It's not really surprising,
I mean, I believe Stephen King wrote a few about people rising from the dead too.

Remember, technically Jesus was a zombie too.

sirbissel: Here're a few

It's ok though, because God said to do it.

So, what is only part of it the actual message and word of God now?

psypaul2: hardest not to.

My point is, you can try your hardest, and for some people, that will still include murder.

Also, the whole do evil then get forgiven regardless means that I can premeditate a murder, and a really gruesome one at that, and so long as I'm actually sorry, I get to sit by Christ some day.

PeopleFirst: This of course puts me at odds with many fundamentalist Christians and makes me too narrow for the universalist.

That's fairly similar to the view I was promoting for this particular thread, so you win for figuring out what I was going for. ^^;

HandsomeRyan: Would you rather be happy and fulfilled believing a lie? or would you rather be bitter and disenfranchised but know the truth?

Why not take the Middle Way--to be happy and know the truth, inasmuch as there is any truth?

EricRS: Zaphodius: why are you so sure he only had one son?

Scripture says he only had one. (John 3:16)

your scripture... that's like saying if it's written down it must be true

See, here's the thing: I don't hate the bible. I don't believe in its message, I don't accept anyone as my personal lord and saviour, I don't accept your viewpoint, et al.. But you see, Bible loving-types, most people who don't accept your particular viewpoint don't really give a shiat about it one way or the other -- assuming those of you who DO believe it can just leave the rest of us alone.

I've never been pulled away from whatever I was doing by a Pagan, Jew or Buddhist knocking on my door evangelizing, handing out pamphlets or ... well, anything. Ever.

I don't hate you Christian types, I just wish you'd leave me alone.

Haraksha: Jesus not the son of god based on the old testament:

No link there.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

In the Hebrew, the word just means to "lie down with"

The same word is also used in Gen 19:32

Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

And a million other places in the bible. Where it is not translated as "rape".

djdole: Remember, technically Jesus was a zombie too.

I still think the whole thing was started with a lie and got out of control.

Yeah, sure Mary. Maybe your husband believed you were still a virgin, but I ain't buying it.

Haraksha: Check your sarcasm meter. I'm actually an existentialist.

Hard to tell these days; couldn't tell if you were trolling or a Baptist. ^^;

Mr Sunshine: And that's it in a nutshell.

Hrmm, not bad. Fairly consistent, and takes into account a great number of things I hadn't even really gotten to.

Where'd you get that particular view?

EricRS

This is essentially a Calvinism debate, but I tend to side with he died for everyone.

I don't subscribe to calvinism. I tend to think that God limits his own infinite knowledge. This may spark debate, but it's only a thought.

1. God knows all.
2. God can forget sin. "He throws our sin as far as the east is from the west"
3. God can know all and still choose to forget something.

my conclusion is that in order for God to be just and to be loving, He must not know what we will choose before He creates us. Since the bible tells us that by God's very nature He is 100% just, and 100% loving... that's how I reconcile my beliefs.

Pretending to understand why is beyond the scope of what any of us can know. The finite are not able to understand the infinite. And once again, goes back to what muninsfire and I have said back and forth for weeks. pick a side, and agree to disagree.

Haraksha: You missed my point. I was basically stating that that the contradictions in the Bible basically undermine any point it tries to make.

I think the contradictions in the Bible make it more historical and metaphorical than literal and schizophrenic.

EricRS: No link there.

No pop

"lie down with"

I think context is a big thing. Especially in the passages about taking the girl to the fields, and such. But, even if you don't translate it that way, it's still a stupid rule, and the word of god.

psypaul2: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


So where are all these people who believed and have eternal life? I haven't seen a single one. I suspect they're all dead. Just like we shall be. Don't feed me the line about living in "heaven." It says "eternal life." Life takes place on earth.

Totally thread-jacking this since it's well discussed.



What size do you guys think these are? (Clicky)

And something else. Wouldn't the assumption that the bible is infalliable (IE, taking everything in it as true) not only be idolatry because you believe it is god-like, but wrong because it clearly contradicts itself at times? It seems to me that believing that, while the bible may get you along the right path, it isn't the path. It even says so. Yet many treat it like it is, while saying it isn't. I don't get it.

Haraksha: I think context is a big thing. Especially in the passages about taking the girl to the fields, and such. But, even if you don't translate it that way, it's still a stupid rule, and the word of god.


These people didn't have their own two bedroom condo. They typically lived in the a house with 10 other people. If they were going to go have sex before marriage, they would have had to go somewhere where there was no one else around. A far away field would be a good place.

Which comes from desire, yes. Without desire, you see past the world's illusions, and can transcend suffering.

Very idealistic, but impossible for most in practice. In my experience, seeing the illusions and the lies has caused my receint sufferings. "Ignorance is bliss" is a true statement. Transending desire would have other concequences that could cripple "living" and having a life. Accepting the world seems to me to be a more realistic approach to transcending suffering.

psypaul2: And once again, goes back to what muninsfire and I have said back and forth for weeks.

Jeeze, have we been doing this for weeks? Time flies...

I_C_Weener: Camus

I've read "The Stranger". I'm more of a Nietzschean than a French existentialist, but mostly because I'm better read in Nietzsche.

muninsfire: Baptist

I was playing the absurdist to help support your point.

Zaphodius: schizophrenic

Either way, not holy.

Wogus: I don't hate you Christian types, I just wish you'd leave me alone.

answer the door naked, they seem to come around less often.

DisneyOnIce: psypaul2: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So where are all these people who believed and have eternal life? I haven't seen a single one. I suspect they're all dead. Just like we shall be. Don't feed me the line about living in "heaven." It says "eternal life." Life takes place on earth.

The thing about that view that I've wondered about, honestly, that nobody seems to really think about is:

Why would anyone actually want to live forever?

FarkinHostile

Very idealistic, but impossible for most in practice. In my experience, seeing the illusions and the lies has caused my receint sufferings. "Ignorance is bliss" is a true statement. Transending desire would have other concequences that could cripple "living" and having a life. Accepting the world seems to me to be a more realistic approach to transcending suffering.

Thats not transcending suffering. Its accepting suffering.

Well Happy Winter Solstice all.

EricRS: A far away field would be a good place

But it doesn't matter what the intention was. If nothing else, that only helps my argument. My intentions were good, but I accidentally raped her, now I'm married, feel bad, and accept Christ.

I get in to heaven.

I've noticed that the Jehovah Witnesses around my town now go door to door with cute kids. Kids who are very young.

It use to be two adults. . . .

It's a cheap way to get people to invite you in during winter.

muninsfire
Where'd you get that particular view?

Reading the Bible, confronting the texts and authors themselves without the retrospective foils of modern theology; also comparing the practices and beliefs of 2nd-Temple Judaism/early Christianity with the later (post 150 CE) theological developments.

And I have drawn extensively on Reinhold Niebuhr. The Nature and Destiny of Man is his magnum opus wherein he sets out his theology, which is a return to the Biblical-Hebraic concepts largely stripped of its Platonic trappings (though he does make extensive use of Augustine). Such interpretive framework has led some to label him "neo-orthodox," though I don't find such a label adequate.

Niebuhr also wrote a delightful essay on why Christian Pacifism is inherently contradictory.

Haraksha: But it doesn't matter what the intention was. If nothing else, that only helps my argument. My intentions were good, but I accidentally raped her, now I'm married, feel bad, and accept Christ.

What I am saying though is that there was not a hebrew word for "rape". What it is saying is that the two need to get married because the two have already consummated the marriage.

Haraksha: I_C_Weener: Camus

I've read "The Stranger". I'm more of a Nietzschean than a French existentialist, but mostly because I'm better read in Nietzsche.

muninsfire: Baptist

I was playing the absurdist to help support your point.

Zaphodius: schizophrenic

Either way, not holy.

But the Judeo/Christian/ Muslum god is indeed qhite bi-polar and possible has multiple personality issues. It's evident just from reading any of the books that there is room for consistency improvement.

Wow, I thought Bibles were mostly free. great for rolling papers too.

Propos on the Bible warning lable and Zombie jesus, those are great.

I could go into more philosophical conversation on this topic, but honestly, I'm too farking lazy; I know my thoughts on the subject, and find humor in the never ending debate of jackasses that think they know everything about it. But remember folks, ignorance is only bliss, if you are the ignorant, it just makes the rest of the world hate you more.

Jesus is a Chocking hazard

Haraksha

My point is, you can try your hardest, and for some people, that will still include murder.

Also, the whole do evil then get forgiven regardless means that I can premeditate a murder, and a really gruesome one at that, and so long as I'm actually sorry, I get to sit by Christ some day.

Well, the argument against that is that if you truely invite Christ into your heart, you won't do those things. Premeditated murder is not something that any rational human being would do. With a psychology degree, I can speak with authority on that. What you are doing is introducing another idea into the argument, the idea of sanity and salvation. Can a mentally insane or irrational human being be held accountable for their actions? A murder of passion and a premeditated murder are different in that the individual has no time to think of consequences.

I will pray for all you farkers. May God grant you the will to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

smeegle: Well Happy Winter Solstice all.

Cheers

FarkinHostile: Very idealistic, but impossible for most in practice. In my experience, seeing the illusions and the lies has caused my receint sufferings. "Ignorance is bliss" is a true statement. Transending desire would have other concequences that could cripple "living" and having a life. Accepting the world seems to me to be a more realistic approach to transcending suffering.

I'm going to have to bring the Tao into this, because I'm not very familiar with the Analects, but I know the parts of the Tao that talk about this bit:

If you open yourself to the Tao,
you are at one with the Tao
and you can embody it completely.
If you open yourself to insight,
you are at one with insight
and you can use it completely.
If you open yourself to loss,
you are at one with loss,
and you can accept it completely.

That is to say, once you have looked past the illusions and found how things really are, your job's not done yet--you have to accept in your own self that this is the way the world is--and once you have accepted it, it's no problem.

/For the Christians in here, replace "Tao" with "Christ" and then read the parts of the letters of Paul that talk about "Not Christ in me, but I in Christ"--similar concept.

scratched: Why would anyone actually want to live forever?

It seems more like a curse. EVERYTHING grows old and dies, to imply that one could live forever is horrible to comprehend, and violates the natural order of the entire universe. Especially if you have to spend the entire time worshipping and praising some omnipotent yet insecure diety.

EricRS: consummated the marriage

I didn't disagree. What I'm saying is that rape would still fall under that law.

That leads to the "it's out-dated, a social code from another time" argument. Then I counter with "all or nothing, word of god or not word of god". Then you say something like "Jesus is the new covenant". Then I once again point out that Jesus is nothing but a dude if you understand logical proofs.

untrustworthy

Mary was just shooting for the moon.
Imagine the child-support payments if you actually successfully convince everyone that your kid is the SON OF GOD.

"Ok...I'll take 50% of heaven, and custody on Mondays, Wendsdays, Fridays and Halloween.
God, you can have him all month before Easter, he gets quite fussy around easter for some reason.
Must be all the bunnies."

xkristinx: I've noticed that the Jehovah Witnesses around my town now go door to door with cute kids. Kids who are very young.

It use to be two adults. . . .

It's a cheap way to get people to invite you in during winter.

like I said, answer the door naked...

It would benefit nearly everyone in this thread to remember that nearly the overwhelming majority of America considers themselves to be Christian. They are your well adjusted, well educated, well reasoning coworers, neighbors, and peers.

It would even more greatly benefit nearly everyone in this thread to rememeber that the overwhelming majority of America ARE NOT fundamentalists.

When those Farkers who are most prone to lash out against Christians lash out at ALL Christians, or Christians as a whole based on examples or a consensus idea of what christains are like, they are revealing their own bigotry.

When a Farker says "I am sick of holier than thou Christians trying to cram their stupid religion down my throat", all I hear is "I'm tired of all those crackhead blacks trying to make me listen to thier ghetto rap music."

Bigotry is bigotry. Live and let live. Christians are your friends, neighbors, coworkers and family.

JESUS.saves: I wonder if you'll find it quite so funny when Lucifer is wiping his bottom with your immortal soul?

Now THAT'S an awesome line. Mega props, Jesus-dude.

muninsfire

psypaul2: And once again, goes back to what muninsfire and I have said back and forth for weeks.

Jeeze, have we been doing this for weeks? Time flies...

Well, over weeks of different threads, we always reach the same conclusion.

Have you tried a dark chocolate ale? They are very good, although Guiness is my beer of choice. Any chance you could make it to a Kentucky Fark party? You'd be hella fun to talk to over a pint!

Haraksha: I was playing the absurdist to help support your point.

And Baptists aren't absurd? ;-þ

Mr Sunshine: Reading the Bible, confronting the texts and authors themselves without the retrospective foils of modern theology; also comparing the practices and beliefs of 2nd-Temple Judaism/early Christianity with the later (post 150 CE) theological developments.

I find your views to be quite interesting, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

/You've got a consistent theology--something that seems to be as rare as a two-headed kitten.

psypaul2: has no time to think of consequences.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree. Crimes of passion and premeditated murder can have a lot of overlap.

It's irrelevant though, the argument is just meant to be extreme. Arson? Theft? Sleeping with my friend's wife? I can do any of those things, any sin, and then ask for forgiveness.

If I'm truly sorry, and truly accept Christ on my death bed, I get in. The teachings of Christ do not create a better world.

Maccus: I will pray for all you farkers. May God grant you the will to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

You do that. Just remember that tolerance is not a synonym for acceptance.

Maccus: I will pray for all you farkers. May God grant you the will to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

Are you sure God really wants tolerance? He seems prefer that confusion and hate as much as anything.

muninsfire: And Baptists aren't absurd?

Zing.

I doubt I've made any give up what belief system they've clung to, but I tried. Now I go to class.