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(Reuters)   Hamas and Fatah continue to shoot and rocket each other. Yes, these nuts need a homeland to run   (today.reuters.com) divider line 563
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2515 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2006 at 12:29 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-12-19 12:48:34 PM  
.....'Scuse me, but isn't the proper order: Obtain country, fight over leadership?

Why?
They are fighting to see who will run the contry once, and if, they get one.
Why procrastinate?

The point is, that even white "civilized" Christians can engage in stupid, bloody civil war. And come out on the other side in pretty good shape.
 
2006-12-19 12:49:03 PM  
Sloth_DC
Wait, what? Whose territory? Last I checked, it wasn't the Egyptians and Jordanians causing the trouble. Nobody else besides Israel, Egypt, and Jordan has legal claim to the territory.

As usual, you're off-your-rocker wrong on this one. The Palestinian Authority has a most decidedly legal claim to the occupied territories, as recognized by everyone from the United Nations Security Council all the way to the US Government itself.
 
2006-12-19 12:50:09 PM  
Aquareddye: Thats what happened in war, the loser loses land. Mind you, this isn't even a war they started, it was launched ON them by a number of countries on a holy day.

While I am a strong supporter of Israel, the international community long ago (post WWII) decided that nations could not gain land through warfare. Also, you have confused the 67 war with the 73 (Yom Kippur) war.
 
2006-12-19 12:50:24 PM  
mrexcess: How would you know? The Palestinians haven't been free of Israeli domination for a single second in the entire lifetimes of an average Fark poster.

Define for me exactly who qualifies as a Palestinian, if you would?

Do refugees of arab extraction from territories contested over in the name of Palestine count as Palestinian? People who are going to, say, Syria?

st_gulik: Well don't mind me then when I give you the box of extra cool mortars, and hey, I don't work for the Haganah or anything like that, NO SIR!

Maybe I could blow up my car. At least get some amusement out of it.
 
2006-12-19 12:50:57 PM  
Aquareddye
People seemed to be upset that Israel had the land "in the first place". They didn't they took it in a war. Thats what happened in war, the loser loses land.

Wrong. The acquisition of territory through warfare is a violation of international law's most basic precepts, as codified in the United Nations charter and the League of Nations' before it. Allowing territorial conquest is simply too dangerous to fathom in the modern era of WMDs.
 
2006-12-19 12:51:36 PM  
Galloping Galoshes: DMW Devil: We got a Sam's Club sized oil for use in our Menorahs, and I'm pretty sure it'll still last us for the rest of the [Jewish] year's cooking :^)

Humph. In MY household, that wouldn't get us through breakfast. ;)

Got a picture of that menorah? Are you using olive oil?


I'm still getting used to southern cooking. Maybe by next year I'll be more proficient in my making of fried foods :^)

And I don't have available pics of our Menorahs, though one is a classic tall metallic and the other is a Jerusalem Stone-like block with candle holders lining the top. And yes, we are using Shemen Zayit ;^)

And to bring this back to Israel, I wish we had those little cubbies in our outside walls that you put your Menorah into so it's really visible outside.
 
2006-12-19 12:52:17 PM  
st_gulik: And if minusfire had mortared your family?

I'd put a bullet in his head...not his, his families, his neighbor's and their dog's...
 
2006-12-19 12:52:36 PM  
mrexcess: There's one truly from the bizarro files. This may surprise you, HOV, but Israel has actually been *taking land from the Palestinians*, not *giving it to them*.

Maybe you missed it, but check the Camp David accords - the Israelis gave a big chunk of land to the PA. Then, at Taba, they offered another big chunk of land to the PA. Yes, Israel *has* been giving land to the PA, and trying to give them more. The can't logically "take" land from the Palestinian State, since such an entity does not exist and has never existed - thanks, primarily, to the invasion and annexation of said territory by Jordan and Egypt.
 
2006-12-19 12:53:30 PM  
Dancin_In_Anson: I'd put a bullet in his head...not his, his families, his neighbor's and their dog's...

What's your street address?

I've got this allergy to lead in my brain tissue, you see, so I want to make sure I don't peg you by mistake.
 
2006-12-19 12:53:46 PM  
muninsfire
Define for me exactly who qualifies as a Palestinian, if you would?

Someone who holds Palestinian citizenship.

Do refugees of arab extraction from territories contested over in the name of Palestine count as Palestinian? People who are going to, say, Syria?

I can't really parse that, especially with all those qualifiers, well enough to be sure of what you mean. Could you rephrase things a bit more concisely?
 
2006-12-19 12:53:53 PM  
0Icky0: The point is, that even white "civilized" Christians can engage in stupid, bloody civil war. And come out on the other side in pretty good shape.

I get your point. However, for the "come out on the other side in pretty good shape" to have a chance, you need something, institutions for example, to fight over. In the examples you brought, there was already something in place. Fighting in advance of establishing a state leads to a failed state and continual warfare.
 
2006-12-19 12:53:55 PM  
Aquareddye: People seemed to be upset that Israel had the land "in the first place". They didn't they took it in a war. Thats what happened in war, the loser loses land. Mind you, this isn't even a war they started, it was launched ON them by a number of countries on a holy day. Thats like Israel attacking mecca on whatever the hell this religious day is coming up for them. It wouldn't fly and they'd be bashed to hell for doing it. But nooo, when the Palestinians attack Israel theres nothing wrong, except when Israel whomps them and takes land, its wrong. So Israel did the "right" (read: pressured/stupid) thing and gave the land back. Only then, the Palestinians decided to blow it the fark up and keep killing people. Right, you keep saying Israel is to blame.

Uhuh, because Churchhill was a GENIUS who was all about Giving Away Other People's Countries to poor psyche'd out
Jews who made it out of that HELL called The Final Solution.

I can't wait till Israel finally goes on the offensive and steamrolls the entire region after the civil wars wear the Palestinians down.

Man, you're rich, uhm what JUST happened in Lebanon? Oh that's right, the Israeli's got their ASS handed to them and they have the toughest tanks in the WORLD.
 
2006-12-19 12:54:38 PM  
muninsfire: Maybe I could blow up my car. At least get some amusement out of it.

Warn me to cover my ears. Take pictures.
 
2006-12-19 12:55:16 PM  
mrexcess: Someone who holds Palestinian citizenship.

Hooray, lovely definition.

So who decides who holds Palestinian citizenship? Can I go out and get it? To whom would I apply?

I can't really parse that, especially with all those qualifiers, well enough to be sure of what you mean. Could you rephrase things a bit more concisely?

You've got a Palestinian who's currently living for whatever reason in Syria. They're not under Israel's "domination", now, are they?

/My point being that your rhetoric is treading dangerously close to fallacy.
 
2006-12-19 12:55:49 PM  
mrexcess: Wrong. The acquisition of territory through warfare is a violation of international law's most basic precepts

...when Israel does it. However, all that territory acquired through war by France, the US, Britain, and Russia? A-Ok. And never mind the fact that Jordan and Egypt themselves acquired Gaza and the West Bank through war, and nobody apparently gave a shiat. It's only a basic precept of international law when Israel gains land through a war she didn't even start. Oddly specific for a basic precept of international law, but whatever.
 
2006-12-19 12:56:43 PM  
DMW Devil: one is a classic tall metallic and the other is a Jerusalem Stone-like block with candle holders lining the top. And yes, we are using Shemen Zayit ;^)

And to bring this back to Israel, I wish we had those little cubbies in our outside walls that you put your Menorah into so it's really visible outside.


Sounds very cool. Yes, the cubbies would be cool. You're supposed to put it in or near a window, anyway, but your suggestion is better.
 
2006-12-19 12:57:02 PM  
Sloth_DC
Maybe you missed it, but check the Camp David accords - the Israelis gave a big chunk of land to the PA.

Such as...? Could you give me an example of the additional territories that Palestinians have been given by Israel? Excluding concessions of territory that never actually belonged to Israel in the first place?

Then, at Taba, they offered another big chunk of land to the PA.

They offered a big chunk of worthless land in replacement for the valuable land they'd already illegally built settlements on and colonized. You've got a knack for intellectually dishonest argumentation, Sloth_DC. Try telling the whole story sometime.

The can't logically "take" land from the Palestinian State

Semantic nonsense. They certainly can take land, in fact have been taking land, from the Palestinian people, for decades upon decades. Every single settlement in the occupied territories is an example of Israel taking land from the Palestinians.
 
2006-12-19 12:57:08 PM  
Everyday I feel more and more lucky and/or blessed to have been born in the USA. I'd like to take this time and thank my grandparents for making the trek over from Germany many suns ago.
 
2006-12-19 12:57:20 PM  
Galloping Galoshes: Warn me to cover my ears. Take pictures.

Can't. My camera broke months ago.

/Yeah....pretty much everything I own has been dying on me for no apparent reason.
//Which is kinda inexplicable, 'cuz it's not like I abuse my stuff or anything--it just *stops working* and nothing I do can manage to resurrect it.
///This sorta thing's been going on for a while--most of my computer knowledge comes from having to resurrect systems that died for no apparent reason in creative ways because I can't afford to replace 'em.
////Things die on me in the *strangest* ways. I'm like the walking embodiment of entropy or something.
 
2006-12-19 12:57:36 PM  
pnome: I wonder how the ordinary Pali might feel about this. They are probably too busy looting their own greenhouses to care.

If they had anything to loot.
 
2006-12-19 12:57:46 PM  
Sloth_DC: Jordan and Egypt themselves acquired Gaza and the West Bank through war, and nobody apparently gave a shiat.

Actually, Britain recognized Jordan's claim, which supports your thesis.
 
2006-12-19 12:58:20 PM  
Dancin_In_Anson: I'd put a bullet in his head...not his, his families, his neighbor's and their dog's...

Exactly welcome to the Jihad.
 
2006-12-19 12:58:44 PM  
muninsfire: pretty much everything I own has been dying on me for no apparent reason.

I was gonna say... Good thing you're not married.

I'm like the walking embodiment of entropy or something.

Or Murphy.
 
2006-12-19 12:59:21 PM  
Define for me exactly who qualifies as a Palestinian, if you would?

Someone who was born in the West Bank or Gaza strip?
 
2006-12-19 12:59:23 PM  
Galloping Galoshes: While I am a strong supporter of Israel, the international community long ago (post WWII) decided that nations could not gain land through warfare. Also, you have confused the 67 war with the 73 (Yom Kippur) war.

Yeah, who's stupid idea was that anyways?
 
2006-12-19 01:00:02 PM  
Galloping Galoshes: I was gonna say... Good thing you're not married.

Yet. I've a very steady girlfriend, who broke her ankle stepping off a curb while in my company. I'm starting to feel rather nervous about my influences now....

Or Murphy.

Or Finagle.

/Great, I *am* Irish, aren't I....
 
2006-12-19 01:00:32 PM  
muninsfire: Sake, and yes.

Or Chu-hi

/mmm grapefruit chu-hi
 
2006-12-19 01:01:21 PM  
muninsfire: ////Things die on me in the *strangest* ways. I'm like the walking embodiment of entropy or something.

So you have like an Arete of 8 and Entropy 6 then or something?
 
2006-12-19 01:01:27 PM  
Sloth_DC
...when Israel does it.

No, when anyone does it.

However, all that territory acquired through war by France, the US, Britain, and Russia? A-Ok.

Errr, such as? Give me an example of territory acquired through war by any of the nations mentioned following the creation of the United Nations.

And never mind the fact that Jordan and Egypt themselves acquired Gaza and the West Bank through war

No they didn't, they took it because the British Mandate fell apart.

It's only a basic precept of international law when Israel gains land through a war she didn't even start.

No, it's always a basic precept. You're just good at (deliberately or not I'll leave to the reader to judge) misinterpreting history for everyone.

At least you acknowledge that it is, in fact, against international law to acquire territory through warfare. That's a start.
 
2006-12-19 01:02:12 PM  
To borrow a quote from Henry Kissinger, “It's a shame they both can't lose.”
 
2006-12-19 01:03:01 PM  
Galloping Galoshes: DMW Devil: one is a classic tall metallic and the other is a Jerusalem Stone-like block with candle holders lining the top. And yes, we are using Shemen Zayit ;^)

And to bring this back to Israel, I wish we had those little cubbies in our outside walls that you put your Menorah into so it's really visible outside.
---
Sounds very cool. Yes, the cubbies would be cool. You're supposed to put it in or near a window, anyway, but your suggestion is better.


Right, so our Menorahs are on our windowsill, but they're less visible behind a window in a lighted room, they go out when yuo walk by too quickly, etc.

...and did you hear about the pre-filled oil "glass" cups that are melting and raining fire on people's tables faster than homemade Qassams?
 
2006-12-19 01:03:27 PM  
mrexcess: Such as...?

All of the land that was handed over to the Palestinian Authority.

Excluding concessions of territory that never actually belonged to Israel in the first place?

Israel controls it. Nobody else has a valid claim except Jordan and Egypt, and they've disclaimed the territory. Yes, Israel *gave* this land to the PA.

Semantic nonsense. They certainly can take land, in fact have been taking land, from the Palestinian people, for decades upon decades. Every single settlement in the occupied territories is an example of Israel taking land from the Palestinians.

Define "Palestinians" please. If you mean "resident of Palestine", that includes all Israelis and Jordanians.
 
2006-12-19 01:04:00 PM  
st_gulik: So you have like an Arete of 8 and Entropy 6 then or something?

You forget, I'm not sane, so I'd be one of those wossnames...you know, the ones who walk around and reality warps around them, and they don't take Paradox because of it?

/Been a while since I played Mage, and I never could remember the name of those guys in the first place anyway.
 
2006-12-19 01:04:04 PM  
Bo 'n Luke
To borrow a quote from Henry Kissinger, "It's a shame they both can't lose."

It's sad that we never learn from history. You know who Mr. Kissinger was talking about? Iraq and Iran. There's probably a lesson there, for anyone who cares enough to pay attention.
 
2006-12-19 01:04:10 PM  
People who see ugliness from afar won't see beauty up close--they'll just see more ugliness.

I don't know, first time I met my great aunt, I saw her from 100 metres away and thought she was fat. I got up close and realized she just had really great tits.
 
2006-12-19 01:04:53 PM  
mrexcess

a quick breakdown of West Bank history:

The West Bank (Hebrew: הגדה המערבית, Hagadah Hamaaravit, Arabic: الضفة الغربية, aḍ-Ḍiffä l-Ġarbīyä), is a landlocked territory on the west bank of the Jordan River in the Middle East. It was captured by Israel from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War and is considered by the United Nations Security Council,[1] the United Nations General Assembly,[2] the International Court of Justice,[3] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[4] to be under Israeli occupation.

After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, this territory was part of the British Mandate of Palestine. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War brought an end to the Mandate. The West Bank was captured and annexed by Jordan, and the 1949 Armistice Agreements defined its interim boundary. From 1948 until 1967 the area was under Jordanian rule, though Jordan did not relinquish its claim to the area until 1988. The area was captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, although, with the exception of East Jerusalem (and unlike the Golan Heights), it was not annexed by Israel. The West Bank is currently considered under international law to be de jure a territory not part of any state.
 
2006-12-19 01:05:04 PM  
.....Fighting in advance of establishing a state leads to a failed state and continual warfare.

How can you be so sure?
 
2006-12-19 01:05:27 PM  
mrexcess: Semantic nonsense. They certainly can take land, in fact have been taking land, from the Palestinian people, for decades upon decades. Every single settlement in the occupied territories is an example of Israel taking land from the Palestinians.

Yeah, I celebrated Hanukkah '96 (not Jewish, just being polite) inside a double wide built on a Hill in one of those settlements. Later I found out exactly where we had been. YAY! I Love Oppression!
 
2006-12-19 01:07:19 PM  
0Icky0

Look at Somalia
 
2006-12-19 01:08:01 PM  
Sloth_DC
All of the land that was handed over to the Palestinian Authority.

Intellectual dishonesty again, eh? You didn't answer my question at all, I asked you what territories THAT ACTUALLY BELONGED TO ISRAEL they've "given". Israel has no legal claim to one inch of the occupied territories. Of course, no such example exists, so it's either admit that your claim was false or spew more of this crap. I'm shocked at which road you opted for, really. :\

Israel controls it.

Not from the perspective of international law. Israel has no valid claim to any of the occupied territories.

Nobody else has a valid claim except Jordan and Egypt

Why are you repeating out-right lies, even after they've been corrected in the thread? Everyone from the UN to the US Government recognizes the Palestinian Authority has a legally valid claim to the occupied territories. You are, quite simply, ignoring reality when it suits you. I cannot have a productive discussion with someone who is willing to do that.

Define "Palestinians" please.

Those who hold Palestinian citizenship.
 
2006-12-19 01:08:09 PM  
DMW Devil: ...and did you hear about the pre-filled oil "glass" cups that are melting and raining fire on people's tables faster than homemade Qassams?

Be careful, and listen to your son Moses when he talks about leading his toys to Freedom, that might just be the First Sign.
 
2006-12-19 01:08:23 PM  
mrexcess: "encouragement to leave" has been Israel's strategy in the occupied territories since before they were occupied. That's population transfer, it is ethnic cleansing.

Really. Seems rather hyperbolic, if you ask me.

The Palestinians haven't been free of Israeli domination for a single second in the entire lifetimes of an average Fark poster.

IIRC, the west bank was controlled by Jordan until 1967, when Jordan launched an attack against Israel from it. And Gaza was controlled by Egypt until 1967, until Egypt launched an attack against Israe.

Yes, many of your statements, such as Israel taking land from palestinians, are correct. Some of them ignore the fact that land owned by jews pre-1949 was expropriated at that time. You certainly ignore the fact that Israel has a strategic interest in ensuring its defense, and that it is justified in its concerns by repeated attacks by its neighbors (you haven't mentioned Golan, but I'm sure you'll work it in soon). You have failed to note any legitimacy in Israel protecting itself against irregular warfare (some call it terrorism) which predates any occupation.

Yes, Israel's actions and tactics have consequences for the palestinian population. These actions and tactics have in general been in reaction to actions by either neighboring states or palestinians. And they will likely continue, given that there's no strong group among the palestinians that can prevent further attacks on Israel and negotiate on the palestinians' behalf.
 
2006-12-19 01:08:49 PM  
Pelagius: I'm sure there's a way the Jews can be blamed for this somehow... Mel?

Naa, the Jews have nothing to do with the conditions in the Palestinian territories.
 
2006-12-19 01:08:58 PM  
muninsfire: /Great, I *am* Irish, aren't I....

You may kiss my blarney stone.
 
2006-12-19 01:09:12 PM  
ladbag_06: I'm not sure what the point of posting the recap was, but thanks? I'm pretty familiar with the region's history.
 
2006-12-19 01:09:15 PM  
[edit] Judea and Samaria
Prior to this usage of the name "West Bank", the region was commonly referred to as Judea and Samaria, its long-standing name. For example, U.N. Resolution 181, The 1947 Partition Plan explicitly refers to part of the area as Judea and Samaria. For region boundaries set forth in the resolution see the text here.

Israelis refer to the region either as a unit: "The West Bank" (Hebrew: "ha-Gada ha-Ma'aravit" "הגדה המערבית"), or as two units: Judea (Hebrew: "Yehuda" "יהודה") and Samaria (Hebrew: "Shomron" "שומרון"), after the two biblical kingdoms (the southern Kingdom of Judah and the northern Kingdom of Israel - the capital of which was, for a time, in the town of Samaria). The border between Judea and Samaria is a belt of territory immediately north of Jerusalem sometimes called the "land of Benjamin". The name Judea and Samaria has been in continual use by Jews as well as various others since biblical times. This name carries an emotional meaning to many Jews as the cradle of Jewish Nation is derived from the time of King David in the region, the main religious sites and tombs are present there, and continuous Jewish communities were concentrated in the area throughout the years.
 
2006-12-19 01:09:18 PM  
www.coxandforkum.com
 
2006-12-19 01:10:08 PM  
.....Look at Somalia

Look at the Mongol Empire.
 
2006-12-19 01:10:26 PM  
mrexcess

You dont seem familiar with the history when you claim that it is in any way "Palestinian" land. No deeds, no flags, no history, no legitimate claim.
 
2006-12-19 01:10:39 PM  
muninsfire: You forget, I'm not sane, so I'd be one of those wossnames...you know, the ones who walk around and reality warps around them, and they don't take Paradox because of it?

/Been a while since I played Mage, and I never could remember the name of those guys in the first place anyway.


Wow, and I thought my comment was a throw-away. Marauders, just like the kick-ass Battlemechs. ;)~
 
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