Tatsuma
What if I a white male, legal citizen of both Germany and the USA I became a Jew, could I exercise this right?

Or what if I was a Jewish person by family heritage but was an atheist, could I then still exercise this right?

People is the Islamic world are *required* to fight a Jihad which is defined as a "constant struggle against infidels and non believers" according to the Al Arebia University in Alexandria Egypt. Therefore, they are taught from a young age that Jews and Christians are pigs and monsters. They teach them this as nursery rhymes, ask any Muslim who grew up there! Even non practicing Muslims have this engraved in their head.

So they hate and hope for death of Jews because who wouldn't want to kill a monster? That is why they are proud when they kill civilians because they are taught that they are killing monsters.

The most important thing is for someone in Islam to redefine the concept of Jihad, and reformulate Islam as a religion where peace is actually an option. This will take a true act of God. Until then, there will always be someone to fight externally and someone to blame for internal problems, just like Editor in Chief of Al-Jazeera said.

lolmao666

You obviously have no idea what their education system teaches them all from a very young age. Not to mention their TV. Try visiting
http://www.memri.org/ or
http://www.memritv.org/

And tell me the jews made them do it.

3boys: /and get out of his moms basement.
//and get a job

Swing 'n a miss. I'm sure I've worked more shiat jobs for less pay than you.

Sloth_DC: Well...Gitmo is disturbing, but you have to understand there is still the boundary of citizen/non-citizen there.

For how long? Once you give a government a certain authority, it will not be rescinded without violence.

Uncle Karl: The swiss lent money to the Nazi's do you think the swiss are Nazi's?

They were complicit with and collaborators with the Nazis. I think we should look down on that kind of behavior.

Hyggelig: There has to be a religious, ethnic, or national paranoia or sense of entitlement - the group is either in danger or has special privledges, or both. T

Gays. Muslims.

The second is an alliance between the oligarchy and the lumpen. Good examples of this are the relationship between Syrian and Iranian leadership and Hezbollah and the Saudis funding the Madrassas.

And the US defense contractors and the policios they purchase.

lolmao666: But have zionists accepted palestinians as human beings or their right to have a palestine? Not at all.

Are you sure about that.

So i'm a little bashing Israël, but i'm as bashing Israël as i would have bash south africa during the apartheid.

No. If that caricature is anything to go by, you're bashing Israel mostly because of an affinity for biased sources.

Tatsuma
OK, then that law seems not too bad at all.
Next question, What proof do they use in the first case to confirm I converted and in the second case that I did not lie about having a Jewish mother?
/it is mother right?
//That is the way we catholics do it, and I was told that came from the Jewish tradition.

Or what if I was a Jewish person by family heritage but was an atheist, could I then still exercise this right?

yes

It has to be mommy who's Jewish, or her mommy - I don't know how many generations one is allowed to trace back to determine Jewishness, though.

Uncle Karl
If I break into your house, attack the fire ants in your back yard that are making it onto my property and in the process blow the roof off of your house. How appreciative are you going to be? What if I also killed one of your kids and still failed to rid us both of the fire ants?

What an awful analogy. Hizbollah as fire ants? How about:

"I break into your house to attack the homicidal vagrants you're letting squat there who have kidnapped one of my children."

Well yeah, I'd break in and blow your roof off and it'd suck if one of your family members got killed too. But you better believe that if I thought my child was being held in your house I'd tear it down stone by stone. And you'd still have to explain why you were letting homicidal vagrants squat in your backyard in the first place.

3boys: You obviously have no idea what their education system teaches them all from a very young age. Not to mention their TV. Try visiting
http://www.memri.org/ or
http://www.memritv.org/

And tell me the jews made them do it.

Schools aren't teaching Palestinian children anything. They've been closed down for upwards of 6 months because the teachers weren't being paid.

Uncle Karl: Or what if I was a Jewish person by family heritage but was an atheist, could I then still exercise this right?

Yes. I'm Jewish because my mom is one too. But I don't believe in God, or practice any of the Jewish traditions that don't involve good food or wine, and I exercised that right.

lolmao666: A few points:
- Palestinians blow themselves up in desperation because of all they live, the oppression, some because they are nut. Zionists needs to understand that, the effect they make on people with their apartheid.

"Palestinians" started blowing themselves (and Israelis) up before there was an occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Keep this in mind as you formulate your thoughts.

- People say that palestinians don't want to negociate.. here' the real negociation: img247.imageshack.us

Nice racist cartoon.

- Zionists say that people need to accept Israël as a state. But have zionists accepted palestinians as human beings

Yes.

or their right to have a palestine? Not at all. Thanks zionists.

You do realize that Israel is the mideast nation that has done the most to create a Palestinian State, right? I mean, one was supposed to be formed in 1947 but Jordan invaded and annexed it. In contrast, Israel has been making every effort to create a Palestine.

- What give Israël the right to exist?

Because A) the British gave them the land to form a nation and B) They've been able to hold it.

Because they lived there 2000 years ago? Totally wrong. The jews now in Israël and the jews that lived there 2000 years ago are totally different, because the jews now are from western europe and north africa, not from the middle-east.

So, tell me, before Jordan was created, much as Israel was, how many Hashemites had ruled that territory before and how recently? Or is your hatred for artificial nations reserved solely for Israel?

- People says that the arabs want to throw Israël in the sea. They don't want to throw them in the sea, they want their lands back.

The PLO was formed in 1964. The Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank started in 1967. You do the math. Oh - and when, exactly, was there ever a "Palestinian State" which held those lands? I mean, if they want their land back, when did they own it?

- The Balfour declaration isn't even respected, because if you would have read it, you would know that it was stating a two states solution, Israël and Palestine, but you know the zionists...

Actually, it was Israel and Jordan. Jesus, but you're ignorant on this topic.

- Israël is a real apartheid state, just look at all the racists laws(in french).

Nice blank page you linked to.
And Israel has *nothing* approaching apartheid. However, all those Arab-League States do have nice ethnically-cleansed populations now that they've gotten rid of their Jews. If only they could find a final solution...

- Seriously, what's this shiat of elected people in your holy book? You really believe this crap? Ah! That's why you can do anything, it's god's work! Anyone attacking or not supporting Israël is an enemy of God right?
- Like URSS a wall of shame was built.

1) It's USSR, you illiterate monkey.
2) Yes, it a wall of shame - illustrating the shame that the West Bank and Gaza residents cannot stop themselves from blowing up the Israelis.

Kaeishiwaza: "I break into your house to attack the homicidal vagrants you're letting squat there who have kidnapped one of my children."

"I break into your house to attack homicidal vagrants who became homicidal vagrants when I kicked them out of their house down the block. I have no idea why he hates me, but I did kill his wife and kids 20 years ago. Oops, sorry about that. Anyway, it's totally unfair that he throws rocks at me just because I break into your house all the time to try to kill him."

lolmao666

HellbentForLeather is probably a troll.

lolmao666 is probably an idiot.

/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud

aww I don't get a czarangelus response.... booo

/entertained

Uncle Karl: The swiss lent money to the Nazi's do you think the swiss are Nazi's?

czarangelus: They were complicit with and collaborators with the Nazis. I think we should look down on that kind of behavior.

They were neutral. It's not exactly a crime against humanity to not ally with your country in every war. That's like saying the Germans are collaborators because they won't help us fight in Iraq.

czarangelus

Attacks on israel started before any occupation.

Kaeishiwaza
OK, fine we will use your analogy. If you were the one with the squatters living in your home that you did not like, but were afraid of, would you fight back to protect your home?
Remember I would be using cluster bombs on your back yard and have already ripped up your driveway.

Sloth_DC: 1) It's USSR, you illiterate monkey.

From the linking in French I would assume he's not a native English speaker, and it's URSS in Spanish so I guess it's the same in French.

Sloth_DC
Careful there buddy, we are starting to agree way too much.

Kaeishiwaza


I want you to tell me which Middle Eastern problem(s), in the list I gave, will be fixed by changing 'the existence of Israel as a political entity as it currently exists.'

Tatsuma
[basically the same diatribe]

No, because I've never referred to any of the items in your list, nor have I ever suggested removing Israel or Jews or anything like that as the solution to anything, therefore, I'm not going to defend those arguments that I have never made.

The only thing that I have suggested is that the political organization of the territory currently occupied by Israelis and Palestinians is in need of change and that Israel is probably going to have to budge a bit in that department. Well, that's just farking obvious.

It's pretty telling to me that on the other side of this debate, that suggestion immediately launches into rabid anti-Arab tirades, claims of cultural superiority, absolute refusal of any alteration of the status quo except that "those dirty, ignorant Arabs who have made no contribution to civilization need to get their collective shiat together."

And *I'M* the one who should feel the need to justify my position? Excuse me?

I can't believe I put off work to discuss with people like this.

lolmao666

Very informative with the neo nazi cartoons of evil hook nose jews in gabardine plotting. If there's any justice or sense inherit in the moderators or fark at all, that should result in banning.

If someone posted KKK materials with guys in black face eating watermelon and looking at white women, would that be accepted by the fark community as part of reasonable discussion? Anyone? Anyone? Ferris?

Oh but we're just talking about lying filthy kikes, which the filter is fine with, not other epithets which the filter finds grossly offensive.

What the fark.

Next we're going to be getting long cut and pastes from the highly authentic historical document 'the protocols of the elders of zion' - fark this really... it's hopeless trying to have open communication about these issues.

I'm going back to work like I should have done last time, instead I get dragged down to the level of trying to rebut antisemitic farking idiots (apologies to those here who engaged in reasonable, respectful, and humane discussion, however much we disagree).

BoozePenguin: Attacks on israel started before any occupation.

Dude, large numbers of Jews moving to Palestine is an attack. You know how you consider it an attack on America that there's 12 million undocumented Mexicans in this country? Well, the same thing happens when millions of Jews move into an area full of Arab Muslims. Forcably annexing land through a population shift is as good as any other act of violence at provoking conflict.

some people say: From the linking in French I would assume he's not a native English speaker, and it's URSS in Spanish so I guess it's the same in French.

Ah, good point. Yes, i see how it could be constructed that way in French...

Sloth_DC: They were neutral. It's not exactly a crime against humanity to not ally with your country in every war. That's like saying the Germans are collaborators because they won't help us fight in Iraq.

Or saying that the Germans are collaborators because they won't help Iraq fight us...

lolmao666
You just fly in from Tehran? How was the trip?

czarangelus

So because they have been closed for 6 MONTHS that means they could not possibly been brain washed BEFORE? Or since 67? My god man, get out of your moms basement!!!! See the real world!!

http://www.eufunding.org/Textbooks/NewSchoolbooks.html
Such wonderfull text books.

You're alright, BlindMan. You're alright.

/suck it libs
//Toatl Fark stud

"claims of cultural superiority"

The women from the arab world that I know would tell you that first world culture is, indeed superior. I guess thats cause they aren't dominated and repressed by the powerful over here.

Or lashed for going outside the house with men who they aren't related too.

Or forced to wear Islamic headress.

Or living in a society where spouse abuse is accepted.

But I dunno, maybe they're wrong.

I, for one, would like to see the English al Jazeera news broadcasts.

BoozePenguin: Attacks on israel started before any occupation.

czarangelus: Dude, large numbers of Jews moving to Palestine is an attack.

Define "Palestine", please? Do you mean Gaza and the West Bank? The entire Mandate territory (the above plus Israel + Jordan), or do you mean something else? Because if you mean Gaza and the West Bank, umm, just how many Jews do you think moved to Jordanian West Bank and Egyptian Gaza? Something more than roughly zero?

czarangelus

Hyggelig: There has to be a religious, ethnic, or national paranoia or sense of entitlement - the group is either in danger or has special privledges, or both. T

Gays. Muslims.

I never denied that there is a potential for fascism in the U.S. If fascism becomes a reality in the U.S., it will be the christianists who led the charge. There's a whiff of fascism to be sniffed when Bill O'Reilly bloviates artlessly about the heathen, degenerate secular humanists. But these groups never seem to get what they want, do they? Even with 8 years of Reagan and 6 years of Bush Jr. they haven't been able to bring back something seemingly benign like prayer in school. The best they can hope to do is preserve the status quo.

The second is an alliance between the oligarchy and the lumpen. Good examples of this are the relationship between Syrian and Iranian leadership and Hezbollah and the Saudis funding the Madrassas.

And the US defense contractors and the policios they purchase.

This is a non-sequitur.

czarangelus

Dude, large numbers of Jews moving to Palestine is an attack. You know how you consider it an attack on America that there's 12 million undocumented Mexicans in this country? Well, the same thing happens when millions of Jews move into an area full of Arab Muslims. Forcably annexing land through a population shift is as good as any other act of violence at provoking conflict.


Spoken like a loyal consumer of the BBC. Man, you HAVE to go to college to become so ignorant.

Simply amazing.

Incredible.


/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud

Uncle Karl: In an actual war the Lebanese army and its citizens would have been fighting back. Israel did not want this, yet it did not secure the aid of the Lebanese government. That is like having your cake and eating it too. Either you invaded a sovereign nation and therefore are at war against it or you did not.
The Lebanese army could be fighting back, but it chose not to, because Hizballah was practically in charge of the area, and it was more capable. Hizballah pretty much owns South Lebanon. Before the war, they were the only meaningful military presence there, and they were the ones taking care of the border. Moreover, the war was mostly air strikes and artillery, and the ground war was mostly in the South, so the ground fighting rarely got out of Hizballah's "turf".
Lebanon could stay away while Hizballah did all the fighting, and being that kind of organization it is, it was more effective, and could get away with dirtier fighting.
If I break into your house, attack the fire ants in your back yard that are making it onto my property and in the process blow the roof off of your house. How appreciative are you going to be? What if I also killed one of your kids and still failed to rid us both of the fire ants?
I don't really like this analogy. The relationship between Hizballah and the Lebanese people is very different, and the country of Lebanon is too complicated to be described with a single house.
This is what they did. They invaded a sovereign nation and did not want a war with it.
They wanted a war with the people who were actually causing trouble. They didn't want to end Lebanon as a country, defeat the Lebanese army or exterminate the Lebanese people. They wanted to curb Hizballah. Fighting a war specifically against Hizballah sends that message. "We won't hesitate to strike hard at proxy groups that act within your borders, public opinion be damned" is more effective than "If you dare host one of those proxy groups, we'll personally and thoroughly kick your ass, along with the proxy group".
Practically, the message was more like the latter. Hizballah has its roots too deep, and weapons aren't fine enough, so the majority of lifes and property destroyed were civilian.

"large numbers of Jews moving to Palestine is an attack"

Yeah! just like those mexicans! Lets murder their children, launch attacks on their children to get even! Better yet, lets push the mexicans into the sea.

The mexican invasion must be stopped!

since you're under attack from the mexicans, why don't you kill some of them for your country?

Well, actualy since you're nation occupies mexican land, they should be allowed to "attack" you. Although, if trying to find work in you're nation is you're idea of an "attack" you've obviously never seen a real one.

Would you say that targeted killings of mexicans is acceptable?

BoozePenguin

I'm sure they prefer having their homes bulldozed while still occupied in this "first world" paradise of Israeli control.

That's what I mean about the blame being on both sides of this conflict. I'm not an apologist for all the violence and bullshiat on EITHER side of this conflict. But, somehow, point out ANYTHING the Israelis have done that might, maybe, just maybe have contributed to escalation and all of a sudden you're an apologist for every conceivable atrocity from Marrakesh to Jakarta.

What-farking-ever.

BoozePenguin: Yeah! just like those mexicans! Lets murder their children, launch attacks on their children to get even! Better yet, lets push the mexicans into the sea.

You're confused. It's the Israelis who are trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea. I've seen the maps; the maps don't lie. When you have to go through 5 Israeli checkpoints to see your family, you are under oppression and are being driven from your homeland. When was the last time you heard about an "illegal Arab settlement in Tel Aviv?"

equusdc

I'm not against critisizing Israel, many Israelis do this themselves. Thats where the differance is, Palestinians can't speak out against the gangsters that rule them, so they have no way of bringing about peaceful change. Factions have to dominate each other to bring about change, and then the faction on top is generaly more worried about maintaining power then improving the living conditions of the people they are supposed to represent.

Arafat is the perfect example of this.

Tatsuma,

You misunderstood me. Being a (practicing) Jew, would qualify you under my new right of return system. But it is pretty easy to remove the religius part out of Jewishness... Look at me, I am a Jew, yet I am also an athiest. Just like many of the founding zionist fathers (even if they were afraid to admit it in public).

And you misunderstood me again. The new right of return law, would always apply when a Jew is fleeing immiment danger.


Kaeishiwaza,

Think about how silly that is. . . That's like saying someone can be Christian without believing in Christ or Muslim without believing in Mohammed. Judaism is a religion, it's not a state of mind...

Look, it is pretty simple. I am a Jew. I do not believe in God. I do not keep kosher. I have no problem dating girls who are not Jewish. Yet, I am ethnically Jewish. I know Jewish history. I am fluent in Hebrew. I have read the Old Testament. I love Albert Einstein and Mel Brooks.

czarangelus



No suicide bombers = no check points.


/Yes, its islams fault
//death cult

BlindMan
Meh. Numbers are in thousands

/seriously need to leave.

We've got to decide which angle we're playing here, either 'the land was full of people and cities and they were all arabs' or 'the land was basically empty of people and there were no cities until shortly before the establishment of Israel.

This is an Excluded middle. You can have a choice outside of these two extremes. There are peer-reviewed figures for these populations. No need to say either basically empty or completely full. These terms are vague. Use the numbers.

Again, the 1937 Peel guys felt that the land they were offering to Israel as a jewish homeland was majority jewish at the time


Remember, the Peel Commission (it was a recommendation, much like the Baker Hamilton report of today) was rejected by the
British Government. 1939 White paper was what represented the british government.


1922 census figures are good

However, Link
"Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions.

was written by Herbert Samuel (first Jew to govern in the Land of Israel in 2,000 years.)Link

I'm sure, 750,000 jews had to leave the rest of the middle east after 1948, and they aren't counted as refugees and no one seems to think they were wronged

Present some figures for this. Im sure there will be plenty that say they were wronged.

Ive enjoyed our chat and look forward to future encounters with you. Seriously, I have to get to work.
/actually turning off fark

3boys: No suicide bombers = no check points.

no checkpoints = no suicide bombers

I don't recall this ever being a goal of israel's. I recall Israel wanting to be left alone.

It's the arabs who said they wanted to drive the jews into the sea, before any occupation, and it's the arabs who sing "we knock on the gates of heaven with the skulls of jews".

Now, back to my point, if the mexicans are invading you're nation, why aren't you killing them?

"no checkpoints = no suicide bombers"

attacks on Israel started before any occupation.

Nice try

czarangelus: You're confused. It's the Israelis who are trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea.

Wait, the sea is west of Israel, and the West Bank is east of Israel. Sheeit, they're gonna have to push them through Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Oman if they go that way.
(You are bloody insane, btw)

I've seen the maps; the maps don't lie.

Yes, the truth is out there, but the lies are in your head. Let me repeat: No Arab nation has done more to facilitate the creation of a Palestinian State than Israel. Fark, Jordan occupied the West Bank for 20 years - why didn't *they* create a Palestinian State?

Party Boy: Present some figures for this. Im sure there will be plenty that say they were wronged.

There you go.

The reason why they are not refugees is that Israel exists.

woops, occupation = checkpoints

some people say: Party Boy: Present some figures for this. Im sure there will be plenty that say they were wronged.

There you go.

The reason why they are not refugees is that Israel exists.

And to be fair, the reason many of them had to flee their countries is that Israel exists.

BoozePenguin: attacks on Israel started before any occupation.

There wasn't Israel before any occupation. Point, set, match.

Sloth_DC: Fark, Jordan occupied the West Bank for 20 years - why didn't *they* create a Palestinian State?

Because none of the other Arab states are particularly magnanimous either! Israel shouldn't be comparable to these other countries, yet somehow it is. One of my favorite segments from the Daily Show was judging different Middle Eastern nations on a "flammability index," and they had Israel right at the top for provoking violence right next to Syria and Iran. This is an accurate assessment of the situation. Israel is easily as damaging to regional peace.