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(The Progressive)   Death threats for Republican councilman who won't stand during the Pledge of Allegiance   (progressive.org) divider line 66
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970 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Feb 2007 at 7:34 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-02-16 03:25:51 AM
Good for him! What is amazing to me is that people can get so riled up by a symbolic gesture that isn't hurting anyone to the point where they will threaten violence. I personally don't say the pledge due to that anti-communism measure where they added "Under God" during the 50's.
 
2007-02-16 03:27:16 AM
America ..... fark yeah!!
 
2007-02-16 04:09:12 AM
The only time I'm standing up when the national anthem is played is when I'm taking a piss.


/republican (UK version)
 
2007-02-16 04:23:25 AM
We can't be a great nation unless everyone just does what they're told.
 
2007-02-16 04:29:26 AM
Abraham Lincoln said that councilmen who don't stand during the Pledge of Allegiance should be hanged.
 
2007-02-16 04:56:37 AM
RELIGION OF PEAS!
 
2007-02-16 04:57:34 AM
Poolio: Abraham Lincoln said that councilmen who don't stand during the Pledge of Allegiance should be hanged.

I see what you did there.
 
2007-02-16 07:12:39 AM
He's a registered Republican and a libertarian who voted for Bush in 2000.

He's either cheating the party or cheating the ideology. Despite what many Fark posers try to pass off here, he can't really be both...at least, not in this decade.
 
2007-02-16 07:43:57 AM
wow, 2 of them. I've gotten more than that on fark...

/those people are idiots and he has the right to protest without fear of harm.
 
2007-02-16 07:58:58 AM
Gotta love the land of the free.

Aren't loyalty oaths just a LITTLE fascist?
 
2007-02-16 08:08:45 AM
Burn him?
 
2007-02-16 08:11:19 AM
Hal B. Sure: We can't be a great nation unless everyone just does what they're told.

That's exactly what Moses said to the Israelites.
 
2007-02-16 08:23:53 AM
wow, 2 of them. I've gotten more than that on fark...

I got that beat.

I got 3 one night during my college radio show.
 
2007-02-16 08:24:58 AM
Why are these threat of violence being tolerated?
Shouldn't these threats be considered as assaults?

Why is it that these conservatives feel they can get away with threatening people who disagree with them with death, as we have heard in Congress, in this specific case, as well as being publicly issued in the mass media by Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter?

In case nobody is keeping track here, one of these days, some moron is going to go off the deep end and the killing is going to start.

Does everybody think we should wait until then to take action against this insanity?
 
2007-02-16 08:31:56 AM
Tell him to move to Gymkatastan that commie
 
2007-02-16 08:35:17 AM
There is no law he has to stand. Unpatriotic? Yes. Illegal? Not hardly. Good to see him stick to his convictions. And to those threatening his life? Go to Farkin Iraq show your patriotism asswipes
 
2007-02-16 08:36:01 AM
When have Limbaugh and Coulter threatened peoples lives?
 
2007-02-16 08:37:10 AM
Ah...

Flag worship = Nazi tactic
 
2007-02-16 08:46:00 AM
zooklaw7: Flag worship = Nazi tactic

No, no, no. You say, "You know who else made people worship flags? Hitler."

C'mon people, let's Godwin this thread with dignity.
 
2007-02-16 08:53:26 AM
TheOther: Despite what many Fark posers try to pass off here, he can't really be both...at least, not in this decade.

I beg to differ. some folks are more libertarian (socially liberal, fiscally conservative) and long for the return of the Eisenhower-like Republican party, but aren't silly enough to go hang out with the batshiat crazy (big-L)ibertarians.
 
2007-02-16 08:57:44 AM
moienblois

Personally I never stand for the Pledge. It has nothing to do with the "under god" part (even if I am agnostic/atheist). I choose not to stand as an exercise in free speech.

That I can choose to stand or not and use that freedom I feels respects the men and women who died defending that freedom far more than any person that stands and says the damn thing and never thinks twice about it.
 
2007-02-16 08:58:24 AM
Random Reality Check : Why are these threat of violence being tolerated?
Shouldn't these threats be considered as assaults?


The article says the cops took it seriously. They provided protection - until they determined the threat level was low. If they're doing their jobs, I take that to mean they had a little talk with the jokers who emailed/phoned the threats.

As for charges, that's prosecutorial-discretion-driven.
I assume they told the dimwits they WOULD be charged if they repeated.
Not every drunken phonecall results in arrest.

//Think this guy is an attention whore for the whole "not standing during the pledge" thing - but going past recall threat to death threat? Not cool.
 
2007-02-16 09:00:16 AM
img297.imageshack.us
 
2007-02-16 09:01:09 AM

When have Limbaugh and Coulter threatened peoples lives?


Is this a joke?
 
2007-02-16 09:10:38 AM
Though its not against the law to not stand and take your hat off , it does show respect for that which brought you to that place and allows you to show disrespect without ear of reprisal which in many countries would at least land you in jail or worse.
What political affiliation they are with is secondary as their are plenty of people on both sides who would take a dim view of being disrespectful.
 
2007-02-16 09:19:16 AM
Doc Smiley
Personally I never stand for the Pledge. It has nothing to do with the "under god" part (even if I am agnostic/atheist). I choose not to stand as an exercise in free speech.
That I can choose to stand or not and use that freedom I feels respects the men and women who died defending that freedom far more than any person that stands and says the damn thing and never thinks twice about it.


Personally I think you are an attention whore who likes to think he is "shakin' up the man" with your scary dissent
 
2007-02-16 09:28:31 AM
Hang On Voltaire: Personally I think you are an attention whore who likes to think he is "shakin' up the man" with your scary dissent

A valid point. I personally choose to stand, but choose to leave out the "under god" part, as I believe in everything else in the pledge, but not the unconstitutional part that was added later.

I'm an originalist.

Great thing about this country is that you're not FORCED to pledge to anything. Anyone who denigrates the gentleman in TFA or Doc Smiley certainly has the freedom to, but I think has a little bit to learn about being an American.
 
2007-02-16 09:36:20 AM
Puppeteer_23 : Anyone who denigrates the gentleman in TFA or Doc Smiley certainly has the freedom to, but I think has a little bit to learn about being an American.

See that's the thing about freedom to dissent, it also means others are free to dissent from your dissent. A point many "oh look at ME! I'm different - just like all my friends!" dissenters fail to grasp when they criticize others for criticizing them.
 
2007-02-16 09:38:18 AM
Looks like he's been Dixie Chicked.... I tell ya those republicans will turn on you faster than a drill seargent on a gay cadet.
 
2007-02-16 09:38:32 AM
Johnny Savage: When have Limbaugh and Coulter threatened peoples lives?

Coulter?

Here
here
 
2007-02-16 09:39:35 AM
See that's the thing about freedom to dissent, it also means others are free to dissent from your dissent. A point many "oh look at ME! I'm different - just like all my friends!" dissenters fail to grasp when they criticize others for criticizing them.

This is why I love FARK - "It's only attention whoring when someone disagrees with me."

Christ, the guy is sitting respectfully in silence. He's not making a scene, he's not causing a promotion, he's just refusing to stand and recite a loyalty oath.
 
2007-02-16 09:42:58 AM
bmasso: See that's the thing about freedom to dissent, it also means others are free to dissent from your dissent. A point many "oh look at ME! I'm different - just like all my friends!" dissenters fail to grasp when they criticize others for criticizing them.

Right. In case you missed it, I was agreeing with you.

But the freedom to dissent from someone else's dissent still doesn't trump my freedom to dissent from the dissenter's dissent.

...or call him an ass.
 
2007-02-16 09:44:24 AM
Let freedom ring.
 
2007-02-16 09:57:58 AM
BMasso : See that's the thing about freedom to dissent, it also means others are free to dissent from your dissent. A point many "oh look at ME! I'm different - just like all my friends!" dissenters fail to grasp when they criticize others for criticizing them.

The Homer Tax : Christ, the guy is sitting respectfully in silence. He's not making a scene, he's not causing a promotion, he's just refusing to stand and recite a loyalty oath.

You don't always have to stand to make yourself stand out.
In this case quite the opposite.
And being loyal to "the flag and to the country for which it stands" would be such a BAD thing?

Jebus Herbert Walker Khrist!, you can pledge and not be in agreement with whoever's currently running things. The pledge doesn't require party affiliation, doesn't require mindless 1984 drone step-marching, and doesn't require that things freeze just as they are. It's a pledge to an IDEAL of an America with "L & J for all". Sheesh.

//And the whole "under God" bruhaha is neatly sidesteped by not saying that part if it offends thee. JHWK, I was taught that that was OK to leave out by a GD Roman Catholic NUN in grammer school.
 
2007-02-16 10:11:19 AM
You don't always have to stand to make yourself stand out.
In this case quite the opposite.
And being loyal to "the flag and to the country for which it stands" would be such a BAD thing?


You're making a fundamental mistake here. You're equating the non-recitation of a forced loyalty oath with *not* being loyal to one's country. The two are not one in the same. If you are *truly* loyal to you country, you shouldn't have to "pledge" as such every single day - that's over compensation.

It's like that couple that you know, in public they are all lovey-dovey and happy. They talk about what a great relationship they have, and how everything is wonderful, etc. They're broken up a week later because he was farking his secretary and she was farking her personal trainer. They were over-compensating because of deep-seeded issues.

When they brought the mandatory pledge back when I was in HS, I stood, but did not recite. The reason was *not* because I was unloyal to my country. The reason was because I was *so* loyal that I found the notion of a daily requiste oath affirming as such offensive.
 
2007-02-16 10:14:19 AM
The pledge is worthless. People who stand up and mumble a string of words that probably have no meaning to them are not better Americans than people who sit quietly during the pledge.

BMasso : See that's the thing about freedom to dissent, it also means others are free to dissent from your dissent. A point many "oh look at ME! I'm different - just like all my friends!" dissenters fail to grasp when they criticize others for criticizing them.

Then they are also free to dissent from the dissent of their dissent. You, apparently, are dissenting from the dissent of the dissent of their dissent.
 
2007-02-16 10:21:32 AM
Hibno, I dissent from your dissent of my dissent of the Councilman's dissent. [grin]
 
2007-02-16 10:36:01 AM
he Homer Tax : You're making a fundamental mistake here. You're equating the non-recitation of a forced loyalty oath with *not* being loyal to one's country. The two are not one in the same. If you are *truly* loyal to you country, you shouldn't have to "pledge" as such every single day - that's over compensation.

Well, by that arguement not being willing to take a forced pledge to tell the truth in court shouldn't be confused with not being willing to tell the truth. Heh, in fact a true lier might take that pledge without a qualm.

But the social assumption is that a man/woman says what they mean, and means what they say. If you're unwilling to say "I'll tell the truth", or "I pledge my alliegance", or "I love you" (all "forced" by societal circumstances, btw) it's not THAT far a stretch to wonder if you actually WILL tell the truth, are loyal to [X], or do love [X].

Is it overcompensating to say "I love you" every day to your S.O.?
If so, I fail to see the harm.
In fact, reminding each other of the fact may help make/keep it true.
Just ask Stuart Smally. [grin].
 
2007-02-16 10:47:29 AM
I find it amusing (read: scary as shiat) that this thread has so quickly forgotten the fact that people were threatening to bury this guy in concrete for not saying the pledge.

Seriously, who's the 'worse' American? The guy who does something you may disagre with, yet still explains his dissent in an articulate fashion,

-or-

Mr. "I'm outside yer window, plannin yer murder"

Implicitly, at least, a good number of you (not the majority, but a good number) seem to actually be defending those making the threats.

Is THAT the flag he should be pledging allegiance to?


/digression within digression over.
 
2007-02-16 10:48:54 AM
Hmmm... Lawyer+Mensa+Libertarian+Republican

fark him.
 
2007-02-16 10:52:39 AM
"Hmmm...Lawyer+Mensa+Libertarian+Republican

fark him."

I rest my goddamn case.
 
2007-02-16 10:54:01 AM
Is it overcompensating to say "I love you" every day to your S.O.?
If so, I fail to see the harm.


You're failing to grasp the point. It's not overcompensating to say ILU every day to your SO, if you are doing it voluntarily. But that's not a similar situation to a Forced daily loyalty pledge.

A better analogy would be your SO saying "You better tell me that you love me every day, if you fail to do this then I will assume that you do not love me anymore."

If your SO said that to you, what would be the value in you telling her that you love her everyday? By making the Pledge requisite, and accusing those who opt not to say it of being disloyal, we have removed any value that the recitation of the Pledge once had.
 
2007-02-16 10:59:34 AM
Good for him.

/registered Republican who doesn't say the pledge either
//USA USA USA USA...chyea right.
 
2007-02-16 11:02:25 AM
there's only one thing you should stand to in regard to the flag, and that's the national anthem.
good for him.
 
2007-02-16 11:11:23 AM
CalvinMorallis : I find it amusing (read: scary as shiat) that this thread has so quickly forgotten the fact that people were threatening to bury this guy in concrete for not saying the pledge.

Read my posts, fer one. I said early on the threat-makers were idiots and death threats were bad. That out of the way, do you really think then that it's affirming death threats to say that (IYHO) the Councilman IS wrong?

Repeat : Death threats = bad. Councilman = don't agree.

Seriously, who's the 'worse' American? The guy who does something you may disagre with, yet still explains his dissent in an articulate fashion,....

Seriously, not an either/or.

Is THAT the flag he should be pledging allegiance to?

When the flag has words on it saying "death to [x}" on it, THEN pledging to it would be pledging to death theats. Now? - Not so much.
 
2007-02-16 11:14:12 AM
So at the February 5 meeting, he remained seated and quiet while the other members rose to recite the Pledge.

Didn't know that scary nationalistic crap was also done outside of schools.

The Homer Tax: bmasso
Is it overcompensating to say "I love you" every day to your S.O.?
If so, I fail to see the harm.

If your SO said that to you, what would be the value in you telling her that you love her everyday? By making the Pledge requisite, and accusing those who opt not to say it of being disloyal, we have removed any value that the recitation of the Pledge once had.


bmasso, have you ever heard of the Third Wave?
If not, you (or anyone else) might find the above text interesting.
 
2007-02-16 11:15:06 AM
At least you'll react when there's something important at stake.
 
2007-02-16 11:31:51 AM
BMasso : Is it overcompensating to say "I love you" every day to your S.O.?
If so, I fail to see the harm.


The Homer Tax : You're failing to grasp the point. It's not overcompensating to say ILU every day to your SO, if you are doing it voluntarily. But that's not a similar situation to a Forced daily loyalty pledge.

No no, I think there IS a simularity in play here. Let's roleplay. Your S.O. kisses you goodbye in the AM saying "I love you". Your spoken response? It'd better NOT be "I love me, too"! You know what the REQUIRED response here is, so don't play dumb. It's "I love you too, honey." or words to that effect.

A better analogy would be your SO saying "You better tell me that you love me every day, if you fail to do this then I will assume that you do not love me anymore."

Except the Councilman's gripe isn't the FREQUENCY of The Pledge, it's that he doesn't want to say it at all. Fair enough, I disagree with that, but he's an adult and if he's willing to take the political heat (compensated by the political moonbat love), OK. Then he goes another step further and shows disrespect by remaining seated - when silently standing would show dissent WITH a modicum of respect for others. If I'm at any sort of public ceremony - civic OR religious - and every one stands - I stand as well. That's common courtesy. Sheesh, standing during the Russian National Anthem or the recitation of a (standing-up) prayer at an Orthodox High Mass doesn't mean I'm "converted" to Russian.
 
2007-02-16 11:38:36 AM
bmasso

I agree it's courteous to stand during the pledge even if you don't recite it. He's a grownup and free to be discourteous.
 
2007-02-16 11:40:14 AM
Except the Councilman's gripe isn't the FREQUENCY of The Pledge, it's that he doesn't want to say it at all. Fair enough, I disagree with that, but he's an adult and if he's willing to take the political heat (compensated by the political moonbat love),

It's funny that you use the words "heat" and "love." but you only qualify one with "moonbat." In this case, the "heat" involves death threats...so, who exactly, is the "Moonbat?"

OK. Then he goes another step further and shows disrespect by remaining seated - when silently standing would show dissent WITH a modicum of respect for others.

So, your only issue really is that he is sitting quitely and not standing quietly? That seems like splitting hairs.

If I'm at any sort of public ceremony - civic OR religious - and every one stands - I stand as well. That's common courtesy. Sheesh, standing during the Russian National Anthem or the recitation of a (standing-up) prayer at an Orthodox High Mass doesn't mean I'm "converted" to Russian.

Awesome, good for you. I gotta say, though, that the person who is complaining about a guy who is sitting instead of standing during the pledge is the one who comes off like a true "Moonbat" in this scenario. Seriously, don't you think that caring so much about such a little detail is at least slightly fanatical?
 
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