FARK.com: (2473628) Israeli satellite TV provider chooses al-Jazeera's English-language service over BBC World because even al-Jazeera is less hostile to Israel than the BBC

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		Israeli satellite TV provider chooses al-Jazeera's English-language service over BBC World because even al-Jazeera is less hostile to Israel than the BBC (guardian.co.uk)		579
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ow3n		2006-12-13 10:55:49 PM

ok, watch the movie control room and you all will understand how AL-Jazeera works as compared to cnn and fox news. it is very enlightening how similar they all are

Kaeishiwaza		2006-12-13 11:05:32 PM

El_Perro
No, it's not. Just like there are different branches/sects of Christianity, there are also different branches/sects/types of Judaism.

The idea of ecuminism is not uniform in Christianity either. While converting from Lutheranism to Catholicism may seem like an easy go, it's not necessarily. There are some pretty big differences between the two. And in this case we're talking about two denominations that are extremely similar. Consider Pentecostals, Mormons, Jews for Jesus, Coptics, Voudon Christians, Eastern Orthodox, Quakers or Syriacs. All these groups consider themselves 'Christian' but you'd have a hard time getting agreement out of them if you put them in a room together. And no, not all of them consider the others 'Christian.'

El_Perro		2006-12-13 11:13:48 PM

Kaeishiwaza: The idea of ecuminism is not uniform in Christianity either. While converting from Lutheranism to Catholicism may seem like an easy go, it's not necessarily. There are some pretty big differences between the two. And in this case we're talking about two denominations that are extremely similar. Consider Pentecostals, Mormons, Jews for Jesus, Coptics, Voudon Christians, Eastern Orthodox, Quakers or Syriacs. All these groups consider themselves 'Christian' but you'd have a hard time getting agreement out of them if you put them in a room together. And no, not all of them consider the others 'Christian.'

I'm not by any means saying that this debate is unique to Judaism. I'm just asserting my belief, as a Conservative Jew, that Orthodox Jews are out of line when they say that Conservative Jews, or Conservative converts for that matter, are not Jews (and, from my experience, Tatsuma is actually pretty 'liberal' on this point as compared to some other Orthodox Jews, who believe that any Conservative/Reform Jews simply aren't Jewish). Just as, I'm sure, a Coptic Christian would assert that a Pentecostal Christian is out of line for saying that Coptics are not Christians (I have no idea if Pentecostals believe this, just picking a couple of sects at random).

Kaeishiwaza		2006-12-13 11:56:50 PM

El_Perro
I'm just asserting my belief, as a Conservative Jew, that Orthodox Jews are out of line when they say that Conservative Jews, or Conservative converts for that matter, are not Jews

Oh I agree to some regards. Personally, I would be very insulted if someone Catholic said to me, "Oh Lutherans, they aren't really Christians." But on the other hand, it's not my problem. I couldn't care less. It's hard enough following my faith without worrying about other folks grading me out.

Tatsuma		2006-12-14 12:40:19 AM

El_Perro: No, it's not. Just like there are different branches/sects of Christianity, there are also different branches/sects/types of Judaism. I know that, as an Orthodox Jew, you reject this idea, and that you don't believe that certain Conservative/Reform Jews are Jews, specifically, converts into Conservative/Reform Judaism. But, it's not your right, as an Orthodox Jew, to say that Conservative and Reform Judaism are not worthy of accepting converts.

Actually, yeah, it's our right.

We are the ones who believe and uphold the Jewish Law (aka Halacha)

We are the ones we are keeping it, the Halacha is what determines the status of Jews and Non-Jews, so yes, indeed, it is the position of Torah-Observant Jews to say who is and who isn't.

Candy Colored Clown		2006-12-14 12:44:37 AM

Amy Sly2006-12-13 08:00:49 PM
I like how several "liberals" accused HellbentForLeather of being a homosexual in such a way as clearly intending to demean him, thereby insinuating, by extension, that it is an insult to be considered a homosexual.

Amy Sly2006-12-13 07:09:41 PM
So, apparently, I'm dishonest and a fool, while you're a bigot who sucks cock.

Amy Sly2006-12-13 08:00:49 PM
I like how several "liberals" accused HellbentForLeather of being a homosexual in such a way as clearly intending to demean him, thereby insinuating, by extension, that it is an insult to be considered a homosexual.

Typical.

Wow didn't see anyone else using homosexuality as a put down before you came here. Did you just PWN yourself?

/Now make me a sammich biatch!

Candy Colored Clown		2006-12-14 12:50:11 AM

And as for you, Tatsuma, think about what's right and not what you think will give your gang legitamacy.

/And yes I mean gang. You act like you are a new member of the crips or bloods. Grow up, son.

El_Perro		2006-12-14 01:27:55 AM

Tatsuma: Actually, yeah, it's our right.

We are the ones who believe and uphold the Jewish Law (aka Halacha)

We are the ones we are keeping it, the Halacha is what determines the status of Jews and Non-Jews, so yes, indeed, it is the position of Torah-Observant Jews to say who is and who isn't.

The Conservative movement maintains that Halacha must be upheld, but that (a) Halacha is not necessarily un-changing, and (b) there is more to Judaism than adherence to Halacha.

The Reform movement is, as I understand it, more lenient (obviously).

These are differences in interpretation of Torah, differences in the understanding of Halacha, and differences in the role of Halacha in Jewish life. These are doctrinal differences, much like different sects of Christianity have doctrinal differences. Just because one sect of Judaism holds that their way is the only way, does not make it so.

I could go on, but it is entirely worthless to try to have a discussion about this, because the point I am trying to make (that the differences between the different branches of Judaism do not make them different religions, and that no one branch gets to define another branch out of the religion) goes against the core of your deeply held religious beliefs (and your point goes against the core of my own beliefs, for that matter). Good night.

equusdc		2006-12-14 01:50:10 AM

Tatsuma

Quality, not quantity.

You, sir, are the categorical, stereotypical example of the worst kind of anti-semite, yet you routinely accuse others of being so.

Mazel tov, shtick drek.

muck4doo		2006-12-14 02:02:01 AM

And all of you stupid farks who always go whining Tatsuma this...Tatsuma that... and yet never give anything else to any thread other than insults for Tatsuma along with your anti-semitic cartoons can go fark yourselves with a tire iron. While you're bent over farking yourselfs with one, don't be surprised when the Mossad hits you with one upside your clueless skulls, you racist pricks.

FatherofWallaby		2006-12-14 02:29:18 AM

Here's the problem with Tatsuma's argument: his premise is that the brand of Judaism he adheres to, "Orthodoxy", is not only the most observant, but the only observant branch of Judaism.
*They're not*.
They observe what their rabbis tell them to observe, based on *Rabbinic interpretation* of Halacha, not Halacha itself.
If folks who define themselves as "Orthodox" really were totally observant, they'd have followed Anan Ben David instead of the Sa'adia Gaon and would today be Karaites. Karaites, naturally, regard all Rabbinic Jews as, well, heathen unbelievers. Which is kinda true, to a degree, as anyone who has heard of the concept of the eruv will no doubt realize. So given that neither Tatsuma, nor I actually follow the Commandments exactly, arguing over the *degree* to which we don't follow the Commandments seems kind of petty.

hudsucker proxy		2006-12-14 06:00:14 AM

candy colored clown wins all six internets!

dave420		2006-12-14 06:32:09 AM

Tatsuma - when the Israeli government stops acting like a bunch of terrorist coonts themselves, then maybe they can take the moral high ground when calling others terrorists. Israel and Palestine are both as bad as each other. The only difference is Israel is the only country in a position to actually make any difference. Expecting the underdog to roll over and take even more in the ass without the slightest hint of benefit is ridiculous. fark Israel. That whole mess should have been created in Florida. No-one would have even noticed.

El_Swino		2006-12-14 07:16:19 AM

Candy Colored Clown

Pointing out the poor fellow's self-loathing complex is a road I didn't go down. Nicely done.

Wolfy		2006-12-14 07:58:03 AM

Tatsuma,

Surprisingly, I also don't give a shiat what the Halacha or the Talmud says.

It might surprise you, but I do not consider Jewish assilmilation as the end of the world. I am a human first, before I am a Jew. It took me a long time to realize this. But I now understand that you are the best when you accept everything that is given to you, integrate it, and grow as a person.

Jews are increadible. We have survived for generations. Impacting civilization with science, literature, art, music, and philosophy. Yet, Jew are also increadible because they were able to take new knowledge, to open up and change (especially following the 18th century).

You can stick to your 17th century ghetto mentality. You can turn into a stagnent force like the Islamic world. Whatever you want. Just don't ask me to feed you, and subsidize your religious indoctorination of your children in the Yeshivot.

As for my children (and I think I am going to be wonderful father), I will teach them my traditions, langauges, culture and history (not only Jewish but also Russian and North American) and so will the mother. And if they do not chose to maintain and pass on any of these things to their kids, whatever works for them. And if they chose to become religious Jews, they will also have my blessings.

Finally, I would think it a tragedy if the face of Jewery would once again be Orthodox, where instead of Einstein we would have Uvdia Yossef or Maloobvich (basically Mullahs) as the face of the Jews.

Fortunatly, I think that despite the fascist tendencies of the ultra Orthodox, Israel will remain a secular state for a very long time.

Kaeishiwaza,

Think of it like this: being Jewish is the same as being an intellectual (in the old sense of the word ie the intelligencia). One can be born into an intellectual family (and will likley remain an intellectual), or one can read, value knowledge and consider himself an intellectual. One does not need to follow a certain popular thought that is shared by most intellectuals in order to be an intellectual. For example I could be an idealist (in the Bishop Barcklian sense) and still be intellectual despite the unpopularity of the view at the current time.

Hope that helped.

El_Swino		2006-12-14 08:05:27 AM

muck4doo

you racist pricks.

Oh, I can't believe I missed this before. Some loser played the anti-Semite card! That's awesome! This thread is really delivering.

Persepolis		2006-12-14 08:53:09 AM

El_Swino: That's awesome! This thread is really delivering.

Says you. Adolf.

El_Swino		2006-12-14 09:26:19 AM

Persepolis

Says you. Adolf.

Heh. Don't make me go all lebenstraum on your ass.

muck4doo		2006-12-14 09:55:31 AM

El_Swino

If you're not posting racist cartoons or photoshopped stuff, then I'm not referring to you.

BoozePenguin		2006-12-14 10:23:09 AM

Wolfy

As a jew I gotta say.

+1

/great stuff

El_Swino		2006-12-14 11:15:04 AM

muck4doo

If you're not posting racist cartoons or photoshopped stuff, then I'm not referring to you.

And now comes the back-paddling after sobering up the next morning. Hey, at least we weren't on a date.

Tatsuma		2006-12-14 12:24:16 PM

equusdc: You, sir, are the categorical, stereotypical example of the worst kind of anti-semite, yet you routinely accuse others of being so.

An anti-semite? How exactly am I an anti-semite?

FatherofWallaby: Here's the problem with Tatsuma's argument: his premise is that the brand of Judaism he adheres to, "Orthodoxy", is not only the most observant, but the only observant branch of Judaism.

We're not saying we are the only observant, we're saying we are the only ones that believe in fulfilling all the mitzvot, and it is so

. So given that neither Tatsuma, nor I actually follow the Commandments exactly, arguing over the *degree* to which we don't follow the Commandments seems kind of petty.

Actually, I do. I follow all the commandments that are applicable today

Do I fark-up? Of course! Do I break some of them sometimes? Of course!

But I try my best to follow them. I don't reject any of them out of hands like Reform or Conservative Jews.

Kaeishiwaza		2006-12-14 01:00:34 PM

Tatsuma
I don't reject any of them out of hands like Reform or Conservative Jews.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not at all what Reform and Conservative Jews believe. There are no commandments that they reject out of hand. However, personal reflection and reinterpretation on mitzvot is central to Reform. It's a very 'Protestant' way of thinking but I think it's healthier than orthodoxy (little 'o') in that in makes your relationship with God more personal. But we can leave the faith <--> acts debate for another time.

El_Perro		2006-12-14 01:46:09 PM

Tatsuma: An anti-semite? How exactly am I an anti-semite?

Statements like this:
Quality, not quantity. Numbers don't matter, unless it's about good yidden following all the mitzvots.

may be interpreted as anti-semitic in a way. You take doctrinal differences between Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism, pronounce Orthodox Judaism as the only way to be a real Jew, and say basically that Conservative and Reform Jews can/should fall off the face of the planet, religion-wise. Your sentiment discounts the faith of millions of Jews because they don't conform to your belief of what makes one Jewish and what Jewish law is.

Tatsuma		2006-12-14 03:17:27 PM

El_Perro: may be interpreted as anti-semitic in a way.

No, unless you're trying to make an arse out of yourself

. You take doctrinal differences between Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism, pronounce Orthodox Judaism as the only way to be a real Jew

No I don't. I claim that Orthodox Judaism is the only branch of Judaism that actually follows Torah

and say basically that Conservative and Reform Jews can/should fall off the face of the planet, religion-wise

I say they will and are doing it themselves by intermarriage and assimilation

Kaeishiwaza: To the best of my knowledge, this is not at all what Reform and Conservative Jews believe. There are no commandments that they reject out of hand.

They do. It's basically "Do the mitzvot you feel like doing, the rest doesn't matter it's all up to you"

El_Perro		2006-12-14 05:04:55 PM

Tatsuma: No, unless you're trying to make an arse out of yourself

If you're going to insult me, know what the fark your'e talking about and don't say things like....

No I don't. I claim that Orthodox Judaism is the only branch of Judaism that actually follows Torah

and...

They do. It's basically "Do the mitzvot you feel like doing, the rest doesn't matter it's all up to you"

Yes, Reform Judaism, to my knowledge, does not "require" its followers to follow halacha.

Conservative Judaism, on the other hand, does require observance of halacha. The difference between Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism, from a doctrinal standpoint, is that the two branches disagree as to what constitutes halacha, whether certain aspects (primarily things that are based more on tradition and less on Torah) can ever change, and how halacha should be applied in "modern" situations.

Conservative Judaism differs from Orthodox Judaism in its interpretation of halacha and the mitzvot. It does NOT in any way say "Do the mitzvot you feel like doing, the rest don't matter it's all up to you." To make that statement shows your ignorance of Conservative Jewish doctrine, and frankly makes you look like an arse, not me.

I say they will and are doing it themselves by intermarriage and assimilation

No, you say they will and are doing it themselves by intermarriage and assimilation, and that it doesn't matter because it's quantity not quality that matters. That is more than just a reflection of what is happening, it's a value judgment that effectively discounts the faith of millions of Jews because their beliefs don't conform with yours.

Tatsuma		2006-12-14 05:48:28 PM

El_Perro: Conservative Judaism, on the other hand, does require observance of halacha. The difference between Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism, from a doctrinal standpoint, is that the two branches disagree as to what constitutes halacha, whether certain aspects (primarily things that are based more on tradition and less on Torah) can ever change, and how halacha should be applied in "modern" situations.

Conservative Judaism differs from Orthodox Judaism in its interpretation of halacha and the mitzvot. It does NOT in any way say "Do the mitzvot you feel like doing, the rest don't matter it's all up to you." To make that statement shows your ignorance of Conservative Jewish doctrine, and frankly makes you look like an arse, not me.

Oh, they absolutely do. I was talking to a conservative "convert", who had been converted for many years

He wouldn't have his children circumcised because he figured "it's not important in Judaism"

They drive on Shabbat, accept Gay rabbis and don't keep kosher.

They don't care about Halacha.

El_Perro		2006-12-14 07:07:48 PM

Tatsuma: Oh, they absolutely do. I was talking to a conservative "convert", who had been converted for many years

He wouldn't have his children circumcised because he figured "it's not important in Judaism"

They drive on Shabbat, accept Gay rabbis and don't keep kosher.

They don't care about Halacha.

a) anecdotes don't prove a damn thing.

b) I'm not talking about what some Conservative Jews do. I'm talking about the doctrinal differences between Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism. Conservative Judaism, as a branch of the religion, cares about Halacha. They have different interpretations about Halacha at some points (re: Gay rabbis...though, you'll note, that is a point of HUGE contention within the Conservative Jewish movement), and there are some who may consider themselves "Conservative Jews" who do not follow Halacha, but that does not mean that Conservative Judaism, as a branch of Judaism, does not care about Halacha, and it certainly does not mean that Conservative Judaism is a different religion/is not "Judaism," as you've argued.

But, by all means, keep spouting off anecdotes and pretending you know what your'e talking about....