So that's where child molestors go when they die...?. How cool is that?.

boluke01: Ok, I'm saving this thread to cite for anybody who tries to tell me FARK is a religion friendly place. It has happened before, and now I have a great example to prove otherwise. There is no doubt in my mind that there are people here that don't care one way or the other, but it seems there is also a large amount of people that are apparently high enough on a pedestal and know so much about the world around them that they can completely denounce religion all together. That idea does not make for an intelligent conversation about this particular topic, but it seems to happen in every single religious thread on FARK.

If you've ever heard the maxim "don't discuss religion or politics in polite company," there's a reason. People holding any sort of beliefs in either of those are typically far more concerned with speaking than they are with listening. This leads to argument. If you want a polite religious conversation, you pretty much have to hold it in a space where either everyone thinks the same thing or no one truly cares what people think about it.

You'll find the same thing in political threads, threads that discuss a minor social segment like goths or emos or rednecks, and pretty much every other thread where people are capable of having an opinion that means something to them. If you think it's only the religions, you're missing the fact that it's pretty much everything.

Fark is full of friendly people who are completely willing to nod and listen to your opinion when it is stated in a topic where no one cares enough to respond, then turn around and eviscerate you when you present something that's interesting enough to discuss, debate, or argue. That's how time is spent here. If no one's yelled at you, called you a dumbass, or ridiculed your most treasured beliefs on something then you're probably too boring to pay attention to. But don't worry, we'll turn around and buy you a beer later on. Most people don't hold grudges, care who said what when, or intend to hound you over what you think unless you consistently provide an amusing reaction when prodded in that way. Most people won't even remember who you are. We have short attention spans here.

Maybe that's not friendly to you. But it IS friendly, in intent, in an older-brother-noogie sort of way. If you don't get ribbing when you say something that can be taken the wrong way, or something which leaves an opening for rebuttal, or something which people might be interested in conversing... well, then you might should worry.

Oh well then, guess I'll be going to the hukilau.

/the huki huki huki huki hukilau

skookum

Bravo. Seriously. Until your grammar and logical presentation improved, it wasn't clear if you were trolling or not. Obviously, you are, if for no other reason than your apparent LACK of shock at the responses you've received. Truly religious folks have figurative heart attacks when they first come here. You didn't, yet acted as if this was the first religion thread you've read. These do not go together.

In the future, keep your grammar at the same level throughout the argument. Also, keep away from the complex conditional statements. No one capable of making those kinds of statements is that blindfolded. I've met zealots, and their belief structures are much more complicated.

Seriously, congratulations.

skookum: Your arrogance and cynicism turned you away from God, and it's not going to be a touchy-feely event bringing you back to the fold. Many in here have proven that they are firmly entrenched in the Devil's work, and you will be stopped before you carry out his final orders.

I always giggle at fire and brimstone. Picture the above text being said in a high, squeaky voice by a tiny cartoon mouse. Shaking its fist in the air like angry cartoon characters always do.

It's not first-rate comedy, but it's still chuckle-worthy.

Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Or, you can continue to be full of hate about something you ave only ever tried to understand by reading anti-Christian literature claiming to be impartial and "logical" (Boy, I can't stand people who claim to have the truth because their own biased view of the world is suddenly logic). (Ooh, there goes me judging and stuff - oops.)

You've done a very good job of defending God. But what you're COMPLETELY ignoring is the fact that a lot of the animus people have towards Christianity is a direct result of the actions of those who self-identify as Christians and who use their faith to justify bad behavior. For example, I have seen people use their faith to justify homophobia and their opposition to homosexual civil rights. I have seen Christians oppose the hpv vaccine, and oppose birth control and condoms - all in the name of their beliefs. I've seen Christians crying because they couldn't put up a graven image of the ten commandments at a courthouse. Some Christians try to force school districts to impose their beliefs on everyone through prayer in school. They also try to inject their superstition into science class.

It's not oppression, it's backlash.

God IS A FASCIST, therefore, Hitler was god... or something like that. Because god is always right, and if you disagree, you're wrong and you go to hell... just like if you disagree with Israël, you're an anti-semite and you're against the ``elected people of God``...

Summary : FARK GOD.

Tartha De Tear: Bravo. Seriously

I have zero-to-no interest in your gloating overinflated self-confidence, believe me. You've discerned nothing, only reinforced my point that you are both arrogant and walking on spiritual shaky ground. You have been reminded that hell exists, and awaits your kind.

Drakkenmaw: Picture the above text being said in a high, squeaky voice by a tiny cartoon mouse.

Is that the mechanism you use when ignoring a messenger of the Lord? Yes, I know you think all His words are fairy tales. You, and many that have shared this condescending attitude witnessed here will find out just how wrong you can possibly be. And I think that praying for your soul will do little good at this point, though I'm sure there are faithful that would disagree.

Ed Grubermann: And what makes you think that there could possibly be a battle between God and Satan?

The battle will be between the believers and the non-believers, not God and Satan. Once the believers have won, they will then show the non-believers the Way to God. And yes, this is coming soon.

skookum

There's a special place in my heart for people that can stay in character.

Miusheri_Too: This pope says there is a hell, John Paul II says there isn't (it's in TFA). No scientific proof, mind you, just their assertions- which are in direct contradiction with one another. So, would someone mind telling me which one of these douches is more infallible than the other? Pfft.

John Paul II didn't say hell doesn't exist. John Paul asserted that hell, in keeping with the actual Catholic definition of hell, is the eternal separation from God. Benedict, in his own way, is saying the same thing.

Benedict, however, is the Catholic George Bush II of public speaking, and he's not getting his farking point across. What he is trying to counteract is a "trendy" (read: within the past 50 years) belief that hell doesn't really exist, and thus there are no true consequences for your actions on earth. Instead, what people are hearing, or projecting, is their own idea of hell as outlined in Dante's Inferno.

The actual existence of hell in the Catholic church, just like the existence of heaven, is defined in doctrine as a "state of being" which is considered very real. Farkers are understandably confusing the insistence that such a state is real with an actual location that must exist. Benedict isn't helping by using terms that can be translated as "eternal inferno", since he could have just as easily said "eternal torment brought on by separation from God."

For any Catholics old enough to remember, it took John Paul II a few years to master his public messages. Getting shot helped him along quite a bit. Benedict, in my opinion, still doesn't realize when he speaks more than just Catholics listen, and he doesn't temper his speech with such considerations. That would be well and good if the only manner of communication was still delivered via the church like the dark ages, but it doesn't work in an information society.

Hey buddy, Democrats seem the most facist thing today in their ideals.

The kind of support private ownership, but only if the government has absolute control of it. (At least that would be their ideal)

Defined:
"A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism."

I say that my penis can grow to 4 feet long, and you can't disprove it. Do you need anymore reason to believe me? Why would I lie to you?

HeartlessLibertarian

Did you step into the wrong thread? Oh, right. Someone called God a fascist, and you went to a dictionary. Got it.

I think the point was that God, as defined, is tyrannical and authoritarian - made in a fanatic's image, once could say.

i'm actually surprised at this big furious reaction at the pope at saying something that anyone would expect from him. i mean c'mon, of course, he said hell was real, that's part of his goddamn religion and he definitely should believe it as he is the head of said religion. if you're not catholic, then what the pope says shouldn't affect you.

we_hates ...It's not oppression, it's backlash.

Damn straight.

As I said before, I used to have no beef what so ever with religion. But religions have decided to have a beef with me, farking with my friends and their lifestyle choices, inspiring wars and misery around the world, injecting itself on a daily basis into my life... and not once in a good way.

If the religious would actually practice the original basic tenants of their faiths and not the bullshyte that has been added time and time again in the name of political control... well then things would be a hell of a lot happier around here.

Considering what is happening around the world right now in the name of religion, can you honestly be surprised that a growing number of us are raising our voices to denounce religion itself as a massive tumor on the face of humanity?

skookum

The battle will be between the believers and the non-believers, not God and Satan. Once the believers have won, they will then show the non-believers the Way to God. And yes, this is coming soon.

So you are telling me that because I find the most satisfaction out of finding my own answers to life's greatest questions I must battle you? How exactly does this serve your concept of god?

Your refusal to see more than two diametrically opposed paths is what makes your ramblings silly. I have no interest in someday battling the faithful. If the faithful insist on bringing a battle to me then they are not truly faithful after all.

skookum: Is that the mechanism you use when ignoring a messenger of the Lord? Yes, I know you think all His words are fairy tales. You, and many that have shared this condescending attitude witnessed here will find out just how wrong you can possibly be. And I think that praying for your soul will do little good at this point, though I'm sure there are faithful that would disagree.

No, it's the mechanism I use in getting you to post more. This is pure gold in post form.

For what it's worth, several parables and common-sense life lessons in the Bible I consider to be good nuggets of truth. Just like I believe there's good things to be read in the Vedanta Sutras of Hinduism, the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Quran, the Tao, and pretty much every other holy book out there. The central core - "hey folks, don't suck" - is a very worthy and needed message. It just always gets wrapped up in layer after layer of rules, ancient laws, poorly-aging proverbs, ceremonial nonsense, and so on and so forth until no one remembers that the key thing is simply not to suck.

Somehow, I think the reputed Second Coming of the Christian Lord would prefer relaxing with me and a glass of miracle-wine than spending any time with Christian fundamentalists. You're just too tightly wound.

Damnation is real and eternal, otherwise there would be no WalMart flame wars.

Tartha De Tear: I think the point was that God, as defined, is tyrannical and authoritarian - made in a fanatic's image, once could say

And what you refuse to understand is that He only appears that way because of your refusal to accept His word.

The pope has confirmed that hell and damnation "real and eternal"

About six billion dumb people actually believe this shiat.


/atheist

Drakkenmaw: Somehow, I think the reputed Second Coming of the Christian Lord would prefer relaxing with me and a glass of miracle-wine than spending any time with Christian fundamentalists

Statements like this only prove to me that the Devil has done his work too well.

The prophecies say otherwise:

The kings of the earth, the nobles, the military officers, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid themselves in caves and among mountain crags.

They cried out to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come and who can withstand it?"

Well put, nashBridges, but I think your point wavered when it steered toward a Mcluhanish "message is the media" stance which is the sense I got from your "doesn't work in the information society" comment.

Too often I see off-the-cuff, snidish remarks offered up as bona fide reasoning when it's just drivel, and I can't for the life of me imagine anyone except the lowest of brow accepting that train of thinking as valid...but it seems to be acceptable these days to shoot from the hip, ignore any and all rhetorical devices, and just stamp the foot and say "BECAUSE!!!!" How childish and tiring. Sadly, rather than being jeered as childish and tiring (as they should be) such remarks nowadays are regarded as the pinnacle of wit. That is a sorry indictment of our culture.

Well Done!

2007-03-27 10:34:32 PM skookum


Tartha De Tear: I think the point was that God, as defined, is tyrannical and authoritarian - made in a fanatic's image, once could say

And what you refuse to understand is that He only appears that way because of your refusal to accept His word.


You can do better than that. You should've said


What you refuse to understand is that He only appears that way because you fail to understand the infinite nature of his mercy, love, and knowledge. If you truly understood what it means for Him to love unconditionally, you would see why you should submit your will to him.


Don't make me do your work for you.

skookum
Statements like this only prove to me that the Devil has done his work too well.

Why must the Devil be behind someone having their own idea? Are you really calling reason the Devil? This would at least be consistent since you have demonstrated no capacity for reason here.

Humans can and will continue to think for themselves. Dismissing any ideas which do not fit into your own slanted view of the world as the work of the Devil reduces you to less than human.

I'll return this serve!

2007-03-27 10:47:05 PM Owangotang

skookum
Statements like this only prove to me that the Devil has done his work too well.

Why must the Devil be behind someone having their own idea? Are you really calling reason the Devil? This would at least be consistent since you have demonstrated no capacity for reason here.

Humans can and will continue to think for themselves. Dismissing any ideas which do not fit into your own slanted view of the world as the work of the Devil reduces you to less than human.

Your free will is a gift from Him. The perversity you display by using this gift to alienate yourself from the warmth of His Grace is only overshadowed by the continued hubris you display by claiming a truth separate from Him and His Word.

//heh

skookum: The kings of the earth, the nobles, the military officers, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid themselves in caves and among mountain crags.

They cried out to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come and who can withstand it?"

Yes yes, I've read the book and even taken a look at "Apocamon," the cheery anime-inspired cartoon version. By the way, most biblical scholars believe that John's Book of Revelation directly applies to a coming apocalypse that was supposed to happen during his lifetime as the few existing Christians faced persecution and potential annihilation by the pet faiths of other states - a direct critique of living rulers who were threatening the spread of fledgling Christianity at the time. As such, it's about 1500 years out of date. Y'know, just a fun fact.

But please, continue. All ears.

Tartha De Tear: You can do better than that.

The more I stay in this thread, I can see that the Devil does indeed possess you. There may be no mercy for you when the time comes, because you ignored the warnings of His faithful. This may be your last chance to realize this.

Owangotang: Why must the Devil be behind someone having their own idea?

To put it simply, the Devil was cast out for having his "own idea" about what God had planned for him.

Dismissing any ideas which do not fit into your own slanted view of the world as the work of the Devil reduces you to less than human.

Again, my pronouncements here are warnings. You can take up this issue with God himself when you are judged.

clambot: Well put, nashBridges, but I think your point wavered when it steered toward a Mcluhanish "message is the media" stance which is the sense I got from your "doesn't work in the information society" comment.

That's not what I meant, I was just too lazy to type out the entire explanation (in my mind):

It is my belief that when he speaks to a congregation, which is when these "snafus" usually occur, he forgets that everyone is listening. Trace back most of his comments that have caused even a tiny bit of controversy, and the man was speaking as a priest at a Mass, not necessarily as the Pope. In the past, those comments would have been intercepted before they made it the world over, but now he does not have that luxury.

He has at least three roles I can think of he has to fulfill - as a priest, as an administrator of the Vatican, and as Pope. Where I think he is failing is that he thinks he can isolate himself into one role, and in today's hyperactive society he might not be able to do so.

I'm not sure if that makes it any more clear, but it's my thinking on the subject. It's not "message is the media" so much as my thinking that he should try harder to clarify his messages.

Tartha De Tear
Your free will is a gift from Him. The perversity you display by using this gift to alienate yourself from the warmth of His Grace is only overshadowed by the continued hubris you display by claiming a truth separate from Him and His Word.

Heh nicely done.

Predestination tends to erode the idea of free will concerning our own ability to influence whether or not we go to heaven or hell. Tell me, if your god is all knowing then how can we humans truly have a free will which we can exercise to infulence our soul's eternal place?

I think I love you, skookum.

Dammit! Owangotang, we'll continue this game some other time. It's really fun playing the Lord High Inquisitor. I really have to finish up a mid-term.

//Employed, going to school for personal fulfillment
///Jesus told me to, so it's all good

Drakkenmaw:

You make good points, and I don't disagree with you. It's just that I'm not a fan of people telling other individuals that their viewpoint is wrong (in this case roughly a billion people), and somehow presenting themselves as superior in the process. I could have phrased it better, it was a long long shiatty day and that most likely affected that post. But, I have since been to the bar, had some hotwings and beer, and now can have a more intelligible discussion about such things. In no way do I think this is the entire FARK community, I have had good discussions here, and I do abstain from the political ones because those usually end up in a "my party is better that yours" shouting match. Don't worry I don't hold grudges either

Does, um, Satan still play for the Sabres?

hmmmmm.......

If I am a sinner, I'll be cast into a place where there is fire and pain and torment forever...by an invisible being who loves us unconditionally. Yeah......that makes sense.

skookum: To put it simply, the Devil was cast out for having his "own idea" about what God had planned for him.

Oh, but what indeed was that quote of Milton...

"The mind is it's own place, and of itself can make a heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven."

Yes, I think that's it.

skookum
To put it simply, the Devil was cast out for having his "own idea" about what God had planned for him.

If god has a plan for all of us then why would we be granted the ability to exercise a free will? Your god is all knowing so surely she must know what we will ultimately end up doing while we are alive. Why would god insist upon making humanity think we have a choice?

And of course you are mistaken about the message in the Book of Revelation.

It very accurately describes the End Times, and the details of the vision very accurately parallel the secular hedonistic present day we live. Once the compelling events unfold will this become clear to the jeering non-believers in which the wrath of God will then be directed.

It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another, "We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.

Tartha De Tear

Good luck. I suggest actually studying the material to be tested on instead of blindly having faith in your ability to pass.

/Sorry couldn't help myself
//Seriously, I wish you well

Finally, a church for all you scoundrels, tricksters and stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herders!

meh...

skookum
And of course you are mistaken about the message in the Book of Revelation.

It very accurately describes the End Times, and the details of the vision very accurately parallel the secular hedonistic present day we live. Once the compelling events unfold will this become clear to the jeering non-believers in which the wrath of God will then be directed.

Revelation also mentions a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns, 10 crowns, and a blasphemous name on the heads.

There is no such beast; similarly there will be no "End Times" as you describe.

Owangotang: Revelation also mentions a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns, 10 crowns, and a blasphemous name on the heads.

Again, this will be very easily understood once the elements of the prophecy are set in motion. Let's just say that I would be very surprised if the Beast mentioned in Scripture emerged from the conflicts in the Middle East.

There is no such beast; similarly there will be no "End Times" as you describe.

And your smugness is noticed, but it doesn't get you off the hook with God. If I were you, I'd be repenting and praying for your future.

"Freedom of choice is what you've got.
Freedom from choice is what you want."

DEVO

skookum: It very accurately describes the End Times, and the details of the vision very accurately parallel the secular hedonistic present day we live. Once the compelling events unfold will this become clear to the jeering non-believers in which the wrath of God will then be directed.

...Ah, but I'm hardly a jeering non-believer. I'm more of a giggling non-believer.

Here, I'll tell you what - when we get to the bit of the seven trumpets, and entire thirds of the earth being consumed in various things, I'll convert. The signs will be pretty well incontrovertible at that point, so I'll have exactly what I asked for in the first place: a given piece of coherent proof that one religion or another is actually right about something other than generic suggestions about how to be nice to one-another. But don't hold your breath waiting for that moment.

It was easier to get people into a faith when the Christian God actually performed miracles that meant something worth a damn, wasn't it? Y'know, when burning crosses appeared in the sky and rivers turned to blood. The "Holy Mother in a Sticky Bun" thing just isn't selling me.

skookum

It would behoove you NOT to interpret the lord's word in any way other than absolutely literally. Else you might inject your own sinful meaning into His holy word and grossly pervert his warning for us all.

Personally, I can't wait to see Godzilla fight the 7 headed, 10 horned, 10 crowned King Ghidorah!

It's gonna be AWESOME!!!

Bevets
All Truth is God's Truth. If something clearly contradicts the Word of God, it can not be true. I have found no exceptions to this.

What about the times when the "word of god" contradicts itself? Doesn't the existence of contradictions in the "word of god" disqualify it as truth? Please explain.

skookum
Again, this will be very easily understood once the elements of the prophecy are set in motion. Let's just say that I would be very surprised if the Beast mentioned in Scripture emerged from the conflicts in the Middle East.

And your smugness is noticed, but it doesn't get you off the hook with God. If I were you, I'd be repenting and praying for your future.

I have done nothing wrong, therefore I shall not repent. A god could very well reveal the mysteries of the universe to me, yet somehow I am left to rely upon my own reason and intellect to decipher the world. If my attempts do not please god then why would he force me to do so in the first place?