Bevets: Suppose Neighbor B protests that Bill Gates should pay for the starving man's meal, does this relieve him of his obligation?

My head aspolde.

Bevets
Why won't you answer my question. You are not being very honest in your response. Are these people, who are where they are by accident of birth, having never heard of Jesus, going to hell.

Then neighbor B has the problem. The sacrifice for Gates is less there is no doubt, but if the man is truly starving then it is everyones obligation to feed him if they have the means to do so. When I make a donation I do not look to what others are giving.

I have now answered your questions , please answer mine.

I understand that there is suffering in the world but my question is a little more pointed than the question of suffering. It deals with the issue of salvation.

Heck I'm joining them all.

/can't possibly be obscure

No St. Ajora? boooo.

The day St. Ajora was born in Bervenia of Lesalia, he stood up, walked to the well and said,
'Calamity will come from this well soon. We must seal it so people don't drink the water.'

Days later, plague swept over Bervenia. The people who drank the tainted water died...
But the only family who believed him didn't get sick and survived.
Since then, people called him 'Miracle Child', 'Child of God'.

When St. Ajora turned 20, he became a 'Saviour', and was sent to Heaven as 'a member of God'...

Bevets
It obvious that you are uncomfortable answering my queston.
A 14 year old girl in Darfur has been gang raped by the militia while she searched for firewood. If the militia kills her does she go to hell if she has never heard of Jesus? Yes or no? This really isn't angels dancing in pins. It is the core of what you believe. Her salvation only comes through Christ?

Well, good to see some debate going on and not just some I'm right, and here's why...No I'm right, and here's why you are wrong. But seroiusly where's the love for Cronos?

My favorite: Athena - Famed Greek Goddess of War, Wisdom, Art, Technical Skill and Creative D.I.Y.

Also, it's her callsign:

Dear Bevets

Please if you can, answer this question...

Then do me a favor and explain why God said "Genesis 2:17- but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." And then the serpant said "Genesis 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Then "Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." Yet... They did not die. Why did they not die? God does not say he was showing them mercy , so why arn't they dead?

/just asking...

Bevets is an idiot - he should answer trev29's question instead of being childish and ignoring him. Before you start preaching to everyone else Bevets, sort yourself out. The guy asked you a simple question and you are too busy being 'high and mighty' to give him the time of day. Not very Christian of you.

Apollo FTW!

Heh. I was born in April under Aries, or Ares if you may...damn my god rocks! And the sister of Discord as well. Far cooler than some jezus god or allah, give me sex and war!

Not that I am trying to support Bevets' Bible thumping or anything but Daddakamabb they are dead. They did die and if you read the whole old testament you would know that. Before they ate of the tree they were one with God and therefore immortal and then afterwards they were mortal. If you want to make Bevets look foolish, you really need much better ammunition.

But seriously folks, that website sucked, it was like Mythology meets Teen People magazine. Campbell and Hamilton must be rolling in thier respective graves.

Dzmn. I thought this would be a discussion on all the cool gods and goddesses, not the one who is probably the least interesting of them all.

trev29 I think Bevets is to much of a Bible thumper and a holier than though to answer, but I can. The answer as supported by both Old and New Testament is no, she does not go to to hell. First you stated she has never heard the gospel, second she is not of the age of choosing, both very important tenets of Christianity. Now the militia guys who raped and killed her, yeah they are going straight to hell if they do not repent. there is a line about children that Jesus said something to the effect of "better a millstone should be hung around your neck than to harm a child" and he said that to his apostles.

Now, not to say you are a heathen or a sinner, or anything, I just wanted to answer your question.

Play ball

SuperWeasel

Not that I am trying to support Bevets' Bible thumping or anything but Daddakamabb they are dead. They did die and if you read the whole old testament you would know that. Before they ate of the tree they were one with God and therefore immortal and then afterwards they were mortal. If you want to make Bevets look foolish, you really need much better ammunition.

Where in the bible does it say that they were immortal before they ate the fruit?

sorry I meant to say "holier than thou" it is late here and the typing is bad, or my keyboard needs some juice

BrothaJohn

The answer as supported by both Old and New Testament is no, she does not go to to hell. First you stated she has never heard the gospel, second she is not of the age of choosing, both very important tenets of Christianity.

Thanks for stepping up to this one since Brevets doesn't seem to have an answer. It's a tough one. So you are saying that if you have never heard of the gospel you go to heaven not hell, but if you have heard it, you are automatically doomed to the pits? In this manner, if I was not a Christian and I saw someone who was who looked like they might talk to me I would run fast in the other direction thereby saving me a place in heaven?

Just asking.

It does not say they were, but implies they could have been since they were to tend the Garden of Eden, Also they ate of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and afterward were forbidden to eat of The Tree of Life and 'live forever' (Gen3:22)

/again, not saying Bevets is all that, just saying have a better argument, that's all.

BrothaJohn
Keyboards and juice don't mix, trust me on this. Other than that, good point (and that's coming from a devout agnostic).

Thank you BrothaJohn,
My problem has always been the exclusivity of the fundamentalist movement. That only through Christ can slvation be found. If there is something beyond, I find it hard to imagine such a closed system. That's just the way I have always looked at the world. I mean no disrespect to others thoughts, I am just trying to understand where they are comming from.

wraithmare before I answer, let me say I am a student of religion, so this is a technical answer, not a sermon.

According to Christian belief, as espoused by Paul, all men are placed by God in their appointed lives and places as he sees fit so that may "know the will of God". It does not say what happens to someone who does NOT hear the gospel, but it does say that someone to whom the gospel has been revealed (to what extent, it is not specific) and rejects it, that person is doomed.

Also Christ did say "I am the way..." and all that , but another passage he says, "He who rejects me can be forgiven, but he who rejects the father will not be forgiven." which sounds like a great Hell-escape clause for almost any deist, so you probably never heard that one.

You may not like that answer, but that is the basic Christian tenet, which of course can vary a bit depending on certain denominations

Feed Bill Gates the $5?

By the way, if after reading the vast amount of gods that were before your little fairy tale, be that Christian or Muslim, you still think yours is the one, true one, you really don't get it. And deserve to be made fools of, even if you don't yet realise it.

trev29 you make a good point, but dont let exclusivity close your thinking. Truth by definition is exclusive. something is true, or it is not true. And most religions are exclusivistic in nature. Fundamentalist are simply more open about it. Christ may have been wrong, or lying, when he said he was the way, but he was not being unreasonable. This is why intelligent people should have polite open dialogue about religion and other touchy subjects.

Buddha said "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

he also said "
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

I think that works for me too.

KingMightyRooster
LOL, in a big way.

Bevets doesn't pass the Turing test.

Smarshmallow

My god, who draws that stuff?

I used to get so embarrassed by my D&D books when I was a kid, because all of the pictures inside were like that (sans nipple). Contrary to what the good folks at TSR may have wanted everyone to think, not every D&D player punches it out to explicit illustrations.

That would be Luis Arroyo.

I'm really glad this has not turned into a "My God can beat up your God" type thread.

\\\I could be mistakem
\\\or just sarcastic
\\\you decide

BrothaJohn

Thanks for the answer! See Bevets, it's not that tough to answer people.

"He who rejects me can be forgiven, but he who rejects the father will not be forgiven." which sounds like a great Hell-escape clause for almost any deist

That is a heck of an escape clause with the assumption that as long as you believe in a supreme ruler you should be in pretty good shape! Of course the other assumption is that it is the God that He taught about as opposed to Baal, Zeus, etc.

I'm not a student of religion so it's good to hear opinions from someone who is. This question to me is the main point of contention in Christianity since it is an all or nothing clause. If you live the perfect life according to the Bible but don't accept the gospel, then you're doomed seems to miss the entire point of Jesus' teachings.

SuperWeasel

It does not say they were, but implies they could have been since they were to tend the Garden of Eden, Also they ate of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and afterward were forbidden to eat of The Tree of Life and 'live forever' (Gen3:22)

/again, not saying Bevets is all that, just saying have a better argument, that's all.

My arguement is perfectly fine, trust me I know extactly what I am saying. Could of been doesn't mean is/are. Where in the bible does it say that they were immortal... ever?

thanks wraithmare, just trying to help out. Now I would love to elucidate even more on religion and my other favorite topic, mythology ( and I do agree a bit with someone up there who said that sight was weak. It is. They really should read some Joseph Cambell or the Golden Bough or something) but I must be off. It is midnight in Tokyo, and this brotha man has gots to work in the mornin'

Good night everyone,
and no hard feelings Bevets, good night and God Bless.
/no that is not sarcasm, but you do need to relax because you will never convert a single person to Christianity on a an internet posting board. Never.
//of course you could just be the most ingenious Fark troll ever, who knows. either way, good luck with that.
///later
////Namaste (had to do it)

Daddakamabb The first tree was a test. Freedom of Choice, get it? a basic basic idea in religion Freedom of Choice is gift to all mankind and Grace it the second gift for those who recieve by faith.

Eve and Adamn screwed the pooch, they ate the apple from one tree, so no fruit from the other tree. Immortaliy revoked!

You are still missing my basic point. Bevets needs some fossils, or quantum physics, or Nietzche (sp?) thrown at him? Don't play HIS game! Play YOUR game! You can't disprove Christianity with some "Angels dancing on the heads of pins" type of argument. So fundies think Genesis is literal, but most people accept it as a metaphor and look at the BIG picture! BIG! If you want to go that route and pull out some odd fact from Genesis then how about "god made a greater light and lesser light to govern the day and the night" but we know that there is only one light and the other is a reflection. Or how about where did Cain and Able find wives? or why did God change his mind about Polygamy? If he was perfect, shouldn't he have gotten that right the first time? why did eh confuse the languages at Babel? was he afraid of something?

Anything but why did they not die, because they DID DIE!

BrothaJohn

wraithmare before I answer, let me say I am a student of religion, so this is a technical answer, not a sermon.

According to Christian belief, as espoused by Paul, all men are placed by God in their appointed lives and places as he sees fit so that may "know the will of God". It does not say what happens to someone who does NOT hear the gospel, but it does say that someone to whom the gospel has been revealed (to what extent, it is not specific) and rejects it, that person is doomed.

Yes, and I think you have hit the nail on the head there with (to what extent, it is not specific). What if that 14 year old girl was 18 and had had a 10 minute encounter with a missionary? Would she now go to hell? In fact it could be argued that missionary work is a positively evil act. A human is falible, the odds are very high that when they expose a person to the gospel they will fail in their mission when the target rejects what is told them. It's not the target's fault, it's the environment they were raised in (i.e. would a Muslim in Iran make an easy target, or could a Christian in the US be converted easily to Islam?). Better IMO for missionaries to STFU and at least guarantee these people will enter heaven.

Let's also take an example from my life. An old friend of mine and his wife are extreme anti-theists. Their children have of course heard of God, they are aware of the stories of Jesus; but it has been presented to them as "just a story". The gospel has been revealed to these kids, but I can guarantee it has been done in a negative fashion. It's not their fault they're non-believers.

Some Christians take the extreme viewpoint of "those who do not know God or Jesus will go to hell". I suppose in their defense it's a more logically consitent point of view. Especially when it comes to missionary work.

actually no pip because what everyone always fails to take into account in the JudeoChristian model is that God is continually touted as a God of Love and Justice. Not that he likes it alot, but that he,or HE, is in fact the source of Love and Justice.

One of the reasons Jesus came was that the people had come to Honor the letter of The Law and not the Spirit. So people try to read the Bible with a very legalistic philosophical bent that is a left over tradition from Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine (both inspired by Aristotle) The major theme of the Bible is trust and faith in the perfection of God. Remember if the Bible is correct then God is All-knowing, All-powerful, and perfectly good. Therefore all people will end up exactly perfectly where they belong, the technicalities of a situation are irrelevant, what is relevant is what is in a person's heart. remember the line about "the beam in your own eye" that was the message that most of the fundies forget. Judgement is not thier business, it's God's

Those Christians with that extreme viewpoint aren't very nice and they aren't making lots of friends.
I mean really forget all those jerks, they are sad and misguided. Read a Bible, or pray, or Don't, it is your choice and it is only between you and God, if he exists that is.

Now i have to sleep
bye

hes some fun info that might get some heat on this. Allah is really a pagen god. he is the god of the moon.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

http://www.mostmerciful.com/moongod.htm

SuperWeasel

Daddakamabb The first tree was a test. Freedom of Choice, get it? a basic basic idea in religion Freedom of Choice is gift to all mankind and Grace it the second gift for those who recieve by faith.

Eve and Adamn screwed the pooch, they ate the apple from one tree, so no fruit from the other tree. Immortaliy revoked!

You are still missing my basic point. Bevets needs some fossils, or quantum physics, or Nietzche (sp?) thrown at him? Don't play HIS game! Play YOUR game! You can't disprove Christianity with some "Angels dancing on the heads of pins" type of argument. So fundies think Genesis is literal, but most people accept it as a metaphor and look at the BIG picture! BIG! If you want to go that route and pull out some odd fact from Genesis then how about "god made a greater light and lesser light to govern the day and the night" but we know that there is only one light and the other is a reflection. Or how about where did Cain and Able find wives? or why did God change his mind about Polygamy? If he was perfect, shouldn't he have gotten that right the first time? why did eh confuse the languages at Babel? was he afraid of something?

Anything but why did they not die, because they DID DIE!

Dude I got it the first time. What I believe you are not getting though is this, why would God tell someone that they are going to die from doing something and they are already going to die anyway. Secondly God never said that they have "Freedom of Choice" hence the whole reason why they were kicked out in the first place, these are things that people have implied... it is written no where in the bible. Also you can't have something taken from you, that you never had in the first place. You can't have immortality taken from you if you were never immortal to begain with. Thirdly, I can farking say what I want, and play by the rules that I will. I didn't ask you to jump into the debate, or critizise my question to someone else. The whole reason why I was using the argement is because fundies use the bible as litteral truth. And if they can't support their "truths" then what the hell is the point of their proselytizing in the first place. I futhermore do not see how this is an "Angels on a pin" debate, I did not ask a stupid question such as did Adam have a navel... I mearly took the text that I was given and tried to make sence of it. What is implied by the written text is however that the action of eating the fruit (there is no written account of what this fruit was, apple is a human, not a written biblical implication) would cause death. There is no implication that they were ever immortal. There is indeed a biblical implication that if they had stayed in the garden of Eden they would eat of the Tree of Life, and become like the Gods. They did not die the day they ate of the tree, and if they were destined to die anyway, why would God act as a bogie man to try to scare them away? Oh yeah I guess it goes back to the whole "not wanting us to be immortal thing" because if we became immortal we would become like them (God and who ever else he is talking to). So who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. The guy who didn't want us to be immortal or the guy who was leading us to the way to become immortal?

I do get the BIG picture, and if you don't like how I debate, tough. I didn't ask you to join in, sorry if that offends you, but it's true. You joined by your own free will thusly don't tell me to change my tactics because it doesn't suit you.

I see god(s) like this, it is all a bufet of choice, just because you pick one thing does not mean that what you picked was the only choice, it also does not mean that it was the only choice, it is just the one you were most comfortable with.

Either all gods exist or no gods exist, to deny any ones existance is to deny all, to accept ones existance is to accept them all.

AMUN: One of the OGDOAD. He started out as the God of Wind and Air alongside his wife AMAUNET. But his remarkable staying power led to him becoming the great Sun God in charge of everything. He really should be the God of self-publicity, opportunism and always having the last word.

Long ago and far away, AMUN went in for mystery and abstract ideas. But he always kept an eye on progress and was willing to go with current trends and fashions: a hawk's head when they were all the rage, colorful fashion accessories and a beard if they were in vogue.

He could be a trendsetter with his red, green and blue plumed headgear, bracelets and necklets. In his dressing room were heads and tails for all occasions - frog, serpent, ape, lion, ram and even a goose, beetle wings and claws. You name it, he would get it.

He kept a low profile during the hassle of the years when ATEN became a dictatorship, but the moment monotheism was over he leapt back. As with any counter-revolution, a strong leader is needed, so he stepped in to become the great Sun God of Thebes and his word was law.

With his increased importance, it wasn't much of a stretch for AMUN to form an alliance with fellow Sun God RA. The two deities joined forces and became AMUN-RA. (And note who has top billing there).

AMUN's publicity drive also extended to Greece, where he was worshipped under the name Ammon and had his very own oracle. As an Egyptian God of almost unique holiness and majesty, he's in a league of his own and has interesting parallels with the utterly holy YAHWEH of the Hebrews.

The wandering Israelites must have picked up a lot of cultural tidbits from the Egyptians - and may even have borrowed the idea of monotheism from the short-lived ATEN. But AMUN, whose name means 'what is hidden', is name-checked on almost every page of the Bible. Whenever 'Amen' crops up at the end of a prayer, he is taking the credit.

ATEN: A minor Sun God who became Top Creator God of the world's first monotheistic religion.

Thebes in Ancient Egypt was the bees knees - humming along happily with 500+ deities to choose from. Until one dreadful day Amenhotep IV came to power. He was obsessed with a little-known Sun God named ATEN. Really obsessed. He changed his name to Akhenaten (He Who Worships Aten) and proclaimed henceforth there was only one God: ATEN.

To prove his point, he abandoned all the old Gods and temples, and moved everyone to a new capital. There he built himself a magnificent new temple and palace where he could sit in the sun and worship all day long. Priests and suppliers of sacrificial succulents were forced onto the dole as the new religion was enforced.

To start with, the new sun disc God was balanced on the head of HORUS and RA was somewhere in the background. But as time went on, the other Gods were forced out and ATEN became more abstract - just a flat disc with a few ropey rays emanating from him, very similar to how small children illustrate sunshine.

Despite his dedication, Akhenaten let things go sadly to pot, and after seventeen years of monotheism the populace was heartily sick of it. Being a Pharaoh, there is no way he would have abdicated, but perhaps he succumbed to sunstroke or a slipped disc.

The next Pharaoh was the much-revered Tutenkhamen, who restored all the delightful deities of yore. The world's first monotheistic God was hastily erased from public records. ATEN became ATEN-RA for a mere twinkle, until AMUN nipped in to oust him altogether as AMUN-RA. Now ATEN is only preserved on disk via computer and gets hardly a mention in the BOOK-OF-THE-DEAD.

This is not quite the end. Monotheism was such a momentous concept that it may well have been taken on board by the Israelites in their great Exodus - along with various Egyptian hymns and prayers. (Some people have even suggested that Akhenaten was actually MOSES himself.)

One final twist. Somebody, possibly even Akhenaten himself, composed a 'Hymn to Aten' which was actually set to music and written down. This, as far as we know, is the first ever example of written musical notation. But what's the heiroglyphic equivalent of a demi-semi-quaver? Is there anybody out there who can play it?

Anubis FTW!



/I know he's not a greek God

Invader Flak:
That list is useless. There's nothing about Chuck Norris.

While I have as much fun as anyone else reading and quoting them, let's face it, most "Chuck Norris Facts" describe someone with supernatural, superhuman powers. They're describing a superman character.

And in the history of this planet, there has only been one real Superman. It's not Chuck Norris. It's Jesus.

I'll take Athena, Goddess of Nerds.

A wee too obscure?

As a Wiccan, I have long caught Hell from others for mixing pantheons, anyone else out there who mixes pantheons for patron God/Goddess?
oh, yeah..
/Athena and Thor FTW

Jesus the Christ of Nazareth
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 4:12

Directorscut

As a Wiccan, I have long caught Hell from others for mixing pantheons, anyone else out there who mixes pantheons for patron God/Goddess?
oh, yeah..
/Athena and Thor FTW

Dude "An ye harm none do what ye will" if anyone gives you hell tell 'em to eat it.

/Pagan
//mixes celtic, norse and greek...
///Athena and Thor seconded FTW

But my god is the only REAL one. Seriously! This time for sure!

Where's XENU?

A much better page is http://www.pantheon.org. I didn't see this listed anywhere above, but if it is, sorry.

Godzilla
Now eat my flesh and drink my blood and tell me that you love me!

HAHAHAHAHA
Best line EVAR
Thanks :)

Jack the Salesman of Nissan
"The best deal in town on a new Hardbody Extended-Cab is found nowhere else, for there is no lower price in Minneapolis given to men to which this truck must be sold."
Twin-Cities Sunday Herald, section 'E', page 3