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(China Daily)   Remember Reagan's anti-missile defense program that would never work and wasted missions of dollars? Well, the Chinese & Russians successfully tested their anti-satellite "kinetic kill vehicle."   (chinadaily.com.cn) divider line 208
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12207 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jan 2007 at 4:29 PM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-01-18 02:04:03 PM
To show the diff'rence I hope this'll:
A satellite's far from a missile
 
2007-01-18 02:05:44 PM
EVERYBODY PANIC!!
 
2007-01-18 02:06:09 PM
That's not the Reagan anti-missile program. Hitting an orbiting satellite with a ground launched interceptor isn't terribly difficult. The orbit is known to the nth degree and does not vary by more than a tiny fraction per orbit. That gives them the ability to lock in the flight plan with extreme precision before launch. The Reagan "star-wars" plan was to hit incoming ICBM missiles. That is several orders of magnitude more difficult; requiring advanced tracking to aquire the incoming missiles, determine their precise trajectory, plot an intercept course, launch the interceptor, receive mid-course telemetry, make corrections, and achieve interception. That's a hell of a lot more difficult than just hitting an orbiting satellite with a very well defined orbit. Also, the star-wars interceptor needs to be able to do all that in real-time with only minutes to make calculations before launching. The chinese test could have been planned for months and checked/rechecked a hundred times before launch.

Apples != Oranges
 
2007-01-18 02:09:10 PM
is it just me or does "kinetic kill vehicle" sound like some cool secret weapon in the next MGS game

or at the very least Twisted Metal
 
2007-01-18 02:11:47 PM
"Look, Maggie! It's Sergeant Thug's Mountaintop Command Post! Complete with "DeathBringer Missiles" that really launch."

/Simpsons oldie
 
2007-01-18 02:13:18 PM
remus is right. This is an interesting "baby step", but they're a long way from deploying a workable anti-missile system.
 
2007-01-18 02:14:06 PM
Missions of dollars? Is that a lot?
 
2007-01-18 02:19:05 PM
Yeah, but we still have a Basselope. They dont
 
2007-01-18 02:19:10 PM
I always thought the Russians used a pencil instead...
 
2007-01-18 02:23:36 PM
Look, buddy, I've been looking over your books and... well, it's just not good. First you've got this spelling/typo problem with your "millions" actually saying "missions". And then there's the fact that your long headline actually compares two programs that don't have a whole lot to do with eachother.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to refer this headline to SEC for being utter shiat. Sorry, man, but that's just company policy.
 
2007-01-18 02:33:51 PM
Shh! Pass it on - When Henry Ford first produced the model T automobile, it wasn't capable of going sixty miles per hour.



that would only be relevant if the model t was designed in response to some counterpart of the same sophistication. purple monkey dishwasher.
 
2007-01-18 02:37:23 PM
remus: Hitting an orbiting satellite with a ground launched interceptor isn't terribly difficult.

The US had this capability back when JFK was president. My dad worked on it.
 
2007-01-18 02:51:07 PM
The US had this capability back when JFK was president. My dad worked on it.

Iphtashu Fitz's dad would really get a kick out of these replies.
 
2007-01-18 02:55:19 PM
Don't click here

NASA is telling us just WHERE and WHEN the Satelites will be.
 
2007-01-18 03:15:47 PM
Iphtashu Fitz: The US had this capability back when JFK was president. My dad worked on it.

Yeah, but ours was launched from a plane in flight. That's more difficult than launching from a ground station. We did one successful test and packed the whole thing in after we made an anti-ASAT weapon promise with the Soviets to get some nuclear reduction/proliferation promises from them.
 
2007-01-18 03:19:57 PM
There is no way to reliably hit a bullet with a bullet, and besides we already have multiple warhead missiles enough to overwhelm any such defense. All of this combat oriented thinking is going in the wrong direction.
 
2007-01-18 03:23:51 PM
microsofth8r: NASA is telling us just WHERE and WHEN the Satelites will be

Meh, it's common knowledge. Any nation-state has the ability to track every satellite in orbit and know it's exact position at any given moment in time. It's not like they can hide from view. All you need is three track points to build a complete orbit.

The only way we can "surprise" anyone is to do an delta-v maneuver on a bird to change it's orbit. The new orbit will probably only be a "surprise" for a couple of revs at best before everyone that matters will have noticed it and replotted their orbit tracks (and notified everyone of it).

/// actually certified as a satellite ground ops controller
/// Have patches from 6 birds I have personally flown
/// Awesome group of people to work with
/// NASA came to us for help with one of their birds that was sick; we solved it and rescued it; the press gave NASA the credit
 
2007-01-18 03:29:04 PM
I've been told by what I think is a reliable source that under Gorbachev the USSR launched space based Anti Sat technology. Very low tech, very high reliability, small ball magnet based system. Really don't know if it's the truth or not. But I'd normally trust the source.
 
2007-01-18 03:38:32 PM
I am no rocket scientist, but it sounds like the way to defeat us in the time of war is to simply knock out all of our GPS satellites. You know the ones that guide our missiles?

I wonder if Washington has ever considered this a problem?
 
2007-01-18 03:41:53 PM
Shhh. Don't tell subby the Chinese and Russian technologists fake results just like American Star Wars contractors do.
 
2007-01-18 03:48:32 PM
It's all a one-upmanship game. Just like Reagan bankrupted the communists by making them try and keep up with his defense spending, or that's what some try to make us believe.
 
2007-01-18 03:52:20 PM
In 1983, after Soviet interceptor aircraft shot down the civilian airliner KAL 007 in restricted Soviet airspace, killing all 269 people on board, U.S. President Ronald Reagan announced that the GPS system would be made available for civilian uses once it was completed.

By January 17, 1994 a complete constellation of 24 satellites was in orbit.


We've had missiles that are internally guided since before 1994, so knocking out our GPS system would be bad, ( and they might already be considering this possibility - especially with recent news from China ) but wouldn't affect missiles today, unless they've changed every missile's navigation to work with GPS satellites exclusively.
 
2007-01-18 03:59:43 PM
sidmind: I am no rocket scientist, but it sounds like the way to defeat us in the time of war is to simply knock out all of our GPS satellites. You know the ones that guide our missiles?

I wonder if Washington has ever considered this a problem?


Yes.

Problem is, they (russia, china, et. al.) use it for their own navigation too, so it would hurt them also. Because of it's extensive commercial use, it would also impact world trade and the global economy quite a bit; that hurts everyone with the modern, connected global markets.

Also, we don't use GPS for our sole navigation/targeting method. While it would affect us, it definitely wouldn't stop us.
 
2007-01-18 04:18:52 PM
remus: Yes.

GPS is also pretty redundant. There's roughly 30 GPS sats in orbit at any one time, so that you can get line of sight on at least six from any point on earth. The satellites also make their own orbits around the earth, and in order to get GPS coordinates, you only need to be able to get three GPS satellite signals. And there are always backup GPS satellites ready to launch within a few hours if something goes wrong.
 
2007-01-18 04:30:14 PM
JessicaRaven: is it just me or does "kinetic kill vehicle" sound like some cool secret weapon in the next MGS game

It means "bullet".

the_gospel_of_thomas:

Where've you been for the last few months?
 
2007-01-18 04:33:37 PM
A kinetic kill vehicle is another name for a 12 gauge shot gun cartridge. It does not take much to take a fragile satellite out. My dad worked on some airforce satellite defense / attack systems in the late 80s and some them were pretty much shot gun shells.
 
2007-01-18 04:34:37 PM
The only practical way to be 100% sure you will stop a nuclear missile is to set off a nuke in its general vicinity, IMO.
 
2007-01-18 04:34:44 PM
Is a "mission" anything like a "brazillian"?
 
2007-01-18 04:34:56 PM
where is Russia mentioned in the article??? Am I illiterate or is it the subby?
 
2007-01-18 04:35:37 PM
Well, if they said they did it, we certainly have no reason to suspect that it's just not true. No sir. I suggest we immediately announce that we'll be first to Mars...
 
2007-01-18 04:35:49 PM
What the hell does this even mean?
 
2007-01-18 04:36:04 PM
Meh... wake me up when we start talking about linking our defense grids to a single computer controlled point.
 
2007-01-18 04:36:42 PM
Reagan just ends up looking better and better all the time.

I blame Bush.
 
2007-01-18 04:38:05 PM
Wasted millions? I heard that there was one that cost $20 billion and was shut down after being operational for just one day.
 
2007-01-18 04:38:44 PM
Neat!
 
2007-01-18 04:38:50 PM
YEAH! GREENLIGHT CRAP DAY TODAY!!!111!!1!

If the stupid admins weren't so giddy to try and start flame wars this would have never happened. Stupid Flanders.
 
2007-01-18 04:38:53 PM
Thank you, SherKhan. Always funny when the Boobies in the thread corrects a glaring error.

The Chinese are on a tear to develop the ability to destroy our satellites. They recently shot up a spy satellite with a high-powered ground-based laser as well, which is why the White House recently changed our national statement of space exploration goals to include the capability to destroy any hardware that threatens American orbital hardware. As for the Russians, they've had the capability to destroy satellites in orbit for decades, in the form of a hunter-killer satellite that was basically a giant shotgun shell. ...and in response we developed the ASAT missle which was fired from an F-15.

/yawn
 
2007-01-18 04:39:31 PM
China and Russia are developing space weapons and are among several nations working on systems to threaten U.S. satellites with lasers or missiles, says the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. January 17, 2007, THE WASHINGTON TIMES
 
2007-01-18 04:39:46 PM
anti-satellite is NOT the same as anti-ballistic missile.

submitter needs an education.
 
2007-01-18 04:40:13 PM
Is this like the chips orgy headline?
Or was Reagan secretly building Russian and Chinese defense programs the whole time?
 
2007-01-18 04:40:27 PM
Them damn Russkies!
img475.imageshack.us
 
2007-01-18 04:40:34 PM
bjforme
I've read Tom Clancy too.
 
2007-01-18 04:40:40 PM
Hah. I've got the html disabled on this thread, so all your 'clever' white text has no effect!

Advantage: me.
 
2007-01-18 04:42:01 PM
That's because these are corrupt Republican programs whose emphasis is not on producing results, but producing profitable contracts for political crony corporations.

The "program" is the goal. Not what the program is supposed to accomplish.

That's why Bushco considers Iraquagmire a success. To them, war isn't something to be won, because winning means that it's over. The mission being celebrated by Bush's "Mission Accomplished" photo-op was the beginning of conditions in which massive profiteering could begin. If the war ends, so also ends the GOP/Corporate gravy train.

That's why the upcoming democratic hearings will be very interesting. America is about to get an education on who America's REAL enemies are.
 
2007-01-18 04:42:28 PM
GPS guided weapons usually have a backup inertial guidance system that's just pretty accurate instead of insanely accurate. Cruise missiles use radar ground mapping instead of GPS, and plenty of US weapons are laser guided.

Is there any reason GPS transmitters have to be in space? Seems to me that you could mount them on the ground or in aircraft, if you don't mind the reduced range.
 
2007-01-18 04:43:45 PM
PC LOAD LETTER: The only practical way to be 100% sure you will stop a nuclear missile is to set off a nuke in its general vicinity, IMO.

Not even general - you have to be right on top of it. Set it off a mile off target, the delivery system may get damaged, but the warhead is hardened enough that it'd probably survive.

'course it all depends. Maybe NK and Iran will hold their warheads together with bubblegum and coathangers.
 
2007-01-18 04:44:49 PM
You can get you very own super-secret thread decoder on the back of specially marked boxes of Cap'n Crunch.
 
2007-01-18 04:45:09 PM
Remember Reagan's anti missile defense program that would never work and wased millions of dollars? Well, William Tell shot an apple off his son's head with a single shot from an arrow!

/almost as bad a comparison as the one in the headline
 
2007-01-18 04:45:33 PM
remus: That's not the Reagan anti-missile program. Hitting an orbiting satellite with a ground launched interceptor isn't terribly difficult. The orbit is known to the nth degree and does not vary by more than a tiny fraction per orbit. That gives them the ability to lock in the flight plan with extreme precision before launch. The Reagan "star-wars" plan was to hit incoming ICBM missiles. That is several orders of magnitude more difficult; requiring advanced tracking to aquire the incoming missiles, determine their precise trajectory, plot an intercept course, launch the interceptor, receive mid-course telemetry, make corrections, and achieve interception. That's a hell of a lot more difficult than just hitting an orbiting satellite with a very well defined orbit. Also, the star-wars interceptor needs to be able to do all that in real-time with only minutes to make calculations before launching. The chinese test could have been planned for months and checked/rechecked a hundred times before launch.

Sooooooooooo youre saying submitter is an idiot?
 
2007-01-18 04:45:39 PM
choice and consequence

Is there any reason GPS transmitters have to be in space? Seems to me that you could mount them on the ground

We've had that for years. It's called LORAN.
 
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