the natural rail zones (NE corridor, Chicago hub, mid-south to Atlanta, west coast, Denver to the SW).

I don't disagree with anything you said. The question is though, will people put up with the land grabs that will be needed, the new stations that will need to be built, and everything else that will come with this?

Also, I don't think you'd get anywhere in 10 years, it'll take longer than that for all the court cases that'll pop up to work themselves out. I don't know, I would really like to see a high speed rail network, but the US is bigger and less dense than any country that has ever tried one.

As for the car comments in other posts:

I live in Queens(Bayside) NYC and work in Manhattan. When I moved here I brought my car, and still use it all the time. Most Americans are addicted to their cars, and you have little chance of getting them off the car life concept.

trippdogg		2007-04-03 04:50:06 PM

If more people would wise up and just stop flying until the airlines fix this crap, then the airlines would fix this crap. As it is, the sheep might bleat but they're too dumb to do anything else...

Bloginspanken		2007-04-03 04:53:25 PM

trippdogg: If more people would wise up and just stop flying until the airlines fix this crap, then the airlines would fix this crap. As it is, the sheep might bleat but they're too dumb to do anything else...

Well, we can't all be brilliant marathon walkers like yourself.

jay_vee		2007-04-03 05:09:02 PM

2007-04-03 04:32:21 PM gradatim
How the hell can you NOT check bags, if your trip is going to last more than a day? Seriously, I want to know. Do you wear the same clothes over and over again? Do you compress all your clothes with an 80-ton industrial press and then stuff the cube into your carry-on? Do you buy all new clothes when you arrive at your destination, and then toss them all when it's time for the return trip? Or what?

I tend to think 3 nights is the limit for carry on only. You can cram 3 tshirts, socks, underpants and your washing stuff in a little backpack, with your book and a camera. You can pretty much fit nothing else in though.

firefly212		2007-04-03 05:20:31 PM

fireclown
Ah yes, Amtrack. The speed of a bus combined with the economy of air travel.

NY to DC, or NY to Boston, Amtrak is cheaper, faster, easier, and just plain better. I can get a business class acela ticket for less than a shuttle ticket, I don't have to wait in ungodly long 'security' lines, I get my own nice desk with two 110v outlets, with nobody sitting next to me (they have single seats-one side window, one side aisle), decent food, and though the trip itself takes the same time, between not having to pick up luggage, not having to wait in lines, not getting stuck on the taxiways, etc. it saves about 4 hours... making the day usable, instead of just a travel day. All that, and if you fly in, it'll cost you 50 bucks to get into Manhattan, if you take amtrak in, you arrive at Penn Station, where you can take NYCT, LIRR, or Metro-North to wherever you want to go.

firefly212		2007-04-03 05:26:28 PM

Bloginspanken

No one wants to sit in a train for days to travel between the coasts. Not an issue in most other countries. There's plenty of local rail available. The DC metro system keeps branching out more.

It isn't an issue in other countries because they have subsidized the construction of a separate rail network for commuter lines. Even though they are the same gauge, many other countries choose to keep freight on one line, and commuters on another. In the US model, freight companies own almost all of the rail, and as such, they can tell commuter trains they have to stop for hours to yield to company traffic. DC Metro isn't going to branch out to NY... Amtrak should be more focused on servicing hubs, but since they can't afford to actually buy their own rails and run fast between hubs, they're somewhat stuck in a non-functional business model... especially since they lost the ability to bid competitively to carry mail and packages.

iammiles		2007-04-03 05:26:50 PM

Alaska Airlines has really good service; Delta on the other hand...

Sum Guye		2007-04-03 05:35:18 PM

gradatim: How the hell can you NOT check bags, if your trip is going to last more than a day? Seriously, I want to know. Do you wear the same clothes over and over again? Do you compress all your clothes with an 80-ton industrial press and then stuff the cube into your carry-on? Do you buy all new clothes when you arrive at your destination, and then toss them all when it's time for the return trip? Or what?

Some years ago I worked for a large electronics manufacturer. I traveled around the world on multi-week trips and never checked a bag.

I was able to do this because I was able to fly business class for international travel (two carry-ons) and I had enough miles to bump to first class for most domestic flights. I was allowed to wear jeans and had the hotel do my laundry every 3 or 4 days.

Jument		2007-04-03 05:51:30 PM

Bloginspanken
No one wants to sit in a train for days to travel between the coasts.

If your train is travelling at 200 mph it will not take "days" to travel between coasts.

With that out of the way, yeah I agree with you that cross-country is really too long for ground transport even at 200 mph but there are *plenty* of shorter hauls would be faster by high speed train than by air (so long as the check-in process for train travel remains minimal).

Jument		2007-04-03 05:53:51 PM

ElVee

I don't know about that. It seems to me that every time I have had an "old school" style check-in my entire life it has taken waaaaay to long. Sometimes it's taken insanely long but never has it been a case of 20 seconds or less as it should be IMHO.

Buffalo77		2007-04-03 06:02:58 PM

Try Fed exing your stuff to your hotel or relatives house. Sum Guye is corrct. Try having your clothes cleaned while traveling. No imagination in this group.

raygundan		2007-04-03 06:10:53 PM

gradatim

How the hell can you NOT check bags, if your trip is going to last more than a day? Seriously, I want to know.

I'm not sure how to explain it. Four days' of business casual clothes, a suit, a laptop, some workout clothes and running shoes, and toiletries fit in one small carryon bag and a laptop bag that's not much bigger than the laptop.

I'm 6'2".

I take the clothes and shoes out, fold them, and put them in the suitcase.

Then I put the laptop in the laptop bag with its charger.

I put the suit on.

How can it not fit? Of course, I'll check stuff if I need backpacking gear, or something more than a week of business travel... but how does a week's clothing not fit in a small carryon suitcase? Is it all suits? Are you eight feet tall and your clothing is massive? Do you change clothes three times a day?

edmo		2007-04-03 06:12:42 PM

This ex-airline guy don't miss it. They have cut the pay so bad it's not worth the hassle, time away, or anything else, even though you do get the pension stolen from you at the end.

So now they attract the best and the brightest with low pay and it gets worse. Hmmm.

Run an airline like Wal-Mart and what do you expect?

12349876		2007-04-03 06:16:35 PM

How about we compromise everyone?

If you don't want to lose it, don't check it.

Carry on your nice suit and electronics and check the jeans that you don't mind losing. If your bag is lost you should get some compensation to go buy new stuff.

Other pieces of advice: do direct flights as much as possible and go for the hour and half connection rather than a 45 minute one.

zz9		2007-04-03 06:21:27 PM

Interesting to see a couple of people praise Virgin Atlantic. The Virgin Atlantic that would love to operate inside the US but isn't allowed to by US regulations. Want real cometition? Write your congressman, though unless you can bribe as much as the airlines they won't listen.

I though the US was supposed to like free trade, competition, free market business?

Freudian_slipknot		2007-04-03 06:34:58 PM

I NEVER check a bag either, but that's because once you check a bag you are royally farked if your flight is canceled or severely delayed. With no checked bags it's a fairly simple process of just going standby on the next available flight. You check a bag? You're not going ANYWHERE

This has happened to me BOTH times I have flown in the last year, the last time on a US Airways flight from Vegas on Wednesday that was canceled because of LIGHT drizzle in Chicago. I, and my family, got on another flight leaving right away because we didn't check bags. About 100 other people were stuck waiting for another 8 hours for a flight, because they had checked bags.

I will NEVER check another bag as long as I live. Then again, I avoid flying if I can.

wingnut396		2007-04-03 06:43:56 PM

More fees to set off an 'atomic bomb'
The increase in lost bags comes as at least one domestic carrier - Spirit Airlines - plans a new fee for passengers who check their bags. Come June, Spirit will charge $5 each for one or two checked bags if the ticket was booked online and $10 each for passengers who do not book online.

So the TSA is banning more and more mundane crap and saying that if you want it, check it. And this braintrust comes up with the idea of charging you for it. Brilliant! I forsee a bright future for this Airline.

Fedex what you can't carry if possible.

As for rail, last I checked AmTrack takes 3 farking days to get from New Orleans to DC. And it was more expensive than flying. Yeah...

Sarcasmic		2007-04-03 07:33:56 PM

The airlines "just don't get it?" Maybe it's the customers that "just don't get it."

Airlines of today cannot support what the customer demands on the price that they are willing to pay.

millbarge		2007-04-03 07:48:06 PM

United lost my bag on 2/7 when I flew to Jacksonville. Naturally, I filed a claim for reimbursement when it happened. When I called on it this week, the woman I spoke with said their claims unit was working on bags lost in the third week of January. She was apologetic, but she also said, "I know it's been a long time, but there a LOT of lost bags. A LOT of lost bags!"

That made me feel good. I 'd like to see my reimbursement check before the Kentucky Derby, but I'm not really feeling it. I hope the maintenance department is in better shape than customer service.

Geotpf		2007-04-03 07:55:43 PM

Q: How do you make a small forture?
A: Start with a large forture and start an airline.

If you totalled up all the profits made by every airline since the Wright Brothers invented the airplane in the first place, you would have a sum in the negative tens of billions of dollars. It's a horrible business-high fixed costs, high variable costs, high unionization, high government regulation, high competition, high demand swings. And in businesses that tend to lose money two years out of three, the natural tendency is to slash costs to the bone, which results in a shiatty flying experience for everybody.

Freudian_slipknot		2007-04-03 07:56:21 PM

Sarcasmic: Airlines of today cannot support what the customer demands on the price that they are willing to pay.

THEN STOP OFFERING TICKETS SO CHEAPLY.

There's NO EXCUSE for delaying a flight for 6 hours before suddenly canceling it because of a little drizzle at the destination. There's NO EXCUSE for regularly losing the luggage entrusted to your care. There's NO EXCUSE for workers going through my bags and stealing things out of them.

The customer only demands to be treated REASONABLY by airlines. If I, and several HUNDRED other people, pay $400+ each round trip to fly 800 miles, I expect to actually be taken that 800 miles within 6 hours of when the agreed upon time is, and to arrive with my personal property intact.

Jeebus - you'd think customers were asking for QUALITY service, instead of just basic competence.

Perfect_Tommy		2007-04-03 08:08:15 PM

A quick bravo to Southwest - I was flying from LA to Phoenix a couple weeks back and lighting struck some equipment in Phoenix and we had a ground hold that delayed our takeoff from LA by a couple hours. I was a little uncomfortable and annoyed, but no real harm done.

Last week, I got an apology letter and a voucher from Southwest (worth more than my 1-way fare). I know you're only supposed to say something on the internet if you get screwed over by some company, but I feel like I needed to commend them, even if it's 75 posts down in some Fark thread that only 5 people are ever going to read.

A few weeks before, I was on a Jetblue flight that sat on the runway for 2 hours and 54 minutes hours before taking off - not quite meeting their 3 hour requirement for the "passenger bill of rights" to kick in.

/suck it, Jetblue

Choestoe		2007-04-03 09:46:03 PM

I don't get the extreme measure of hatred for air travel here. I travel for business, by air, 3 out of every 4 weeks or more. I fly out of Atlanta (so that pretty much means I fly Delta). I HAVE to check bags, as the TSA folks won't let you carry a toolkit on board - though given their actual track record, I bet I could do it. I get to the airport about 90 minutes ahead of my flight, use the Delta kiosks, hand over my checked bags, and zip off to "Security Theater" land, where I make sure while I'm in line that I have no change in my pockets and my cell phone is in my carry-on. Off with the shoes, out with the laptop, and no, I don't try to carry on liquids. It's shampoo and toothpaste for Fark's sake - if you lose it, get some more.

In 2 years of this, I've had my bags lost twice, and both times they showed up the same day and were delivered to my hotel. And hey, if you treat the flight attendants like, I dunno, real people and not your personal body servants, they can be right nice. Sure, you'll alwyas have the chance of getting an ass, but that's life.

Oh, and check on-line for seat assignments - good seats are always opeing up in exit rows and such. Jump on it when you see it.

cgremlin		2007-04-03 11:51:06 PM

firefly212

NY to DC, or NY to Boston, Amtrak is cheaper, faster, easier, and just plain better.

That's great for you, but pretty much everywhere else Amtrak sucks, although to be fair it's often not their fault as they don't own the lines they have to operate over. It's quite common if you're doing the Miami-D.C. run that you'll arrive *at least* 2-3 hours late because CSX decided to park your ass on a siding or spurline for an extended period of time for reasons known only to them.

Contrast that to the number of Eurostar and GNER trains I've taken overseas, which are comfortable, fast (*real* fast in the case of the Eurostar), and usually don't arrive more than 10 minutes late, although most of my trips have been on-time. I'm sure they have their problems, but fortunately I've not experienced any.

Either way, trains are still far preferable to air travel for me, even though it often takes longer. Bigger seats, more legroom, being able to walk around whenever you want, being able to get something to eat whenever you want, and always being able to keep an eye on your luggage are *huge* plusses.

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