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(Charleston Daily Mail)   West Virginia teachers ask for 6% pay raise, WV Legislature says no because state can't afford it. Then turn around and give themselves a 33% raise   (dailymail.com) divider line 271
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8416 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Mar 2007 at 11:31 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-03-10 10:27:57 AM
We should ask ourselves why our Public School system is so poor, yet our college and university system is fairly excellent.
 
2007-03-10 10:45:06 AM
 
2007-03-10 10:47:38 AM
Lazy bastards get 3 months of vacation a year.

Work those three months, and maybe you'll actually make decent money.
 
2007-03-10 11:00:13 AM
Unshavenhelga: We should ask ourselves why our Public School system is so poor, yet our college and university system is fairly excellent.

My guess would be that the colleges and universities themselves are allowed to set the curriculum and standards.

They don't have a huge bureaucracy bearing down on them.
 
2007-03-10 11:28:14 AM
CtrlAltDelete: A democracy can only sustain itself with an educated population. It's that important.

And it should be that important to make sure we have and maintain excellent teachers. Their union doesn't make that a priority. Basing pay upon merit instead of some notion that they simply deserve more is crucial.

I'm all for paying them more if its deserved. When the union starts to weed out sub-standard teachers I'll be more inclined to agree with pay hikes.
 
2007-03-10 11:34:18 AM
How could anyone find taking care of other people's kids all day was worth so little money?
 
2007-03-10 11:36:42 AM
Q: What's the difference between a teacher and a pizza?

A: A pizza can feed an entire family.
 
2007-03-10 11:38:21 AM
In the United States, education is horribly under funded in comparison with things like say, our military, or corporate welfare. We are creating a nation of idiots.
 
2007-03-10 11:39:56 AM
Is our teachers learning?
 
2007-03-10 11:41:25 AM
How many teachers are there in WV? Ok. Now, how many state legislators in WV? Really? Well, isn't that interesting. So, what is the current salary average for WV teachers? Hmmm. Well, what is the current salary for WV legislators? Wow. Ok, then thanks.
 
2007-03-10 11:44:51 AM
I see a potential sidways 8 flamewar brewing here...not bad for my second greenlight of all time. hahaa...

seriously though...until you've been a teacher and put up with blind parents thinking YOU'RE the reason little johnny failed english instead of the real reason, his ass is lazy and he didn't feel it necessary to pay attention all year let alone do work...or until you've had to put up with 3am phone calls from "cool" kids cussing you out and threatening to cut your throat because you failed their little lazy biatch asses and they have to go to summer school...then, come talk to me.

And, as for this "summers off" shiat...HA! GOOD teachers, teachers worth way more than they'll ever get paid in their career, NEVER take a full summer off. There's summer school....lesson plans for the following year...and so forth and so on.

So, take your anti-teacher/anti-teacher pay raise mentality and blow it out your arse.

As for the Legislators...they work THIS job (a part-time job no less!) for 60 days a year (unless there is a special session as mentioned earlier in the thread)...and, on the low end, their base salary will now be $15,000. Must be nice! Also, if you think that Legislators aren't getting WAY more than that under the table (lobbyists, etc) then YOU'RE a damn fool!

/SUBMITTER(obviously...)
//Son of a teacher, so yes i'm biased
///EVERYTHING I used as an example above of shiat that happens HAS happened to my Mom
 
2007-03-10 11:45:09 AM
Government schools suck anyways.
 
2007-03-10 11:47:12 AM
I still don't get all the teachers here saying "we're under-appreciated". Go say that to your bosss in any other job and you'll get a response such as:

"That's nice. I'm not paying you to be appreciated. Get the job done or find another job".

You do a job. You get paid. Stop the whining.
 
2007-03-10 11:47:38 AM
brazil

I'll partially field your question (how much do teachers make at the best schools?)

Not a ton. I work at a frugal Catholic school now, and make low 30s with an advanced degree and a little previous experience. I applied for (and nearly got) a job at a school that charges $24k a year, and the salary there was more but that just accounted mostly for the cost of living difference between the two places.

Man, I love these teacher bashing threads. Now that I'm in it, I can say that even though summers are off (my next one won't be...), the time you lose during the evenings and weekends partially makes up for that.

/especially if you're a first year
//some teachers do suck
 
2007-03-10 11:47:44 AM
The teachers biatch about this every year here. We were trying to pass a 2.5-3.5 percent raise but they want 6%.

I fear that they will strike again like they did back in the 90's.



/WV
 
2007-03-10 11:48:05 AM
Disgusting.......utterly disgusting


/I am just speechless at how terrible these politicians are. Yet, the public keeps voting for them. It is called a third party!!!
 
2007-03-10 11:51:08 AM
Oh, that's just plain cold right there.
 
2007-03-10 11:51:45 AM
Puddinhed:
"There are two types of teachers. The really good ones can never be paid enough and the bad ones are way too hard to get rid of. My Dad was a teacher and he loved his job, loved teaching High School, and was happiest when he thought he made a difference. Almost no matter where we would go he would meet a former student who would almost always thank my Dad for being one of those teachers who actually gave a damn.

When he passed away in '99 I was shocked when about 150 students showed up for the viewing and funeral, it helped me appreciate just how special a person my father was.

My Dad never had summers off. He would either have a summer job or be back in school taking classes and trying to become a better teacher, or more usually both. We weren't poor, but we certainly weren't rolling in money either."

I got no comment in addition to what you said, I just thought your old man deserved to have that second paragraph QFT.
 
2007-03-10 11:52:27 AM
Teachers spend too much time fighting themselves. They almost universally have unions--led by their worst performing and most insane--where the leadership, only concerned with retaining their cushy jobs, panders to the worst teachers. The worst teachers get their guarantee of pay being tied to experience and 110% job security, in return the bad teachers dominate the union vote and the leadership gets 99% job security.

Do other people see the same situation in their areas? Why don't teachers encourage a distribution of pay based on teacher quality? The dominant seniority system sucks the life out of most young teachers and it just empowers the ones that need a good smackin'
 
2007-03-10 11:52:53 AM
What if the teachers were given back the right to smack the kids, would they be willing to work without a raise, then?
 
2007-03-10 11:52:58 AM
(1) Teachers work way harder than most so-called white collar workers, expected to spend many, many hours outside of "the office" continuing to work reading students' papers, grading tests, developing their lesson plans. My wife and I don't see her best friend from last August until late June every year. Mish works far more hours than she is credited for working.

(2) Many school systems are experimenting with year-round school where the students go for three months and then are off for a month. Tell me how a school teacher is supposed to get a one month job then? And, consider they're probably expected to develop their lesson plans during that "vacation".

(3) How many school teachers are expected to buy the supplies they need for their classroom out of their own pockets? Stuff such as bulletin board materials, their own pens and paper and such, etc.? How many other "white collar" employers expect their employees to pay for the operational expenses of the company?

(4) While secondary teachers in general are paid better than college professors, college professors are at least expected to do research, publishing and participate in groups that further their specialty and bring prestige or recognition to the school...and supplement their income as a result. Teachers usually have no such opportunities.
 
2007-03-10 11:53:18 AM
This is a non-story... But people will fight it out anyways because they are too farking stupid to understand budget allocations for one department are not necessarily tied into the budgeting of another governmental office at all.

Its the Law enforcement/NASA/National Defense (Thanks Queensryche!) argument. Also known as "Accounting for total morons".

This is especially true when you have federal funding allocations for one side of this equation, and not for the other.

Now, (and this is very very true) I have to put on a $50 tuxedo that cost me two tanks of gas, and go with Mistress™ to an all day fundraiser so that we have been working on all week.. for the School she teaches at, so they can afford art supplies for 5 different grade levels. Who have 0$ in their budget for that.

/And I still think this is a bullshiat argument. Its apples and oranges. The funding sources are totally separate.
 
2007-03-10 11:53:21 AM
Merit based pay. Say that in front of your average teacher and see if you don't get an earful. The majority of public school teachers are clock watching, babysitters (and yes my mom was a teacher too subby). They get more than they earn. For the really good teachers it is a shame, but you can't pay all the doorknobs what the good teachers are worth or the state goes broke.
 
2007-03-10 11:53:45 AM
for the most part, U.S. teachers are underappreciated.

the jobs they are doing are full-time, full-year affairs. in the "off time" during summers teachers are preparing their lesson plans, brushing up on skills, attending workshops, etc. and for the importance of what they do in our nation's society, teachers are grossly undercompensated.

there should be a system to reflect proper rewards for proper performance, but what good does it do when you cut funding to a school because of poor grades when that funding is already shockingly low and the grades are low because of factors like poverty and violence, both of which cannot be tackled by the school and its teachers alone?

and for those of you who say money doesn't matter or that teachers can "make do", why is it that private schools, institutions that just happen to be raking in the dough versus public schools, seem to have the highest levels of education?

without promoting education, our nation's kids will be woefully underprepared for the global and technological economy. without changing the status quo, only a few children who are part of elite, wealthy families will be getting a better education. we're already seeing that companies in the U.S. are starved for well-educated workers, having to go overseas to find and sponsor foreign workers to come here. while that's great for immigration, it also means that the pool of U.S. workers with the necessary education and skills is simply not there. that bodes poorly for our children. this country's priorities are all farked up.
 
2007-03-10 11:55:09 AM
Evilnissan: I fear that they will strike again like they did back in the 90's.

March 11, 1990 to be exact...I remember it well. Playing basketball in the parking lot of Clay County H.S. while my Mom and her co-workers rightfully expressed their displeasure.

And, ya know what, when they went back to work my education was not hurt in the slightest.

More power to 'em I say!
 
2007-03-10 11:56:57 AM
nopokerface, while it's not a terrible idea, it's flawed. Basically, if you tie pay to student performance, who teaches the best kids; not only will they do well on the tests, but there are fewer discipline problems? And who will want to teach the special ed group if you know you're going to be earning minimal pay in addition to a lot of the aggravation that comes with it?
 
2007-03-10 11:58:09 AM
In WV, if there is one thing more corrupted than the school system, it's the state government. I have been a victim of both.
 
2007-03-10 11:58:47 AM
nopokerface

FTFA: If passed, the proposal would raise legislators' salaries to $20,000. The commission originally recommended to boost pay to $25,000 by 2009, which would have made West Virginia the highest-paid part-time legislature of its kind in the country.
 
2007-03-10 11:58:58 AM
I appreciate some of the teacher love here.

Here's a comment on a practical issue: people in this thread are often talking about merit-based pay.

I think, while that's not a bad idea (and I'm a free-market kinda guy)... it's REALLY hard to assess teacher merit.

A week ago, I got my second formal evaluation of the year. My department chair came into my room, watched me for a period, and wrote up a review. Other than listening to parent complaints, how do you get any REAL idea how good I am by watching me for an hour?

It can't go based on student performance... then it would matter whether you teach honors classes or not, or how much you curve tests.

And it can't go based on parent complaints... the dissatisfied ones are often the only ones that speak up, and their complaints aren't always educationally valid.
 
2007-03-10 11:59:40 AM
http://www.nea.org/edstats/images/06rankings.pdf

page 92

Not making any point, really, just FYI.

I work in making education policy, so I am getting a kick out of these replies... always wanted to say that.
 
2007-03-10 12:00:43 PM
Villain-

I agree that's a difficulty. But, that is not the only aspect of teacher merit, and even that is not insurmountable. state wide criteria could be established for the types of students the teacher teaches. But, anyway, what I find funny is, just the idea of being paid based on how well they do their job instead of just based on how long they have managed to squat in it, makes their head asplode.
 
2007-03-10 12:01:16 PM
If teachers are anything like the one I saw on 1 VS 100 last night are any indication, we are in deep doo doo.

The question was something to the effect of "Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997 by ____________."

The choices were: The Americans, The Japanese, The British.

She used two "helps"...and still thought it might have been the Japanese.

I comforted myself with the realization that she couldn't do too much damage as she was a fifth grade teacher.

I really hate that show.

Some teachers are overpaid...some are underpaid...hmmm is there some sort of system we could institute that would pay teachers based on performance? You know...good teachers paid well...bad teachers paid enough to want to find another proffession?
 
2007-03-10 12:02:19 PM
Because the stupid kids are so much more pleasant to be around than the articulate and educated variety.
 
2007-03-10 12:02:54 PM
Whilie I dont agree with it, I should note there are way more teachers than members of the WV legislature. The math almost evens out, right?

/just woke up
//really hung over
///not subby
 
2007-03-10 12:05:55 PM
Okay.

Those teachers are probably making much more than 15k.

There are almost certainly fewer legislators than teachers.

This bill makes perfect sense to me.
 
2007-03-10 12:06:03 PM
I taught college-level English in California from January 2003 to July 2005; I have been teaching college-level English in Tennessee since August of 2005. Considering what the public high school teachers were turing out as a product that entire time, they should not get a raise. I have students who cannot write a sentence, conjugate a verb, write a thesis, incoporate research into an essay, create a decent works cited page, and manage subject-verb agreement.

I know that parents are supposed to be involved in their children's education, and they are. At least twice a semester I get a note from a student's mommy or daddy explaining to me why Susy or Sam could not make it to class. These students are adults, at least chronologically. So the parents are involved, apparently as excuse makers.

My son in is preschool. My husband and I talk to his teachers everyday when we drop him off. We listen to what they tell us, follow-up with lessons and practice at home; and if he gets in trouble there, he is in trouble at home. They do not do parent-teacher confrences at this level, but once they do, my husband and I will both attend. Teaching college does not qualify me to tell me how K-12 teachers should do their job. However, if my students constantly left my classes lacking the skills I mentioned above, I would be fired.

My criticisms only apply to the classes I have taught in CA and TN, and only to the high schools that feed in to the colleges I taught/now teach for. However, based on the number of complaints I have read here about the quality of the students coming into college, the problem is not just in those places.

I DO work summers. I teach summer school every summer, as I think that it is part of my job to do so. I miss time with my son and with my husband, of course. But I have a job to do.

/am taking this summer off to take care of a newborn baby; she will be born on or around May 8
//flame on
 
2007-03-10 12:06:13 PM
Puddinhed

"We speak your name.."

Absolutely right. Education is the most important responsibility anyone can have. Without education, meekychuppet wouldn't be able to give us his glib, dismissive, and hypocritical comments

(5th paragraph down)
 
2007-03-10 12:08:17 PM
What frustrates me the most about these arguments every time they come up is that most of the people that say "if teachers don't like the pay they should get another job" are the same ones that say "our public education system sucks." As a teacher, I am done complaining about my pay (apparently when other people biatch about money it is okay, but when I do it I am just being greedy) for my sake. However, I hope people realize that, if we don't raise teacher pay we will not have the best and most qualified people teaching. If you want the best education possible for our children, you have to be willing to pay for the best teachers. If you don't want to spend the money, be willing to accept that our kids will be taught by less qualified teachers.
 
2007-03-10 12:08:35 PM
Another one of those anecdotal posts as opposed to the statistic based ones....

I live in Southern California. My mom is retired elementary school teacher. She worked 36 years at the same inner-city school in Maywood, California. My step-dad is a retired high school teacher. He had 36 years at the same high school in West Los Angeles. My brother is starting his 10th year as an elementary school teacher at 24th St. School in East LA. My brother-in-law is starting his 9th year as a math teacher at a middle school in Glendale, CA. His parents are both retired educators.

At the time my mom retired (last year), after 36 years, with a Masters of Education - she was paid a district maximum of about $53,000. She also worked at a year-round school. Still got the equivalent of a "Summer" off, but it was spread throughout the year. She also spent about $4000 of her own money each year on basic supplies for the kids in her class and candy/treats for Halloween, Valentine's Day, Christmas, etc. Similar details apply to the other educators in my family with the numbers adjusted accordingly for "time served (worked)" and other variables. A 5th year administrator at LAUSD can make more than any teacher ever could.

I am an entrepreneur who quit college as a junior. After 7 years at my company - I make double what my mom did at her best and my other benefits crush hers. And even with my income, living in Southern California means you will never see Robin Leach talking about me on his show. Considering the median price for a home in my city is $505,000 - what am I going to buy? Unless you want to live extremely far away and commute in or live in a ridiculously unsafe neighborhood - no educator is ever going to be in a position to buy a home.

Is that unique to educators? Absolutely not. Lots of professions out there strike me as under-paid and under-appreciated. However, I think the jobs teachers are paid to perform and the jobs that many parents expect teachers to do beyond educating them (play the counselor, play the discipliner, play the protector) - gives them a unique position in the "we are under-paid" arena.

Just my two pennies.....
 
2007-03-10 12:09:40 PM
AuntNotAnt: Okay.

Those teachers are probably making much more than 15k.

There are almost certainly fewer legislators than teachers.

This bill makes perfect sense to me.


let me caplock this so maybe you'll understand:
WEST VIRGINIA LEGISLATORS WORK 60 DAYS A YEAR!

That's $15K for a part time job...Simple Math tells us that translates to $60,000 if it were a full time year round job.

Put it in that perspective,re-evaluate, then get back to me.
 
2007-03-10 12:10:58 PM
fotomat- "FTFA: If passed, the proposal would raise legislators' salaries to $20,000. The commission originally recommended to boost pay to $25,000 by 2009, which would have made West Virginia the highest-paid part-time legislature of its kind in the country."

Man, is that a lot of qualifiers or is it just me? How many other part-time legislators of it's kind are there? How much do those states value their legislators? Do they want to attract the best and brightest legislators they can, or just whoever can use an extra 12k a year. That quote is specious at best, meaningless at worst.
 
2007-03-10 12:12:08 PM
No wonder kids don't respect teachers. Look at what their parents have to say about them on this board.

If a kid is constantly hearing "teachers are whiners and worthless," the kid will start to believe it. I'm damn sure that most of these critics of teachers echo the same sentiment to their children.

And I love the fact that people think it's possible to raise a family, buy a house, etc. on $25,000 per year. "Get a different job" they'll say.

Why should they have to? Teaching was their chosen field, and they earned the four-to-six year degree to do it. Why shouldn't they be adequately compensated for it?
 
2007-03-10 12:12:26 PM
How come when I biatch about having to work late or weekends for my job without overtime pay, I get told "man up nancy" "well you chose to work there" "go find another job if you dont like it" "yawn, the 40 hour work week went obsolete years ago, stop being lazy". When teachers do it though, anyone criticizing them is thrown to the wolves, because they're sacred and untouchable.
 
2007-03-10 12:12:40 PM
Desmo

Puddinhed

"We speak your name.."

Absolutely right. Education is the most important responsibility anyone can have. Without education, meekychuppet wouldn't be able to give us his glib, dismissive, and hypocritical comments

(5th paragraph down)


You fail at smartass 101. My very Boobies in this thread makes it clear that I think teachers are under-appreciated. Teachers, like any other profession complain about how hard their job is. I would say the same to military personnel complaining about war or civil servants moaning about bureaucracy. Every job has it's pitfalls and teaching is no different. Do not infer from my criticisms that I hate teachers or believe that they shouldn't be better renumerated. I find it hard to believe that a pay rise will stop them whining. If the job gets you down that much then get another one.
 
2007-03-10 12:15:04 PM
So where is the outrage that there is no brass balls icon to tag stories with?
 
2007-03-10 12:15:38 PM
Blade2567: I comforted myself with the realization that she couldn't do too much damage as she was a fifth grade teacher.

You could not be more wrong in your comfort then.

Thats when the concept of "How to learn" (on a personal level) is over... and "This is what you need to know" begins.

Grammar rules, sentence diagram, multiplication tables, science begins to split into biology realms.

If there was ONE grade I could do over again it would be 5th.

I was sick a LOT that year...and I fell behind in math. (I learned through adult tutoring that 5th grade was where the problem started, and my bad math skills foundation was never "fixed".) Straight A's in everything else and d or f's in math destroyed my dream of meteorology in high school.

My life would probably be totally different if I had a teacher who had the time (or the resources) to help me catch up in the last months of my 5th grade year.

But its okay, I like my life. I just could be much more than I am, but I am stuck where I am playing catch up .. (got kids, bills, cant go to college now.. I work 11 hours a day just to keep the lights on and get my teeth fixed) instead of ever going to college because it took me 12 years to get around to getting the problem fixed, because I was ASHAMED of my poor math skills when I was so advanced in every other testing bracket.

/Wow... that was cathartic.
//How much do I owe you for this session doc?
 
2007-03-10 12:15:54 PM
YouWinAgainGravity

"man up nancy" "well you chose to work there" "go find another job if you dont like it" "yawn, the 40 hour work week went obsolete years ago, stop being lazy"

I guess that would depend on where you work. In most places teachers are viewed as professionals.
 
2007-03-10 12:17:14 PM
Dr. Fever-WEST VIRGINIA LEGISLATORS WORK 60 DAYS A YEAR!

I, for one heard you the first time, but just as has been pointed out by others in the thread about teachers not really having the summer off because there is more to teaching than just showing up for class, is it possible that there is more to governing a state than just showing up for formal sessions? Do they ever get phone calls from constituents? Might they spend some time keeping up with the issues that effect the areas they represent. Is it possible that the time demands outside the 60 days they are in session are even far greater than the 60 official days they spend in Charleston?
 
2007-03-10 12:17:32 PM
YouWinAgainGravity: How come when I biatch about having to work late or weekends for my job without overtime pay, I get told "man up nancy" "well you chose to work there" "go find another job if you dont like it" "yawn, the 40 hour work week went obsolete years ago, stop being lazy". When teachers do it though, anyone criticizing them is thrown to the wolves, because they're sacred and untouchable.

because, and maybe i'm reaching a little bit here, but if it weren't for teachers your wouldn't have the capacity to make such amazing analogies, let alone use a computer or I dare say have the capacity to do your no weekends off no overtime job.

Fact is, if it weren't for teachers our already stupid low collective IQ would be even worse.

So, yeah, you'll have to forgive us that find teachers necessary to be a little punchy when people start biatching about them being lazy/whiney/etc about being underpaid and under appreciated.
 
2007-03-10 12:18:12 PM
And before anyone pops a vein creating a blistering reply to my previous post, I don't think less of or disrespect teachers. But I also don't think that just because someone is a teacher that means they're a noble self-sacrificing wonderful human being "thinking of the children". There are good teachers that actually care about their job, and worthless burnouts just like at any profession. They should be taken just as seriously and treated the same as anybody who feels they are underpaid for the work they do.
 
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