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(Some Guy)   Firefighters union invites all serious candidates from both political parties to Presidential forum - except one: Rudy Giuliani   (firefightingnews.com) divider line 49
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476 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Mar 2007 at 10:01 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-03-08 08:03:10 PM
This letter is intended to make all of our members aware of the egregious acts Mayor Giuliani committed against our members, our fallen on 9/11, and our New York City union officers following that horrific day.

This could turn into something like "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" except that it's not something completely made up.
 
2007-03-08 08:04:47 PM
Corvus - This could turn into something like "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" except that it's not something completely made up.

Indeed. It's gonna be very interesting to see how Rudy & his supporters respond to this.
 
2007-03-08 08:10:04 PM
Meh. Any moron can play the hero in the middle of a disaster. I care about actaul policies, an area where I find Giulliana repulsive.
 
2007-03-08 08:16:47 PM
Corvus This could turn into something like "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" except that it's not something completely made up.

Actually I think this could backfire (no pun intended) on the union. Rudy is enjoying some good poll numbers right now. They are a union, albeit a fireman's union, nonetheless a union. With the exception of a handful of states, including New York and Michigan, most Americans don't look to kindly on unions anymore. They see them as borderline crooks.

If I'm Rudy, I'm going to just ignore this. No amount of talking by this union could damage him at this time unless he acknowledges their statements (which is something Kerry should have done with the Swiftboaters).

But it does bring to mind an old saying I once heard: Never burn any bridges. If you do, though, nuke 'em. Rudy didn't nuke 'em.

Anybody who is going to vote for Rudy after seeing him in drag could care less about a union.
 
2007-03-08 08:17:15 PM
So now there are only two political parties?
 
2007-03-08 08:19:54 PM
I still can't wait to see both parties figure out how to deal with their own candidates after the normal partisan hatred runs it's course.

This is going to be ugly.
 
2007-03-08 08:19:58 PM
superdolfan1: including New York and Michigan

And Illinois. And California. And Pennsylvania.

That's 152 electoral votes. No big deal.
 
2007-03-08 08:22:45 PM
Only outside NY is Rudy considered a Hero. If it wasn't for 9/11 he would be one of the most hated mayors every.

Seriously 1993 WTC gets bombed, few years later: Rudy decided to but the OEM disaster command center in the only place in NYC that had a successful terrorist attack. It should have been placed in the middle of nowhere not #1 on the terrorist hit parade.
 
2007-03-08 08:22:57 PM
superdolfan1 - They are a union, albeit a fireman's union, nonetheless a union. With the exception of a handful of states, including New York and Michigan, most Americans don't look to kindly on unions anymore. They see them as borderline crooks.

I disagree. I think that the firefighters union transcends partisan divides. They often endorse Republicans.

And while Rudy was busy playing a hero on 9/11, everyone recognizes that these guys actually were heroes that day.
 
2007-03-08 08:25:22 PM
Nobody puts Rudy in the corner.
 
2007-03-08 08:26:06 PM
thelunatick - Only outside NY is Rudy considered a Hero. If it wasn't for 9/11 he would be one of the most hated mayors every.

He's only "America's Mayor" because New York doesn't want him.

/New Yorker
//worked in the WTC on 9/11
 
2007-03-08 08:27:35 PM
Churchill2004: Meh. Any moron can play the hero in the middle of a disaster.

img266.imageshack.us

I disagree.
 
2007-03-08 08:30:43 PM
Poolio: I think that the firefighters union transcends partisan divides. They often endorse Republicans.

I don't know where you're talking about, but I deal with fire unions on a regular basis and I've never seem them endorse anyone but democrats.
 
2007-03-08 08:31:35 PM
This could turn into something like "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" except that it's not something completely made up.

Dude, last thing I want to get into is a flamewar about the 2004 election.

But given Kerry's claims about his "lucky hat" given to him by the CIA, his claim to have "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires to human genitals, razed villages," and others - he's clearly a kook.
 
2007-03-08 08:32:20 PM
Those ingrate firefighters would be all dead now if it weren't for Rudy's heroism on 9/11

(ok, not really, please don't hurt me)
 
2007-03-08 08:37:05 PM
MadSquabbler - I don't know where you're talking about, but I deal with fire unions on a regular basis and I've never seem them endorse anyone but democrats.

According to Albuquerque Journnal, the IAFF endorsed Heather Wilson (R-NM) in 2006.

I'm sure I can find more examples if you'd like.
 
2007-03-08 08:45:43 PM
MadSquabbler: I disagree.

I said any moron. Nagin doesn't even come close to meeting that bar.
 
2007-03-08 09:50:28 PM
This idea that Giuliani was universally hated and would have gone down as NYC's worst mayor if not for 9/11 is a myth. The guy had about a 50% approval rating. He was chock down the middle. Half the people hated him, half the people loved him.
 
2007-03-08 09:59:33 PM
Fraternally and Sincerely,

Harold A. Schaitberger, General President


Tee hee. shiatberger.
 
2007-03-08 10:09:36 PM
2007-03-08 08:31:35 PM Not Available
But given Kerry's claims about his "lucky hat" given to him by the CIA, his claim to have "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires to human genitals, razed villages," and others - he's clearly a kook.


Good lord. He did not say HE personally did these things. He was relating what other veterans told him.
 
2007-03-08 10:26:26 PM
JerseyTim

This idea that Giuliani was universally hated and would have gone down as NYC's worst mayor if not for 9/11 is a myth.

ummm... who said this?

The guy had about a 50% approval rating. He was chock down the middle. Half the people hated him, half the people loved him.

even if he had a near 50% approval rating when he left office, that doesn't necessarily support your contention.
 
2007-03-08 10:27:01 PM
JerseyTim: This idea that Giuliani was universally hated and would have gone down as NYC's worst mayor if not for 9/11 is a myth. The guy had about a 50% approval rating. He was chock down the middle. Half the people hated him, half the people loved him.

Then he's a perfect presidential candidate.

*rolls eyes*
 
2007-03-08 10:32:53 PM
damned right! I for one am glad to see that fire fighters union is taking a stance. His actions were far from honorable
 
2007-03-08 10:34:03 PM
Churchill2004: Any moron can play the hero in the middle of a disaster.

img125.imageshack.us

Your move.
 
2007-03-08 10:34:28 PM
Man, now that's a drag...

www.worldnetdaily.com
 
2007-03-08 10:39:05 PM
Poolio, look at thelunatick's and Poolio's comments up above.
 
2007-03-08 10:40:14 PM
Poolio, look at thelunatick's and Poolio's comments up above.

Holy sweet damn, I'm an idiot.
 
2007-03-08 10:43:59 PM
JerseyTim

I missed that.

/LOL
 
2007-03-08 10:48:30 PM
shiryatsya I for one am glad to see that fire fighters union is taking a stance. His actions were far from honorable

I find it interesting that we are hearing a different side of Rudy from what we've heard before. Being outside of NY, what we see and hear is only what is being served to us by our favorite biased media outlet (you have yours, I have mine, I'm sure). The one that I watched painted Rudy in a very favorable light.

So, assuming that others saw him that way also (and based on the polls, I'm not the only one watching that channel), what are they going to think when the "other" Rudy is presented, the one being portrayed here. Poolio carries a lot of weight, not only being a New Yorker, but being right there when it happened. I'm going to take his word for it. But Jersey Tim seems to make a good case also, saying Rudy was a 50/50 candidate, which is how our last to elections were (no need to re-hash numbers - just go with the outcome during this debate). So now we will have the Poolios vs. the Jersey Tims, which means it will come down to the candidate to prove his point.

I am still not sold on the weight of the unions. Their letter is obviously biased. They're holding a grudge. People who hold grudges sometimes are seen in a negative way.

Regardless of how this turns out, I really hope that the 2008 election doesn't go like the last one. People turning on each other. Vile comments. Just plain ugly. But enough about Kerry, let's turn back to the topic at hand. I hope it's a clean campaign.
 
2007-03-08 10:54:01 PM
I think thelunatick also brought up something very important that I doubt many people outside NYC know about...

Rudy decided to but the OEM disaster command center in the only place in NYC that had a successful terrorist attack. It should have been placed in the middle of nowhere not #1 on the terrorist hit parade.
 
2007-03-08 11:04:59 PM
superdolfan1, to be fair, he was 50/50 in New York, a very liberal city. He's a liberal Republican and, when elected mayor, was also the Liberal Party's candidate in addition to the Republican candidate.
 
2007-03-08 11:12:04 PM
Poolio I think thelunatick also brought up something very important that I doubt many people outside NYC know about...

Rudy decided to but the OEM disaster command center in the only place in NYC that had a successful terrorist attack. It should have been placed in the middle of nowhere not #1 on the terrorist hit parade.


This would maybe be important, but most of us outside of NY do not have the slightest idea of what the OEM disaster command center is, so we will need to be educated (or at least I need to be because they didn't talk about that on my favorite biased media outlet). Based on your comments, this seems to have been a touchy subject, both on what it was and where it was put.

Now, knowing politicians, they never do anything on their own. They seek everybody's advice before acting on it, so I'll assume that Rudy was advised to put this thing where he put it. When people started to complain, he probably had a shot on moving it, but not knowing what it was, I can't be sure about that.

Lets just hope it's a clean fight.
 
2007-03-08 11:20:15 PM
superdolfan1 - Based on your comments, this seems to have been a touchy subject, both on what it was and where it was put.

Personally, my biggest problem with Rudy has more to do with his policies affecting civil liberties, but the placement of the OEM disaster command center most definitely cost a lot of people (read: rescue workers) their lives.

They seek everybody's advice before acting on it, so I'll assume that Rudy was advised to put this thing where he put it.

I believe the prevailing theory is that its placement had more to do with the wishes of one of Rudy's top campaign contributors.

Lets just hope it's a clean fight.

Don't hold your breath. :p
 
2007-03-08 11:38:12 PM
superdolfan1 Actually I think this could backfire (no pun intended) on the union. Rudy is enjoying some good poll numbers right now. They are a union, albeit a fireman's union, nonetheless a union. With the exception of a handful of states, including New York and Michigan, most Americans don't look to kindly on unions anymore. They see them as borderline crooks.

And please explain to me how digging up firemen corpses who died in 9/11 with bulldozers is a way to stop "Crooked unions"?
 
2007-03-08 11:50:30 PM
Not Available writes: Dude, last thing I want to get into is a flamewar about the 2004 election.

Then why do you keep posting Swift Boat lies?

Kerry never said HE "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires to human genitals, razed villages."

What he said (finally in context) is this:
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.
In other words, Kerry is relating to the Senate committee those charges that were related to him. At no time did he either 1) claim to have engaged in these activities or 2) claim to have witnessed them. But as a representative of those that have made the charges, he related them to the Congress.
 
2007-03-09 12:01:50 AM
Poolio: /New Yorker
//worked in the WTC on 9/11


Yeah? Well, I had a view of Sea-Tac airport on 9/11, thanks for asking.
 
2007-03-09 12:05:47 AM
Being an IAFF member, I have to say I'm somewhat surprised, but not truely shocked. I know FDNY & NYPD were both pissed that they were carting off remains to a landfill, and that they basically decided after a certain point to stop looking for bodies (and hey, what do you know, they found some more just last year).

I think all Americans should read "Report from Ground Zero" by Dennis Smith if you truely want a first-hand account of the events of the day. The author is a distinguished former firefighter and journalist, and he cobbles together both the heroism of the day, and the terrible drudgery that followed.

So yeah, both Rudy and Pataki I can do without. Oh, and the other politician who got a ton of mileage out of our brothers' sacrifice -- what's his name again?
 
2007-03-09 12:05:53 AM
Damn, the GOP's only viable candidate just got dissed. I hope Hagel runs or there isn't even going to be a race lol!
 
2007-03-09 12:08:01 AM
Chameleon - Yeah? Well, I had a view of Sea-Tac airport on 9/11, thanks for asking.

we were discussing the perception of Giuliani among New York City residents, and so I felt that information was important as it relates to my impressions of him and his actions.

feel free to disagree.
 
2007-03-09 12:13:21 AM
"I don't know where you're talking about, but I deal with fire unions on a regular basis and I've never seem them endorse anyone but democrats."

In the past, that's vaguely possible. But for at least a decade, the IAFF has had a strong push to bi-partisanship. Especially since the members are pretty evenly split between the 2 (main) parties (firefighters tend to be traditional).

The problem is, finding Republicans who are willing to ever take a stand for our rights. Hell, in my home state, they just tried to pass a bill that would privatize our pensions (no way in hell-- half the guys would be gone in 2 years), and another that would basically do away with worker's comp for us.

So if you think the problem is the union, maybe you should check and make sure that it's not really your local Republican party -- for not owning a major company, some of their members can be the biggest damn fans of any legislation that helps them, and to hell with what happens to the workers. It's like they think that if they can just make other guys rich enough, those guys will be so filled with gratitude that they will just have to give them all a beachfront mansion.

/Meh.
 
2007-03-09 12:36:40 AM
Before this thread gets to ∞+1, check out the top two hits of this search
 
2007-03-09 12:54:26 AM
phillydrifter:

Damn, that shiat pisses me off. I'm as anti-Bush as they come, but fringe nutballs like the conspiracy theorists contaminate the entire movement. I literally could not get through the first video on the page -- it was so full of distorions and out-of-context quotes that it just sickens me. 343 firefighters lost their lives that day -- I'll be damned to sit buy and watch their memories tainted by some doped-up 18-year old who wants to play JFK.

To any of you nuts reading this -- there are plenty of good, worthy causes to fight for or against. Stop smearing the deaths of these brave men to impress your buddies at parties.

Or get a gun and start the damn revolution, if you really believe so strongly. Cowboy up, candyasses.
 
2007-03-09 01:08:07 AM
Firefighters to Rudy: Die in a fire!
 
2007-03-09 01:51:21 AM
Ouch
 
2007-03-09 02:02:25 AM
Good for them, Giuliani is an opportunistic tyrant more in love with his own image and the power it can get him than is good for anybody.

And he's basically as anti-civil liberty as you get with any mainstream candidate except for possibly W. If this Bush Presidency, with its erosion of civil liberties, was followed by a Giuliani Presidency, which would reinforce and accelerate that trend, it would be a disaster for this country and for the foundations of Constitutional democracy itself.

Giuliani has more in common, policy-wise, with AG Alberto Gonzales than just about anyone else I can think of. THAT, my friends, is scary.
 
2007-03-09 02:09:36 AM
superdolfan1

Average perspective on labor unions = Lazy farkers.

Average perspective on fire fighter unions = heroes who chill together.

No relation in the popular consciousness, from where I see it.
 
2007-03-09 02:11:13 AM
Prospero424

if you haven't already read it, check out this piece at TalkingPointsMemo by a former NY Daily News columnist who says basically the same things.
 
2007-03-09 02:20:02 AM
Poolio: if you haven't already read it, check out this piece at TalkingPointsMemo by a former NY Daily News columnist who says basically the same things.

Nah, I hadn't read that. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the link.
 
2007-03-09 03:47:37 PM
I lived 3 blocks north of WTC on 9/11. Rudy's performance sucked. Here's a few tidbits:

* I was forcibly evacuated from my home in a panic - was told that the entire neighborhood might blow up from a gas/methane leak. I got out of there quickly.

* No provisions were made for evacuees. NONE. All evacuated residents were on their own for shelter, food, etc.

* I was not allowed to return for days, although residents were allowed back in at that time. Why?

- The cops insisted that I show a god-damned utility bill that proved my address! Sure, that's what I always think to do when fleeing a disaster.

- The police assigned to checkpoints didn't have maps, nor know the streets that were in the safe zone. So if they didn't know, you must be going to the unsafe zone.

* Lastly, once I was back, there was no thought about how folks in that area would be fed, etc. New Yorkers don't always have cars, and there were no buses, trains, nothing. The solution was to talk 2+ miles each way to the nearest market that had power. I'm sure that there were some folks that were just stranded entirely.

The fact is that Rudy couldn't handle making sure that a relatively small population was taken care of in a disaster, yet he gets credit for doing just the opposite.

jh
 
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