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(The Raw Story)   Chinese deny participation in outer space arms race, claim recent satellite weapon test was just advanced fireworks   (rawstory.com ) divider line
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2704 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2007 at 10:31 AM (9 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-01-19 10:33:18 AM  
Set the clock to 3 minutes 'til midnight.
 
2007-01-19 10:34:01 AM  
happy new year
 
2007-01-19 10:35:14 AM  
Light satelite and run away
 
2007-01-19 10:36:24 AM  
Another Chinese official confirmed to dpa that the foreign ministry had not been informed of the measure.

"We don't know what's going on," he said.


Well, that's a good sign. Way to organize a diplomatic response, China. I think they hired Rummy away from the Bush administration for his military/poltical coordination skills.
 
2007-01-19 10:37:04 AM  
As if Rummy wasnt always working for Commie China.
 
2007-01-19 10:37:24 AM  
img263.imageshack.us
 
2007-01-19 10:37:59 AM  
You know, I'm as jingoistic as most americans are, but the arrogance we display sometimes is laughable. How the hell can we do something, and then tell the world's most populus nation that they can't? We did it in 85, so why can't they do it now?

Is the US the only country in the world which should be allowed to have advanced military technology?
 
2007-01-19 10:38:31 AM  
They said...
www.thethirteenthstep.com
 
2007-01-19 10:39:04 AM  
i'll say the same thing i said in yesterday's thread:

***

because china lacks the gps and spy satellite infrastructure, the prelude to any offensive war and the first step in any defensive war would be to destroy all orbiting platforms.

this is the most logical course of action. china has a large conventional military and a well-equipped one, at that. if you take away gps and satellite guided bombs, then they are at no disadvantage to any other nation and at a distinct advantage compared to most. the resulting war would be much more an over the horizon style war typical of ww2 and korea.

this is an interesting development and demonstrates the chinese capabilities. by showing that they possess the means to destroy satellites, they reinforce the relevance of their military as both a deterrent and as a coercive tool.

****

no one de-orbits a satellite by wasting it with a missile. that's economic idiocy. the chinese knew what they were doing.

this was, plainly and simply, a practical demonstration. not a threat, not a mistake. it is what it is.
 
2007-01-19 10:39:10 AM  
The US is just jealous because Reagan couldn't get OUR orbital defense and support technology to work.

Note to US and Japan: China is not your ally! Stop acting like this schiat surprises you, and just do something about it...

War of the Ageing Weather Satellites!

...and, is it "ageing" or "aging?" I see it both ways everywhere, and it's driving me crazy!
 
2007-01-19 10:46:06 AM  
Saterrites gone
Up to the skies
Thing rike that drive me
Out of my mind

I watched it for a rittre whire
I rike to watch things on tv

Saterrite of rove
Saterrite of rove
Saterrite of rove
Saterrite of

Saterrites gone
Way up to mars
Soon it wirr be firred
With parking cars

I watch it for a rittre whire
I rove to watch things on tv

Saterrite of rove
Saterrite of rove
Saterrite of rove...
 
2007-01-19 10:46:43 AM  
boritom - there is nothing that needs to be done. china is not our ally, but neither is it our enemy. currently we have no major issues with them, tiawan aside. they are assisting with the dprk, they are a major trading partner for durable goods, we supply them with food goods, and they stay out of our sandbox.
 
2007-01-19 10:47:36 AM  
Boxingoutsider
Is the US the only country in the world which should be allowed to have advanced military technology?


There should be an International Military Patent. These IMPs would be guarantee monopoly access to their originators for a set period of time.

Of course, if an IMP is good only for a couple of decades, it would have expired by now, and we should expect cheap Chinese knockoffs.
 
2007-01-19 10:53:58 AM  
Shep,

Even if they wasted our GPS satellites in that area, that would hardly equal the footing of any potential war. GPS is important, but it's not the only thing that gives us an IMMENSE firepower and technology advantage. We'd own the skies, and our mechanized infantry is light years ahead. Their only superiority would be sheer numbers.
 
2007-01-19 10:55:04 AM  
Boritom The US is just jealous because Reagan couldn't get OUR orbital defense and support technology to work.

Actually, the US successfully tested an ASAT weapon in 1985. China successfully tested a technology that we've had for the past 21 years. Shooting down a high speed ICBM isn't the same as shooting down a satellite with a predictable orbit.

Note to US and Japan: China is not your ally! Stop acting like this schiat surprises you, and just do something about it...

All the shiat that says "made in China" would tend to disagree with you. China and the US are at the least strong economic allies. As for "doing something about it", what do you propose? Attack China? Yeah, that will go down real well. They have a military force larger than ours, nuclear capabilities, and now the ability to render satellite based operations useless. Also, it would wreak havok on our economy.

China's not going to hurt anyone.

/except maybe Taiwan.
 
2007-01-19 11:01:01 AM  
"We don't know what's going on! RRY! Anyways have fun in Iraq! It would be such a shame if you don't make good on our roans though!"
 
2007-01-19 11:05:33 AM  
In all honesty some of their fireworks are fantastic. I for one believe them.
 
2007-01-19 11:07:53 AM  
China v. the US would be mainly an economic war. A conventional war would be futile for both sides. They could not transport any meaningful amount of men across the pacific to our shores without our navy butchering them. Conversely, we could manage the transport, but then would be invading a country of a billion with a force of maybe 400,000 men at most. Neither side could win.
 
2007-01-19 11:08:10 AM  
Ground control to Major Tom,
Ground control to Maj-
Oh phuk...
 
2007-01-19 11:09:01 AM  
boxingoutsider, did you RTFA? We've stated that there's nothing "illegal" about their actions. We, and several other nations, are concerned because China has repeatedly said they will not pursue a space-arms race.

So this action would tend to undermine that statement. China still refuses to admit that they're putting arms in space, and the US, in light of this action, is politely calling them liars, and wanting them to come clean.
 
2007-01-19 11:11:00 AM  
If anyone should fear the Chinese, it's the Russians. Russia is an very "underpopulated" (and getting "worse") country right next to an very overpopulated one.
 
2007-01-19 11:11:30 AM  
"We are concerned about it, and we've made it known," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

Tony Snot if a piece of shiat. I'm concerned about it, and I've made it known.
 
2007-01-19 11:24:55 AM  
Me Rikey!


/solly.
 
2007-01-19 11:28:00 AM  
China and the US will never ever go to war (ok I ain't a seer, so I can only guarantee for the next 100 years). Maybe light skirmishes here and there for fun, that's about it.
 
2007-01-19 11:29:30 AM  
They're a most favored nation and our ally, why is this a problem?
 
2007-01-19 11:30:55 AM  
I like the comments here LOL.

For the youngsters here - this is what the Arms Race used to look like - except dozens of times faster than what's going on at the moment - for the moment...

In WW2, I was recently reading, the P-41 Mustang went from idea to drawing board to flying prototype in 3 months.
 
2007-01-19 11:41:27 AM  
Yeah, cause its not like we have anything like that
 
2007-01-19 11:52:00 AM  
Look at US kenetic kill vehicle tests...
Look at GMD flight tests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense
Look at Aegis flight tests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System
Look at THAAD flight tests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_High_Altitude_Area_Defense
Look at PAC3 flight tests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Advanced_Capability-3
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/bmdo-04zl.html

What we have today might not be Reagan's starwars idea and it might not be perfect, but it's been pretty successful, especially PAC3 and AEGIS.
 
2007-01-19 11:58:02 AM  
It was probabry those damn mongorians...
 
2007-01-19 12:00:42 PM  
P-51 Mustang...
And while it did go from drawing board to prototype in 3 months, it wasn't until the Merlin engine was added to it after it had served for I want to say almost two years before it became the beast of the skies that we know it as today.
 
2007-01-19 12:01:02 PM  
Boxingoutsider that's the point. shear numbers have value in a conflict.

take normandy as a classic example. did we have superior technology? no

did the germans have a highly fortified, well defended position? yes

how did we take the beaches? by putting up so many soldiers that the germans could never kill them all before the germans were killed, themselves. that was the tactic.

now - imagine that the nazis had satellites. think that normandy would have been a "surprise"? nope.

i wasn't just speaking of gps. i was speaking of any satellite. aerial recon is imperfect and limited - it can only see small areas at a time. fragments of reality - not the big picture. satellite imagery lets you see *everything* - the fakeout, the real troop staging area, the theater missles that are being deployed to take out your supply lines....

if you see those things - you have the opportunity to adapt. if you do not - you are playing the same game that your enemy is. and your chances of winning against an army 10x larger than yours just went way down ;)
 
2007-01-19 12:15:17 PM  
It's ok for the US to participate in an outer space arms race, but not for the Chinese.
 
2007-01-19 12:21:09 PM  
We are spending all this time, money, and lives fighting this "war on terrorism". While I feel actions should be taken to fight it, we have it too high on our priority list.

I constantly hear how our freedom is being threatened by these terrorists but I disagree. I even have heard some idiots state that if Al Gore were president we all would be speaking Arabic by now. While it is terrible that people die in terrorist attacks, this is harldy a threat to our freedom or our nation's existance.

Look at 9-11 for example. The most devestating terrorist attack on U.S. soil and one of the biggest tragedies in our history. Even with the massive deaths and attacks on 9-ll there was no chance of the terrorists overthrowing our government and submitting us to their rule. They lack the ability of any type of massive invasion force to do this.

China on the other hand has the ability to invade and occupy the U.S. They have nuclear weapons and the ability to reach us with them. They have a big enough army and navy to invade and occupy the U.S., especially with how thinly our forces are spread out now. China is the biggest holder of U.S. bonds(our national debt), floods our market with cheap products due to unfair trade practices, and has taken over our entire consumer electronics industry.

If China wants to destroy us financially or militarily they have the ability to do so. Unfortunately we are the ones who empowered them to be able to because too many people are blinded by the desire to make a buck. China knows this and is using our greed against us.

Don't forget China's growing influence in South and Central America. While we are alienating socialist leaning but democraticly elected leaders by stubbornly refusing to try to get along with them, China is becomming their best friend.

As tragic as 9-11 was, compared to what China can do to us, 9-11 is merely a pin prick compared to what China can do to us.

I am not trying in any way to undermine the tragedy of 9-11 or minimalize the tragic losses of life. I also am not saying invade or cut off all relations with China. I am saying we need to significantly adjust our policy with them.

It is apparent that while enjoying our money, China sees the U.S. as a long-term threat and are making plans to handle this percieved threat we pose to them. It is about we started doing the same thing also concerning them.
 
2007-01-19 12:51:18 PM  
http://www.jimjagger.com/JBlog/China_ILikeChinese.jpg

Well, that much really. In fact when I think about, I don't really.
 
2007-01-19 12:52:09 PM  
This is what I meant.

www.jimjagger.com

Well, not that much really. In fact when I think about, I don't really.
 
2007-01-19 12:53:28 PM  
Sure china could invade us...when teleportation is invented.

There are certainly scenarios... but highly, highly unlikely.

No, all great states are eventually toppled from within. The spoiled brat descendents of those who made the country great just fark everything up.

I'm much more concerned about China's complete lack of an ethical code than its military might. They give lip service to concepts like intellectual property and trade secrets, but let's be honest, they will do anything necessary to get what they want.
 
2007-01-19 12:55:14 PM  
Dave L: In WW2, I was recently reading, the P-41 Mustang went from idea to drawing board to flying prototype in 3 months.

Was that when the military was building it's own rather than buying? good luck with that now...
 
2007-01-19 01:49:08 PM  
China has historically sought to maintain and protect buffer states around its boarders. China has been invaded - most recently by the Japanese in the 1930's - but doesn't have a history of making imperialistic/colonial land grabs ala the Japanese, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, French, English, Americans and Turks in recent history.
 
2007-01-19 01:56:48 PM  
darkenergy "all great states are toppled from within"


i'm curious to know how you came up with that?

look at:
china,
japan,
the british,
persia,
the carthagians,
the triple alliance (the aztec empire),
the iroquois nations,
the cherokee.....

how many more examples do you want of current and historic nations and cultures that do not follow that pattern?

 
2007-01-19 03:10:22 PM  
I think this is about Taiwan, and disrupting satcom and GPS over that area prior to and during a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be an obvious step they'd take in hindering our response. God knows the Chinese are traditionally a patient people, but while everyone on this side just assumes Taiwan will remain status quo, wishing it so will not keep it so. Meanwhile, The Mainland Chinese are determined to re-take the island and re-integrate it. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but they have a time table for it. They'll try economic and political and diplomatic means until those are exhausted, then they will wait for the most opportune moment to make a move, when the odds run their way. Once they get a foothold, it's all over, I doubt we're gonna nuke anybody over it. Fait accompli, the French call it.

I would expect another buildup of navy assets in the region and repositioning of airpower to increase response capability on the conventional level. So much of the command and control for those assets is sat-based, it's at once a powerful, advantageous tool... and an Achilles' heel.
 
2007-01-19 03:12:53 PM  
heavymetal
China on the other hand has the ability to invade and occupy the U.S. They have nuclear weapons and the ability to reach us with them. They have a big enough army and navy to invade and occupy the U.S., especially with how thinly our forces are spread out now.


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Just stop.
 
2007-01-19 03:24:40 PM  

2007-01-19 01:56:48 PM shep.1972

darkenergy "all great states are toppled from within"


I think what he meant to say was that all great states/empires fall as a result of their internal politics causing external problems. This does generally does hold true.

The rich in the empire (plutocrats) in question plunder the wealth of the nation and of the satellite states to satisfy their insatiable greed, and become incredibly corrupt and inept at running the empire. It doesn't take long for the next generation of animals to pick up the slack.
 
2007-01-19 04:04:03 PM  
This should be a reality check to anybody who knows of what value satellites are.

They kinda make it possible for us to use nukes, intercept inbound missles, communicate with our forces globally, you know, small things.
 
2007-01-19 04:39:59 PM  
Goodfella i'd disagree. in fact i'd state that every situation is different and in each example a unique set of circumstances (some internal, some external, some climatic, etc.....) hastened the end of any number of cultures/empires.

examples contradicting your assertion that "all great states/empires fall as a result of their internal politics causing external problems":

the inca - what external problems did they create?

the triple alliance - true, their enemies hated them. but, ultimately, they fell not because of internal policies making external problems, but because of external threats wanting their gold.

china during the opium wars...
the african zulu nation destroyed by the dutch...
etc.etc.etc.

these cultures weren't "making problems in the world around them" no - these cultures were in the way of someone else taking what they wanted.

what about cultures that just "went away", "faded" or were absorbed into other groups? the vikings, the babaylonians, the persians, the sultanates, the emirs, the greeks, the mongol horde....


making broad generalizations or general analogies is, in my opinion, not a good way to understand or digest complex sets of facts. take each case at face value...bore into the details. understand the details in the context of that moment in history. resist the urge to draw parallels when you start the process again...instead let the facts guide you to good conclusions, once more.


if you want to understand what china is...then study china. they are not "evil"...but they are also not western. while many of the goals may be the same (e.g. make a good life for *your* people, *your* way ) the tactics used to obtain those goals are often not. the value placed on the intangibles (freedom, status, deceit, trust, honor, etc...) are different. that does not mean that either way is "correct" - but it does mean that you need to view *their actions* through *their lens* - not yours - to truly understand why they have done something.
 
2007-01-19 04:54:05 PM  
Anyone hear about our wargames in India? F-15s were getting pownd without AWACS and other high tech advantages. It stands to reason that there are MANY of our systems that would be crippled or useless without satelite resources. We depend heavily on high tech, and an enemy that could disable the keystone of those high tech weapons renders us nothing more than a moderately sized force, probably in chaos, since we would be switching to 'plan B' in disbelief of our bad situ.
 
TSE
2007-01-19 05:30:53 PM  
"Anyone hear about our wargames in India? F-15s were getting pownd without AWACS and other high tech advantages."

sources, please.
 
2007-01-19 05:52:27 PM  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3834843.stm
or google it
It was also mentioned in a Time article about the ramifications of this test.
 
2007-01-19 06:37:51 PM  
Somewhere from way back, I hear Ronald Reagan saying, "I told ya so", as I remember the "other" Star Wars from the 80's.

/Lights smoke
//Gets out lawn chair for the show.
 
2007-01-19 07:00:59 PM  
Erm...you are aware that this was a satelite, not a ballistic missle, right? Apple != Orange
 
2007-01-19 07:26:38 PM  
Not the ICBM factor so much as the fantastic laser light show that the nightly news just rehashed the animation of...

/for clarification
//Could somebody please pass the special glasses
 
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