Observatory: The case will go to trial. Nifong will get convictions. The $$$$$$ parents will appeal and it will be locked up in appeals for years and years to come. In the end, Nifong will prevail. Justice will prevail.

You are either highly gifted at trolling, or a complete idiot.

And since I've seen you spouting the same stuff in the Duke Lacrosse threads before, I'll have to go with the latter...

Finnley Wren takes offense and believes words make people commit acts of violence. fact.

pendy575: You are an idiot.

I think my job is done here.

Finnley Wren: This is why their are specific laws against gay bashing.

Hate Crime laws are 'thought-crime' laws and should be unconstitutional.

Finnley Wren: I think my job is done here.

You were trying to convince people that you are an idiot? I thought just participating on Fark did that.

Hmmm, thought this thread was about spurilous charges by a stripper. The gay-bashing thread is a few links down the list.

Hate crimes are the dumbest shiat ever. Punish the crime. Period.

If a guy kills someone (or does any crime against a person) because he's a certain race, color, religion, sexual orientation...what is the difference if the person did the crime "just cuz"?

They're still dead, robbed, raped...whatever. Punish the crime.

Nobody You Know: Hmmm, thought this thread was about spurilous charges by a stripper.

You're right, Nobody. Didn't mean to threadjack. Carry on.

Observatory

Thanks for totally ignoring the entire thread stating these guys were innocent and just presuming theyre guilty because theyre three rich white jocks. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? These guys were proven innocent and are still being considered guilty!

I know! Lets just organise a march, or even a lynch mob! Justice will surely be served! Theyre rich, white, and jocks, they must be guilty! Never mind the lack of evidence or the lack of credibility by the plaintiff!

This justice system thing really needs to be explained to people more.

The hooker and the prosecuter should both be put in jail for a long long time. With the end result of their both eventually practicing the same profession.

As others have noted, "fag" is a pretty useful (if you're a jerk) and common random insult. It's not something specific, like "you farked Bill Clinton in 1986 at a Motel 6, and Hillary worked you over with the dildo".

Finnley Wren:Extrapolating your logic, it is by mere coincidence that lynching's only happened to black people. Think about it.

Only black people, huh?
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
There are "2805 [documented] victims of lynch mobs killed between 1882 and 1930 in ten southern states. Although mobs murdered almost 300 white men and women, the vast majority (almost 2,500) of lynch victims were African-American.

Generalize much? And I humbly submit that lynching isn't quite as directly comparable to a drunken bar fight as you make it sound.

Finnley Wren

Lighten up Francis
words is just words

Finnley Wren: Amazing that none of us can EVER use the "N" word ever again, and yet this other equally destructive word continues to be tolerated. This is why their are specific laws against gay bashing.

None of us? I beg to differ. I feel that it's either ok to use no epithets, or all of them. So since 'fag' is still ok, I continue to use 'neggar'. Fair is fair.

I've personally smoked fags.

Damnbiker:

That is an excellent question: Will the 88 professors that condemned the innocent players apologize? Buy why are you asking us? Why not ask the professors themselves?

Here is a link to Duke's faculty web page. Simply type the name of any of those professors into the search window, and you'll get their faculty page and e-mail address.

http://www.duke.edu/faculty.html

Perhaps these self-appointed bastions of morality and equality need to be persuaded that they in fact are fallible and can make mistakes. Perhaps they will remember this before they scapegoat another individual who they feel is the personification of their social injustice de jour, even if that individual has done nothing wrong and his or her life is being ruined in the process.

The professors thought a march against the lacrosse players would bring about change. Perhaps 10,000 e-mails in their in-boxes will do some real good.

I think I'll start with Houston Baker, Head of their English Department, for this gem:

"There can be no confidence in an administration that believes suspending a lacrosse season and removing pictures of Duke lacrosse players from a web page is a dutifully moral response to abhorrent sexual assault, verbal racial violence, and drunken white male privilege loosed amongst us.

How many mandates concerning safe, responsible campus citizenship must be transgressed by white athletes' violent racism before our university's offices of administration, athletics, security, and publicity courageously declare: enough!

How many more people of color must fall victim to violent, white, male, athletic privilege before coaches who make Chevrolet and American Express commercials, athletic directors who engage in Miss Ophelia-styled "perfectly horrible" rhetoric, higher administrators who are salaried at least in part to keep us safe, and publicists who are supposed not to praise Caesar but to damn the unconscionable ... how many?"

TryinToThink: And since I've seen you spouting the same stuff in the Duke Lacrosse threads before, I'll have to go with the latter

I have never raised Finnerty's prior arrest in any previous Duke Lacrosse thread. It just struck me today the dichotomy that Duke will not tolerate an accused rapist on campus but has no problem with an accused assaultererer.

Now, back to the strippers . . .

Finnley Wren: You are either kidding or you are scum.

Or it's just for shiats and giggles.

Observatory: The case will go to trial. Nifong will get convictions. The $$$$$$ parents will appeal and it will be locked up in appeals for years and years to come. In the end, Nifong will prevail. Justice will prevail.

For someone with the handle OBSERVATORY, you have your head really far up your ass.

If I were one of those students, I would tell Duke to go to hell. There's no evidence against the accused men. The woman who accused them has told at least a dozen different versions of her story. Nifong witheld DNA evidence that's in favor of the accused. None of their DNA was found in the woman or in her underwear. The DNA of other men was found in her and in her underwear.

Finnerty and Seiligman = douche bags

stripper = lying whore

DA = incompetent

Nothing good came from all this, and it's almost (thankfully) over.

Let's all make a vow to start not giving a shiat about this.

Sgt Otter
pearls before swine: Throwing illegal on campus under-age-drinking stripperfests is OK for Duke athletes, I guess. Who would have guessed they had no behavioral standards.

Let me guess, you were the kid who wrote down everybody's name who talked when the teacher was out of the room.

Let me guess, you were the kid in the back room at those parties, raping the passed out drunk 18 year old girl.

No? Well, you're wrong, too.

I'm not saying that throwing the party means they committed a rape, and I'm not saying college students don't act like this.

I'm saying that most athletic departments would punish, perhaps suspend or discharge student-athletes who threw a party like that on campus, even if there were no rape charges. This isn't an issue of whether this happens, it's whether Duke should do anything about such behavior, on campus, among kids who Duke is paying to feed, house, and educate, and who go out in the world representing Duke in intercollegate competition.

If these were basketball players, is there any question that would be kicked off the team, simply for the party?

Finnley Wren: vanity: I use the N-word all the time. I'm bringin it back.

You are either kidding or you are scum.

Somebody needs to rent Clerks II.

And that prosecutor should be disbarred. You should not file charges until you are certain a crime has likely been committed. If it's 50/50 - fine, let a jury sort it out. If it's 10/90 - well, we don't get to try every case just for shiats and giggles in this country.

If this woman had come out with a consistent story, stuck by it, and refused to back down I could see going forward. As it is, he had:

1) No evidence
2) No consistent statement from the "victim"
3) A second witness who could not back up the story of the victim
4) Strong political motivation to go forward with the case.

It's pretty weak, in retrospect.

pearls before swine: I'm saying that most athletic departments would punish, perhaps suspend or discharge student-athletes who threw a party like that on campus, even if there were no rape charges

It wasn't on campus.

Finnley Wren:

I was talking about Observatory, not you.

TryinToThink:

Sorry, TTT. I was under seige . . .

Just remember - false accusations can lead to results that are much worse than being raped.

pearls before swine: I'm saying that most athletic departments would punish, perhaps suspend or discharge student-athletes who threw a party like that on campus,

I think if their was evidence of underage drinking, and the there were charges brought up, these kids would've been punished/suspended. Although, it's not a violation of NCAA rules, so you can sneak around it.

At the University of Minnesota last year, many underage players on the hockey team were caught by hidden cameras drinking at a bar, and were all punished.

And no, I don't think players on the basketball team would be kicked off. It's their biggest sports-moneymaker.

When you use terms like "gay bashing" it brings to mind someone pummeling the ever living daylights out of someone. I found this little nugget from this article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12467091

Finnerty and two friends are accused of punching a man after he told them to "stop calling him gay and other derogatory names," according to court documents.

Although I have followed the Duke Hoax rather closely, I didn't read much about this assault charge. If I punch someone once, he can charge me with assault. If I call him gay while punching him once, I could be charged with assault and "gay bashing". (I guess?)

I don't know to what extent this guy (who has said he's straight) was hit by either of these guys, but to compare a bar fight to rape? As if they are comparable? Nice one Finnley Wren. At least that's what I took from your 2007-01-03 04:36:05 PM post.

MoeSzyslak
Lighten up Francis
words is just words

Until you string words together and form an 'idea' or a 'message' then when combined with the context of an event...words magically become 'motive' or 'disposition' or an 'aggrevating factor'.

At the University of Minnesota last year, many underage players on the hockey team were caught by hidden cameras drinking at a bar, and were all punished.

Many, many years ago when I lived near Minneapolis, the police caught a lot of country hick underage hockey players in porno movie theaters during the state hockey championship tournement.

Solution: Police chief told force not to check porno movie theaters for underage patrons during future hockey championships.

- Caipora

asmodeus224

MoeSzyslak
Lighten up Francis
words is just words

Until you string words together and form an 'idea' or a 'message' then when combined with the context of an event...words magically become 'motive' or 'disposition' or an 'aggrevating factor'.

'aggrevating' factor indeed.

So it's terrible if you kill someone because you want to kill gays, but it's cool if you kill someone because you want to kill all people in general.

Double plus ungood, I'd say.

Observatory

"The case will go to trial. Nifong will get convictions. The $$$$$$ parents will appeal and it will be locked up in appeals for years and years to come. In the end, Nifong will prevail. Justice will prevail."

You are such a broken record. If you'd turn off your "I hate rich white folks" blinders for a second you'd realize that Nifong will likely be off the case because of his egregious violations of State Ethics Rules.

Yeah, you don't care: here are some $$$$$$$ for you.

caipora: Solution: Police chief told force not to check porno movie theaters for underage patrons during future hockey championships.

A very good use of discretion in Minnesota. Probably a step up from the pictures of farm animals those boys from Warroad and Roseau had been fapping to.

kevindmorgan
Hate crimes are the dumbest shiat ever. Punish the crime. Period.

If a guy kills someone (or does any crime against a person) because he's a certain race, color, religion, sexual orientation...what is the difference if the person did the crime "just cuz"?

They're still dead, robbed, raped...whatever. Punish the crime.

but the law has for centuries treated the same act differently, if committed with different intent.

Shoot someone to death in a hunting accident- possibly no crime at all, negligent homicide at most. Shoot him when you find him screwing your wife? Manslaughter (or murder). Shoot him when you heard he was screwing your wife, and you go find him? Second-degree murder. Shoot him when you hope to inherit his money after killing him? First-degree murder.

CrotchBeard

Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, do your homework. First, it's SELIGMAN. Second, by all accounts Reade is an upstanding guy who any parent would be most proud of. For a list of references, check this petition (pops) of support for him.

/can't vouch for Finnerty, but I hear that some of the claims of his homophobia are not founded
//we all better give a shiat about this or we could end up being assraped by the justice system in the same way

Collin Finnerty = Kevin Finnerty = Tony Soprano = untouchable

Anyone else think of Tony Soprano with the name Finnerty?
/gets me everytime

Finnley Wren

Someday when you come out of your mom's basement, you'll meet the cruel hard real world, where some people are giant assholes. Merely bumping into these people, and not showing what they see as proper "respect" will cause them to completely lose their temper at you, and if they're intoxicated or otherwise inclined, quite likely escalate the situation into kicking your ass.

Now if said guy calls you a fag, does that make it gay bashing, or does that make it a drunk asshole hurling fists and insults? Should a drunk asshole be charged with hate crime?

Your black and white fantasy world must be nice, but don't ever come into our real world, you won't like it one bit.

BlindMan
'aggrevating' factor indeed.

So it's terrible if you kill someone because you want to kill gays, but it's cool if you kill someone because you want to kill all people in general.

Double plus ungood, I'd say.

I rebutted the 'words are words' argument. Words themselves *are* just words, but assembled they form ideas and thoughts which can be dangerous or beneficial - depending on the message contained in the words. Words so assembled can show intent and mindset which can be aggravating or mitigating factors in crimes.

Your reference to 1984 was double plus ungood actually - 'newspeak' was a government creation to control words and thus thought (further strengthening my argument regarding the power of words which was my original point) - trying to compare the systemic purging of meaning from words via language manipulation to the use of bias as an aggravating factor to narrowly defined crimes doesn't really work...even though that wasn't what I was replying to in the first place.

I never said anything you attributed to me - that I support killing in general so long as the victims aren't gay?? You fail at reading comprehension - but u sure kan spelle gud. Keep correcting spelling and grammar while ignoring content...

Finnley Wren
It wasn't on campus.

I though it was, but was the team party just at a player's Duke funded off-campus apartment? My bad. Totally different story, then . . .

TryinToThink
And no, I don't think players on the basketball team would be kicked off. It's their biggest sports-moneymaker.

You really think Coach K would have these let's-kill-and-skin-some-strippers scumbags play for him?

Again, I'm not saying these guys raped anyone. I just think it's a little unusual that they're being reinstated and portrayed as nice guys who deserve to be treated like innocent victims who did nothing wrong.

Maybe Duke is trying to make up for overreacting to the rape allegations by ignoring the general abhorent behavior these guys demonstrated at the team party, and afterwards.

mama's_tasty_foods

Well your state may be different than mine, but the law generally defines those as different acts, and where it is a required element of a crime, defines intent as the mental desire and will to commit the act.

For that matter, intent is not a necessary element of even voluntary manslaughter.

caipora: Solution: Police chief told force not to check porno movie theaters for underage patrons during future hockey championships.

Source? Cuz I ain't buying it.

pearls before swine: You really think Coach K would have these let's-kill-and-skin-some-strippers scumbags play for him?

You didn't ask that. You asked if whether or not I thought Coach K would kick players off his team for having a party with strippers and underage drinking. They may get suspended for poor judgement, but not thrown off the team.

And the kid that sent that email was also kicked off the team and out of school, and his only 'crime' was sending that email.

mama's_tasty_foods

You're talking about different acts, not crimes. I said punish the crime, not punish the act. It's not the same thing.

*ahem* fark duke

Leonard Washington
Well your state may be different than mine, but the law generally defines those as different acts, and where it is a required element of a crime, defines intent as the mental desire and will to commit the act.

the LAW may call them different acts- but the underlying facts (pointing a gun at someone and shooting) are precisely the same. Only the intent of the shooter differs.

Hopefully you can see the irony in your reliance on a legal formalism ("the law defines these as different acts"). Well if that's all that it takes, don't hate crime laws define the hate crime (i.e. an assaultive action plus hate-motivated intent) as a "different act?"

For that matter, intent is not a necessary element of even voluntary manslaughter.

This depends entirely on your state's law. I am thinking of Louisiana which does not have a separate crime of "voluntary manslaughter"-- one of the means of committing manslaughter is to commit a killing that WOULD BE murder, but the offender acts under a provocation that would cause a reasonable person to lose their cool. The classic example of such a crime is walking in on some dude boning your wife. All the elements of murder are there, but the offender is acting under a provocation. so in fact to convict, the jury WOULD have to find you had the requisite intent (in Louisiana, that would be "specific intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm") but acted under some provocation.

kevindmorgan
You're talking about different acts, not crimes. I said punish the crime, not punish the act. It's not the same thing.

Option A: you shoot and kill me after your wife tells you I screwed her. You want revenge.

Option B: you shoot and kill me because you are related to me and will inherit my money.

What is the difference between those two acts?

Get back to your strippers and keg parties boys. Well done, lads!

TryinToThink

The kid that wrote the e-mail was not "kicked out of school" (he was "suspended" for his own safety) and further he was reinstated in June.

pearls before swine
the general abhorent behavior these guys demonstrated at the team party, and afterwards

Your painting with too broad a brush when you accuse "these guys" (Reade, Collin and Dave) with "abhorent (sp) behavior".

Look into Reade's actions the night of the party and you'll find that he left early (12:18, IIRC) because he wasn't having a good time. And do you have any proof of their abhorrent behavior afterward (I assume you're referring to the "doing shots at the bar" incident that was reported).

Sloppy, very sloppy.

/u got nothin'
//just keep sprayin' that automatic around, you're bound to hit the truth by accident at some point