that if you dont like something, you should stop complaining and move out of your country.

I understand now that is not what you meant. But that is, very strongly, what it originally seemed.


Okay, fair enough. I can dig that, yo.


/ respek knuckles
// etc

Condesa: but despite her stupidity, she did give me a car...


At least she didn't speak english loudly and with exagerrated hand movements adding -o to every word.

"El carro is in the parking lotto."

Actually requiring passports kills tourism trade.
--
That was my thought oo. Anyone who's seen/particpated in the mass friday-evening migration from socal to tijuana knows what the real complaint against this is -- it just aint convenient.



This is the heart of the debate.

First, you've got people saying that passport requirements hurt commerce, and second, that it just isn't convenient.


Both have merit, in a way.

They do affect commerce, because people are far more likely to go shop somewhere easy. But it's precisely because of how "easy" it is to get things - weapons, drugs, etc - in Mexico that makes it that much harder to get out.

They don't *care* what you bring in. It can't be any worse than what's already there.


As for the convenience, my personal catch-phrase (which you may use with permission only) is - Convenience is Addictive.

If you really break that down, it means this:

Convenience is desirable.

Addiction is undesirable.

If you become addicted to something desirable, it means you are indulging in or using that thing to excess - such that the desirable aspect of it is outweighed by the negative side effects.

While convenience is good, having things be *too* convenient makes us lazy, and unwilling to accept responsibility for ourselves and our actions.


Convenience is Addictive.

(contact me to buy the shirt, email in profile, all rights reserved, etc and so forth)



There is a fine line between an ordered society (which includes fairness and justice for all) and an autocracy.

An ordered society is something to strive for - an autocracy is not.


Often times, when governments are caught between wanting / needing to find a solution to a problem that has serious negative consequences for some (e.g. border control), they meet resistance from the people who do not want to be inconvenienced - and they are accused of autocracy or tyranny.

So as not to appear to be tyrannical, they withdraw or alter their plan to suit the middle ground.


Starting to sound complicated?

It is complicated.

We'll never fully solve it. I just hope that we don't destroy ourselves in the process of trying.



/ one of my other catch-phrases:
// Big Brother is inevitable.
/// not saying that's a good thing

It's also interesting to note that almost all the Farkers in the "Get a passport, D'uh!" camp live somewhere in the middle of the country, nowhere near the border.


Or in another country.

The passport issue is mainly about travel in between countries. The fact that you happen to have another large country to your north and south makes you fairly unique in the world. Most countries aren't like that, and most people outside of the US, therefore, understand the value in having a passport.

It really has very little to do with driving across the border and how easy and important that might be.

It has to do with the rights of a nation to control the traffic across their borders.

All in favour of confiscating TheSignPost's "RETURN" key, say "aye!"


Yeah, you're right, that wasn't pretty. Apologies to all for the eye strain.

this is the first step for getting national ID cards.
next you will need documents to travel state to state.

Why? When so many other countries in the world require passports but not cross-state (county/parish/whatever) controls?

Why will the US descend into state-controlled mayhem when so many other countries with passport requirements have not?

A national ID would be seen as taking power away from the States, and giving it to the Fed.

The drivers license is becoming a de facto National ID (for those who drive), due to the requirement for similar data to be collected, and similar design.


How does a National ID card give power to the Fed....?

It is just one more step in a long line of steps that go from freedom to totalitarian/authoritarian control. Not to Godwin or anything, but Nazi Germany is the model for this behaviour.


Dude, come on.


National ID / Passports don't turn a nation into Nazis. If they did, every nation on earth would be Nazis, because everywhere else except the US has them.

This logic doesn't wash....

If you think that your government is seriously attempting to control every aspect of your movement and turn you into a totalitarian state, then I don't know what to say to that.


The US government is responding to a near-impossible problem of border control versus "convenience." They may or may not be doing a bang-up job of it - time will tell. But - they are not trying to turn you into a Nazi state.

Nightjars: We can draw up the borders this way, right?

Cool! None of the four states in which I've resided (Illinois, Wisconsin, New York, and California) are in Jesusland!

/attended a week-long conference in Texas, though.

Why the hell should however many hundred years of passport-free travel between friendly nations suddenly now be such a threat? Passport enforcement isn't going to stop the illegals from crossing over (mostly just poor saps, no confirmed terrorists yet!) it is only an inconvenience to the lawful.


I think you might be trolling, either that or you're very passionate about the issue.

Your summary of the issue isn't quite right. It's true that passport control isn't going to stop illegals from crossing over, but what it will do is bring the US / Canada & US / Mexico borders in line with *every* other border on the planet.


But there's the magic word - Convenience.

See my earlier comment.... I'm not really a big fan of setting international policy on the basis of what's convenient.


The world is changing, and I really think you're over-inflating the "freedom crumbling away" aspect just because you don't want to have to flash a passport.

Passports have been around for centuries in one way or another. I really fail to see how a requirement for all people entering and leaving the US to have a passport is such a hardship, and I don't agree that it will cause "freedom to crumble."

because (in no part relating to the ID or Passports,) the people there seem to be all too willing to surrender their rights to the government, as if the government some how knows best. Here in America, we are (supposed) to tell the "governors" what to do, not the other way around.


Dude, what....? Name me a Western country (I say Western because they are culturally the most similar to the US) where the population have surrendered their rights to the government.


Frankly the US spends too much time "telling their governors what to do." You elected them, and if you don't like what they're doing, you have the right to turf them out. Beyond that, let them do what you elected them to do, and keep a watchful eye.

But don't complain about everything as though you're the expert. People rarely know as much about an issue as they think they do.

Again with the "RETURN" key?
Don't make me roll up a newspaper...


It's true, I get excited. (hangs head in shame)