Tartha De Tear
Let's run this one through the ringer.

1. There are no new ideas in the world. Every story written within the last...oh, 2000 years is a remake of other stories.

2. Some of these stories illustrate points. It's probably not much of a stretch to say that there are no new fundamental ideas, but rather nuances, extrapolations, and so on. Sure, you could point at Hume, Kant, Leibniz, Newton, Kepler...but then you'd have to point to Plato, Pythagoras, Euclid, and their kind.

3. All the points we can make are derived from old ideas.

4. It's possible, but not guaranteed, that a 2000 year old story COULD prove SOMETHING that is relevant to today.

No, I don't agree with Bevets. Let's not get too farking lazy, though.

How is it lazy to say that 2000 year old stories only prove the existence of 2000 year old stories? Illustrating points and introducing concepts is wonderful and all but neither prove anything.

These stories may provide us with some knowledge, maybe not. They are certainly not invulnerable proof of anything besides the fact that these stories exist.

Also "severe" and "way epic"

/yep

2007-03-27 06:44:09 PM whatshisname


Tartha De Tear: It's probably not much of a stretch to say that there are no new fundamental ideas, but rather nuances, extrapolations, and so on.

Einstein would like a word with you.

He might, but it might be to point at Gauss, who then might point at someone else.

If one looks at the original texts of the Bible (in Greek), the word "Hell" NEVER appears. In some places it says "Gehenna" or "the valley of the son of Hinnom" which is an actual place ON Earth; a place where people of Israel were actually burned. Jesus only spoke of this place metaphorically,in parables. The other way "hell" was translated was from the word "tartaros," which is Greek, or "Sheol", which is Hebrew. Both meaning "the grave." The NT states that the souls of everyone go to Sheol where they rest until the day of Judgment. How can dead be tormented in Hell (Sheol) when "the dead know nothing"? (Ecclesiastes 9:5) No reference to fire and eternal punishment in death with either of this translations.

When the Bible talks about the Lake of Fire (which is NOT Hell), everyone thinks pain and suffering. But the in Semitic Middle East, fire is a symbol of GOD. Jesus said "He came to send fire on the earth and He yearned for it to be kindled." (Luke 12:49)
Obviously he is talking about fire in the sense of God, not suffering. Moreover, when the Bible talks about the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the word "Brimstone" is translated from the word "Theion" which means "Divine." So in other words the "Lake of fire and Brimstone" should really translate into "Lake of Divine Purification" This is not where man is destroyed, but his sin is destroyed.

According to the Bible everyone will be saved:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO ALL" --Titus 2:11

"for as ALL die in Adam, so ALL will be made alive in Christ" --Corinthians 15:22

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself" --John 12:32

"For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe" -- 1 Timothy 4:10

2007-03-27 06:46:46 PM Owangotang

Tartha De Tear
Let's run this one through the ringer.

1. There are no new ideas in the world. Every story written within the last...oh, 2000 years is a remake of other stories.

2. Some of these stories illustrate points. It's probably not much of a stretch to say that there are no new fundamental ideas, but rather nuances, extrapolations, and so on. Sure, you could point at Hume, Kant, Leibniz, Newton, Kepler...but then you'd have to point to Plato, Pythagoras, Euclid, and their kind.

3. All the points we can make are derived from old ideas.

4. It's possible, but not guaranteed, that a 2000 year old story COULD prove SOMETHING that is relevant to today.

No, I don't agree with Bevets. Let's not get too farking lazy, though.

How is it lazy to say that 2000 year old stories only prove the existence of 2000 year old stories? Illustrating points and introducing concepts is wonderful and all but neither prove anything.

These stories may provide us with some knowledge, maybe not. They are certainly not invulnerable proof of anything besides the fact that these stories exist.


Given that you're granting that a story can be proved (a 2000 year old one, at that) it's a huge jump from saying it's not guaranteed to be able to prove anything recent to saying it's guaranteed to not be able to prove anything recent.

Owangotang

Look, I get your point. I agree with you - the Bible is not a source of authority for me either, so the stories don't stand as proof of anything. Rather, they have to present a case and show it to be true. Of course, agreeing on what that means is what gets us here in the first place, right?

Pieces, my brother. Peese.

2007-03-27 06:46:33 PM Mugato


At this point in human history, can't we all just agree that WE DON'T KNOW? You don't know. You don't. Really. Therefore, how would you presume to preach to anyone else? SO LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE ALONE.

You're assuming that Bevets cares about what we know about what we know. That's not a good assumption to make about him or people who agree with him.

LittleFishy: /yep

Toonies?

Sorry you're not up on Canadian money enough to post a joke properly. God must not love you enough.

I believe the pair on the bottom are what you were looking for:

$30 for eternal salvation or TRIPLE YOUR MONEY BACK!

Learn to tap your hidden powers of abnormality. Cast off the Conspiracy's mental shackles and freak out!

Superior mutants are destined to rule this "Planet of the Clocks" when their righteous vengeance comes on X-Day. The Time of Pee is now. Men are judged by the content of their urine and not their character. Mediocretins and pinkboys think they've got it "all locked up" but "Bob" is the long overdue enema for a constipated society. "Bob" is here to help them BLOW IT OUT THEIR ASS. Either do your duty, now - for the future, or get off the pot...

You've got to learn to think for yourself, but only "Bob" can show you how!

www.subgenius.com

As has been said above, Hell is mentioned many times in the Bible. It is an accepted component of the structure of Christian reality. That's fine.

My personal dilemma is in the nature of Hell. The Bible - that is, the King James Bible - is known to be fraught with mistranslations and fabrications meant to lend further powers to both church leaders and King James himself, at the time. A lot of what's in the KJV is scare-tactic bullhonky, meant to control the masses.

Besides, it seems illogical that the loving All-Father would cast his children into infinite torment as punishment for transgressions during their finite, mortal time.

I could go on and on about this, from Baalim's Moloch and Baal as possible origins of the "Satan" character, to Sikhism's eschatology and the final salvation of all souls. But it would take a long time, and most people would rather chirp mindlessly against any kind of theology or mythology.

A good starter book for anyone interested would be Lewis M. Hopf's "Religions of the World." The book is a bit pricey, but worth the money if you have an interest in this stuff.

jingks: do you know a lot of catholic evangelists?

I don't know any, never have. Here in Chicago the conversion thing isn't even present. Instead we've had a Cardinal who said mass with the Episcopal archbishop, the Greek Orthodox patriarch and a rabbi.

And for those who don't know or don't get it Gahenna != Hell

Athiest, Buddhist, Catholic, Dervish or Embu,
Frisian, Gaoshan, Hopi, Islam, Jew,
Khasi, Lebu, Montauk, Naga, Ovimbundu,
Pantheist, Quaker, Raelian, Shinto or Tembu,
Ungwe, Vodoun, Wiccan, Xango, Yao and Zulu,
If you haven't sent your thirty bucks,
You can all just go get f*cked,
That goes for you and you and you...

Praise "Bob"!

Trust me, by the time you make it to Christian Heaven you'll wish you'd paid to go to SubGenius Helle.

I pulled God the Father's beard. Lo and behold, it came away in my hand! At first, I was rather startled. But he winked at me and said: "It's a false one that I put on for the benefit of self-important people who, otherwise, wouldn't take me seriously."

Tartha De Tear
Look, I get your point. I agree with you - the Bible is not a source of authority for me either, so the stories don't stand as proof of anything. Rather, they have to present a case and show it to be true. Of course, agreeing on what that means is what gets us here in the first place, right?

Pieces, my brother. Peese.

I'm not convinced you do get my point but that may be my fault. Who knows.

We all have to establish requirements for what constitutes proof. It simply makes me sad that the religiously fervent such as Bevets can settle for so little to be required.

/"If you're doing it right, no one will be sure you've done anything at all."

Owangotang

For the Bevets crowd, the Bible is proof. It's authoritative in a way that supersedes scientific inquiry, our own senses, and our own experiences. Until you find a way to communicate with them in terms they can correlate with what they understand, you're out of luck as far as convincing them of anything goes.

Of course...vice versa for them talking to you. And me, for that matter.

Bevets: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

See there Bevets - that pretty much contradicts a lot of the other quotes you have there. Belief in Jesus, depending on your sect, is all that is required for salvation. Others insist that you must repent your sins, confess, all that.

I tend to look at it like this: you have a choice as to how you wish to live your life. If you live by hate, you live in hatred. If you sin, you are the sin. I think the meaning of John's 3:16 (which I swear is your favorite passage, Bevets) is that you condemn yourself with your own choices. You can aspire to emulate Christ, the good, the beautiful, pure things, or you can aspire to darkness, and surround yourself with this.

BTW Bevets ever read Lord of The Rings? Same stuff, different source :)

enoc: /"If you're doing it right, no one will be sure you've done anything at all."

I'm an atheist, but I love that entire episode in general and that final quote in particular.

"The real magic of faith is not getting what you want, but believing you did anyway."

Rev. Ivan Stang

Y'know, I kinda think Bevets isn't really all that fundamentalist. I think he just puts on that character because it's fun. And it IS fun!

Real and eternal hell is knowing the police declilned to do due dilligence in investigating your UFIA by your priest when he sodomized you in the sacristy.
Real and eternal hell is knowing the priest is going to tell you to go home and make the nice spread for the abusive husband you have.
Real and eternal hell is knowing you have a religeon that endorses cannibalism on your street, even if you are not a member.

Tartha De Tear

I often find myself wishing I could be as accepting of ancient writings as authority, it certainly seems the easier and less intellectually taxing route to take. Unfortunately I can never quite get it right, which ultimately ends up being more satisfying.

Here is the link to my favorite Hell site:

http://www.amightywind.com/hell/hellindex.htm

And yes, this person is absolutely serious.

J. D.

George Carlin weighs in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBAPbOWLxc

cut & pasteowned! lost my HTML skillz.

Let's not forget that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth. I refuse to believe anything he says.

Actually, the fact that man arrogantly denies what has been taught to him over the ages is proof enough that the Devil has done his work here.

And no, not everyone will be saved.

Church of the SubGenius - putting the 'fun' back into 'fundamentalism' and the 'laughter' back into 'sectarian slaughter' since 1953...

I believe Bevets is actually an atheist trying to get a reaction from everyone, seeing how he communicates almost exclusively by quotting "authority figures", which isn't really normal.

A bit like the owners of the Flat Earth Society forum (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/) who don't actually believe the earth is flat, they just enjoy debating by pushing an absurd position to its limits (because as you know the best proofs for a round earth are indirect).

That or Bevets is a very damaged individual.

skookum
Actually, the fact that man arrogantly denies what has been taught to him over the ages is proof enough that the Devil has done his work here.

And no, not everyone will be saved.

Another person settling for so little as proof for so much. I envy your intellectual sloth.

I hope he enjoys a warm climate, since that's where he will have all eternity to ponder whether hiding/protecting/funding/excusing/defending child rapists is really what Jesus wanted him to do with a few hundred billion dollars.

gorgor

Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

/it's OK if it's in Japanese

Faith is about not knowing. See, it's like mustard. You put it on your bratwurst with some sauerkraut and maybe have some fries on the side. Suddenly, you have a whole meal. A meal of faith. Tomorrow night, you might have some spaghetti or left overs. The whole point is that food tastes good. Jesus is food. Just read the Bible. See: proof!

For those of you demanding proof of God, you will not get it. The Bible is all the proof required. When you deny the word of God, the Devil has achieved his goal.

intellectual sloth combined with spiritual terrorism is what religeon is.

DOn't look now, Snookie, but when the devil does get behind you it's only so he can fap while watching your heiney.

skookum

Yes, positive proofs for God are many, and they all suck. Good jerb there. However...that leaves YOU with the burden, not us. If you want us to believe you, you have to communicate with US on our terms.

Bah...either a troll or a moron. Either way.

To those that had a problem with my telling the pope to fark off... I really don't care.

You see I used to be the type of person who said respect all beliefs equally and the world will be a better place. I was wrong, because you simply can not hold respect for institutions who actively work to deny the rights of others and define how all should think. They deserve no respect at all, and it is the respect they are given that props them up decade after decade, century after century.

This world is in a state of war, chaos, and turmoil not because of the actions of unbelievers like myself, but rather because of the centuries of religious hatred among people who have largely been born into their belief structures, and allowed religious institutions to have undo control of their lives.

Have all the individual spiritualism you want, but reject any cult, regardless of their size, that tells you to believe blindly in what you are told. That hardly sounds like free will to me.

If the religious want those like me to tone down and stop being as clearly pissed off towards religion as we obviously are, then stay the fark out of our lives and stop trying to impose your views and morals on others. Live a pious life of goodwill towards others and we would have have no reason to hate. Heck we would probably even be friends.

I always take a man who volunteered to swear off sex and not wear pants at his word.

Prometheus1123

Now THERE'S an interesting take on an old story...

Not that I'm a scholar on the bible or anything, but couldn't it be that everyone goes to heaven, but there's 2 ways to get there: forgiveness blah blah blah, or through purification (which, presumably, is painful and undesirable). Either way you get there, just one's easier than the other.

/agnostic
//really doesn't care

phreakinowski

For what it's worth, most theologians would agree with you. However, they are overruled by the bureaucrats and politicians within the religious power structure.

Is the leader of a 15,000 member church really that far away from operating as a mayor?

skookum
For those of you demanding proof of God, you will not get it. The Bible is all the proof required. When you deny the word of God, the Devil has achieved his goal.

Truly your zeal is startling. Your complete acceptance of supernatural forces and omnipotent overlords, all based on an ancient group of stories, is fascinating.

Indeed it is this lack of curiousity which dooms humanity.

/ok THAT was somber
//wanted to type "Truly your zeal is startling...and a little arousing!"

phreakinowski

You should check out the Church of the SubGenius, it's the best of all the ONE TRUE RELIGIONS. ;)

an open letter to the devil

*ahem* Dear Satan,
Thank you for making earth less lame. Good job in particular with the rock and roll. I know as a worthless mortal I can never be as bad ass or diabolical as you, but the other day whilst taking a dump I had an idea. If its your job to usurp god and gather more souls to hell, why not just make hell better than heaven?? I know you already have better parties but whoever does your PR needs to cut it out with the 'eternal torture' stuff, I mean, not all of us are THAT into S&M. Anyhow, I am quite sure its nicer than the competition makes it out to be, perhaps you should take your advertising to another firm, put out a nice brouchure or something. Thanks again for all the cool shiat.

Hail Satan!
Deus Meh

PS. what can i get for a mint condition 1980 Catholic baptized soul?? Never been out of the package!!

Thankfully the pope has now justified my lifetime of wasting my life for the promise of a better life in heaven.

Oh wait nevermind, he's just some guy.