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(Wall Street Journal)   John Edwards puts the final nail in his own coffin on day 1, chooses to campaign on the Robin Hood platform   (online.wsj.com) divider line 1080
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20162 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2006 at 12:32 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-12-28 03:35:06 PM
timmy_the_tooth: People who are capable of working must work.

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! *Breathes* AH HA HA HA HA HA!

Spend a few years working in a Personal Injury attorney's office like I did and you'll probably adjust your statement to read: people who don't really wish to work don't have to. A good attorney can get almost anyone SSI or SSD given enough time. You'd be amazed how many people out there are willing to argue that they are functionally retarded (seriously) so they never have to work again.

It's depressing.
 
2006-12-28 03:35:25 PM
One of the largest problems is that when you GIVE people stuff, they don't respect it. The "projects" are a good example of this. If you TEACH people to take care of themselves and have self respect then you will be getting somewhere. I can speak from experience that the one time I had to use a food bank, the patrons where difficult and extremely demanding. I was grateful for the help (not to mention ashamed)and certainly not expecting anything extravagant. I was floored at the number of welfare freaks who thought they were entitled to the best things available.

Looking back now, I feel for the folks who want to help an ungrateful group of people who want nothing more than to take from society and give nothing back. If I sound bitter, it is because I am tired of hearing how we need to be understanding of the poor who need to go to food banks week after week and suck every little bit out of the system rather than get off their backsides and contribute.

I live in a state that rewards folks for being on food stamps/welfare and/or illegal. For those who believe we have to give until we bleed and then give more, please explain why we can't expect all members of the community to contribute? Even the least educated person can pick up trash and hold signs for a wage. Sure it isn't glamorous but giving a person everything doesn't give him the ability to work for it himself. All it does is teach him that he should expect someone else to take care of him.
 
2006-12-28 03:36:18 PM
Uncle Karl: I have held 6 minimum wage jobs, the first when I was 15. I have done roofing as well during the summer. I worked my way through college and am still paying back the loans. Do you know what I learned? That life would be a lot better without people like you who hold no value in their common man.

Well i thank you so much for your incredible insight into what I actually think.

Stupid, arrogant, lying prick. Get off my jock. STFU and don't freaking talk to me again until you actually follow the discussion long enough to know what I'm saying, farktard. Maybe that was what you should have paid attention to in college.
 
2006-12-28 03:36:33 PM
Even money that this particular conversation degrades to "Neener neener neener!"

Is there a "Godwin"-esque term for a comment thread that has degenerated to "OMG, u r a r33t4rd!!!!!1!lolz0rz!!"
 
2006-12-28 03:36:50 PM
DROxINxTHExWIND:

Sure! And you'll only have to starve for a week and a half before you can get one. But, make sure that you use that ENTIRE $2,000 to get yourself a new house, a vehicle to transport you to and from work, and food for the foreseeable future.

- Govt housing was/is free
- Unemployed are still unemployed after a disaster
- Public transportation reduces the need for a private vehicle

You make it sound like these people were driving BMWs from their downtown condos to their suit and tie jobs. Hardly. The govt provided most of their shiat for free, and will continue to do so.
 
2006-12-28 03:36:53 PM
untrustworthy: It's fun for philosophy class, but it doesn't work in real life.

Karl Marx didn't offer solutions, he only outlined the problems and what will happen if they continue. Unfortunately, people misread what he meant.
 
2006-12-28 03:37:35 PM
Carsa
In projects they are given a temporary shiathole to live in. If they had actual ownership of the apartment they might take care of it.
 
2006-12-28 03:38:09 PM
untrustworthy: It's fun for philosophy class, but it doesn't work in real life

PS Marx shouldn't be discussed in philosophy class and I don't believe he is. Marx is in the domain of sociology and economics.
 
2006-12-28 03:38:39 PM
Uncle Karl: Let me clarify, If as a measure to improve the economy all OSHA requirements were lifted and all workers who died in the line of service could be paid for with a one time fee would you oppose that?

Yes, I would oppose that. I do not believe in unchecked capitalism.

I do not contest that even the worker needs his job, just that the guy on top could and should be a little nicer to the worker.

Nicer how? Employees who are valued can negotiate their own compensation with their employer. But doing the bare minimum to hold a job is no justification for entitlement. Those who are at the top of the corporate chain are typically there for a reason. They have the education, talent, drive, charisma, leadership, and entrepreneurial attitude that makes a business strong. Those at the bottom rely on those for an opportunity to benefit from the busieness they've created.
 
2006-12-28 03:39:25 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders
Care to point out what I lied about?

The sad thing is you probably claim to be a Christian, right?
 
2006-12-28 03:39:57 PM
whidbey: I'm not against profit, don't get me wrong, I do tend to become sickened when profit is utterly maximized without regard for conservation.

Conservation is important; I agree with you. Resources get wasted when they aren't owned. People dump pollution in the river when they don't have to worry about cleaning it up, and over graze the land when they don't own it. However, if you look at something like the logging industry, they have a lot of tree farms that actually have created more trees then there were a century ago! I can see where you might see waste in some of the other things; it is very prevalent. See: Tragedy of the Commons

However, there is waste in giving the government money. Waste in the form of inefficiency, which no one gets the benefit of. Even if that money is supposed to be used for benevolent purposes

I don't know the statistics on this, and I know it's easier to be a cynic, but there are government programs that have helped many many people, that's the truth.


And I believe the government does have a role to play. Most of our current programs just tend to help very inefficiently. Yes, if you throw enough money at a problem some people will get helped; I don't see how they couldn't! As I stated earlier, I want to increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to give the poor more money. This is one of the more efficient ways to help people, since it cuts out most of the government inefficiency.

untrustworthy: It might come to a head, but I doubt it's going to be any real revolution.

I don't know either. One thing I really would like to see is more company ownership by the workers who turn the wheels.


This I am very much in favor of. I recommend everyone read Battle for the Soul of Capitalism It's written by John Bogle, former head of Vanguard and the creator of index funds. Definitely no slouch in capitalism and finance, and he states how our corporations have been corrupted by "managers' capitalism" instead of "owners' capitalism". That the CEO and other execs are treated like celebrities is a huge problem, and he puts in a great analysis and some good ideas to fix the problem.
 
2006-12-28 03:41:07 PM
Uncle Karl: The sad thing is you probably claim to be a Christian, right?

Wow - you know what i think AND what I believe in!

you're amazing You should take your show on the road.

Begone, troll.
 
2006-12-28 03:41:16 PM
Uncle Karl

All Apologies
There is one rule for the corporatist and that is: Make the cheapest quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the lowest wages possible.

~Walmart~


Really?

How exactly do you explain the manufacture of Bentley automobiles and Louis XIII champagne congnac by major international corporations?
 
2006-12-28 03:41:20 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders: ...and also strangely enough, in many of the places I've been, their public assistance policy seems to primarily revolve around the 'work or starve" philosophy.

A lot of what I've seen is that people who are well off in those nations have a tendency to help those who truly need and deserve help. I believe in helping those who could really use it. I just don't like the government taking the lead roll in making that decision for me.
 
2006-12-28 03:41:32 PM
this topic needs more pictures. i only like looking at pictures, i could care less what anyone has to say. isn't that how america decides anything anyway?
 
2006-12-28 03:41:37 PM
GreatScott3138: Is there a "Godwin"-esque term for a comment thread that has degenerated to "OMG, u r a r33t4rd!!!!!1!lolz0rz!!"

CommonSenseSurrenders is reaching that point with Uncle Carl!
 
2006-12-28 03:42:29 PM
untrustworthy
Nicer how?

Perhaps a fair days wage for a fair days work? You know a livable wage that sort of thing.

Employees who are valued can negotiate their own compensation with their employer.
Ok, grandpa maybe when you were a kid this was true, in todays world that rarely happens.

Those who are at the top of the corporate chain are typically there for a reason.
Not all of them legal ones, and almost all of them immoral.
 
2006-12-28 03:43:08 PM
Resin33: CommonSenseSurrenders is reaching that point with Uncle Carl!

Yeah, but I don't see everyone yelling "CommonSenseSurrendersed!" in a thread on Fark. :D
 
2006-12-28 03:43:29 PM
Resin33: untrustworthy: It's fun for philosophy class, but it doesn't work in real life

PS Marx shouldn't be discussed in philosophy class and I don't believe he is. Marx is in the domain of sociology and economics.


Marx adapted a lot of his ideas from Hegel, so he is definitely discussed in philosophy classes.
 
2006-12-28 03:43:33 PM
i106.photobucket.com
 
2006-12-28 03:43:49 PM
Resin33: PS Marx shouldn't be discussed in philosophy class and I don't believe he is. Marx is in the domain of sociology and economics.

Marx was considered to be a philosopher as well.
 
2006-12-28 03:43:55 PM
BlindMan
How do you explain a lack of a sense of humor?

Also does Walmart now stock Bentleys and Decent booze?
 
2006-12-28 03:43:59 PM
untrustworthy: Yes, I would oppose that. I do not believe in unchecked capitalism.

Excellent! Nobody is arguing for communism. Unchecked capitalism is a disaster. So we check it. Some of us are arguing that it needs to be checked a little more until there aren't people starving on the streets.
 
2006-12-28 03:44:00 PM
Rational Exuberance: This I am very much in favor of. I recommend everyone read Battle for the Soul of Capitalism It's written by John Bogle, former head of Vanguard and the creator of index funds. Definitely no slouch in capitalism and finance, and he states how our corporations have been corrupted by "managers' capitalism" instead of "owners' capitalism". That the CEO and other execs are treated like celebrities is a huge problem, and he puts in a great analysis and some good ideas to fix the problem.

Ya know - that raises an interesting question.

We take issue with executived getting paid tens of millions per year to run huge companies - but we don't mind some baseball player getting paid that just because he plays a game? Of course there are exceptions, and negative examples on both sides of that - but doesn't that seem to be a bit backwards somehow?
 
2006-12-28 03:44:59 PM
Welfare is broken. We need to reform it.

Not with handouts, but with leg-ups. Can't find a job in your field? Make training and job placement a requirement of welfare benefits. Short term benefits operate like unemployment... they run out after a year. Long term benefits (housing cost reduction, food stamps, child care for working parents, etc.) be contingent on mandatory training and job placement. This might mean a slight increase in public works projects, but that just benefits us all.

Don't want to play by the rules? You don't get any money. Simple as that. Get tired of Skid Row? Enroll in the leg-up program and go through your training and job placement. It may not be a job that you love, but it is meant as a way to give you a stable enough footing to continue forward to the job you want.

Of course, this plan would probably never be put into place, since it gives mobility to people that would otherwise not have it. It would make it harder to convince the unwashed masses that they are worthless.
 
2006-12-28 03:45:10 PM
Employees who are valued can negotiate their own compensation with their employer.

Uncle Karl: Ok, grandpa maybe when you were a kid this was true, in todays world that rarely happens.

What world are you living in? This is the norm in my world.
 
2006-12-28 03:45:10 PM
untrustworthy: They have the education, talent, drive, charisma, leadership, and entrepreneurial attitude

So what would happen if everybody had those traits? The same farking thing! Everybody can't be a CEO!
 
2006-12-28 03:45:23 PM
untrustworthy

They have the education, talent, drive, charisma, leadership, and entrepreneurial attitude that makes a business strong.

You left out that they also, almost exclusively, have the correct executive gender and race.
 
2006-12-28 03:45:40 PM
BlindMan: How exactly do you explain the manufacture of Bentley automobiles and Louis XIII champagne congnac by major international corporations?

That quote that offends you was a clever play, by Uncle Karl, on a Carnegie quote I posted earlier in the thread.

How do I explain the manufacture of those things? Vanity for the vain. Insignificant in the overall scheme of things.
 
2006-12-28 03:46:21 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders
So I use the fact that most conservatives consider themselves Christian and that is trolling, or was it the fact that I came from a working class(poor) family have a decent job and still think the system sucks?
 
2006-12-28 03:46:22 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders: Wow - you know what i think AND what I believe in!

But are you a Christian?
 
2006-12-28 03:46:26 PM
untrustworthy: A lot of what I've seen is that people who are well off in those nations have a tendency to help those who truly need and deserve help. I believe in helping those who could really use it. I just don't like the government taking the lead roll in making that decision for me.

we in the same boat there.....

Resin33: CommonSenseSurrenders is reaching that point with Uncle Carl!

Meh - I just have little patience for ill-informed farkwad trolls that jump in and attack the adults when they are talking - especially when said ill-informed farkwit trolls don't even know what is being talked about.

So anyway - back to the adults discussing things...
 
2006-12-28 03:46:30 PM
fuhfuhfuh: Welfare is broken. We need to reform it.

Are we flashing back to 1994? Welfare reform passed. Sure, we could still tweak it a little, but by and large the broken parts have been fixed.
 
2006-12-28 03:47:24 PM
I can't believe no one did this before me, the picture was only up like 200 posts ago...

www.divshare.com
 
2006-12-28 03:47:27 PM
Sloth_DC
I live in a world were if you ask for more than the average for your position you are told to take a walk.
 
2006-12-28 03:47:35 PM
Uncle Karl: Perhaps a fair days wage for a fair days work? You know a livable wage that sort of thing.

Not every job deserves to pay a livable wage.

Ok, grandpa maybe when you were a kid this was true, in todays world that rarely happens.

Bullshiat. If you are in a job where you can't negotiate then you haven't done enough to make yourself an irreplaceable asset to your company.

Not all of them legal ones, and almost all of them immoral.

Oh, give me a break. Most business owners are not immoral, and few break laws to get where they are. Maybe once you graduate and mature a little you'll get this.
 
2006-12-28 03:48:15 PM
Resin33: But are you a Christian?


:perks up:

Oooh! Are we gonna have a crucifiction?
 
2006-12-28 03:48:36 PM
untrustworthy: Marx was considered to be a philosopher as well.

Is he taught in philosophy class though? I only took the intro one... any philosophy majors out there learn about Marx in their core classes? It is ok, we won't make fun of your degree.

Maybe.
 
2006-12-28 03:48:46 PM
Uncle Karl: So I use the fact that most conservatives consider themselves Christian and that is trolling, or was it the fact that I came from a working class(poor) family have a decent job and still think the system sucks?

No, the fact that you jumped into the middle of a conversdation and decided to attack me when you didn't even know what I was saying. You substituted knowledge and logic for assumtion and idiocy. I have no time for trolls and half-wits like yourself.
 
2006-12-28 03:49:11 PM
Uncle Karl: So I use the fact that most conservatives consider themselves Christian and that is trolling

I dunno about trolling, but it's kind of a useless point. Most "progressives" consider themselves Christian, too. In fact, unless there's an Atheist Party or Valhalla Party floating around, I'd be willing to bet that most members of any US political party you'd care to name consider themselves Christians.
 
2006-12-28 03:49:12 PM
Sloth_DC

Are we flashing back to 1994? Welfare reform passed. Sure, we could still tweak it a little, but by and large the broken parts have been fixed.

If it has been fixed, then why are people still biatching about "entitlements"? If it was truly fixed, then there wouldn't be "entitlements" now would there?
 
2006-12-28 03:49:16 PM
Sloth_DC: Sure, we could still tweak it a little, but by and large the broken parts have been fixed.

I dunno about that, I am pretty sure welfare is still an all or nothing kinda thing, where you can't work at all or you lose your benefits.
 
2006-12-28 03:49:24 PM
2006-12-28 03:36:50 PM MadAsshatter


DROxINxTHExWIND:

Sure! And you'll only have to starve for a week and a half before you can get one. But, make sure that you use that ENTIRE $2,000 to get yourself a new house, a vehicle to transport you to and from work, and food for the foreseeable future.

- Govt housing was/is free
- Unemployed are still unemployed after a disaster
- Public transportation reduces the need for a private vehicle

================================================

Gov't housing? You mean the tents and dorms that they were living in? The one's that they lived in where they were threatened with expulsion every other week? The housing hundreds of miles away from the only home some of them had ever known?
Oh, but they could just go get unemployment because nothing would have been easier than to file paperwork in New Orleans 5 minutes after they finished pumping out all of the sewage. Even easier to file in another farking state without the I.D. or birth cirtificate that you lost wading through chest deep flood waters.
And just from the Fark threads on the price of gas, we should know that ALL people live in an area where public transportation is adundent.

You make it sound like these people were driving BMWs from their downtown condos to their suit and tie jobs. Hardly. The govt provided most of their shiat for free, and will continue to do so



Oh, nice. The Barbara Bush rational. A more racist and incorrect assesment has never been made. Even if you don't have compassion for the residents of subsidized housing and the 'projects', understand that there WERE people who owned those rental dwellings. They got farked, too. Maybe you'd have more compassion if the media showed you more hardship cases of people who look like you.
 
2006-12-28 03:50:03 PM
Resin33: But are you a Christian?

It has no relevance to the discussion, so you may feel free to presume whatever you want.
 
2006-12-28 03:50:49 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders: We take issue with executived getting paid tens of millions per year to run huge companies - but we don't mind some baseball player getting paid that just because he plays a game? Of course there are exceptions, and negative examples on both sides of that - but doesn't that seem to be a bit backwards somehow?

You will rarely find anyone who believes sports salaries are acceptable.

But this leads to another hair-brained idea!

Maximum wage! Or at the very least, a dollar for dollar luxury tax once you pass the maximum wage. All money raised would be redistributed equally to the rest of the employees in said company up to the maximum wage. What ever is left over goes to the federal government.
 
2006-12-28 03:51:02 PM
untrustworthy
Not every job deserves to pay a livable wage.

So some people should starve? Who do you think should be allowed to starve?

Bullshiat. If you are in a job where you can't negotiate then you haven't done enough to make yourself an irreplaceable asset to your company.
No one is irreplaceable. If you are not, then you company is not doing a very good job.

Oh, give me a break. Most business owners are not immoral, and few break laws to get where they are. Maybe once you graduate and mature a little you'll get this.

I graduated a while ago, and most are immoral. They are willing to pay starvation level wages that is immoral.
 
2006-12-28 03:51:14 PM
Resin33: Some of us are arguing that it needs to be checked a little more until there aren't people starving on the streets.

I'm not in support of having people starve on the streets. But you can only do so much to help them, and there are only certain things that are truly effective. But when we have an economy where illegal immigrants with far less resources or educational opportunities fight to get into our country to get a job that Americans don't even show up for, you have to wonder where this sense of entitlement comes from.

So what would happen if everybody had those traits? The same farking thing! Everybody can't be a CEO!

There is no chance everyone will have those traits. Some people are born leaders. Some are going to have to be content with working for those leaders.

mydogateit: You left out that they also, almost exclusively, have the correct executive gender and race.

That trend is rapidly changing.
 
2006-12-28 03:51:27 PM
Headso: I dunno about that, I am pretty sure welfare is still an all or nothing kinda thing, where you can't work at all or you lose your benefits.

Beats me - but it strikes me as weird if they don't use the Social Security method (every $2 you earn reduces your benefit by $1)
 
2006-12-28 03:51:55 PM
img115.imageshack.us

that is all
 
2006-12-28 03:52:05 PM
CommonSenseSurrenders: I have no time for trolls and half-wits like yourself.

your statement seems to be the antithesis of your actions thus far...
 
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