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(Charleston Daily Mail)   West Virginia teachers ask for 6% pay raise, WV Legislature says no because state can't afford it. Then turn around and give themselves a 33% raise   (dailymail.com) divider line 271
    More: Asinine  
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8416 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Mar 2007 at 11:31 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-03-10 01:55:47 PM  
Is their childrun lerning?
 
2007-03-10 01:58:10 PM  
priestrape
Because they are given that option when they start - why would I make that up?

Apparently, that's not the case everywhere, but it is with the people I know in teaching.


I was actually asking that of nopokerface and included his quote of you. He said it wasn't the case everywhere, but I don't know how he would know unless he was privy to teaching pay schedules AND whether they were 9 months stretched to 12 or not.
 
2007-03-10 01:59:05 PM  
Well, don't I have egg on my face
 
2007-03-10 01:59:10 PM  
Dr Fever: moof: That's illogical.
hahaha...i'm just a button pusher/producer. So, i'm not guilty of the Making Shiat Up charges ;)


No, seriously. You said you work "in" talk radio, but there's no way you'd fit in the receiver set.
 
2007-03-10 02:00:55 PM  
Here's some numbers, don't let them get in the way of what you have assured yourself is the truth. (I had to re-type most of this cos it copy-pasted strange - must be a stupid font in the PDF... so 'scuse any typos). And yes, KY, with an average of 39k, was where I was making $21k the first year.



Between 1994 and 2004, the average experience of teachers declined from 15.5 years to 14.8 years... the value of a year of experience is $1006

Between 2002-03 and 2003-04, the beginning teacher salary rose from $31351 to $31704

In 2004, the average job offer made to college graduates who were not education majors was $40,472, or $8768 more than the beginning teacher salary.

Connecticut reported the largest average salary at 56,516 - 21 percent above the national average. South Dakota reported the lowest average salary."

In 1993-94, teacher salaries were 36 percent higher than average annual earnings in the private sector...2003-04 teacher salaries were 19 percent higher than average annual earnings.
* note that includes minimum wage workers too

The calculation of the national average is done by weighting the average salary in each state by the number of teachers in the state. thus, California's 303,968 teachers have more impact in the calculation than Wyoming's 6,503.

Table II-1: Average Teacher Salary in 2003-04, State Rankings
2003-04 2003-04
Rank | State | Average Salary | FTE Teachers | Percent of U.S. Average
1 Connecticut $56,516 42,003 121.3%
2 California 56,444 a. 303,968 121.1%
3 New York 55,181 b. 219,335 118.4%
4 Rhode Island 54,809 c. 10,042 117.6%
5 Michigan 54,474 c. 78,734 d. 116.9%
6 Illinois 53,820 a.e. 129,964 115.5%
7 New Jersey 53,663 107,643 115.2%
8 Massachusetts 53,274 73,441 114.3%
9 Pennsylvania 52,640 119,889 113.0%
10 Alaska 51,136 7,858 109.7%
11 Delaware 51,122 6,722 109.7%
12 Maryland 50,303 73,049 108.0%
13 Oregon 47,829 26,731 102.6%
14 Ohio 47,791 114,943 102.6%
15 Georgia 45,848 103,106 98.4%
16 Indiana 45,791 59,833 98.3%
17 Hawaii 45,456 a.f. 12,954 97.6%
18 Washington 45,437 52,892 97.5%
19 Minnesota 45,010 a. 52,311 96.6%
20 Virginia 43,936 95,365 94.3%
21 Colorado 43,318 44,904 93.0%
22 Nevada 43,211 20,015 92.7%
23 North Carolina 43,211 a. 87,947 92.7%
24 Vermont 43,009 a. 8,693 92.3%
25 New Hampshire 42,689 15,110 91.6%
26 Arizona 42,324 c. 47,396 90.8%
27 Wisconsin 41,687 59,405 89.5%
28 South Carolina 41,162 45,830 88.3%
29 Florida 40,598 165,607 87.1%
30 Texas 40,476 289,481 86.9%
31 Tennessee 40,318 a. 58,577 86.5%
32 Idaho 40,111 16,374 86.1%
33 Maine 39,864 17,153 85.6%
34 Kentucky 39,831 41,053 85.5%
35 Nebraska 39,635 20,784 85.1%
36 Wyoming 39,537 6,503 84.8%
37 Arkansas 39,226 a. 31,662 84.2%
38 Utah 38,976 21,660 83.6%
39 Kansas 38,622 35,430 82.9%
40 West Virginia 38,496 20,287 82.6%
41 New Mexico 38,469 21,224 82.6%
42 Iowa 38,381 34,754 82.4%
43 Alabama 38,282 45,920 82.2%
44 Missouri 38,247 65,003 82.1%
45 Montana 37,184 10,330 79.8%
46 Louisiana 37,123 50,495 79.7%
47 Mississippi 36,217 31,611 77.7%
48 North Dakota 35,411 8,720 76.0%
49 Oklahoma 35,061 e.f. 39,218 75.2%
50 South Dakota 33,236 9,031 71.3%
U.S. Average 2003-04 $46,597
U.S. Average 2002-03 $45,578
Change in Current Dollars $1,019
Percent Change 2.2%
American Samoa $17,000 1,020
Guam 34,326 a.f. 2,093
District of Columbia 62,909 5,704
Puerto Rico 24,700 n/a
Virgin Islands n/a n/a

a. includes extra-duty pay;
b. median;
c. AFT estimate;
d. 2002-03 data;
e. includes employer pick-up of employee pension contributions where applicable;
f. includes fringe benefits such as healthcare where applicable.

Source: American Federation of Teachers, annual survey of state departments of
education.
 
2007-03-10 02:02:18 PM  
Well, don't I have egg on my face
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way.


/where does the article say six percent?
 
2007-03-10 02:04:28 PM  
moof: No, seriously. You said you work "in" talk radio, but there's no way you'd fit in the receiver set.
I just push buttons and listen for commerical cues, occasionally playing some appropriate audio.

that doesn't mean I buy into the shiat...it's my job. that's it.
 
2007-03-10 02:07:57 PM  
stebain: /where does the article say six percent?

they originally asked for 6%...to quote myself from earlier:

In short; while the article didn't mention that side of it specifically the "can't afford it" excuse was, in fact, the excuse used by the legislature. I didn't just pull it out of my arse for shiats and giggles.


Same thing...only use "asked for 6%" instead of "'can't afford it' excuse"
 
2007-03-10 02:11:09 PM  
Rovian: It worked so well at Walter Reed. You want to compound the problem in the education system now?

Walter Reed is an example of government health care not private.
 
2007-03-10 02:11:49 PM  
I love the people that say teachers are bad and don't deserve more pay...

Did they ever think that maybe the really good teachers left teaching because the pay and conditions are so awful?
 
2007-03-10 02:18:06 PM  
I've had some fantastic teachers and I've had a greater number of very bad teachers. The great teachers would simply be able to stand in front of the class and give exciting lectures to an eagerly listening class. These teachers knew how to make lessons fun and interesting. They also knew how to teach in a way that the students could comprehend the materials. The bad teachers were the sort that would merely read out of a book or off of a powerpoint and assign busy work. Nothing annoyed me more than having to do work for the sake of work. Even if we knew the material we were still stuck doing ridiculous things like 100 math problems a night. Also, don't forget that the useless shiats that tend to fall into the position of 'gym teacher' get paid the same as every other teacher. These people come in later than anyone else and leave sooner than anyone else (even the students). I've had a few great gym teachers, but the rest were bullies who would do nothing but play games (and cheat) and hit on the teen girls.

Government positions are not always filled based on merit (and are usually not). Positions are not kept based on merit. With a powerful union, it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher for poor performance. They need to screw up big time to get fired. Throwing more money at teachers will not improve this because we'll be stuck with crappy teachers that are highly paid. Will it increase the pool of qualified applicants? Certainly. Will that overcome the problems with government employment practices? No.

On the topic of pay: I've heard some unbelievably stupid arguments for increased pay from teachers. One claimed that each student that is taught should be considered a client, and that he should get paid more (at least minimum wage) for each client that he teaches. The sheer stupidity of his reasoning demonstrates the capacity of many of our teachers. I completely agree with meekychuppet's initial sentiment.

Further on the topic of pay: My mom started out as a teacher with a bachelor's. My father started out as a firefighter with no college degree (at less pay than my mother). They vacationed in the summer. They had two children. They both went to college and both obtained a master's. They saved up enough money to send both their children to private college and to retire very comfortably. They have not had any sort of debt since paying their mortgage off years ago. Perhaps teachers are making much less than they did 30 years ago. Or perhaps teachers also need lessons in money management. My parents have lived very comfortably with their government jobs, despite keeping no debt and putting away large amounts of money for later.
 
2007-03-10 02:19:29 PM  
Uncle Pim

So you're cool with us placing strict performance criteria on the current teachers while upping their salary? After all, there's likely to be a lot of under-performers in the current group that are taking up positions we want for the re-lured good teachers.

/Teachers unions are most definitely NOT cool with that
 
2007-03-10 02:25:37 PM  
Snowflake Tubbybottom: Walter Reed is an example of government health care not private.

Incorrect.

The health care at Walter Reed is very good.

The problem that's been in the news at Walter Reed occurs once the troops are discharged from the hospital and put into military medical hold units.

It's a military command problem.

Not a health care problem.
 
2007-03-10 02:26:14 PM  
Snowflake Tubbybottom: Walter Reed is an example of government health care not private.

Actually military healthcare, which is a thing unto itself, and has been for ages.

bigforearms: So you're cool with us placing strict performance criteria on the current teachers while upping their salary?

got a way to do that without standardized tests?
 
2007-03-10 02:27:46 PM  
Same thing...only use "asked for 6%" instead of "'can't afford it' excuse"

dude, if the article doesn't say what you want it to say, at least link another article in the thread that does.
 
2007-03-10 02:28:36 PM  
stebain: dude, if the article doesn't say what you want it to say, at least link another article in the thread that does.
that would require paying to access the archives...and, uh, fark that!
 
2007-03-10 02:28:58 PM  
SchlingFo: The problem that's been in the news at Walter Reed occurs once the troops are discharged from the hospital and put into military medical hold units

And it's been in the nwes before owing to facilities that are in really bad shape. But that's a funding issue not an issue of how good the care of patients is.
 
2007-03-10 02:31:50 PM  
that would require paying to access the archives...and, uh, fark that!
I can dig that!

/I don't mean "digg" either.
 
2007-03-10 02:33:16 PM  
WhyteRaven74: And it's been in the nwes before owing to facilities that are in really bad shape. But that's a funding issue not an issue of how good the care of patients is.

That's part of it.

Basic flow is this:

1)Get injured
2)Sent from Iraq/Afghanistan via Germany to Walter Reed
3)Get good medical care
4)Get discharged from hospital
5)Get assigned to medical hold unit with lousy chain of command, lousy living conditions, and no support for navigating bureaucracy.
 
2007-03-10 02:50:57 PM  
I know one way to help decide merit pay. Make the teachers themselves take standardized tests every year. When I was growing up, I had some good teachers and some teachers who were so painfully stupid they could barely spell. Of course, you can't get rid of those ones.

Stupid unions.
 
2007-03-10 02:52:54 PM  
SchlingFo: Get assigned to medical hold unit with lousy chain of command, lousy living conditions, and no support for navigating bureaucracy.

Major point that is often also overlooked, many of those not getting help with the paperwork are traumatic brain injury cases.

"You've had half your brain blown off? You need fill out 600+ forms (correctly) which will dictate the course of your medical care for the rest of your life. Deadline is five minutes ago."
 
2007-03-10 02:53:42 PM  
wittybanter: I know one way to help decide merit pay. Make the teachers themselves take standardized tests every year. When I was growing up, I had some good teachers and some teachers who were so painfully stupid they could barely spell. Of course, you can't get rid of those ones.

i'll bet a million dollars the majority of them "taught" in the history department and were on the football coaching staff...
amirite???
 
2007-03-10 02:59:40 PM  
Honestly, I don't feel sorry for the teachers. And, $20K for the state legislators really doesn't seem that unreasonable.
 
2007-03-10 03:10:55 PM  
SchlingFo: My guess would be that the colleges and universities themselves are allowed to set the curriculum and standards.

They don't have a huge bureaucracy bearing down on them.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Excellent! The funniest thing I've read all week.
 
2007-03-10 03:11:34 PM  
WHY SHOULD TEACHERS GET MORE MONEY IF STUDENTS ARE NOT DOING BETTER THAN THEIR COUNTERPARTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES!!!! AMERICAN KIDS ARE GETTING DUMBER EVERY YEAR, AND THESE GREEDY BASTARDS WANT MORE MONEY FOR DOING LESS WORK???? FARK'EM. WE NEED A PAY FOR PERFORMANCE SYSTEM. MOST TEACHERS DO NOT DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY AND SHOULDN'T BE EARNING THE SAME PAY AS THOSE THAT DO THEIR JOB WELL.
 
2007-03-10 03:13:59 PM  
stebain-

My mom taught for 31 years in Ohio. I grew up around the teachers here. Being around them, there was nothing I didn't hear, especially how they were paid.

/sorry for the delay
//I was away from the computer
///beating my kids so that they will behave in school
 
2007-03-10 03:15:07 PM  
Umm, raising the lawmakers' pay up to $20,000 is hardly making anyone rich. Hell, most teachers are making more than $20,000 a year.

Unless you would like these people to craft your legislation during their lunch hour at one of their other two jobs. I'm sure a lot would get done then.
 
2007-03-10 03:29:46 PM  
Nabb1: That those charged with educating the nations children - FOR FREE - should have to...

Do you mean you think that no one pays for the schooling? If that were the case, how would the teachers get paid? Public education is not free, it is paid for by taxpayers. This is precisely why people (taxpayers) pay careful attention to teacher salaries.
The problem teachers have is that college educated people have exposure to those majoring in education, very likely having gone to the same classes. Virtually everyone has exposure to k-12 teachers. In both cases the assessment is that many teachers are not, in fact, the "cream of the crop". Pointing to high levels of advanced degrees does little to help since the natural response is that these degrees are usually in education, not math or chemistry or engineering or whatever.
I agree that teachers should be highly qualified, and paid for competence. Competence is unfortunately not universal, and in fact is not especially prevalent. Exactly same can be said for other fields, but people seem to have an easier time with performance evaluations that result in promotions and raises or demotions and firings. Until teachers can be evaluated and paid based on performance, the good teachers (and there are plenty of them) have to take the flack that comes from the impressions created by so many average to poor teachers.
 
2007-03-10 03:34:28 PM  
I had some good teachers and some teachers who were so painfully stupid they could barely spell.

I had a teacher once..History I think was the subject...that wore a broken watch. I asked her why, she said that she kept forgetting to repair it. 3 years in school and she never fixed it.
 
2007-03-10 03:42:14 PM  
As a product of the West Virginia school system, I can honestly say that (most) of the teachers I dealt with at every level of my education were deserving of more money than they were receiving. West Virginia legislators... not quite as much.
 
2007-03-10 03:43:42 PM  
I get half a dozen recruitment e-mails a week although I've never taught beyond the 12 weeks of UNPAID student teaching required to get the credential. Every state seemingly wants an inexperienced teacher, as long as they'll work for cheap. Burnout rates are incredibly high - no wonder.

50k would be a good starting minimum for most positions, but as long as the profession is female-dominated, the job will be undervalued. Next to parenting, teaching is still the most important and influential profession an individual can hold.
 
2007-03-10 03:44:14 PM  
How much money does the average legislator in WV spend to get elected, I wonder?
Just guessing, but I would say it far exceeds $15 K.

But $15 K for 60 days work?
And most, if not all of them are not there for the entire 60 days seems like not such a good deal for WV taxpayers to me.

And they didn't mention the healthcare benefits, retirement, and other perks of the job.
 
2007-03-10 03:58:02 PM  
Aufdie

I scrolled down because I was too anxious to get my two cents in to read the rest of the posts, but...

Here's the difference for you, straight from the West Virginia school system to your ears/eyes:

There - a place or location. "The book is there."
They're - A contraction of "They" and "Are" "They're going to be here at four."
Their - A possessive pronoun. "It's their party, they can cry if they want to."

/I think those punctuation marks go on the outside of the quotes, but I'm too lazy to fix it.
//West Virginia, home of the first state-wide grading scale
///And the six point, not the bullshiat 10 point wussy scale other states use.
 
2007-03-10 03:58:22 PM  
Here's the deal, some teachers deserve a raise, some don't. This is where teachers unions fail, they've actually hurt their best workers by forcing them to prop up the worst workers.

The one phrase a lot of teachers hate to hear is merit based pay because then all of a sudden their thankless, grueling job actually has some accountability to it.

I don't dispute that there are some great teachers out there that do an incredible job and put their lives into their students, however my experience with public schools is that there are also a lot of people just "hiding out" because you get a decent pay raise every so often, and after a few years they literally can't fire you unless you really fark up.

Also comparing starting salary to what a tenured teacher makes in take home is retarded, add in the excellent benefit packages most of these jobs offer and the pay doesn't seem so bad.

As for it being more than a 9-5 job, it's a salary job everyone else on salary faces the same thing. You're on salary because it would cost more to pay you hourly...some of my friends who went into business thought 36k/ year was great for salary until they realized that hourly it was shiat.
 
2007-03-10 04:00:09 PM  
RDixon: But $15 K for 60 days work?

Hey, they have to prepare! And, um, do grading and stuff, or something.. Keep up with the curriculum..
 
2007-03-10 04:06:50 PM  
snarfangel

Again, fair enough. I won't claim that the assessments I give are just as valid for someone else's students as they would be for mine. I just have my experience to go on there.

And yes, I like to complain about big, hard-to-solve problems. I'll grant you that, too.

However, as standardized tests get more politicized (subject to funding in NCLB, etc.), they become more and more invalid. This would be true if they were used for merit pay too.

I'm not against the idea, I just don't see what the best way is to execute it.
 
2007-03-10 04:23:53 PM  
Elvis_Pelt: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Excellent! The funniest thing I've read all week.

Last I checked, colleges set their own curriculum. There aren't any state-mandated standardized testing that college students pretty much spend all their time preparing for. Accordingly, colleges can teach students to understand the concepts rather than just memorize how to do certain things.

If you disagree, then illustrate why rather than just laughing.
 
2007-03-10 04:24:24 PM  
Why are schools the only thing which people don't see basic market laws applying to?
If you want better teachers, offer more incentives to attract qualified people.
If you're OK with average teaching, offer average wages.

It's pretty simple, folks.
 
2007-03-10 04:30:50 PM  
Gortex: If you want better teachers, offer more incentives to attract qualified people.
If you're OK with average teaching, offer average wages.

It's pretty simple, folks.


You can have the greatest teachers in the world, but when they're required to teach in a farked up manner by law, the kids aren't going to learn.

We already spend more on education than many other countries that are killing us in terms of public education.

More money to attract better teachers will not solve the problem.
 
2007-03-10 04:57:43 PM  
Gaboo: That aint a whole hell of a lot of money. Interesting that the article doesn't mention the average salaries of the biatching teachers, who I assume get at least the low to mid 20's- with the entire summer off.
---------------------------------

itsdan: When I was in highschool we got a few teachers pissed at us during their negotiations, because we discovered all their statistics that they quoted to newspapers and such weren't adjusted for the fact that they got so much time off. Somehow they felt entitled to earn a year's salary in 9 months.
--------------------------------
And what do you think they do over the summer? play tiddly winks? Nope... most of them have to continue going to school themselves- at their own expense, usually, to maintain their teaching licenses. And during the school year, their day does NOT begin and end with the school bells. They generally spend at least 10 or 15 hours a week grading and planning lessons. Then there's parent- teacher conferences, and often a few hours of continuing education in between. Yes, they only actually work at the school for 9 moths out of the year. But that's not the only work they're doing.
------------------------------------------
SchlingFo: You can have the greatest teachers in the world, but when they're required to teach in a farked up manner by law, the kids aren't going to learn.

We already spend more on education than many other countries that are killing us in terms of public education.

More money to attract better teachers will not solve the problem.

---------------------
In almost every other country in the world, teaching is a good- paying, respectable and respected profession. In the United States, it pays a pittance. (for a college degree, and usually an advanced degree or 2) And people often ridicule the profession with stupid assed sayings like "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach" and the like. Having quality teachers would, in fact, make a big difference. But in order to have quality teachers, you need to pay them a reasonable salary.
 
2007-03-10 04:59:20 PM  
Gortex: Why are schools the only thing which people don't see basic market laws applying to?
If you want better teachers, offer more incentives to attract qualified people.
If you're OK with average teaching, offer average wages.


Everyone's industry is somehow "different" and exempt from market rules. Generally, it's because it is "essential" or some such reason.

Government jobs are always lower in pay compared to their private counterparts. There's no surprises on that one.

That market system WILL work with this one. We already use a variant of the voucher system via the G.I. bill, and it works extremely well. I like government funding of education, I'm not a fan of government MANAGED education.
 
2007-03-10 05:02:57 PM  
Greek: Having quality teachers would, in fact, make a big difference. But in order to have quality teachers, you need to pay them a reasonable salary.

No, it won't.

Our public education system is set up to have kids memorize how to do everything and repeat it back for standardized tests. That doesn't require quality teachers.

It simply requires that the teacher be able to write the examples on the board and provide enough examples to cover various possible scenarios found on the standardized tests.

Even if we had the greatest teachers in the world who are able to explain in terms anyone can understand, the concepts behind the material, they aren't allowed to.

They are required to teach the students how to pass the standardized tests. After all that, they don't have the time to teach the why and how.
 
2007-03-10 05:56:07 PM  
Wait, in Vest Virginia the state government dictates teachers salaries?

That certainly isn't true of Pennsylvania, and I doubt that's true in most other states. We have school boards that determine teacher salaries.
 
2007-03-10 05:59:14 PM  
2007-03-10 05:02:57 PM SchlingFo

Our public education system is set up to have kids memorize how to do everything and repeat it back for standardized tests. That doesn't require quality teachers.

Sadly, that is true, in certain circumstances. Why? Because of NCLB.

However, that isn't true in "skilled based" classes. In Language Arts, you have to learn how to write an essay. There isn't any "memorize and repeat" about learning to write an essay. Say is true, at some level, for reading. Math and science is a different story. Both math and science obviously have theories and skills behind them, but you can teach kids to memorize facts and spit it back out on a test.
 
2007-03-10 06:18:23 PM  
mmagdalene: 50k would be a good starting minimum for most positions, but as long as the profession is female-dominated, the job will be undervalued.

I think most folks just coming out of college would like 50k also, but most of them won't get it either. Including the ones that have much more difficult curriculums than education.
 
2007-03-10 07:05:52 PM  
West Virginia teachers ask for 6% pay raise, WV Legislature says no because state can't afford it. Then turn around and give themselves a 33% raise

...of course, 'cuz there are 200,000 West Virginia state legislators.

/Not defending
//Just combatting asshattery.
 
2007-03-10 07:13:34 PM  
If only the politicians controlled our healthcare as well.
 
2007-03-10 07:14:33 PM  
My father is a teacher in WV, so I'm really getting a kick out of some of these replies...Seriously though, he is, and if you knew what he has to put up with for his salary you would see why they deserve every raise they ever get. Being a teacher is not just about the time in the classroom. You have to make lesson plans, grade papers, etc. Most of this is done at home, after you've already worked your 8 hour day. Do you get paid overtime? Nope.

He recently was promoted into a dean of students position, basically an assistant principal. In addition to the mountainous amount of paperwork he has to do for this job, he has to be a representative of the school in the community. This means that after he works his 8 hours, with another 1-2 of paperwork afterwards, he is required to attend school functions. Nothing like going to work at 7 AM, getting home at 10 PM, and getting paid like you worked 8.

Teachers are not just educators. For their meager salary, they are expected to be teachers, guidance counselors, baby sitters, and increasingly, law enforcement. Do you know when a bomb threat is called in at a public school in WV, the police do not have to go into the building? Guess who ends up having to wander around inside? If you guessed teachers, you win the prize.

We expect them to do all of this for next to nothing. Then, when someone's brat kid gets hurt or fellated during the 10 seconds the teacher isn't watching them, the first ones we blame are the teachers. If you can't see why these people deserve a raise, you are not paying attention.
 
2007-03-10 07:14:44 PM  
wydok: Say is true, at some level, for reading.

"is true, at some level, for reading."
 
2007-03-10 07:21:21 PM  
TwistedIvory: Once you've been a teacher, get back to me.

Once you've paid 40%+ taxes, get back to me.
 
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