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(informationweek)   U.S. DOT bans Vista, Office 2007 and IE 7 as "there appears to be no compelling technical or business case for upgrading"   (informationweek.com) divider line 66
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1933 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Mar 2007 at 6:57 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-03-05 01:59:28 PM
no shiat.
applies to most consumers too

/hates vista and its loss of functionality
 
2007-03-05 02:04:31 PM
Vista, yes. IE7 and Office 2007 though? Uhh, ok there, chief. Office 2003 is beyond out of date.

At first I thought this guy got it but there is no reason to ban IE7 and Office 2007, especially if you plan on using the new sharepoint technologies.
 
2007-03-05 02:08:53 PM
Translation: The people who make these decisions haven't gotten enough of a bribe from Microsoft to endorse the change to Vista....yet.

/stupid contractors
//bonus trivia: the DOT building in downtown DC doesn't belong to the government. They rent the building.
 
2007-03-05 02:09:03 PM
jasonmicron: Office 2003 is beyond out of date.

while they don't have access to all the new clipart in office 2007, I'm sure office 2003 will still do everything they need.
 
2007-03-05 02:09:19 PM
jasonmicron : Vista, yes. IE7 and Office 2007 though? Uhh, ok there, chief. Office 2003 is beyond out of date.

What does word 2007 do that word 2003 doesn't? (other than XML).

/at this point in time, most new "features" are just shiny gimmicks.
 
2007-03-05 02:11:45 PM
Most offices can get by just fine using Office 97
 
2007-03-05 02:14:19 PM
Vista? Agreed.
Office 2007? Agreed.
IE7? Since it's so closely tied into the operating system, it only makes sense to upgrade to it.
 
2007-03-05 03:44:56 PM
The big picture here is a major US Govt agency publicly saying M$FT product upgrades are not necessary or even desired for business operations.

Hope Redmond is listening carefully. We don't need or want a shiny new car every year just because you produce them.
 
2007-03-05 04:17:39 PM
I still use '98 when my work absolutely requires that I touch Microsoft Word. The Office 2000 downdate completely farked up one of the few things I absolutely was required to touch Word for, so I uninstalled it and haven't downdated since. In fact, my whole office still uses '98, which might be my fault doing.

Me to husband, walking in the door after a long day of Word frustrations: "I'm going to make Microsoft Word my biatch." Words I've strived to live up to ever since.
 
2007-03-05 04:44:01 PM
wow. that's a kick in the teeth to Microsoft.

It'll be interesting to see if MS posts sales stats on Vista in a couple of months. I strongly suspect Vista will not do well in the marketplace.
 
2007-03-05 05:08:49 PM
It makes no sense to upgrade to vista until your hardware can support it and your standard software works properly on it. There are so many software offerings that a company or agency uses that won't work on Vista because of poor software design.

For a large company, Office 2007 isn't cost effective to upgrade to at this time. Most users only use 5% of what office 2003 can do. Upgrading for the better usability is too expensive. I'd be willing to bet that they purchase Office 2007 licenses when their open license contract expires. They can still run Office 2003 then and upgrade new installs at their leisure.

Now for IE7, it makes no sense not to upgrade. There are way too many feature and security improvements to delay any longer than necessary. Of course, I'd just install Firefox and let bin IE7 myself, but that's not entirely an option since so many websites only code for IE.

Weaver95: I strongly suspect Vista will not do well in the marketplace.

Any you're basing that on what?

Dell is selling Vista with all it's new desktops and laptops. So is Acer, HP, Toshiba, and every one of our white-box suppliers. Their numbers will virtually equal the number of new PC's that are bought. Of course, many companies will be doing what we do; Purchasing Vista on our new PC's and installing XP instead. We simply haven't tested/re-written all of our apps to work on it yet.
 
2007-03-05 05:09:15 PM
Yeada yeada yeada Linux yada yda yeada Open Office yeada yeadya yada.
 
2007-03-05 05:22:49 PM
Any you're basing that on what?

There's little reason to upgrade, it's expensive and XP will work just fine for most businesses and/or average users. There are a number of compatiblity issues that are as yet unsolved by MS and third party vendors, as well as issues with some popular computer game titles.

Dell is selling Vista with all it's new desktops and laptops

Yes, but are they doing so because of customer demand, or because they have a contract with Microsoft that says they have to put Vista on those PC's? Not to mention that Vista drives up the cost on their computers, which puts a crimp in thier bottom line. If Dell and the others give customers the option to put XP on their new systems over Vista, I wonder what would happen?
 
2007-03-05 05:23:59 PM
Shocking in that no one moves to a new OS before the first service pack. How many years did it take businesses to move from 2k to xp. 5?
Eventually they will move to vista but not in the first month. duh
 
2007-03-05 05:25:09 PM
Now for IE7, it makes no sense not to upgrade. There are way too many feature and security improvements to delay any longer than necessary. Of course, I'd just install Firefox and let bin IE7 myself, but that's not entirely an option since so many websites only code for IE.

Oh, and I can think of at least one verifiable reason NOT to upgrade to IE7 - installation of IE7 corrupts the current SAP kernel. Our company cannot upgrade to IE7, nor can we do business with IE7 because of that issue. In fact, we've blocked installation of IE7 on corporate computer systems because of this issue.
 
2007-03-05 05:28:20 PM
Scooby's'pawn: Dell is selling Vista with all it's new desktops and laptops

Dell is not just selling Vista, but forcing Vista down customer's throats.

Recently, we had to buy a new desktop box to run some document archiving software. This software required XP.

Since Windows doesn't do RAID 1, we had to find a Dell desktop box that had hardware RAID 1, and could do dual-500GB disks that ran XP.

Dell made us jump through so many hoops, talk to a bunch of different people, beg, blow and hump a bunch of sales people, before they would finally break down and sell us a box with XP, but they almost flat out refused.

They are forcing it down the throats of consumers, which will end up inflating Vista's rollout numbers, and screw a bunch of clients.
 
2007-03-05 05:35:49 PM
Weaver95: Yes, but are they doing so because of customer demand, or because they have a contract with Microsoft that says they have to put Vista on those PC's?

A little of column 'A', a little of column 'B'. Dell's agreement with M$ means that they have to put Vista on all new PC's, but the end(home) user wants the best and the newest. They're demanding Vista.
I agree that most companies won't be mass-upgrading to Vista, but when their Volume licenses run out this year or next, they'll be buying Vista. Since a Vista license allows downgrade rights, I suspect that most won't actually install it for a while, but that will hardly hurt M$ sales.

Muddie: Dell is not just selling Vista, but forcing Vista down customer's throats.

It's hardly their fault. They're not allowed to sell XP per their agreement with M$. You don't see them selling If you want to run XP, just install XP on your Vista machine.
 
2007-03-05 05:46:31 PM
but the end(home) user wants the best and the newest. They're demanding Vista.


Um...no they're not. In fact, given the VERY well documented issues Vista has with video and sound cards currently on the market, Vista has been getting resounding thumbs down from some of the more vocal members of the gaming community. That's around 15% of the market that won't use Vista unless MS puts a gun to their heads.
 
2007-03-05 05:50:22 PM
The government isn't exactly known for making good tech decisions. I'm sure they would probably be happy with still running CP/M if they had a choice. Fortunately most companies that actually care about usability and security are keeping an eye on Vista for integration into their near future. It promises to save a lot of time due to it's intuitive UI and improved document handling abilities. Office 2007 is the same way. Once you use it for a couple weeks you'll never be able to go back because of how easy it is to get things done.
 
2007-03-05 05:53:31 PM
They're not allowed to sell XP per their agreement with M$. You don't see them selling If you want to run XP, just install XP on your Vista machine.

Why should I have to do something that benefits Microsoft? It's MY computer, I should be able to install and run whatever operating system I want on it. Just because DELL made a deal don't mean that I have to be bound my DELL'S contractual obligations. If I want a new Dell computer with XP on installed on it, then I should GET a Dell computer with XP installed on it.
 
2007-03-05 05:57:41 PM
Fortunately most companies that actually care about usability and security are keeping an eye on Vista for integration into their near future.

I can't speak for anyone else, but from what I'm seeing it's not looking good for Vista. The costs involved in upgrading existing IT infrastructure to machines capable of running Vista is reason enough to delay implimentation of the new OS for years. Not to mention all the previously mentioned issues with mission critical non-microsoft third party programs like SAP or Oracle.

At the very least, most businesses are taking a wait and see attitude. They'll squeeze every last dime of operability out of XP before they think about jumping ship to Vista. And believe me, the cost of Vista plus the cost of having to upgrade (or replace) all those desktops so that they can run Vista is a huge determining factor in how quickly a company will integrate Vista into their IT infrastructure.
 
2007-03-05 05:58:00 PM
Weaver95: Um...no they're not.

Oh really? The average home user doesn't have a clue about all of that. They want whatever's newest. We get literally dozens of calls a day about how to get this or that app running on Vista. When we ask why they bought Vista we almost universally get "cause it's the newest and best". I'll readily agree that people who know what they're doing are avoiding Vista, but most end-users are anything but saavy computer shoppers.

BTW, I've been running Vista at work now since it was released. Aside from some minor application computability issues, it's worked fine.
 
2007-03-05 05:59:27 PM
Oh really? The average home user doesn't have a clue about all of that

Pay attention sparky - i'm not talking about the average home user. I'm talking about the gamer community. They are NOT your 'average' user. They want speed, reliablity, compatability and above all they don't want an OS that gets in the way of the game.

Vista gets in the way of the game.
 
2007-03-05 06:07:14 PM
Weaver95: Pay attention sparky - i'm not talking about the average home user. I'm talking about the gamer community. They are NOT your 'average' user. They want speed, reliablity, compatability and above all they don't want an OS that gets in the way of the game.

Sparky? You were talking about Vista sales numbers. I was saying that their sales numbers weren't going to be nearly as bad as you think. The gaming market for PC's makes up a very small part of PC sales. Also those gamers who are saavy will just buy a new PC and install XP on it. But guess what, M$ will still record a Vista sale for that PC.

I agree. I wouldn't run Vista on my gaming PC either, but it will hardly affect Vista sales numbers.
 
2007-03-05 06:13:02 PM
I agree. I wouldn't run Vista on my gaming PC either, but it will hardly affect Vista sales numbers.

Given the types of jobs most computer gamer nerds tend to have, I think it might have more of an effect than anyone realizes...but we'll never really know for sure.

I'm guessing that Vista isn't going to do well in the marketplace. Even with the straightjacket of contracts that MS have locked most PC manufacturers into, Vista won't do as well as MS would like, and I suspect most industry analysts will pretend to be shocked at the end results of poor Vista performance in the marketplace.

Also, now would be an excellent time for PC manufacturers who aren't locked into an MS contract to start looking at stealing marketshare from Dell and Gateway.
 
2007-03-05 06:21:01 PM
Weaver95: Vista gets in the way of the game.

Not if you want DX10, which I think every forward thinking gamer does. Lord knows I loathe microsoft, and the only reason I would EVER consider getting Vista down the road is to use DX10 (once the games start coming out).

Once vista becomes stable (a relative term, of course), and the first game made exclusively for it comes out, things might change.
 
2007-03-05 06:22:39 PM
There isn't any compelling reason for the DOT (or any other governmental agency) to be early adopters of new operating systems or a office suite.

Why would you allow an (as of yet) unproven and untested technology to be allowed into your business? That and the fact that the boys from Redmond haven't exactly been hitting the mark in the security department...

/I hate the third week of every month....
 
2007-03-05 06:24:37 PM
Funny... I remember reading/hearing all the same arguments about XP five years ago.
 
2007-03-05 06:27:30 PM
Once vista becomes stable (a relative term, of course), and the first game made exclusively for it comes out, things might change

Even so, we're still some months away from that happening. Maybe next year at the earliest. Certainly the games currently in the pipeline won't be coded for DX10 (not if they want to stay on production schedule anyways).

All the indicators i've seen lead me to believe that Vista won't be a viable OS for most users for at least a year from now, both on the gamer front as well as on the business front. In the short term, I think Vista won't do very well. And in the long term, I think it'll still have problems, esp in the mid to small business market.
 
2007-03-05 06:45:20 PM
Weaver95: I think Vista won't do very well. And in the long term, I think it'll still have problems, esp in the mid to small business market.

Oh, I concur. I really hope microsoft falls flat on its face this time (a la ME). I just hope that the PC gamers (me) might get a viable second option instead of being tied to a corpse.
 
2007-03-05 07:10:11 PM
www.encyclopediadramatica.com
 
2007-03-05 07:13:37 PM
Weaver95
River in Egypt much?

It's not just DELL. Every major computer seller is tied to the Vista wagon, contractually. Even the ones who have the ability to send you a box with Linux or no OS at all are being squeezed to stop sending out boxes with XP. Soon, the contracts will require that no boxes be shipped with XP. 95% of the PC market is tied to these sellers. And most of the boxes sold are sold with the windows package. This means that Vista will do very well because 99% of the PC's sold in the next 5-7 years will have Vista on them.
It doesn't matter if gamers use it. They still bought it. Sales will still be recorded, and MS will still get paid for it.

The bottom line for PC with Vista will not be any higher than the ones with XP were/are. This is part of the marketing. Sure those Vista disks off the shelf are expensive, but the one pre-loaded on your computer costs practically nothing. Go to DELL.com and see how much you "save" by removing the OS.

Within a year, half the gamer market will be on Vista. It will be forced.
/You have no chance to survive, make your time.
 
2007-03-05 07:16:16 PM
My bad. DELL won't let you do a no OS box anymore. Guess the MS black suits got to them. Anyway... you can have XP or Vista for the same price. No cost difference to the consumer.
 
2007-03-05 07:22:44 PM
Scooby's'pawn: It's hardly their fault. They're not allowed to sell XP per their agreement with M$. You don't see them selling If you want to run XP, just install XP on your Vista machine.

But the problem is that they won't sell me a machine without an OS, and then I have to pay for Vista, and then I have to pay for a copy of XP.

Should not be necessary.
 
2007-03-05 07:25:06 PM
I can't speak for all government agencies but the huge federal one I worked for had a policy that they wouldn't even consider it until a year after launch.
 
2007-03-05 07:30:17 PM
There isn't except the problem that hits any OS as it ages - it gets harder and harder to find software support for new hardware. Open source software also tends to lack backwards compatibility discipline so eventually it becomes easier to just put in a new release rather than trying to upgrade a ton of different libraries.
 
2007-03-05 07:45:02 PM
subby, how does "not implementing" equate to "banning"?
 
2007-03-05 07:50:13 PM
Weaver95:

I wouldn't bother trying to reason with 7of7 I'm surprised he can talk around the giant MS man meat he is always fellating in these threads.
 
2007-03-05 07:51:17 PM
Weaver95

wow. that's a kick in the teeth to Microsoft.

You're usually on the ball on these things, but you're off-base here. The headline is also misleading - these products aren't being rolled out now, but that will change in time.

Most big companies/organizations (with responsible IT staff) aren't switching right over, it doesn't make sense to do it right when this stuff comes out. Let vista sit for a while, let MS work out some of the major bugs/holes, let the vendors get their drivers right, let your IT staff train on it and check for application compatibility problems, then let your security/deployment teams develop hardened customized images.

This means months, maybe even a year or more before they start rolling it out. But they will switch eventually.

Moreover, in relation to your comment, absolutely none of this is a surprise to MS - they know their industry well enough to expect it.
 
2007-03-05 07:51:34 PM
Office 2007 only has better usability if your office workers have never used Office before. If they have, then you're back to square one.
 
2007-03-05 07:52:53 PM
I Can't Find My Pants: subby, how does "not implementing" equate to "banning"?

They've banned it's implementation.
 
2007-03-05 08:02:32 PM
This is nothing new. I used to work for a big Wall St. firm and they didn't even think about upgrading to XP until around 2003. Took until sometime in 2005 before all PCs were running XP.
 
2007-03-05 08:20:06 PM
Bah, run both, pay for neither (pops).
 
2007-03-05 08:42:45 PM
Does anyone here work for a major corporation that HAS rolled out Vista to all employees? At my place of work (which is a ginormous corporation), they aren't going near Vista with a 10' pole because of its lack of business and network support, combined with MS giving said features the big ol Finger.
 
2007-03-05 09:03:54 PM
Muddie [TotalFark]
Actually the default at dell.com is still XP Media edition (upgrade to Pro for $149!). If you buy now you can get the "future upgrade" to Vista for $0. That way you end up with both for the same price. Woo hoo, woo hoo hoo.
Beyond that, I read somewhere (that I can't find right now) that with a Vista license you can run XP instead. Now I'm not going to say how you're going to get the XP disk... but once you have it you can use it with a Vista license. (and then upgrade to Vista once it becomes really viable).
 
2007-03-05 09:19:12 PM
entropic_existence: I wouldn't bother trying to reason with 7of7 I'm surprised he can talk around the giant MS man meat he is always fellating in these threads.

Let the man do his job. He does a piss-poor job so you know he doesn't much like it.
 
2007-03-05 09:24:34 PM
I'm not upgrading our shop to Vista or IE 7 either. The UI improvements in Office 2007 though would be good. The reason for not upgrading though comes in that I'm happy with XP for the office and the nightmare that would come from trying to get my users trained on it. We hired someone that has NEVER used a cell phone the other day. I hate our HR department. :(
 
2007-03-05 09:26:21 PM
Maddogjew

that link is strangely hypnotic
 
2007-03-05 09:37:48 PM
If Microsoft were to tell me "we got a new version of XP with the exact same features but it's faster and uses less memory", I'd pay them $100 and be happy to upgrade. Same with Office. I don't need anything new, just make it faster and use less memory, and maybe just maybe not crash as much. That I'd go for.

Vista? It's slower, it's a pig, and it crashes all the time. Why would anyone upgrade.
 
2007-03-05 09:59:57 PM
Hooray for my 5th greenlight! I wonder when it becomes socially unacceptable to announce it...


Anyhow, it makes complete and total sense. From a tech standpoint, it's a completely unproven and untested platform. From a financial standpoint, standing back and looking at the current solution that easily fits the need, and seeing a potential decrease in productivity as a result of the switch, there really is no reason for the business sector to switch. And, until a decent DX10 game comes out, the only business Vista is going to get is OEM sales. Not a good omen for MS.
 
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