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(The Raw Story)   Kurds turn down $2 billion offer from the Saudis to give up having Kirkuk as the capital of Kurdistan. Here comes the real war in Iraq   (rawstory.com) divider line 108
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9872 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2007 at 11:48 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2007-04-03 10:02:35 AM
If we do have to pull out of Iraq we should station our Middle East forces in the sovereign nation of Kurdistan. If Turkey plays nice, we'll offer to keep an eye on the treatment of the Turkmen in Kurdistan. If Iran plays nice and stays out of Iraq and Kurdistan we won't carpet bomb them . Iraq will deal with its own internal affairs. Maybe we can annex the more stable parts of the remnants of Iraq to Kuwait.
 
2007-04-03 10:31:08 AM
First, I would question the veracity of the story. Kurds are predominantly religiously Sunni, so an article in a Shiia newspaper regarding dealings between the Sunni Saudis and the Sunni Kurds raises red flags.

However, even though Kurds are generally religiously Sunni, they are not the crazy strain of Sunni that many Saudis (including the royal family) are. So I am not surprised that they turned down the money if the story is true. Kirkut was a shining star of tolerance regarding ethnicity and religion until Saddam started his mass deportation of Kurds from it so he could ship in his fellow tribesman.

Will the Kurd's desire to have a Kurdistan cause a real war in Iraq? Who knows. Kurdistan is one of the safest and most progressive areas in all of Iraq, and I would support the Kurds way before I would support any of the Sunnis or Shiia leaders in Iraq.
 
2007-04-03 11:28:38 AM
ZAZ: Maybe we can annex the more stable parts of the remnants of Iraq to Kuwait.

Oh, that wouldn't piss anybody off at all.
 
2007-04-03 11:52:28 AM
Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
2007-04-03 11:54:20 AM
fark it, just feed them to Little Miss Muffett and get it over with.
 
2007-04-03 11:56:24 AM
ZAZ

So what happens when PKK gorillas launch attacks on Turkey from Northern iraq? Do we sacrifice our relationship with a stable secular democracy? I don't think keeping the two sides apart will be easy, and I think being in a good relationship with Turkey is very important, as they place pressure on Syria (syria houses PKK leaders), which could help us in limiting Iran's influence to the west. Never mind that fact that Turkey is *the* secular democracy in the muslim world. Can we afford to damage our relationship with Turkey, over staying friendly with the kurds?
 
2007-04-03 11:58:20 AM
Ajakk

I would support the Kurds way before I would support any of the Sunnis or Shiia leaders in Iraq.

Me too. What if they want land in Turkey, or want to attack turkey, who we also have a friendly relationship with?
 
2007-04-03 11:58:56 AM
daveferguson.typepad.com
 
2007-04-03 11:59:22 AM
Can we let them all move to San Francisco?
That way all the caring liberals can have servants.
 
2007-04-03 11:59:24 AM
Ether leave them alone or kill them all. It is they only solution.
 
2007-04-03 11:59:35 AM
I often wonder what would happen to the middle east if the demand for oil suddenly dropped to zero?
 
2007-04-03 12:00:18 PM
BoozePenguin: So what happens when

the magic wand will be waved and everyone will be super happy and terrific, why try to ask real world questions to someone telling a fairy tale?
 
2007-04-03 12:00:25 PM
BoozePenguin

Oh man, Turkeys fighting Gorillas? That should be on Pay Per View. Has anyone told Don King about these PKK guys?
 
2007-04-03 12:01:27 PM
I'd sell them Kansas for about half that.
 
2007-04-03 12:01:28 PM
ZAZ [TotalFark]

If we do have to pull out of Iraq we should station our Middle East forces in the sovereign nation of Kurdistan. If Turkey plays nice, we'll offer to keep an eye on the treatment of the Turkmen in Kurdistan. If Iran plays nice and stays out of Iraq and Kurdistan we won't carpet bomb them . Iraq will deal with its own internal affairs. Maybe we can annex the more stable parts of the remnants of Iraq to Kuwait.


Your assessment... is not founded in reality... not this one anyways.

The Turks will never accede to letting there be a Kurdistan, nor would the Iranians. If the Kurds tried to break off from Kurdistan, we'd be in a political shiatstorm, given that we let Turkey join NATO (dumbass move, I always opposed it). We offer no significant threat to Iran at this time, we cant occupy the land, and we can't hit them fast enough with conventional weapons s.t. they couldn't unload their conventional arsenal too, subsequently leveling Israel. The alternative there, is to begin a war by launching nuclear weapons against a country that doesn't have any, because it doesn't like our diplomacy. Either way, Pakistan's government goes down immediately, their nukes are up in the air within a matter of hours, most likely crushing India, but they have plenty of enemies in the ballpark. As to your having Kuwaitis annex part's of Iraq... well, if by annex, you mean kill all inhabitants, then salt the earth, I could see that happening, but your odds of forming any kind of peaceable alliance between the parties are rather slim at this time. As a whole, we've destabilized an entire region with threats and misdirected force, and your best solution seems to be that we threaten to use yet more force. If you read back to the veeeeeeeeeeeerry beginning of this war, I was saying then what I'm saying now, the problem of Kurdistan, if not handled diplomatically, will invariably lead to the near decimation of at least 5 or 6 countries and several of Pakistans nuclear weapons likely going missing (read: probably headed our way in a shipping container).
 
2007-04-03 12:01:29 PM
AjakkKurds are predominantly religiously Sunni, so an article in a Shiia newspaper regarding dealings between the Sunni Saudis and the Sunni Kurds raises red flags.

Can someone put this into terms I can understand? Which one of them are republicans? ;)
 
2007-04-03 12:02:08 PM
huntercr

Can someone put this into terms I can understand? Which one of them are republicans? ;)


The dead ones.
 
2007-04-03 12:02:43 PM
allyourtrekarebelongto.us
 
2007-04-03 12:03:10 PM
Interesting.
 
2007-04-03 12:03:55 PM
ZAZ

If we do have to pull out of Iraq we should station our Middle East forces in the sovereign nation of Kurdistan. If Turkey plays nice, we'll offer to keep an eye on the treatment of the Turkmen in Kurdistan. If Iran plays nice and stays out of Iraq and Kurdistan we won't carpet bomb them . Iraq will deal with its own internal affairs. Maybe we can annex the more stable parts of the remnants of Iraq to Kuwait.


I hate to tell you, but this "we promise to keep on eye out" isn't a very convincing barganing chip.

Here is something more convincing: "Hey Turkey, if you recognize Kurdistan as sovereign nation, we'll help you get into E.U."

It's a win, win. We get a new ally in the region (Kurdistan), and then we can raise stink about Europeans being discrimatory toward muslims (if they don't want turkey in E.U.) Maybe that'll temporarily shut them up that we are the biggest "discriminator".
 
2007-04-03 12:04:14 PM
degreeless: I often wonder what would happen to the middle east if the demand for oil suddenly dropped to zero?

Economic collapse in the middle east.
You think terrorism is bad now?
/liberals will tell you otherwise
 
2007-04-03 12:06:16 PM
As usual, the Kurds are in the whey.
 
2007-04-03 12:09:13 PM
ranold

/liberals will tell you otherwise

Ranold, you're cute when you're trolling, anyone ever tell you that?
 
2007-04-03 12:09:21 PM
RadioactiveApe

That works on the assumption the kurds won't use kurdistan as a launching ground. The mountainous terrain suits gorilla warfare very well, and there is lots of bad blood.

If Kurdistan is used as a launching ground the turkish government will have to respond. If they sit around while Northern Iraq becomes a PKK staging ground they will lose power and be replaced by someone who will. If the US is supporting the Kurds in this, the next president might be decidedly less america friendly. What do we do in this case? This bad blood goes way back.

UNREPORTED WOLRD VISITS TURKEY

enjoy. You guys will like this. Don't expect them to get along.
 
2007-04-03 12:09:26 PM
Sybarite .

Damn it, I was working on a good Kurd pun after BoozePenguin opened the way for Gorillas vs. Turkeys.
 
2007-04-03 12:10:43 PM
If there's peace, Cheney and his ilk will make profits.
If there's war...they will make huge profits.

Guess which way Bushco will push things?

(Hint: What the American citizens want won't matter. America is a dictatorship now)
 
2007-04-03 12:11:09 PM
We should just attack Turkey. Come on, we could take em. ... We just show up one day and say, `We're taking it and we're calling it Chicken.'

/obscure?
 
2007-04-03 12:13:25 PM
Just want to point out that in the early to mid 70s, Kurdistan "offered"* to become the 51st US state.

*Offered is in quotes because the guy who did it didnt have any power, the Iraqi government would have opposed it obviously, and Im not sure the Kurds really liked the idea either
 
2007-04-03 12:13:41 PM
(Hint: What the American citizens want won't matter. America is a dictatorship now)

(*puts fingers in ears*) la la la...I can't hear you.

/trying to convince myself it isn't really happening, but afraid it is.
 
2007-04-03 12:14:13 PM
BoozePenguin: So what happens when PKK gorillas launch attacks on Turkey from Northern iraq?

Thank you for my first laugh of the day. My mental image of a gorilla army marching though Turkey has me giggling over here.
 
2007-04-03 12:15:46 PM
Mr. Xhin

(Hint: What the American citizens want won't matter. America is a dictatorship now)

Your hyper called, it wants its bole back.
 
2007-04-03 12:17:06 PM
us.movies1.yimg.com
 
2007-04-03 12:17:11 PM
subfactorial

You're welcome!

/ I'll be here all day
// try the veal
 
2007-04-03 12:17:20 PM
Glass. Parking. Lot.
 
2007-04-03 12:17:38 PM
BoozePenguin


That works on the assumption the kurds won't use kurdistan as a launching ground. The mountainous terrain suits gorilla warfare very well, and there is lots of bad blood.


Oh I know they don't like each other very much. Kurds like Turks as much as Armenians do.

But if Turkey is part of the E.U. and we have troops Kurdistan, I don't think the rebel thing will ever really get any worse than it is now.
 
2007-04-03 12:17:45 PM
Jeebus, people...It's GUERILLA, not "gorilla."

*bangs head against desk*
 
2007-04-03 12:17:59 PM
www.terrence-mann.com
 
2007-04-03 12:18:01 PM
I think BoozePenguin and a few others are underestimating the degree to which Kurdistan is already effectively independent.

While official sovereignty would have tremendous symbolic importance and embolden the PKK (and potentially these elite great ape units I keep reading about), I can't see it really changing the tactical situation on the ground.
 
2007-04-03 12:18:25 PM
I offered Kurdistan $3 billion so I'm getting quite a kick out of the posts here...
 
2007-04-03 12:18:43 PM
2007-04-03 12:15:46 PM Sunny Ray


Mr. Xhin

(Hint: What the American citizens want won't matter. America is a dictatorship now)

Your hyper called, it wants its bole back.

====================================================

Shut-up and put out that cigarette before they haul your ass to jail. And that better not be trans-fat in that kaiser roll.
 
2007-04-03 12:20:32 PM
Djembe

Idunno about other people, but subfactorial and I were rather enjoying the mistake.
 
2007-04-03 12:21:23 PM
0mg guyz dis iz all jus da LIEbrul soculist meedia dat wonts difeet in iraq! evrbudy nows dat ders only 2 grupes of ppl in iraq: Americans and stoopid muslim ragheadz. make dem all convert to jesus and nuke dem if dey dont. dat oil iz reely ours anywayz and i tihnk isreal dezerves dat land mor den terurists cuz dey sufurd thru da holocost and stuf. ppl dat disagry r antysemetic librul terrurist luverz dat watch CLINTON NEWS NTEWORK. send dos traterz 2 gitmo!
 
2007-04-03 12:21:39 PM
Remind me why nuking everything between India and Isreal is wrong.
 
2007-04-03 12:22:29 PM
While official sovereignty would have tremendous symbolic importance and embolden the PKK (and potentially these elite great ape units I keep reading about), I can't see it really changing the tactical situation on the ground.

True, but when Kurdistan becomes official America will have to decide if they officially endorse it. So long as it is unofficially independent america can claim ignorance and non-involvement. They can't be blamed because they don't really have much control over the kurds. If kurdistan becomes official and America takes it's side, we will have to deal with the fallout of any attacks on turkey from a nation we support.

Right now, we don't support the kurds, they just do their thing. If they officially become a state, America will have to decide what it supports. The hypothetical situation we were discussing would see america take a pro-kurdish stance - a stance that could hurt american relations with turkey.
 
2007-04-03 12:23:18 PM
I would hold back on lauding Turkey as some sort of 'muslim democracy'. Slightly less crazy muslim theocrazy? Marginally less oppressive muslim authoritarian regime?

Come on, they are freaking having a trial against a BAND that wrote a song dissing the college farking enterance exams.

Turkey. Democracy. Does not want.

I don't think we can ever support the creation of an independent kurdish state w/o causing loads of trouble. However I don't see why we can't support Kurdish development of their region of Iraq while at the same time promising Turkey that if the PKK engages in incursions into their territory we will respond w/ force.

I sometimes think that the colonialism of Africa and the Middle East had another unexpected negative consequence. These countries/ethnic groups never had a chance to really get down to killing each other like the Europeans did in the World Wars. Millions of dead crackers later, look how much nicer the countries in Europe play w/ each other. Unfortunately there are nukes all over the place now, not a good idea to have major wars.

I say replace the U.N. with an international gladiator ring so there is a safe place to fight this stuff out. Use spectator proceeds to buy supplies for the poverty stricken of the world. Win, win, win situation.
 
2007-04-03 12:23:48 PM
Djembe

Ahahaha. I'm a retard.

Well, whatever. I think it looks better "gorilla". Adds a light, comical edge to bloody insurgent warfare.
 
2007-04-03 12:24:46 PM
The question is, if the story has any truth to it at all, why did the Saudi's make the offer?
 
2007-04-03 12:24:56 PM
Thread's over. Sybarite wins.
 
2007-04-03 12:25:01 PM
IronKey

These countries/ethnic groups never had a chance to really get down to killing each other like the Europeans did in the World Wars. Millions of dead crackers later, look how much nicer the countries in Europe play w/ each other.

Great point.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2007-04-03 12:25:39 PM
PKK will be no more or less of a problem with a formally independent Kurdistan. If Turkey complains we'll pass along their protest through diplomatic channels and deal with the problem as we have for the past several years. I'd like to see the problem solved by moving the Turkish border quite a bit northwest, but that's a much tougher job than recognizing Kurdistan.

One of the conditions for Turkey's admission into the EU is that the military stop staging coups to preserve secular government.
 
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