BlindMan
Its palestine, not conflated with transjordan/jordan. There are other academic works on this. Scholch has similar figures.

Asteron: Im not convinced... don't remember seeing any pyramids in Israel last time I was there. But I won't claim to be an expert in Ancient History. The Jewish claim though is at least 2500 years old.

Remember the Canaanites? Pop open your Bible and look at how many tribes the Hebrews committed genocide upon.

OK. Jordan is 70% Palestinian. Jordan was East Palestine until 1929. Why not set up a Palestinian state in Jordan?

alienchickenpie
He was referring to something else. The British imposed severe limitations on Jewish immigration to the Mandate. These limitations prevented European Jews from escaping the Holocaust, both indirectly and directly- there are several accounts of ships full of Jewish immigrants that were denied entry to the Mandate, and the immigrants ended up in Nazi death camps.

No one wanted to take the Jews in. Take the refugee ship St. Louis. It was bound for Cuba with 900 Jews, but was suddenly denied access to the port. The Jews on board, knowing their impending doom should they return to Europe, appealed to the US port authority in Florida. They were denied, and returned to Europe where they all were murdered.

Don't put all the blame on one person.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html

HellBentForLeather

wait.... are you actually signing your posts? Like, a sig? On Fark?

That is the gayest thing I've ever seen. That's like, gayer then two men having buttsecks.

Sloth_DC: Hmm, vague attribution to "Israli minister." No hint as to which one, or when. And a google search on the phrase returns zero hits. I smell bullshiat.

it was on TotalFark the other day but I can't access it now. shiat like that never hits the main page though, obviously. I don't remember the specific details, but he did say that Judaism and Zionism were necessary components to being an Israeli citizen.

Somacandra

stevenboof

Is Turkey not in the Middle East or not a Secular Democracy?

Yes, Turkey is in the Middle East and it is a Secular state. Turkey had the good fortune to be the home of one Kemal Ataturk a while back....

It must also be said that while Israel is (at least nominally) a secular state, it is also a Jewish state. And it imposes a second-class citizenship on its Arab residents, similar to how the Apartheid regime in South Africa was, except without the 'homelands' and the outlawing of opposition political parties. I would HARDLY call that a 'true democracy.' Turkey has no such restrictions.

Slogans replace facts here.

Arabs in Israel are full citizens, can vote (have representatives in the Knesset), and have full religious freedom. It is true that there is certain land in politically important cities such as jerusalem that is restrcited for sale to arabs (although this has been legally challenged in recent years), but try being a jew and buying land in the west bank. That's a political reality, but to classify that as apartheid, is wildly unfair and again, at odds with the actual experience of arabs and others in Israel.

If you don't want to bother with all the details, just know this - arab citizens in Israel, of which there are many, have more individual rights and participation in government than in any ARAB country in the middle east. This is indisputable and I really don't know how the case can be made any stronger than that.

Uncle Karl

What you are suggesting is akin to giving your lunch money to the school bully so he wont hurt you instead of standing up for your self. Thats how dhimmis are made... along with snakes, snails, and pupy dog tails.

shipud: OK. Jordan is 70% Palestinian. Jordan was East Palestine until 1929. Why not set up a Palestinian state in Jordan?

Huge parts of the Southwestern United States were Mexico until the late 1800s. Why not set up a Mexican substate within the USA? Oh right, because people in the USA would go batshiat insane. Same reason, here. Nobody wants millions of poor immigrants shoved into their country, disrupting elections and civil order. Plus, do you really think you'd drag all the palestinians off their homeland without extreme violence? I think not.

Lucky13: who gives a flying fark if its secular or not... secular does not automatically mean its good and religious does not automatically mean its bad...

aww poor little uneducated, bigot atheist farkers

Actually, it's often the religious folk who benefit most from a secular state. I mean, think about it, if this were a truly Christian nation, would you be free to practice your brand of Mecca-worshipping mumbo-jumbo?

czarangelus: That's not a country. That's a gulag archepeligo.

Let me guess - an early negotiating map for the Camp David discussions on what territory to hand over to the PA as the first step to creating a Palestinian State?

The Palestine/ Transjordan conflation argument is resurfacing

why?

3boys: What you are suggesting is akin to giving your lunch money to the school bully so he wont hurt you instead of standing up for your self. Thats how dhimmis are made... along with snakes, snails, and pupy dog tails.

If you're really a conservative, maybe you wouldn't find being a dhimmi so bad. You're free to practice your own religion, and the tax rate maxes out at 10%. I'll bet you're paying more than that now. Small government conservative for an Islamic USA!

BlindMan

Clarify leases versus purchasing land and who these leases are controlled by. Theres a deep history and its also part of the grievances.

stevenboof

Is Turkey not in the Middle East or not a Secular Democracy?


It has the trappings of one but is a marginal and unreliable member of NATO where the pope has to be surrounded by massive security or he'll be killed. An officially 'secular' government stance and a secular population are two different things.

Wherever islam is concentrated, you will find insanity.

Still, Al-Jazeera is more sane than the BBC. I would probably put about it on par with the NYT, CBS, etc.


/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud

Sloth_DC: Let me guess - an early negotiating map for the Camp David discussions on what territory to hand over to the PA as the first step to creating a Palestinian State?

If Israeli soldiers stick their fingers up your ass to see if you're carrying a detonator on the way to your parents' house for Ramadan, you live in an oversized gulag. What do you think the walls are for?

HellbentForLeather: It has the trappings of one but is a marginal and unreliable member of NATO where the pope has to be surrounded by massive security or he'll be killed.

Were you talking about Turkey or the United States, again?

Wherever islam is concentrated, you will find insanity.

No. Insanity comes from socio-economic conditions, same place where the fundamentalist Islam comes from.

Somacandra
When you do that, it loses all meaning and validity. And that is a dangerous thing.

Word

/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud

czarangelus: Huge parts of the Southwestern United States were Mexico until the late 1800s. Why not set up a Mexican substate within the USA? Oh right, because people in the USA would go batshiat insane


But the Southwestern US is not overwhelmingly populated by Mexicans. Also, the Palestinians have actually tried to set up a state in Jordan, and were crushed by the ruling Hashemite minority.

Furthermore, alienchickenpie, FDR cut immigration in 1939 to almost zero, because, you guessed it, we had just gotten out of the Great Depression.

czarangelus

This maybe crazy but why not listen to someon who has actually lived it? http://www.shoebat.com/

3boys
No, what I am suggesting is educating the bully and helping him find a job so that he has better things to do than beat you up.

Think of it this way, most first world nations have some sort of social-welfare system. Why? 2 things here decency and and it limits crime. Also most of these systems incorporate some sort of education in an effort to get the person working.

This would be like that except for a whole bunch of people.

Another option would be to give them one continuous stretch of land somewhere. Ideally Antarctica and then place Israel on the north pole. This way the two troublesome children would be as far apart as possible.

czarangelus: Insanity comes from socio-economic conditions, same place where the fundamentalist Islam comes from

You mean the rich Egyptian and Saudi kids who crashed into the WTC and that were funded by a Saudi millionaire?

Richie Rich Osama, poor little rich boy

Party Boy

BlindMan
Its palestine, not conflated with transjordan/jordan. There are other academic works on this. Scholch has similar figures.

If by Palestine you mean modern day Israel, then I suspect those numbers are simply flawed. Some variation did come into play due to the fact that modern day israel (1967 borders) is somewhat larger than what was originally offered under the partition plans. But that modern day Israel was 97% arab in 1900? You simply couldn't explain where all the people who are there today came from today based on that. 19th century demographic data is sketchy, but Israel certainly has public records on the amount of immigration.

Even were these numbers accurate (and they contradict any I've seen) they would suggest nothing but that basically everyone got to modern day Israel lately, and so it really was just empty land prior to that. So the whole thing about historic palestinian era flourishing with residents pre 1880 would be pretty ludicrous to begin with.

By the way the main people that contend that are hard line right wing jews, and I think they're mistaken on this. In my opinion those numbers don't wash.

3boys: This maybe crazy but why not listen to someon who has actually lived it?

Why should I be interested in the words of a traitor and collaborator, who sold out his own people to get a comfortable life with the enemy?

shipud: But the Southwestern US is not overwhelmingly populated by Mexicans. Also, the Palestinians have actually tried to set up a state in Jordan, and were crushed by the ruling Hashemite minority.

Well, the United States supports vicious minority regimes all over the Middle East. The House of Saud, Reza Shah, the Vichy government of Iraq and Afghanistan...

czarangelus: If Israeli soldiers stick their fingers up your ass to see if you're carrying a detonator on the way to your parents' house for Ramadan, you live in an oversized gulag.

So, let me see if I understand correctly. If a North Korean citizen flies to the US for the Chinese New Year, is not the US Customs likely to stick their finger up his ass to see if he's carrying a detonator? Does that mean North Korea is a huge gulag? (Switch the nationalities after you've worked that one out)

What do you think the walls are for?

Stay on your side of the wall, and you don't have to worry about it. They claim to want their damn country created. Well, countries have borders. Now that Israel is creating the border and giving them their farking country, we have more complaining? Fark off.

czarangelus: Well, the United States supports vicious minority regimes all over the Middle East. The House of Saud, Reza Shah, the Vichy government of Iraq and Afghanistan...


Oh. so you agree the natural place for a Palestinian state is in Jordan.

A jam from from Al-Jazeera

/Great service...
//Should be shown to everyone, cause it is farking hillarious...

Uncle Karl
Ideally Antarctica and then place Israel on the north pole. This way the two troublesome children would be as far apart as possible.

I like the cut of your jib, sailor.

shipud: But the Southwestern US is not overwhelmingly populated by Mexicans.

*blink* Ever spent a lot of time in the Southwest? Happen to notice the skin-tone is not like the rest of the country?

czarangelus: Remember the Canaanites? Pop open your Bible and look at how many tribes the Hebrews committed genocide upon.

If the Canaanites want to stake a claim then I won't question it's validity. Suffice it to say, most civilizations from that time are not around this day. But I agree that it is remarkable the jews still are.

BlindMan

Read the sources. Plenty of peer-reviewed information there

czarangelus

Wherever islam is concentrated, you will find insanity.

No. Insanity comes from socio-economic conditions, same place where the fundamentalist Islam comes from.

People are poor and oppressed all over the world (and yes the palestinians are terribly oppressed although you and I would probably differ about who is oppressing them) and yet all these people are not opting to murder kids on the schoolbus while committing suicide. You've got that sort of thing in Chechnya... but well, they're muslims too.

Sloth_DC: Does that mean North Korea is a huge gulag?

Uh, yeah. We've known that for years haven't we? In this case it's not entirely a US creation, but that's exactly what it is. In a wider sense, borders just give oligarchs and excuse to make poor people murder each other and to manipulate global trade to create palaces for themselves while enslaving others.

shipud: Oh. so you agree the natural place for a Palestinian state is in Jordan.

No... how many thousands of people do you think would die in an attempt to evacuate Palestinians? Would you let some soldier grab you from your house and throw you in a new and hostile country because they don't want you living in your father's and your father's father's homeland? I think not.

czarangelus

Nobody wants millions of poor immigrants shoved into their country, disrupting elections and civil order.

You lie.

Ask any liberal what they think about the Minute Men. Ask the BBC as well.

/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud

czarangelus

You are a total dip shiat. Go back to your moms basement.

/never said i was a conservative, just realistic

Somacandra: Arabs in Israel are full citizens, can vote (have representatives in the Knesset), and have full religious freedom.

If true, this is genuinely news to me. I understand there were some Supreme Court cases that have been arguing this, but I did not realize that this had been granted. If you could point me to some documentation, I would be much obliged, and happy to see this having been abandoned.


Uh, no. It has been the case since 1948. Israeli Arabs have always had representatives in the Knesset, either under paties identifying themselves as "national Arab", the Communist party, and other parties. Currently most Israeli centrist and left wing parties have a coupls of Arab MKs.

/obligatory

BlindMan: People are poor and oppressed all over the world (and yes the palestinians are terribly oppressed although you and I would probably differ about who is oppressing them) and yet all these people are not opting to murder kids on the schoolbus while committing suicide. You've got that sort of thing in Chechnya... but well, they're muslims too.

How about life in the ghetto? They're murdering each other, school-aged, all the time. But no, that's because they're negroes right? It's always something other than the real issue; it's always Islam or black skin or being a "lazy Mexican." The fact that violence stems from people's unmet needs doesn't impact on you at all.

BlindMan
basically everyone got to modern day Israel lately, and so it really was just empty land prior to that. So the whole thing about historic palestinian era flourishing with residents pre 1880 would be pretty ludicrous to begin with.

Its more than 400,000 people, not basically empty. The people that were there, and ignoring their concomitant demands for a state is a big problem we see today.

3boys: You are a total dip shiat. Go back to your moms basement.

In what fashion was that a response to what I asked? Any dime store drone can hurl abuse.

HellbentForLeather: Ask any liberal what they think about the Minute Men. Ask the BBC as well.

ROFL. The Minute Men stop two or three Mexicans, miss thousands, and it's considered an unqualified success. Try coming up with a solution that works not mindless PR and maybe someone will listen to you.

Why is hellbentforleather so gay?

Asteron

Canaan was a province of Egypt before the Israelites showed up and, last I checked, Egypt is still around...and not so long ago, marched over Sinai and took a bit of it back.

Further, Rome kicked their asses out going on two thousand years ago...so, while their claim may be 3200 years old, they haven't been their 2/3 of that time.

In all of history, the Israelites have controlled that stretch of dirt for less time than parliamentary government has been present in Iceland...

BlindMan
In places where people are actually poor crime rates are very high.

HellbentForLeather
Ask a conservative if he wants to pay $4/lb of oranges or chicken.Also ask if he wants to pay a baby sitter or lawn worker less than is allowed by law. Then you will see that they love illegal immigrants.

/suck it
//by it I mean my schlong

Uncle Karl: I personally think Israel would be best served by building hospitals, schools and factories for the Palestinians. If they had jobs and money the whole religion thing would die down a bit. It is sort of a turn the other cheek thing, no idea where I got that idea :).

Do you know how many Palestinians were employed in Israel? When the intifada started up they lost that and now have no economy left. It doesnt help that their leaders do not serve the interests of their own people.

With all the aid the Palestinians get they should build roads and not bombs. The schools need to teach peace and not hate. I remember the UN wanted to donate medicine and supplies to the Palestinians but they refused and insisted it be in cash so they can use it to finance terror.