There's something magnificently recursive about people complaining in a dozen posts about others waisting their valuable time and intelligence in pointless arguments.

So, Chavez is going to force the suppliers of food to sell below cost? It seems like his idea of socialism is not to raise the economic level of the poor, but to drop more people to poor status. At least everyone will starve equally at that point.

06:35:34 PM farkeruk: Thing is that in 1970, Sweden was the 4th richest OECD nation (I presume, per capita). Now it's 17th.

Yeah, but now its third-rateness is uniformly distributed.

Albo, stop trying to inject logic and reason into this debate. This is Fark, where mindless sloganeering reigns supreme.

albo: unless you're theo van gogh or ayaan hirsi ali.

i'm reading "while europe slept," and the author makes a case that the european idea of multiculturalism instead of assimilation is a problem--muslims separate themselves and grow grievances. meanwhile, they are the ones having lots of children while the native europeans don't--and that's a problem for the future.

Van Gogh was a terrible thing, yes. But compared to NYC, Madrid or London, we've been lucky so far. Also, Hirsi Ali wasn't kicked out of the country for being an opponent against muslims directly, but more so about entering the country illegally under a false name. All the threats at her adress have remained just that; threats. Same with other anti-muslim politicians such as Geert Wilders. (source on Hirsi Ali)

Mind you, it's the political left that encourages muslim lack of social, cultural and religious integration. Under the guise of 'multiculturalism', we're practically being forced to accept any foreign culture while criticism is automatically regarded as racism and xenofobia. Thankfully, the whole Pim Fortuyn episode broke open a few taboos on criticism of the multicultural model. (That is, until he was killed by a left-wing extremist linked with various left-wing political parties and enviromentalist organizations such as Greenpeace) (source)

So, how does modern islam hold up in the Netherlands these days? Apart from a few random and vague plans at bombings by a bunch of convert teens, things are pretty non-violent around here. A few minor scandals such as goverment subsidies (subsidizng crap; a left-wing principle) to a fundamentalist islamic organization outlawed in Germany and Turkey; Milli Gorus. (source)

Truthfully, I'm more worried about the current goverment than I am about any muslim terror. A christian-socialist goverment where you can bet your ass that freedoms such as euthenasia, gay marriage and the semi-legalized drug policy are gonna be fired upon by smug bible-thumping asshats. I'm more worried about the holy-book-thumping asshats with the ability to pass laws than the holy-book-thumping asshats that have had little impact whatsoever up to this point.

The minimum price on on milk causes excess production, so the government has to buy the excess milk to get it off the market. So what does the government do with all this milk? It drys it and stores it in giant underground caves until they fill up and then give it aways as food aid to poor countries. Any price fixing just causes problems. The free market is the best mechanism known for getting production to equal demand.

I love all the dickwads trying to turn this into Bush v. Chavez. Can't we all just agree that they should both be put in a steel cage deathmatch?

...and then shoot the winner?

Easterned: Where in the Netherlands are you?

I'm from the Dutch bible belt; Ede in Gelderland

now I feel like a relative fark old schooler

we're the run-dmc and whodini of fark

Chavez is doing everything possible to entice the Venezuela population to reduce his span in office/ on earth. Wonder how long before we start seeing a huge migration of contract killers flowing into his country all holding 8x10 photos of him.

I hope I get to be run-dmc!

I hope I get to be run-dmc!

i'm actually the eric B and rakim of fark

does that make me like the Eve 6 of Fark or somtehing?

albo

I hope I get to be run-dmc!

i'm actually the eric B and rakim of fark

Ok you win.

Ever been to a Wegmans?

/it's a grocery store thread, why not talk about the most ass kicking grocery store on the planet?

you're the mc lyte. but male

I'll settle for being the Lee Ving.

The only reason why his scheme doesn't ever work is because it doesn't ever work. Or it does work but with the liberal application of forced death for arguers/complainers. It works if you can get away with going Stalin on the slackers.

Venezuela is a fruit... set aside until ready to eat... its almost ripe by now.

"The Norwegian economy is a prosperous bastion of welfare capitalism, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention."

"The country is richly endowed with natural resources... and is highly dependent on its oil production and international oil prices, with oil and gas accounting for one-third of exports."

From the CIA world fact book, on Norway. So yeah, an oil rich country that is only partly socialist really = socialism sucess.

I can't believe there are still Westerners who (1) prefer Chavez over our array of elected politicians and (2) do not think he has an authoritarian streak a mile wide.

We must remember that before he was elected, he attempted to seize power in a coup as illegal as the one that tried to force him out. I do hope that the CIA station chief in Caracas lost her/his job over that one -- my favorite was when the general that took over didn't even wait six hours before becoming a tinpot dictator himself.

With that said, the IMF has not brought a single nation out of poverty, and my faith in global capitalism is fairly low -- witness the stagnation of wages in the Western world and witness the growing poverty in the developing world (at least the parts that aren't civil warred to death.)

stpickrell: With that said, the IMF has not brought a single nation out of poverty, and my faith in global capitalism is fairly low -- witness the stagnation of wages in the Western world and witness the growing poverty in the developing world (at least the parts that aren't civil warred to death.)


but global capitalism has made headways....see India and china. Rome wasn't built in a day and disparate socioeconomics will probably take generations...plural! But capitalism has the best shot at doing that.

hooray economics!! I don't really see a problem unless this drives the stores out of business. If it does, then the people in the area are worse off than before.

meh. ideally they'd have a free market with a strong rule of law that checked corruption and whatnot. but you can't have it all I suppose.

stpickrell ... the IMF has not brought a single nation out of poverty ...

The IMF exists to protect American interests and influence in foreign countries, in particular to the benefit of Big Business with political connections. Neither the IMF nor Big Business are free-market capitalistic in scope. They are both mercantilistic, which is a ghoulish form of capitalism.

The IMF loans money to nations that screwed up their economies with the catch of enforcing socialist policies to make sure they stay impoverished. When you are bored, look up the policies they require of borrowing nations and see how America, for the most part, doesn't apply these same policies.

Son of Liberty and Heir to the Dynasty of King Amutatum
thanks to AutmEleven, "he's not posting any more online! oh no!"

Socialism sucks. If there is a price limit on a commodity, outside of market forces, then if the goods have to be sold below the production costs, SOMEBODY has to be working for free, or giving up their property for free.

That's how it works, folks. Under socialism, you are not entitled to the end result of your efforts at work. You are meted out what's left after the Government gets it.
Oh, sure, it works great for those who are incapable of paying the natural costs of their life out of the value of their contribution to their society, but for those of us who can earn what we need, it sucks hard, because we have to work hard and get paid crap.

How many of you know a loser who never applied him/herself to finding a skill, developing the skill, and working hard getting the degrees/certifications necessary to become valuable? How would you like it if you both were offered jobs at the same wage?
If this scenario sounds good to you, it's because YOU were the loser mentioned above. There is no beauty in compulsory charity under threat of imprisonment and/or death. Governments get what they want out of you or they kill/imprison you. That's why socialism is awful. It has to be coupled with totalitarianism in order to keep the producers from refusing to comply, revolting, etc.

consdubya: Chavez was elected democratically.

So was bush but that doesnt stop whackos saying he wasnt

Chavez has done a lot of good things for the poor of Venezuela.

Yeah like alienate them from some major trade partners and forcing stores to sell where they arent making a decent profit

He has been in power nearly 10 years and has not resorted to authoritarian rule.

Ummm he rules by executive decree, yeah big difference there

The middle class are still able to live their lives.

Yeah and have no choice except to support someone who keeps them middle class

The poor have access to Health care and food, as well as land.

As they did before as long as you could make money, now they just steal from hard working people which makes everyone happy!

So basically, until proven guilty of being a dickwad dictator, all you retards having a hissyfit about him should STFU.

I think that is already established, along with you being a complete moron

AutmEleven

STFU and come back when you decide to stop whining, and grow a set of balls.

My AutmEleven imitation:

You such losers you don't agree with and you be trolls! I've been on teh intertubes 5 minutes and and all of yoo are wastin your life by hating me! Why don't you get lifes! I did, and Mikey teh meat fairy likes it! Oh, did i tell you bout my bleedin anus?

RedbeardUH: but global capitalism has made headways....see India and china. Rome wasn't built in a day and disparate socioeconomics will probably take generations...plural! But capitalism has the best shot at doing that.

Capitalism? In china? Are you serious, where people are working for $5 a day? Oh thats right you mean where they get to sell the same goods at a nice mark up to us since we ignore that fact.

And India who we basically had to open up trade with and now outsource all our call agents jobs to that none of us can stand calling customer support anymore.

Yeah thats working out well, instead of teaching them to work for it we are buying all their products or sending our crappy jobs there and buying there cheap products. Yay idiocy

And whomever posted earlier Norway is not socialist, its a
constitutional monarchy.

steamingpile: Capitalism? In china? Are you serious, where people are working for $5 a day?

That's capitalism for you. Workers are a commodity like any other. If there were less people who could fill those jobs, pay would increase.

And India who we basically had to open up trade with and now outsource all our call agents jobs to that none of us can stand calling customer support anymore.

Yeah, free trade tends to have that effect. If another country can do a job better, and there are no trade barriers, that job will move to another country.

Yeah thats working out well, instead of teaching them to work for it we are buying all their products or sending our crappy jobs there and buying there cheap products.

What makes you think they're not working for it?

moops
howcome the people so put off by chavez aren't calling for a boycott of venezuelan oil?

ANSWER: because they're greedy hypocritcal whores.
The Obvious tag called, it wants its job back.

Pure communism won't work- despite what idiot rednecks might think, it hasn't been tried. Marx wouldn't recognize what happened in the USSR, or in any of the other "communist" countries.
Pure capitalism didn't work- the US tried it early on, and it was miserable. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" if you want the gory details of what happens in an unregulated market.
A balance, in which business is privately owned and the government keeps them from taking away peoples' rights, lying to them, etc- that is the solution. The sooner we get the laissez-faire idealists and corporate-paid politicians to stfu, the sooner we can get to having a worthwhile country.

misterslippers: the end result is that poor people will be able to afford more food. sounds good in my books.

Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!

The end result of stores being required to sell beef below cost is that those stores will stop selling beef.

The poor will continue to starve.

This is not hard economics! If the government came to you tomorrow and told you that those widgets that you've been producing for 2 dollars now have a price cap of 1 dollar, you wouldn't continue producing 2 dollar widgets to sell for a dollar. You'd stop producing 2 dollar widgets.

The stores will be *required* to sell beef, you say! After all, it's for the poor... And, they will. They'll keep a couple of garbage pieces of beef in a cooler and they'll price it for sale.

Wonderful work...

Democrats taking notes....

jeffster: The poor will continue to starve.

If you're so poor that starvation is an issue, you're not buying meat, sugar and eggs. So this doesn't really affect people who are starving.

The stores will be *required* to sell beef, you say! After all, it's for the poor... And, they will. They'll keep a couple of garbage pieces of beef in a cooler and they'll price it for sale.

I don't think they're going to get off on a technicality. Chavez will either nationalize, or subsidize.

The problem is that Chavez forgot one important rule: If you are going to put price controls in place, you have to do it in conjunction with subsidies. It's great that he wants all the poor people to eat meat...good for him. But you have to compensate the seller if the price is less than the cost of purchase/production. Chavez may have to spend some of that oil money on government subsidies rather than expensive Russian military toys or giving free oil to Cuba.
And trying to draw a parallel between Chavez and the Democrats is just plain retarded.

A dumbass tag because he's forcing grocery stores to take a loss to feed those in need?

Those poor store administrators. How can he take the crumbs from their face and fill the bellies of the poor?

Alright Socialist geniuses, explain to us "moron Capitalists" how long a store (industry, whatever) can continue to lose money before they simply cannot afford to "stay in business" and "provide things" for people.

I'll give you a hint: just as long as you can continue to pay more than YOU earn... in other words once any excess revenues (aka profit) are gone, so is the business.

But I'm sure the poor will enjoy having to grow ALL of their own food. That's certainly a better situation than letting them buy it from a "greedy" Capitalist who does the work for them. Regressing to an agrarian economy is all the rage these days in the civilized world! Hooray for progress!

/Chavez is a testiment to how NOT to run a country.

neomatt: But you have to compensate the seller if the price is less than the cost of purchase/production.

He's fully aware of that, which I imagine is one of the reasons he increased prices and lowered taxes.

But he also thinks they're manipulating prices, which they probably are.

Chavez may have to spend some of that oil money on government subsidies rather than expensive Russian military toys or giving free oil to Cuba.

He's spending plenty on subsidies, which is part of the problem. More people can afford these products, but supply hasn't kept up.

OMFG you people are so effin' retarded!!!!

\\take that to mean whatever you want it to mean
\\\seriously, you're all retarded

I love how people come to Fark and defend the things this man is doing.

The annual inflation rate rose to 18.4 percent last month, the highest in Latin America, from 10.4 percent in May.

That's after he had it at 17 last year.

His brilliant solution? Lop three zeros off the bolivar. Find me someone outside of Fark who thinks that is going to work.

When he wrecks that country, some of you will STILL come on here and defend him.

There is going to be a civil war, and that is not good for the oil market, or maybe I should say its not good for oil consumers. It could be very good for the middle east and western oil companies.

Prepare to bend over for awhile and I hope you have your own supply of petroleum jelly.

Hugo Chavez is a train wreck you simply have to sit back and watch happen. What saddens me is how either there are so many of his stooges on this board or simply how stupid some people are about economics and their knowledge of it in history.

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it and Chavez is at the wheel of repeating so many past mistakes it is stunning. It's just ironic to see how many people are not well read enough to see how many times this has miserably failed in the past.

But it'll work for Hugo Chavez!

HE IS A GOD TO HIS PEOPLE AND CONTROLS THE MEAT FAIRY

My favorite part is how he's going to lop off the three zeros at the end of their currency, which, according to Chavez, will "have a positive psychological effect and lower inflation expectations.''

Because, you know, if the price of bread goes from $0.12 to $0.14 per loaf while I make $20 per month I'm MUCH better off than if bread were to go from $120.00 to $140.00 per loaf while I make $2000.00 per month. Think of how much HAPPIER I'd be!

Oh, and treating the symptoms of a problem while ignoring the root cause is ALWAYS successful. Yup, no denying that. Just keep lopping off those zeros and things will be just fine.

/Maybe Chavez is doing research for an "Idiot's Guide to Destroying an Economy" book?

I cannot wait to watch all the Farkers who thinks he some big hero have to backtrack and eat shiat when the first food shortage hits.

Oops, make that $0.12 to $0.14 while I make $2 per month instead of $120.00 to $140.00 while I make $2000.00 per month.

/because, um, that other way screws up my point by a factor of, um, 10.
//Hey, at least I caught it!
///wasn't a math major, obviously.

Lopping off zeros is a purely psychological move. He is also increasing prices on over 100 staple goods, lowering the VAT, and removing taxes on food.

But that will only slow inflation. He needs to curb public spending. He's pouring WAY too much oil money into the economy.