"God forgive them for know not what they do."

I have a wonderful idea for everyone, instead of taking anti-Christian rhetoric as a basis for your understanding of Christianity, why not read the Bible and formulate your own opinion.

Quite possibly you might find some comfort and hope.

Merry Christmas!

Everyone loves a good fairy tale.

"I'm gonna capture a Gideon." - Bill Hicks

8-bit-nintendo

LOL FSM! OMG SO FUNNAY!

Lord_Baull: Oh, and for the record, basing your arguement on YOUR interpretation of the Bible to disprove another is kinda silly.

Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
Joh 10:13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Joh 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.


He still talks about laying down his life for his sheep. It still points to one God to me.

From TFA: forty-seven per cent of Americans read the Bible every week

*cough* *cough* bullshiat

muninsfire
Further hypothetical question:

Now, did Jesus only die for the sins of those who believed in him, or for *all* men's sins?

If he died for all men's sins, would that not include those who live a good life, but who did not necessarily know who he was?

Could not then that statement mean that by his intercession, people would enter the kingdom of heaven through his agency whether or not they knew that it was his intercession with G-d that allowed for it to happen?

He died for all those who accept him to be the Son of God, and ask for Him in their lives to be Lord and Saviour. We are given the choice to accept or reject that gift.

I can again see where you come from, but I can't pick and choose the most likable parts of the bible. I don't like the idea that good people go to hell, but I believe the bible is the word of God, divinely inspired through the hand of man. Canonized after much thought and prayer through a period of over 300 years following Christ's death, using firsthand accounts of people in Christ's life.

JESUS.saves: You need to wake up and realize a very important truth: We don't make the rules, the Lord does.

There aren't any rules. But I'm glad you feel safer in your delusion. Truly, I am.

Also, I thought it went;
George W. Bush > The Big Guy > JC > The Spook...
...in that specific order too?

Mr Sunshine: Because the unregenerate will be unwilling to accept grace;

This presumes that everybody who does not believe as you do is unwilling to accept grace.

Presume, for a moment, the case of a random...Hindu, living in the back country of India, five hundred years ago. He lives his whole life reasonably well--doesn't do anything terrible, and tries to take care of his family and the other people living near him.

He has not accepted Jesus, because he's never *heard* of the guy. Would he not, though, accept Grace if he were given the chance?

/Most of the hostility that exists towards Christianity in general is manufactured *by* Christianity--by the confrontational attitude, the "my way or the highway" insistance that everyone regard what *you* think the Bible says as absolute truth.

2006-12-11 02:34:08 PM machoprogrammer
2006-12-11 02:34:08 PM EricRS [TotalFark]

//Hey... posted at the same time :)

Guess there really is a sucker born every minute.

muninsfire

/Advocati

Isn't that a bit backwards? Should they not be translated from the early texts, rather than having the early texts be compared to them?

They weren't looking at the validity of old texts, they were comparing continuity between the new versions we have in comparison to the oldest known manuscripts. It wasn't a case of validation of the old through the new, but reaffirmation of correctness of the new by comparison to the old.

munisfire

(Hindu in the bush argument)

See, this is why I miss the old fashioned Catholic Church. They had explanations for this in the form of purgatory where bunches of the unproselytized hung out with the unbaptized babies.

They tried to explain everything. Gimmee a Jesuit over a Baptist any old day.

Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health has been 100 weeks on The New York Times bestseller list, and there are more than 20 million copies in circulation. And there is just one version unlike the bible.

psypaul2: He died for all those who accept him to be the Son of God, and ask for Him in their lives to be Lord and Saviour.

you mean Regis Philbin is NOT the son of goD? That damn TV guide!!!!!

"Blessed is the man who

- Walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,

- Nor stands in the path of sinners,

- Nor sits in the seat of the scornful [mockers];

But his delight is in the law of the Lord,

And in His law he meditates day and night." Psalm 1:1-6

muninsfire
Would he not, though, accept Grace if he were given the chance?

If he accepts Grace when given the chance, then he is regenerate. If he does not, then he is unregenerate. That's the definition of regenerate/unregenerate. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

mr sunshine


"Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and the door shall be opened"

My entire childhood was spent knocking. Eventually I stopped knocking on a door that is not a door at all.

Axiomatic George W. Bush > The Big Guy > JC > The Spook...

Which one's the big guy?

I_C_Weener

Oh shiat... I thought you were one of the sensible ones who reserved their craziness only to religious beliefs. Are you actually a fundie? Woopsie.

"How stupid do I think the Americans are? Hmm...I think I can sell them water for $1 a bottle."

No, no, no I think I can sell them municipal water for $1 a bottle as long as it has a fancy name like Earthly Delights Water or Garden of Eden Spring Water.

So 25 million bibles a year sold, which means that every person in America will get a new bible about every 12 years. Hmm...maybe we need to put RFID tags on these things to figure out how many wind up in landfills.

Hey maybe I'll see how many free bibles I can get in one year. Then have a book burning.

psypaul2: He died for all those who accept him to be the Son of God, and ask for Him in their lives to be Lord and Saviour. We are given the choice to accept or reject that gift.

Very good, the canonical answer.

I can again see where you come from, but I can't pick and choose the most likable parts of the bible. I don't like the idea that good people go to hell, but I believe the bible is the word of God, divinely inspired through the hand of man. Canonized after much thought and prayer through a period of over 300 years following Christ's death, using firsthand accounts of people in Christ's life.

But still ultimately the work of men, who are necessarily imperfect, according to your faith--correct?

/My ultimate goal is not to make you stop believing or anything like that--but to make you *think*.
//There's always another interpretation, especially in a book so full of figures of speech and of such great age and length as the Bible.
///Besides, questioning one's own faith is good for the soul. Makes it stronger, in the end.

phrightener: "I am awake."

What everyone should aspire to be.

/Not desire, though. That'll just lead to suffering.

PROOF!

SIGN OF END TIMES!1!!1!

/Hilarious picture

Maybe the Bible sells so many copies because it is a Good Book.


/American flag also the number one best-selling flag, thanks to all those people who use 'em for bonfires.

da da da Fox on the run, da da da
fox on the run, da da

I accepted Grace a couple -o- times

Good time good times.

Rocky Racoon read Gideon's Bible,,, didn't he?

Axiomatic

The Spook...

Be careful! Blaspheming the holy ghost is the one unforgivable sin!

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
(Mark 3:29)

psypaul2: He died for all those who accept him to be the Son of God, and ask for Him in their lives to be Lord and Saviour. We are given the choice to accept or reject that gift.

He died for everyone.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He died for everyone regardless of whether or not you accept him. It only benefits you though if you accept the gift.

Stray bullet from the heavens above,
I'm the illegitimate son of God.

Rethorn

, we're forbidden to access that picture on that server

I think what bothers me about the argument that Christ must be holy for salvation, and therefore following just his messsage alone won't save you is that it means people aren't being good for good's sake, they're doing it because they're afraid of burning in hell.

The argument on what is good or qualifies someone as a good person goes both ways. Following the message and believing that Christ was divine basically means that the message is arbitrary. He could have asked you to follow any set of behaviors, and those would have been considered the "right path" so long as he attached, "Do this and believe in me and you'll go to heaven," to them.

For me, this means that people honestly don't care about people, nor should they have to. They're a sinner, they will always fall short of the "glory of god" and therefore even if they try, they'll fail. They have to try only enough that they convince themselves that they're doing the best they can, then they can continue being bigots, liars, adulterers, and thieves. It's ok, Jesus understands that they're not perfect, but he'll save them anyways, because they believe.

Hobbes got it right, morality is a lie. If we can all agree to not kill, rape, or steal we should get along just fine.

My entire childhood was spent knocking. Eventually I stopped knocking on a door that is not a door at all.

Perhaps as a child you were not formed enough to understand? Perhaps you knocked at the wrong house? Perhaps knocking was the wrong approach for you, and just listening will work?

There are many paths to Enlightenment/Salvation.

Want proof? Read "The Case For Christ"

I read it. Came away highly dissatisfied. The "reporter" never asked any followup questions. Like why the gospels seem to be re-hash of one person's report. The answer: it's like a group of reporters making sure they got the quote right by asking the guy standing closest to Jesus what he said. C'mon, really. How often do you hear reporters quoting other reporters about what Tony Snow said?

muninsfire; If you're incapable of figuring out what 'good' behaviour is without G-d telling you what to do every minute of every day, you're either stupid or sociopathic.

FOR THE WIN! Thread over, please disperse.

psypaul2: It wasn't a case of validation of the old through the new, but reaffirmation of correctness of the new by comparison to the old.

Alrighty, just checking.

Nightsweat: See, this is why I miss the old fashioned Catholic Church. They had explanations for this in the form of purgatory where bunches of the unproselytized hung out with the unbaptized babies.

Raised Catholic. Where do you think I got these tendencies to find explanations for everything *from*?

They tried to explain everything. Gimmee a Jesuit over a Baptist any old day.

Jesuits are taught to think. Baptists aren't.

Mr Sunshine: If he accepts Grace when given the chance, then he is regenerate. If he does not, then he is unregenerate. That's the definition of regenerate/unregenerate. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

Patience; to everything there is a season.

Now, if the hypothetical Hindu is not given the chance to accept Jesus--your apparent definition of grace, unless I've misunderstood--during his lifetime, then is he therefore damned?

Or would he be allowed the chance when he approaches Judgement, having lived a good life, but never having been exposed to the Gospel?

GlitchCog Be careful! Blaspheming the holy ghost is the one unforgivable sin!

Well, crap, guess I shouldn't have dressed up as the Holey Ghost for Halloween. Oh well, since I'm damned anyway :)

2xcited
Merry Christmas!

Happy holidays, you prick.

/Not desire, though. That'll just lead to suffering.

Life is suffering.

A Gallup Poll in September showed a steady rise in the number of people who expect the nation to elect a woman or an African-American as president one day: Americans, it seems, are much more open to these choices than, say, someone who is an atheist or who is gay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/weekinreview/10nagourney.html?em&ex=11659860 00&en=377dbfc4efe662f9&ei=5087%0A

sirbissel: Axiomatic George W. Bush > The Big Guy > JC > The Spook...

Which one's the big guy?

Bush > Big guy > JC > Spook
=
Bush > Father > Son > Holy spirit

muninsfire
presumes that everybody who does not believe as you do is unwilling to accept grace.

Presume, for a moment, the case of a random...Hindu, living in the back country of India, five hundred years ago. He lives his whole life reasonably well--doesn't do anything terrible, and tries to take care of his family and the other people living near him.

He has not accepted Jesus, because he's never *heard* of the guy. Would he not, though, accept Grace if he were given the chance?


Many Christians liken this to child-like innocense. Not given the opportunity to know Christ, I doubt a loving God would make this wonderful Indian hell-bound. But, we are not judge, nor should we be. We are only commanded to share the love of Christ to both make this world now a better place, and share the gift of salvation.


/Most of the hostility that exists towards Christianity in general is manufactured *by* Christianity--by the confrontational attitude, the "my way or the highway" insistance that everyone regard what *you* think the Bible says as absolute truth.

Agreed. We don't need to make this an "us and them" mentality. We should focus on the love of Christ, and the joy that a relationship with him should bring. Too many Christians are either ignorant or loud mouthed, and give the rest of us a bad name.

FarkinHostile: Life is suffering.

Which comes from desire, yes. Without desire, you see past the world's illusions, and can transcend suffering.

Haraksha: For me, this means that people honestly don't care about people, nor should they have to. They're a sinner, they will always fall short of the "glory of god" and therefore even if they try, they'll fail. They have to try only enough that they convince themselves that they're doing the best they can, then they can continue being bigots, liars, adulterers, and thieves. It's ok, Jesus understands that they're not perfect, but he'll save them anyways, because they believe.

There are tons of verses in the bible that deal with "acting however you want to" and expecting to get to heaven.

Jesus said those that truly love him, will follow his commands. And the book of 1 John talks about knowing if you are saved or not (mostly based on your actions). James specifically says that "Faith without deeds is dead".

FarkinHostile

Life is one great big adventure.

Lord_Baull: Want proof? Read "The Case For Christ"

I read it. Came away highly dissatisfied. The "reporter" never asked any followup questions. Like why the gospels seem to be re-hash of one person's report. The answer: it's like a group of reporters making sure they got the quote right by asking the guy standing closest to Jesus what he said. C'mon, really. How often do you hear reporters quoting other reporters about what Tony Snow said?

Actually Lamb is a pretty good read as well, as well as Ishmael.