kyoryu: In some parts of California, ferinstance, it's nearly impossible to get a job as a nurse unless you speak Spanish.

This is because the customer base speaks Spanish, and the hospitals are trying to serve that base. That is a private decision they are making.

Of course those nurses also need to speak English, it isn't as if monolingual Spanish-speakers are getting those jobs. The hospitals are looking for employees with an extra skill, namely, bilingualism in Spanish.

smert: I don't think that people are being distracted by the language issue, I think that it's one thing that they feel like they can try to control. All the economic effects you mentioned are things out of their control because the federal goverment won't enforce the law and the local goverment can't enforce immigration law. So they are doing what is left to them.

I just don't think it's all that productive, in the long run. At some point we need to ask some serious questions about the economy and about globalization. That is the big elephant in the room issue, and not only in the United States, either. But, it's common (worldwide, as humans) to worry about The Other, and look for scapegoats too, when people are feeling insecure. That is certainly a legitimate feeling, I do not wish to minimize it.

grizzlyjohnson

There are real measurable effects to illegal immigration like wage depression, people entering the country with diseases like TB and changas which we are not prepared to handle here. Neighborhoods going downhill is a way to say increase in crime, decrease in property values, decrease in mean wages, decrease in education level, increase in litter and graffiti, increase in abandoned cars, increase in drug activity and so on. And then there are problems with taxes not being paid, county services being used...

A Harvard economist did a study and came up with a 40 billion loss per year based on illegal immigration.

tomcollins

Grizzly, you are quite the stupid prick aren't you? If you honestly don't think Mexicans "understand" our culture then you are jaded. They understand our culture just fine but they prefer their own. That's the problem...they come here because they can't find the means to survive in their own Country but wish they were still back at home (i.e. they resist becoming "Americans")

I'm no "passive" racist, either. I don't give a shiat if the immigrants in question are purple midgets....I just would prefer that they at least TRY to learn English. I guess you like seeing what many non-English speaking immigrants are creating: An illiterate subclass of American society.

Thanks for making my point on several things there.

What good are english only laws if the little brown invaders are illiterate?

How do you know they're not TRYING to learn english? That's a defensive generalization. In fact if you did just a little bit of looking into the subject, you'd know that during every commercial break on Spanish TV stations here in the US you will see at least two ads for english courses. ESL classes are brimming all over the place.

But you'd rather hide behind your ignorant generalizations.

Why? Because THERE IS NO PROBLEM, other than you're scared of people that are not like you. Period. If there's another problem, express it. I have yet to see but one coherent expression of a valid concern about illegal immigration in this entire 400 post discussion.

They understand our culture just fine but they prefer their own

That's the height of ignorance, you are the poster child for Xenophobes of America. Let's continue oversimplifying so you can feel like you're doing your part, even though you're doing nothing but biatching about something you don't understand.

I had to know C++, Java, SQL, VB5-NET2 and tons of others to get my job. Why the hell can't someone else learn 1 stinking language in order to get their's? Requiring Enlgish is a legitimate job qualification. It wouldn't be racist for a company to require employees to know spanish (i.e. 1/2 the farking jobs in the economy) and neither is the reverse. GET OVER IT. I guess some people just like biatching about everything.

spiderpaz: Requiring Enlgish is a legitimate job qualification.

I don't see anyone arguing that it isn't. Mind you, I would argue that the amount of English required probably varies by job - if you want to pay below market wages of the sort fresh immigrants (illegal immigrants even more so) are the only takers for, you probably won't have much luck requiring a whole lot of English beyond the basic phrases needed to do the job in question. People will easily memorize those, but will not be able to have breezy chit-chat in English in the hall.

TFA was about requiring the employees to use ONLY English while at work. I'm all for requiring the use of English with the boss and customers, but unless it's an actual safety issue, I don't have any need to insist that the employees not speak among themselves in whatever language they want, if it's chat about who had a new kid and some new recipe they found on the internet, while dusting the shelves.

There are a lot of low-wage, very mundane boring as hell jobs that are trivial to do while chatting with the other guy on the crew, why the need to enforce English there?

I went to Mexico but I couldn't get a job unless I learned the language so I came back. A few years later I went to France and the same thing happened.

I am so oppressed.

smert

There are real measurable effects to illegal immigration like wage depression, people entering the country with diseases like TB and changas which we are not prepared to handle here. Neighborhoods going downhill is a way to say increase in crime, decrease in property values, decrease in mean wages, decrease in education level, increase in litter and graffiti, increase in abandoned cars, increase in drug activity and so on. And then there are problems with taxes not being paid, county services being used...

A Harvard economist did a study and came up with a 40 billion loss per year based on illegal immigration.

Wage and property value depression occurs for a lot more reasons than illegal immigration. It occurs any time a large group of unskilled people migrate. Dust Bowl Oklahoma, post civil war inner cities. Unemployment is at a low right now when everyone is screaming that the illegal immigrant problem is the worst. How do you explain that? It appears to me that they are good for the economy then.

The only place that you can demonstrate real cause and effect is in the area of government services. People are consuming services without putting any money back into the system to cover them. A government that allows this is nuts. In my opinion, you should have to show a green card to get government services, and if you don't have one, any emergency needs are taken care of and then you're on a bus home. That's a simple fix to a demonstrable problem.

Oh, but wait, then we will have people that will not seek medical attention. We will have kids growing up here in the land of golden opportunity with no education because their parents couldn't risk being deported. That doesn't sound real wise in the long run, does it.

What brings people here illegally? Jobs. Eliminate their ability to work and you eliminate their desire to come here and consume our services. That means putting pressure on every employer to verify eligibility. Oops, we've just proposed something that's interestingly unacceptable to both sides of the congressional aisle. Democrats are not in favor of making people show documentation, and Replublicans don't want to mess with business because they know how much extra money is made each year by business who employ undocumented workers under the table.

So let's build a big farking wall and make everyone speak English. That way at least the politicians look like they're doing something. How can anyone in their right mind buy into that and not feel like they've been bent over the table with no kiss and no vaseline by their representatives in government?

Comparing strongly typed programming languages with weakly types, idiomatic languages is oversimplification of mammoth proportions. Especially when you factor in colloquialisms, cultural differences and other factors that cause not just misunderstandings but career limiting exchanges, with possible legal repurcussions, your analogy begins to suck beyond usefulness.

/just saying

Boss is probably paranoid, but it could be justified. I'm not completely fluent in Spanish, but do know quite a bit. I have seen Spanish speaking co-workers switch to speaking Spanish when they wanted to talk crap about someone else in the room.

Why? Because THERE IS NO PROBLEM, other than you're scared of people that are not like you. Period. If there's another problem, express it. I have yet to see but one coherent expression of a valid concern about illegal immigration in this entire 400 post discussion.

I would say:

1) Illegal Immigrants in prisons being supported on my tax dollars.
2) Illegal immigrants who live off the welfare system. Yes, I know this problem is over-stated and exaggerated but even ONE person doing this is too many.
3) People who can sneak across the border unchecked is a security risk, regardless of how you slice it. Again, exaggerated, but a problem.

Being scared of people who aren't like me has nothing to do with it. You want to come here legally, fine. You want to sneak in, I have no use for them. Sorry. You can't just break inconvenient laws because you feel like it.

grizzleyjohnson: What brings people here illegally? Jobs. Eliminate their ability to work and you eliminate their desire to come here and consume our services. That means putting pressure on every employer to verify eligibility. Oops, we've just proposed something that's interestingly unacceptable to both sides of the congressional aisle. Democrats are not in favor of making people show documentation, and Replublicans don't want to mess with business because they know how much extra money is made each year by business who employ undocumented workers under the table.

Oh... never mind. We agree. Carry on.

daniels

Americans suck at other languages because most of us don't share a border with a country speaking another language and, as such, aren't exposed to it.

That's a nice theory but completely untrue. The most commonly found second language in Europe is English even though the closest English speaking country is England. Nearly everyone in Germany takes english during their entire school career. Using your logic they'd be learning Polish instead. They don't. Why not? Because the Poles aren't learning German, they're learning English too. Someone living in the center of Germany doesn't live any closer to the Polish border than I do to the Mexican border. Everyone in the US lives closer to the Mexican border than any German lives to England.

The ONLY other national language on this continent is Spanish (yeah, sorry, quebcois, you don't count). We share a border with Mexico. Tell me again why Americans should be exempt from learning a second language.

And just think, if everyone in North America learned both English and Spanish, everyone in the continent could talk to each other with no barriers. Why is that a bad thing?

Daniels

1) Illegal Immigrants in prisons being supported on my tax dollars.
2) Illegal immigrants who live off the welfare system. Yes, I know this problem is over-stated and exaggerated but even ONE person doing this is too many.
3) People who can sneak across the border unchecked is a security risk, regardless of how you slice it. Again, exaggerated, but a problem.

Yes, agreed in all three cases. That covers about .5% of all illegal immigrants. So the rest are okay then?

Most illegals that are arrested are deported, by the way.

Oh... never mind. We agree. Carry on.

Heheheheheheh

grizzlyjohnson

I agree with everything you said there (except of course with the last paragraph obviously) our goverment is selling us out all the time. I mean what the hell is the point of having a border patrol if it's undermanned and underfunded? What's the point of laws that are not enforced. That pisses me off because I follow the law and the one time I don't I get arrested, if I skip out on my taxes the IRS will be up my ass with a microscope.

Comparing strongly typed programming languages with weakly types, idiomatic languages is oversimplification of mammoth proportions.

Uh, yeah, absurdly so. It's like saying a lawnmower mechanic is qualified to do genetic engineering.

smert

I'm with you 100% there! All I'm trying to say to everyone is to really advocate doing things that will solve real problems. Otherwise we're just hating to be hating and that's not going to solve anything.

dallashockey69: Teleken-

yeah i am fully aware of the german immigrants who came to central texas. germans never made up over 20% of our population either.

9% in 1790, currently (2000 Census data) 16% of the total US population and 24% of the non-Hispanic white population.

source

Per the 1990 US Census, the German population of Texas was 17.5%.

source

That dropped to about 15% in the 2000 Census.

grizzlyjohnson: We share a border with Mexico. Tell me again why Americans should be exempt from learning a second language.

Because it's wasted time. Even if I spent 10 years learning Spanish growing up, it would have been 10 years since I used it. I am 2,000 miles from the Mexican border. I could probably go most of my life without having to use Spanish.

Yes, agreed in all three cases. That covers about .5% of all illegal immigrants. So the rest are okay then?

Yes, but unfortunately you can't tell by looking at them. So you either stop everyone or stop no one.

grizzlyjohnson


The ONLY other national language on this continent is Spanish (yeah, sorry, quebcois, you don't count). We share a border with Mexico. Tell me again why Americans should be exempt from learning a second language.

Exempt? So you are now saying that it should be a requirement to learn Spanish? What, like by law?

And just think, if everyone in North America learned both English and Spanish, everyone in the continent could talk to each other with no barriers. Why is that a bad thing?

You know what, it's not a bad thing. I speak Spanish, my wife is Mexican and 5 of the best years of my life were in Puerto Rico. But it was my choice. The work to learn a second language when it's not necessary should be a choice unless you have moved to a place where you have to learn the language to exist. Now if they can exist as many other people from other countries can and do without all the language assistance without learning the local language well then good for them.

When I went to Puerto Rico I learned Spanish in less than a year and was able to take the college entrance examinations in Spanish within that year and then took college classes in Spanish, by which I mean chemistry, etc. taught in Spanish. While I was doing that my buddies back on the base were competing over girls who were about 10% of the base population. I, on the other hand had an island full of people to meet and there I was the exotic one (6'3", blond hair and blue eyes) so I had a hell of a time. So it was a really good decision for me to learn the language.

grizzlyjohnson

I'm with you 100% there! All I'm trying to say to everyone is to really advocate doing things that will solve real problems. Otherwise we're just hating to be hating and that's not going to solve anything.

Yep, I think that there isn't much that we are not agreeing on. And I think that the two groups screwing us over on both sides are the Mexican and American goverments. It sickens me that Mexico is willing to send it's people to another country because the same people send 20 billion back. And American politicians are willing to turn a blind eye for the back street deals. Screw them both.

smert

Exempt? So you are now saying that it should be a requirement to learn Spanish? What, like by law?

You know what, they made me learn goddamn algebra in high school and I've never needed it once in later life. Where's the mathematical outrage? I guess that was basically by law that I was subjected to the torture of algebra and geometry which were both a complete and total waste of time for me. That time would have been much better learning spanish. Germans are required to take English classes through their school years. I opted to take German in high school, though, and even though I only had it for three years, I still speak it quite well and have tried to improve over the years and keep it current.

But no, I don't advocate requiring spanish. I advocate requiring American students to learn at least one language starting in elementary school and going through high school because I think the failure to do that is at the core of a lot of this English only xenophobia, but we can't even teach kids how to make change right, so I'm not sure how that's going to work.

smert

Yep, I think that there isn't much that we are not agreeing on. And I think that the two groups screwing us over on both sides are the Mexican and American goverments. It sickens me that Mexico is willing to send it's people to another country because the same people send 20 billion back. And American politicians are willing to turn a blind eye for the back street deals. Screw them both.

And also don't forget that if we Americans go down to Mexico and pull a fraction of the bullshiat some mexicans pull here it's a long time until we're heard from again. You can get away with a lot down because of lax enforcement, but it is totally not worth getting caught.

ATMs in Tijuana say:

Oprima "dos" para ingles, pinche.

Oprima "dos" para ingles, pinche.

LOL

Oh and did I state that this guy is a total asshole?

It his farking buisness, if he wants everyone to wear pink dresses to wrk he can ask that as well. It disgusts me how so many people don't respect the freedom of people, just because they are successful. If you want into my house, or want to work in my buisness, you have to do what I say. Your freedom to speak a language of your choice doesn't mean I have to hear it in my home or business.

sent this to the B and B. You can find contact information on their web page Virgina Higland B&B

To the mods -> Totally public information. Took me a half a second google search, and I even got driving directions.

anyway... the letter!

Saw this little bit in the news... http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2006/12/10/1211metlangu age.html

~~"I really resent feeling like a stranger in my own land," says Northrup, the owner of the Virginia Highland Bed & Breakfast in Atlanta~~

thought you might like a look at this... http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html

some highlights...

"The Cherokees in 1828 were not nomadic savages. In fact, they had assimilated many European-style customs, including the wearing of gowns by Cherokee women. They built roads, schools and churches, had a system of representational government, and were farmers and cattle ranchers. A Cherokee alphabet, the "Talking Leaves" was perfected by Sequoyah."

"In one of the saddest episodes of our brief history, men, women, and children were taken from their land, herded into makeshift forts with minimal facilities and food, then forced to march a thousand miles(Some made part of the trip by boat in equally horrible conditions). Under the generally indifferent army commanders, human losses for the first groups of Cherokee removed were extremely high"

So. If you could, for a moment, imagine how the Cherokee must feel in Atlanta.

Timdesuyo I'll tell you how the Cherokee feel in Atlanta:
Since its 2006 not 1828, it doesn't really matter. I mean I'm of Czech heritage but I'm not angry at germans for invading back in WWII.

Oh wait, never mind. I deserve reperations for my suffering.

dallashockey69: i say we make all government forms available in spanish and english. hispanics make up a significant portion of our poulation and will soon control politics.

That wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they invade us in droves, would it?

nothing wrong with that at all. why dont we embrace the culture? is that so bad?

Why don't they embrace ours instead?

we have embraced many different cultures in the US to make it the great country it is and now a bunch of racists are trying to put walls up and isolate our nation from the world.

It's racist and bigoted to try to preserve our culture? If I wanted to be Mexican, I'd move to Mexico. Believe it or not but I like being American.

we should also make it mandatory to learn spanish ENGLISH in schools.

Fixed that for ya.

whats wrong with knowing more than one language. travel to other countries and you will see that many of the people know multiple languages. including english.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason other countries need to have multiple languages is because they're sandwiched between multiple countries, each speaking a different language (ala Europe)? We have 30 million Canadians to the North, 120 million Mexicans to the south and 300 million English speaking Americans in between. See the thing is, we don't need to know more than one language to get by in our day to day life.

ATMs in spanish piss me right the hell off (in America...). If I was Korean, Japanese, Russian, Italian, etc etc, I would want my language choice too! Why do the mexicans get special treatment? If we're such a racially friendly melting plot, then lets play fair!

Also, English is found as a second choice in Europe because English is the most commonly known. French know English. Germans know English. French !=German, etc. (on average.)

I'm just tired of living in America, and being surrounded in nothing but Spanish whenever I try and obtain services outside of Target or Walmart. If I wanted to live in a spanish speaking country, Mexico is only a quick drive south.

/and if that makes me a bigot, then so be it.

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Also known for the quote, " I do not beleive in hyphenated Americanism ".