BlindMan

The thesis here being that unions in general only make products more expensive, it takes specifically american unions to make products shiat?

As I posted before, there are 273,000 Japanese union members working at Toyota alone who would probably more or less agree with that thesis.

koniver: To add to that, do you think Ford cares that a Toyota is made in the USA when their sales are tanking? Is the whole buy American thing really include a Honda or Subaru? The whole point is at the end of the day it is a foreign company that is getting your money.

I don't think "Ford" can care about anything not being a human being and all. I think the people that have jobs building those cars and getting paid from the money you spend might care.

RainbeauxSue: This many replies and two other people realized that he ordered the Lexus before being offered the position at Ford, and then cancelled it upon accepting.

Reading is not a farkers strong point

Bloginspanken

Boomhauer: The Volvo eats brakes like there's no tomorrow, goes through bulbs quickly because the daytime running lights run ALL the lights (front, side, and rear), and so on.

The car makes light bulbs burn out?

This can definitely happen as my car eats the things for farking breakfast. Why or how this happens I have no idea.

Incidentally Mercedes cars have become shiat for reliability recently - curiously they still hold their resale value extremely well (possibly excepting the execrable M class). So as long as you don't mind dealing with warranty stuff and sell before it runs out, you're golden.

Frankly it doesn't make a lot of sense. But idiots I know extremely extremely well still buy them religiously. Damn things just feel right. I guess it's comparable to why somebody buys an old american muscle car... you know it's rubbish, but it's rubbish you LIKE.

Bloginspanken: The car makes light bulbs burn out?

Yes, actually, because I cannot turn them off. So I'm in the middle of the bright sunlight, with no only my headlights, but my tail lights and those difficult-to-change side-marker lamps, all burning away.

I'm all for daytime running lights, but wiring the switch so that "off" and "on" do the same thing (no joke!) is a totally half-assed way to do it. The only thing I can turn off is the actual headlamps, by turning the switch to the parking lamp position. All the other bulbs continue to burn, regardless of switch position, when the key is on.

It's a stupid, stupid design.

Bloginspanken:

Canadians are so cute trying to bash. I guess it's that being completely dependent on another country for defense and economy that makes them desperate for something to feel superior about.

I'm not from Canada. The "we" referred to in the last paragraph was the United States, i.e. the country in which I was born and have lived all my life.

Reading comprehension FTW.

Bloginspanken

Thank you for the lesson in semantics.

Bad quote by Mulally as it will certainly be taken out of context. The "finest machine" refers to the manufacturing process and management system, not the actual automobiles they produce.

Yes, the Lexuses (Lexii?)are great cars, but even before I was a Ford salesman, I wasn't impressed enough to consider owning one. I drove a loaded RX330 from Detroit to the upper peninsula of Marquette, MI (~8 hours). Tried out all the bells and whistles, but found most of them to be just too far over the top and not worth the extra expense incurred by the owner.

A lot of details on luxury cars are absurdly not needed and not really useful (i.e. Rain Sensing Wipers.. hooray for saving the time and effort of twisting a knob!)

Ford does have good products. As I've said before in similar threads, the old 70's through 2000 Ford's (when new) were no where near as good as the current Ford line up. I have no personal issues with selling people a current Ford product, I don't think that them buying a Honda or Toyota are a better buy anymore for the needs they have. If I really thought so, I'd try to work at our Honda store.

I really hope Mulally can change the public's perception of Ford in the next few years. The products are ready, now we just need to get the people ready.

Ford lost $7 billion during the first three quarters of 2006 and is in the midst of a major restructuring plan to shrink its factory capacity to match lower consumer demand.

So the CEO's solution is to affirm that Toyota builds a better product and they are working on improving the line-up?

Rather than giving him a pity sale, I'd send him a big "Fark-You" and buy the better product.

The Ford Excursion is a wonderful example. $50 LARGE for a pretty good truck that might be "worth" $10K when you sell it in six years. Compare that with the Toyota Land Cruiser which is a Lexus 470 (I think) with less exotic wood.

The comparison is that there is NO comparison. Granted Ford has rebates, but you still make out better with the Toyota/Lexus. The Ford isn't even in the same category.

Axiomatic - This.... from a company that sells cars that the only way to make the air recirculate inside the car (versus mixing in outside air) is to put the controls to "Max AC".

// I drive an '06 Infiniti G35 Coupe now and vow to never buy an American car again EVER!

So you're never going to buy an American car again because you don't like the terminology they use on the climate control? Ooooo-kay...

FYI, "max AC" is just another (admittedly rather confusing) term for "recirculate". That's all it does. The only reason it's desirable is to the A/C can cool down already-chilled air. Otherwise, why would you want it to blow the stale interior air around?

That is the sound of Ford marketing reps hitting their palms against their foreheads...

too bad it isn't the sound of Ford marketing reps jumping off 20 story buildings.

koniver

By your logic you would support buying from a company incorporated in the US, but entirely owned by foreign investors and all the profits sent overseas,

but not a company that was incorporated in Japan, but owned entirely by American investers and all the profits going to the US?

ElFugawz: - he chose the Lexus despite that
/wrong if he is CEO of just the ford division

1) He was looking at Lexus while still working at Boeing.
2) He's the new CEO of Ford Motor Company.

Boomhauer: I'm all for daytime running lights, but wiring the switch so that "off" and "on" do the same thing (no joke!) is a totally half-assed way to do it. The only thing I can turn off is the actual headlamps, by turning the switch to the parking lamp position. All the other bulbs continue to burn, regardless of switch position, when the key is on.

I'm not. I can't stand DRLs. That is pretty lame it turns them all on. Are you sure wasn't something messed up like a shorted connector?

akula

Just ignore me and my snark, my idea of exciting and ergonomic controls/gauges have look rather like this:



/and yes, I prefer Japanese rather than American in that department

koniver
Yes I am aware that there are no true American or foreign cars. If you buy a Toyota, even if it is 100% made in America, you are still buying from a Japenese company.

Good for you. However, buying a Toyota made in America doesn't contribute to a negative trade balance, which is what you were whining about.

Besides, what makes Toyota (or any other global company) Japanese? The fact that it's traded on Nikkei rather than NYSE? If you want to, you can buy shares of Toyota on the stock market. Would that part of Toyota you own be an American company now?

/Jingoism, xenophobia, and ignorance are bad...

Leonard Washington

By your logic all the profits of a company go to its shareholders.

I learned alot about Japanese JIT manufacturing and the high level of quality they have while in college. Good things to mimic if you're an American CEO of the second best brand, but just don't mimic the design. If you're 6' or taller, nearing 200lbs like me, Jap cars just feel too small. I like big trunks for luggage and lots of leg and head room. Plus, has anyone noticed how crappy foreign cars (excluding exotics) have been looking lately. New BMW designs anyone? No thanks. And the only thing I like about new Mercedes is the paint. Give me a new Cadillac car or Chevy truck.

koniver

Is there someone else profits go to?

Boomhauer: ...I cannot turn them off. So I'm in the middle of the bright sunlight, with no only my headlights, but my tail lights and those difficult-to-change side-marker lamps, all burning away.

My crap Matrix also came equipped with daytime running lights (not to the extent of your Volvo) that were a constant source of annoyance.

After researching a few Matrix discussion boards, I learned how to simply disconnect and ground one wire to disable this feature. It took a good hour or two (I suck at all things automotive in nature), but when all was said and done, I was left with a car that behaved the way I wanted it to behave.

A word of warning, though: futzing around with your car's electrics in this way is mildly dangerous, and will possibly void your warranty.

Maybe in the form of dividends but if you own a share of a company and they make a lot of money, you do not get that share. In fact, a lot of companies have made huge profits and then the share tanks and the shareholder loses money because expectations were not met.

Profits are used for many many things.

a-snap
American brands, on average, are about even with the European brands (in North America).

I'm not convinced of that. Reliability ratings are typically based on the average number of problems a specific model has over a certain period of time. But that's really a very poor way to do it. After all, an piece of interior trim coming off is a bit less serious than a water pump failing or a transmission blowing up, but I believe all 3 problems are counted as "problems" - they're treated equally. So I'm not sure I'd believe those reliability/quality ratings.

I live in metro Detroit, and I've had it with the whole American auto industry myself. Two things that fark me off the most:

1) Criminally dishonest advertising. Every car ad in the Detroit market lists absurdly low monthly payments, with an asterisk* indicating that the price only applies if you're friends with or related to an employee. You want to know the actual price for un-connected slobs like yourself? You have to come in, sit down in a cubicle with an idiot for 2 hours, submit to a credit check, etc. I ran through this nonsense with a salestard when looking at a Chrysler last year, and the price he finally came up with me was more than 3X the advertised price. When I complained about their BS pricing, the a-hole tried to defend himself by showing me a stack of invoices on cars he'd sold super-cheap that month to employees: "This guy got one, loaded, for $162 a month" and "This guy got a pair of them for $158 each!" Gosh Mr Car Salesman, I wonder how you can afford to practically give cars away to employees? Oh, that's right. By gouging the rest of us. No sale.

2) The "Real Americans Buy American" nonsense. No one but satin-jacketed union stooges believe this anymore, so why keep bellowing it at us? If I have X thousand dollars to spend on a car, I'm going to buy the best one I can, based on quality. I'm not going to be swayed by phony Americana-soaked ads with Bob Seger wailing and groaning away in the background. My living is 100% commission-based, and if you choose to use someone other than me it effectively costs me thousands of dollars. And I respect your right as a consumer to make that choice. So where do you get off waving a godd@mn flag in my face just because the product your company makes isn't good enough to compete without resorting to jingoism and bait & switch pricing?

Germany has largely priced itself out of the international economy with it's labor policies and costs

Wait, what?

Germany has been #1 in total exports for the past four years. People want the products they sell at the price they are selling them for.

http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/germany_s_trade_buddies

Germany is also the world leader in mechanical engineering, holding about 20% of this global market. Core German exports include such engineering products as vehicles, machinery, chemical goods, electronics, shipbuilding and optics. The "land of ideas" is also among the world's largest and most technologically advanced producers of iron, steel, coal, cement, food and beverages and textiles. In recent years, traditional German industries like steel-making and textiles have shrunk considerably.

I admit I was worried for a second, you were starting to get rational in the middle of this thread, but I am glad the old Blindman resurfaced again.

Bloginspanken - There is no statistical evidence that shows any head gasket problems from Ford over other manufacturers. Science sucks when you're trying to be self hating.

I'd *love* to see your "statistical evidence" regarding the 2.9 and 3.8 V6 engines. Those are absolute garbage. The only worse engine I can think of is the Cadillac HT4100.

And before you go spouting about me being a Ford hater: Every car I've owned has been a Ford product. I absolutely love my DOHC 4.6. It's efficient (29 mpg hwy, according to the trip computer), torquey, loves to rev, sounds great, and has been extremely reliable.

Ford seems to make products that are either really good, or really bad. There's no middle ground.

gnoto

Please explain to me how buying a foreign car, with the profits going to foreign company and not buying an American car where the profits are going to an American compnay is not going to affect the trade deficit in a negative way?

Personally I own a foreign car so I don't get the jingoistic xenophobic claims you make, but whatever makes you sleep at night.

re: $50 LARGE for a pretty good truck that might be "worth" $10K when you sell it in six years.

$50 large means diesel.

try $18-20 large after 6 years.

they go for that all day around my area.

re: but you still make out better with the Toyota/Lexus. The Ford isn't even in the same category.

So you're comparing a diesel excursion to a jap girly car that couldn't tow anything more than a jet ski??

Makes sense.

I don't think its the american union workers that ruin the car. I think its the yuppie scum who designed it. These people are people who are sons and friends of the company bosses, who completed art colleage by paying a poor kid to do their homework.

Or that is atleast my theory anyway.

I bellive you get farther in the american auto industry with contacts and a bloodline than with a good CV.

People seem to pay more attention to the brand than actually where it's coming from anyway.
My Dodge Stealth was 95% built in Japan, while my BMW Z3 was built in South Carolina (which I really enjoyed pointing out to the pro-Ford/GM/Chrysler folk).

mindbuzz

I've had an IS350 sport for about 8 months. I can't tell you about the motor, since it's different, but the car is really nice. Everybody comments on how nice the interior is as soon as they sit down. I've always preferred Japanese leather seats to German -- much more comfy, as they seem to use much softer leather, and the IS is no different in this regard.

My only complaint is that you can't get the 350 in a stick. Which is too bad, since even as an auto it's a mid-13s car...

koniver

I think anywhere else a profit goes is called an expense (and not a profit). You've already said you don't care if the expenses are towards say new plants in the US, you only care that a company is incorporated in Japan.

^^ or capital expenditure, still does the same thing.

PAPASandBEER: If you're 6' or taller, nearing 200lbs like me, Jap cars just feel too small.

Certainly true of some models, but not all. I'm 6'4", and well over 200#, and have to try out each model, each year no matter what the brand. Auto shows are good for that. Both my current cars are Japanese brands, and very comfortable.

gnoto: but I believe all 3 problems are counted as "problems" - they're treated equally. So I'm not sure I'd believe those reliability/quality ratings.

Not true for the Consumer Reports ratings. Their survey/results identifies a number of subsystems so that trim falling off is not the same as electrical problems.

Boomhauer

The latest money spent: It started making a loud exhaust noise, so we took it in. Turns out that the junction between the engine and the exhaust pipe is done with a shroud made of flexible metal mesh, which doesn't do too well when you're shooting hot, acidic exhaust through it. $850 later, the car's quiet again.

The flexible metal mesh thing is on almost every front wheel drive car. It is there to isolate the motion of the engine from the exhaust pipe -- engines do move on their mounts due to torque when accelerating. Without this, the exhaust pipes would eventually crack. It also protects the exhaust manifold in case the pipe is struck, since it allows the exhaust system to move independently.

2006 Corolla: 41.3" front leg room
2006 Camry: 41.6"
2006 Cadillac SRX: 42.1"
2006 Cadillac CTS: 42.4"
2006 Lexus RX400: 42.5"
2006 Lancer: 43.2"
2006 Lexus SC430: 43.6"

2006 F150: 41.3"
Same as the Corolla.

Rearden
Every car I've owned has been a Ford product. I absolutely love my DOHC 4.6. It's efficient (29 mpg hwy, according to the trip computer), torquey, loves to rev, sounds great, and has been extremely reliable.

Which car do you have it in? Lincoln Mark VIII, Lincoln Continental, Mercury Marader, Ford Mustang?

Just curious, my best milage with my Mark VIII is about 26-27 mpg highway

FORD = Fix It Again Tony

/gribble

Mulally called Toyota "the finest machine in the world, the finest production system in the world. So we went to study with the master. I really wanted to connect with each of the manufacturers in the industry and to do it quickly," said Mulally, who was hired away from aircraft maker Boeing Co. by Ford Motor Co.

Sounds like a smart man. Back in the fifties Japanese car executives came to Detroit to learn. Glad Mulally has realized it's time for a reverse pilgrimage.

Here is an article off of Bloomberg and yes I know it is not the most recent article, but you will notice that they talk about imports and foreign cars. The whole point is that the trade deficit is figured on the finished product being sold regardless of where it is made. So again buying a foreign car negatively affects the trade deficit.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aE4mmcb6UkO4&refer=home

1) Ford owns, or has a majority share of: Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Volvo, Mazda. So yes, they do have luxury vehicles.

2) Mullaly cancelled his order for the Lexus before accepting the offer from Ford. He didn't actually purchase the car as the subby states.

3) Mullaly was referring to how highly he thinks of the Toyota work effort when he stated the part about "the finest machine in the world..."

4) According to the Consumer Reports recommended buy list, Ford came in #2 overall with 22 recommended buys, behind Toyota who had 31. Next up was GM, with 16. And then there's Chrysler...with 6 but we won't talk about them. linky. So while, yes, Ford has been in the gutter of buyer's perception for a while, results speak for themselves here.

/tired of the Big Three bashing
//slashies make me smart...or something

gnoto: I'm not convinced of that. Reliability ratings are typically based on the average number of problems a specific model has over a certain period of time. But that's really a very poor way to do it. After all, an piece of interior trim coming off is a bit less serious than a water pump failing or a transmission blowing up, but I believe all 3 problems are counted as "problems" - they're treated equally. So I'm not sure I'd believe those reliability/quality ratings.

That's the initial quality rating. They take the number of things that caused the car to be brought back to the dealer inside the first 90 days. I find that generally useless. The good number is the five year maintenance statistics, but of course you have to wait five years for that. They also do the "estimated reliability" which is a guess the magazine editors make.

Cubicle Jockey

That really doesn't say anything different. German goods are known for being high quality because the high end market is the only one germany can compete in... because their labor costs (and general costs of doing business) are so high. Which is my whole point.

You can export as much expensive shiat as you want, but somehow this trade doesn't result in prosperity, which in fact it doesn't. In large part because regular germans can't all have or make S Class cars and Bang & Olufsen stereos. What's remarkable here is that the german economy underperforms so consistently DESPITE this bustling trade in luxury goods.

They are nonetheless priced out of the economy, and their startling lack of GDP growth confirms this. Countries like China are putting up amazing growth numbers year after year for exactly the opposite reason.

Again, you simply cannot compete globally with this cost structure and only competing in high end markets and germany is the foremost example of this.

Funny.

This story is only 3 months old. And he bought the Lexus while he was CEO of Boeing, not Ford. And at the press conference announcing that he was taking over the Ford CEO spot from Bill Ford, they even cracked a joke about it. Right before they gave him the Lincoln that he drives now.

Subby = Ric Romero.

Rigby-Reardon - Which car do you have it in? Lincoln Mark VIII, Lincoln Continental, Mercury Marader, Ford Mustang?

Just curious, my best milage with my Mark VIII is about 26-27 mpg highway

'95 Mark VIII. It regularly gets 29, provided that I use the cruise control and keep it at or below 70. Over 70, it gets the same mileage as yours. Which is still quite impressive for a 12 year old 280hp tank. :)

four95: umm FTFA: "...but that he canceled his order for a Lexus after taking the top job at the U.S. automaker."

"2007-01-04 01:39:31 PM I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros

PAPASandBEER: If you're 6' or taller, nearing 200lbs like me, Jap cars just feel too small.

Damn straight. My ex-fiancee and I bought an Accord together; great car, but I couldn't see shiat out of it.

I've got a Lancer now, and it's a great tall-guy car: I'm 6'4", and I've got a good 2 or 3 inches of headroom and great visibility. So far, so good in the reliability department, too--just went over 68,000 miles, and only one non-scheduled repair, for about $500."

Um...isn't a Lancer made by Mitsubishi?

This "Japanese cars don't have any headroom" stereotype is really BS at this point. Some cars (Japanese or otherwise) have plenty of headroom; some don't.

Now, in terms of reliability, there are two classes: Honda and Toyota (and Acura/Lexus/Scion), and then there's everybody else (including the minor Japanese makes such as Mitsubishi). Subaru is close to Honda/Toyota, but not quite, and there's some evidence that some of the American luxury makes such as Cadillac are doing pretty well too (but the more pedestrian makes such as Chevrolet are still in the toliet). All the Europeans have poor reliability. Nissan does too, mainly because thier newish plant in Mississippi is a disaster.

FarkingZionist
The only dealer who ever gave 100% good service was Volvo. I had an S70. It was equally reliable to a Japanese car.

Loved our Volvo dealer. Loved our S70. Except when it broke down, which was pretty much many times. I never drove a more solid, safe car (nor sat in more comfortable seats!), but after 50k it needed close to $10k of work (A/C, ABS, various sensors....). Sadly, we took a bath and traded it in on a Toyota. It just wasn't worth the worry to my wife or I.

Glad your experience has been better than ours. I've heard from numerous people about the great reliability of Volvos (mostly RWD, though).....I wish we were one of them.

I'm hoping for big things from Mulally...because it's do or die for Ford, and I hope they're not too far gone.

My father works at a Ford dealer...sorry, no cliche for you.

Seriously though, he's worked there the whole time I've been alive (in parts, not sales). Gotten both of my cars from that place. First was a POS 91 Escort LX that had no pick-up (took about two seconds for it to accelerate, and only when I floored it), and the second was my current baby, a 1994 Cutlass Ciera that was rotting on the lot with less than 60k on it.

I love the Hell out of my Cutlass, and it's a damn shame that Oldsmobile isn't around anymore, they're good cars.

/the car was made in Texas.

Travis McGee: A word of warning, though: futzing around with your car's electrics in this way is mildly dangerous, and will possibly void your warranty.

I do a lot futzing and it's illegal for them to void your warranty because of it. That prevents dealers for coercing people into using their service department. The warranty still won't cover stuff you broke, so if you mess something up, you have to make it look like it broke on its own.