rko281

I have an ethiopian friend too. He was imprisoned and tortured and is still fits you're description perfectly.

That said, he doesn't have too many good things to say about the ethiopian government, or african politicians.

I'm consistently amazed by how much he struggled to reap the benefits of a society i was fortunate enough to be born into.

Everyday I think about how unbelievably fortunate we are to live in a society with free speech, functioning democracy, rights for women and basic civil rights, and how so many people around the world would suffer in unimaginable ways just to live here.

They're being funded by foreign Islamists

If so, SO? Here in the U.S., we call that foreign aid. And FYI, we're doing it in Somalia, too.

Devin172: Now that you mention it...I feel a lot better now.

I feel...dirty.

thegoodthebadthedumb

Moral equivocation is too easy of a target. You've got to try harder. Oh, and you have to appear a good deal more earnest.

/5.5 out of 10

thegoodthebadthedumb


If so, SO? Here in the U.S., we call that foreign aid. And FYI, we're doing it in Somalia, too.


If you wade back into czarangelus's tortured ramblings you'll see how he condemns the official government as schills for foreign powers (that they derive the bulk of their support from foreign entities). He conveniently ignored the fact that the ICU is largely funded and armed by foreign powers as well. It's no mistake that one of the turning points in the ICU's quest to seize control of Mogadishu was the capture of the port.

Tartha, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing particularly insidious in sending money to support a particular side in a intra-national struggle.

In fact, if you really feel that you have to meddle in a country's affairs, I'd say economic support is a more palatable foreign policy than sending in a military force.

If anyone hasn't figured out yet that czarangelus is a sexually confused, unintelligent, muslim worshipping twatwaffle at a TTT college, this thread has to clarify that.

Good grief czarangelus is at it again...

LOL! The Somalis are toast. They forget the Ethiopians have the ark of the covenant.

Devin172, yeah, I can't comment on the particulars of this Somali situation, and can't say much about it.

I will say that Iraq has soured my (formerly) neo-liberal (now hijacked and twisted by neo-cons) geo-polticial worldview of intervention to save "failed states", and thus, look unfavorably on Ethiopia's meddling in the affairs of their sovereign neighbor.

/getting old and crotchety
//let the Somalis figure it out themselves

I've always sensed a level of discomfort when talking to my friend about Ethiopia, BoozePenguin, so I've never really pushed it. He seems especially sensistive about Eritrea, so I've just never pursued it to any degree.

I agree with you that, as flawed as we sometimes are, there's much to be thankful for, and I hope we continue to be a haven for those looking to start a new life.

twatwaffle

That is my new favorite word.

thegoodthebadthedumb

If so, SO? Here in the U.S., we call that foreign aid. And FYI, we're doing it in Somalia, too.

The problem is czarangelus is touting the Somali Islamist as home-grown freedom fighters with nothing but the interest of their people, properties and self-determined liberties in mind and, as such, are attempting to fight against an evil, foreign power bent on occupation of their otherwise peaceful land. Which is not the case.

Devin127 already made the point for me.

Ethiopia = asked by legitimate government of Somalia to come to their aid.

Somali Islamists = used by wealthy non-Somali Islamists to institute the "ideal" Sharia-based society.

Who's looking out for the average Somali?

What's the Islamists' main concern? Securing Somali or securing a place for Islam's domination in Somali?

thegoodthebadthedumb


I will say that Iraq has soured my (formerly) neo-liberal (now hijacked and twisted by neo-cons) geo-polticial worldview of intervention to save "failed states", and thus, look unfavorably on Ethiopia's meddling in the affairs of their sovereign neighbor.


Thing is, Somalia has been drifting towards anarchy for a while now. The gradual drift towards independence for a number of regions, as large as Somaliland and Puntland to as small as a single clan, has caused tremendous upheaval in the area. While it would be nice if Ethiopia remained aloof from this mess, and they have by and large for the last 15 years (since the fall of Barre), they have a large, difficult to secure border with a state so unstable that clan feuds & banditry are common. The level of instability is such that it could easily spill over into and disrupt Ethiopia proper.

rko281

I don't know that many ethiopians and due to the traumatizing nature of what happened to him I never pursued it much but when he has talked to me about the leaders in ethiopia, and african leaders in general he does it with a tone of utter disgust and contempt. I get the feeling he thinks african politicians are the scum of the earth, corrupt vilians who are so entirely focused on personal gain that they would sacrifice entire nations to their greedy whims.

thegoodthebadthedumb: I will say that Iraq has soured my (formerly) neo-liberal (now hijacked and twisted by neo-cons) geo-polticial worldview of intervention to save "failed states"

The question in my mind is whether Iraq under Saddam constituted a "failed state".

One good criteria for making this decision is whether or not other countries in the region and around the globe agree with that assessment. In the case of Iraq, they certainly did not.

Afghanistan on the other hand seemed to genuinely fit the mold of a "failed state".

I wonder what it is about Sharia law that is so appealing among the alternatives to those who are hopelessly poor. It must give them a sense of self determining power that isn’t available through the other governing options.

Zoultan

I wonder what it is about Sharia law that is so appealing among the alternatives to those who are hopelessly poor. It must give them a sense of self determining power that isn't available through the other governing options.

I think that, like a lot of regressive ideas, it gets sold to people in crummy parts of the world as part of bringing back the "good old days". Wherever you find shiatty situations, you're going to find folks saying "remember when things were great around here? Let's bring those days back! Let's bring back the Golden Age!" And so the trappings of the "Golden Age" are brought back...never mind that the golden age was largely just wishful thinking, or the product of circumstances that no longer exist.

A lot of proponents of Sharia Law are trying to hearken back to the days when Islamic nations were wealthy, powerful, and respected. They're trying to get God's favour back, so he'll make them strong again.

A lot of proponents of Sharia Law are trying to hearken back to the days when Islamic nations were wealthy, powerful, and respected.

In the 1600's? That's a lot of days.

wonder what it is about Sharia law that is so appealing among the alternatives to those who are hopelessly poor. It must give them a sense of self determining power that isn't available through the other governing options.

Well, it's more that the desperately poor folks have nothing, and can't stop the armed Sharia folks from telling them what to do. Not so much the poor going "give us Sharia!". The reason they're not overthrowing Sharia establishers is that the poor don't have the resources, and for the most part are farmers. Add to that the brutality of the Sharia enforcers....

Going with the flow keeps your head attached to your shoulders, and keeps your wife from getting beaten. Not exactly what you'd pick for yourself.

And they're not helping the folks that are fighting the Sharia groups, because they know that it's a death warrent should the Sharia courts get power.

Zoultan

Shariah provides boundries for people who are incapable, for whatever reason, of providing them for themselves to follow.

When most people in a society are used to killing, raping and stealing because it's been their way of life for so long, they have lost the ability to police themselves.

These societies require boundries to be made clear for them, and they need the boundries to be unbending and brutal so they have no opportunity to test the water, so to speak.

Think of it like a child who has grown up with no boundries what so ever. sooner or later the child will lose the ability to regulate his/her own behavior, and will become a danger to himself, and to those around him.

In order to rehabilitate children without the ability to regulate their own behavior you have to provide clear, definitive and brutal boundries that are being imposed by outside sources. The child needs to learn that there are consiquences for disorderly behavior that will be imposed on them by fellow members of society, so they should regulate their behavior

I dunno if anybody here watches intervention, but alot of the time this is what they are doing for drug addicts who know no boundries when they threaten excommunication or police intervention in an attempt to get the person into rehab. The parents have often allowed the drug use to continue by not standing by clear boundries thus enabling the drug use, and inorder to help the child change the boundries must be drawn in the sand and absolutly stood by.

This is what shariah law offers the people of somalia, who after years of anarchy have lost the ability to regulate their own behavior. It imposses clear and brutal boundries on disorderly people from the highest authority (allah), inorder to get them to change their behavior.

/ does that make sence?

BoozePenguin: It imposses clear and brutal boundries on disorderly people from the highest authority (allah), inorder to get them to change their behavior.

I think that's absolutely true. However, I think it's the religious dimension that makes it distinct from other authoritarian legal systems (like Iraqi Baathism). The difference being that the rules do not come from men, but from God and as such are not subject to earthly modification/interpretation.

As a result, there is little room for questioning them, which provides for less opportunities for violent disagreement.

In addition, it ameliorates any resentment towards the temporal authorities which enforce the law. They are only doing what God commands them to, so you can't blame them.

Anyone willing to put a cap in the ass of the janjaweed and restore some kind of order to a land full of long suffering people is fine with me. If it isn't the US than so much the better.

felixstrange

I agree wiht you, shariah is praticularily dangerous because it adds that religious twist, but I honsetly see little hope for secular peace in a place such as somalia.

Men (warlords) have been unable to provide authority because warlords are unable to rally the masses around themselves, nobody in somalia has been powerful enough to establish the cult of personality necissary for a secular authoritarian government. Since people can be critisized and fought against violently, no single person is able to hold on to power.

Not so when it's Allah who is calling the shots. Allahs servants are beyond critisism, and as such are able to effectivly rally the muslim populace around the one thing they have already submitted themselves too, Allah.

Life is so cheap in somalia no one person can secure and hold power. The only thing that can scare the people straight is the one thing they have already submitted too and the one thing they can't shoot or blow up, and the one thing they can't run from, Allah's will.

I saw one of the Islamic Courts guys on BBC world earlier and he was saying the reason they are fighting is that Islamic law is the only law, and democracy is not compatible with Islam. "Only god can make laws, not people"

So the Islamic Courts don't like the idea of voting or people making their own laws, if it's not in the koran it's outlawed and they cut your farking head off if you don't worship Islam.

Sounds like they need to get their asses kicked. Go Ethiopia!

What do you call an Ethiopian taking a dump?

A showoff.


/that's all I gots

BoozePenguin: It imposes clear and brutal boundaries on disorderly people from the highest authority (allah), in order to get them to change their behavior.

felixstrangeI think that's absolutely true. However, I think it's the religious dimension that makes it distinct from other authoritarian legal systems (like Iraqi Baathism). The difference being that the rules do not come from men, but from God and as such are not subject to earthly modification/interpretation.

This makes a lot of sense. When you look at the recent history of so many populaces converting to Islam, the common thread seems to be the powerlessness of the people to control their base sociologic and pathologic behaviors (governance or societal norms), and to defend themselves against anarchistic thugs, warlords, and Imams. An ultra-rigid rule set that is immutably from a god gives everyone a common set of societal rules. If you choose to revolt against the rules, you must defeat the god, rather than your local warlord. That is hopeless, so everyone follows the rules as interpreted by the most charismatic preacher of the law.

What can the western world offer to compete?

Zoultan: What can the western world offer to compete?

Prosperity and stability if we really tried.

Selling them our surplus grain at a steep discount instead of throwing it out would be a great start.

Seriously, the one common factor in all of these clusterfarks are not religion/atheism or socialism/capitalism but poverty and ignorance.

Until the dominant powers in the world and their common populace realize it's in their own best interested to alleviate these things in the third world, situations like Rwanda/Darfur/Somalia will continue indefinitely.

Or they can continue to cheer on one religion/ethnicity over another and back repressive dictatorships as long as it's in their short term interests.

Wonder which they'll do...

/not really

Degree: BA Philosophy, Stetson '06

Can I get some fries with that? And throw in an apple pie.

/by request

czarangelus

"it's possible, it just isn't the case. That's what the Western media would like you to believe, because they are the paid shills of the administration and American military-industrial complex."

really wow.. when do i get my check..
seriously ive worked in the Western Media for 10 years and i still aint got my payoff from the "american military-industrial complex"
how much are thsoe checks
is it enough to buy a gas guzzling SUV
or maybe a slave that the islamists in african are so fond of selling

wow
you are a moron

fireclown:

Anyone willing to put a cap in the ass of the janjaweed and restore some kind of order to a land full of long suffering people is fine with me. If it isn't the US than so much the better.

Um - I think you're confusing Somalia with Sudan. Thanks for playing, though, and we have a buttload of parting gifts for you...

But, do they know it's Christmas?

Q] What do you call an Ethiopian with a shadow?


A] Fat.

Ethiopia plans to go in, run out the Islamists and leave. What a novel idea!

If I had to be in that part of the Earth, after Israel I'd pick Ethiopia. They have some damn good coffee too.

Somalia is the last place I'd want to be, I'd even rather be in North Korea.

Go Ethiopia.

"Nope. I'm rooting for people who, when invaded by a foreign power, protect their homeland. This might be a completely alien concept to you."

So then you supported the German people in WW2?

/Nearly Godwin

Interesting thread. This is one of those times, I am proud to be in the Fark community as well as ashamed.

/Born and raised in Ethiopia

Gary_Malibou

really wow.. when do i get my check..
seriously ive worked in the Western Media for 10 years and i still aint got my payoff from the "american military-industrial complex"
how much are thsoe checks
is it enough to buy a gas guzzling SUV
or maybe a slave that the islamists in african are so fond of selling

Awesome 10 years eh? Then maybe you can explain these things

http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/prewar_intelligence_wmd

Here's a case study just to narrow it down for ya

Four of six major papers left out prescient warnings in coverage of 2002 Iraq war vote

TIA!!

Piltdown

That is probably the worst picture I have ever seen on teh Intarwebs.

for every ones enjoyment:

http://somalinet.com/news/world/Somalia/6223

On December 27, the leaders of the ICU, including Sheiks Hassan Dahir Aweys, Sharif Sheikh Ahmed and Abdirahman Janaqow resigned in a capitulation recognizing the new state of affairs in Somalia. They issued the following decisions:

1. It is national duty to protect the sovereignty and the integrity of Somalia and its people.

2. The ICU allows that Somalis should have the option to determine their future and would be ready for taking over the responsibility.

3. The Islamic Courts Union agreed not to allow anyone to create violence in Mogadishu and anybody that is found guilty would be brought before the law and would be taken for the suitable punishment according to the Islamic Sharia.

4. The ICU fighters are responsible for establishing the security and stability in the Somalia capital Mogadishu.

5. Lastly, the ICU is calling on all the Islamic fighters in whereever they are in Somalia to secure the stability and get ready in the police stations and other security stations.

The Islamic officials in the capital stressed that it is shame and misfortune that Somalia will again loss their security and peace in which they were brought from starting village, town, city and to country.

I am personally impressed that the ICU capitulated and also asked the ICU fighters to work with the government to re-establish order in the country. This could just be Psy-Ops BS from the Pro-gov't side, but if they really really do believe in doing the 'right' and 'islamic' thing then they would do exactly what the story says. I guess we will find out.

/and czarangelus, you, your a moron.
//just joining the chorus of critics, cause there are very very many

Ethiopia couldn't even handle Etrea, I don't know what they are thinking.