diablo-

i am totally against making english the "official" language. i think since we have so many hispanics in our country it is appropriate to post signs and forms and such in spanish and english. hispanic immigrants do try and learn english. it just takes some time. so while they are learning why not have things posted in both languages? it helps them learn english actually. just like when i see signs in both languages i try to learn the spanish it is posted in.

kyoryu

Every single immigrant that I have met, from lots of different countries has learned to speak English. Except those from Latin America.

Less to do with the origins of the immigrants than with the context into which they immigrate. For example, in Canada we have plenty of immigrant communities in which a significant proportion of their population speak only shattered English (or French). The immigrants who have the easiest time learning English, and thus superficially assimilating to their new homes, tend to be the ones who have been educated in English in their home countries, at least as a second language, and those who are not able to live in close contact with significant populations from their home country.

You want latinos to become fluent in English? Colonize their home countries and institute an English-language education system, and draw up legislation that prevents the formation of ethnic neighbourhoods. Good luck with that.

Well the problem is that the advocates of early bilingual education are majority Spanish. And the very last thing that we need is the goverment telling us that our kids need to speak spanish.

Seeming over half the people in the Americas speak spanish I think its a damn fine idea for every single american to be required to learn it. Increase communication with our Latin American brothers and stop the divide. Not learning on some moral ground is retarded. Knowing another language will do nothing but help you.

PirateKing: But I think my main point here is that we should have a reasonable expectation of assimilation from people looking to come here and be a part of America. We should expect them to come and make the effort. I appreciate other cultures, and I think they have a positive impact. But the burden of adaptation ultimately rests with the immigrant. If they are going to come and take advantage of what the US has to offer, then they have to accept the responsibility and make the effort to be a part of the US.

I would definitely agree with you on this.

The US doesn't have an official national language, but that's merely a technicality. I'm starting to get tired of all the concessions we're making to avoid hurting people's feelings. I don't expect the first generation of any wave of immigrants to become Toastmasters overnight, but shouldn't they be able to purchase groceries or pay bills in English?

Depending on the business, if they offer their bills only in English, then yes, the person that pays that bill would have to learn English in order to function at a basic level here.

But, what about other scenarios?

Wouldn't a company that does offer its documents in a second language all of a sudden have the possibility of all this other business that English-only companies don't have?

Also, if someone comes to the US because of the opportunities we have, as opposed to where they grew up, it's not hard to imagine that they never had access to the tools to learn English before they came here. That doesn't mean they won't make the effort once they get here. So, shouldn't we allow concessions for those people, to help them along as they live, work, and attempt to learn English?

How does saying "No, you can't do anything until you speak our language" help anybody?

I'm not arguing because it's inconvenient to me personally, or to anyone else. I'm arguing this side because of the principle of the thing. Even if an immigrant takes the time to come here legally, and attempts to become a citizen, they will never be considered an American by most natural born citizens until they can have a basic conversation in English. It's simple human nature. If we can't easily communicate, then we will always remain foreign to each other.

And again, I agree.
But, my main point is, what if we upped the number of American-born citizens that speak a second language?
Doesn't that also help eliminate the problems of not being able to communicate?
What if, as I've been saying, we do both? Teach immigrants English, while at the same time teaching our own population other languages.

Electrify,

"hate to dissapoint this closet racist, but this is a multicultural planet and America is a multicultural country. Don't like it??? Then do us all a favour and get out of this nation and off this planet."

How is insisting on a common language being racist? Oh, I get it. If you screech racism it ends the discussion and you don't have to defend your own (possibly racist?) views.

Better to cry racist than have to explain why everyone should learn a dozen languages to make sure nobody gerts their feelings hurt?

"Otherwise it is a violation of freedom of speach laws, and the ACLU should eat this guy up for breakfast."

Please read the Constitution before reading TFA. Freedom of speech does not appli yo you saying anything you want whenever you want. Otherwise you could call the ACLU for Drew not letting you use the "N" word on fark.

As for TFA, the guy owns a business and he's within his rights to determine if English is his business' official language. For all you know he found out they weren't complimenting him when the called his mom a puta.

How is it less racist when you force Americans to learn Cantonese because California has a sizable percentage of Chinese ex-pats than tl have the immigrants learn English?

Scratched,
"ot that big of a difference, really, when you realize that I'm talking about English-only laws like the ones mentioned."

As I said. It's got much to do with a pendulum swing caused in no small part by the forced expenditure of money on having to print the rules in twenty languages.

Think I'm kidding? Go to a DMV in California and look at the documentation. It must be costing a boatload of money just to let people drive in their own language. Why should we have to pay for that?


Do I agree with you that learning a language is a good thing? Of course. I'm one of the smallish percentage of people who has been abroad. That said, it's not only more efficient to require English, it is common decency on the part of the immigrants. I learned a little of the local language in other countries so I could get along and it's not being the typical bad American if we ask the same.

Thought I'd offer a fresh perspective...

I really resent feeling like a stranger in my own land," says Northrup, the owner of the Virginia Highland Bed & Breakfast in Atlanta. "No Spanish on my dime."

He's an asshole.

Thank you, thank you...

kyoryu

Sure, let's make 'em bilingual and teach 'em Chinese.

If that's what they want and the school system can make it available, why not? I don't have a problem with kids learning Spanish, thats my second language, but it was right for me. Why make kids put in the time and effort to learn a second language if it's not one that the have an interest in? I mean there are a lot of kids into Asian culture and if they had the opportunity to learn Japanese of Chinese they might take it.

smert: Well the problem is that the advocates of early bilingual education are majority Spanish. And the very last thing that we need is the goverment telling us that our kids need to speak spanish. I learned Spanish when I was 23 years old because I was motivated to do so. Putting the carrot out there got me moving. But creating an infrastructure where all our kids are taught English and Spanish is suspect and not necessarily the best approach. I wouldn't even have a problem with having a second language requirement with testing as long as the kids choose the language.

I'm fine with that.
I never said everyone needs to learn Spanish. As long as kids are getting enrolled in second-language programs, it should be up to the parents to decide what their child learns.
Given the limited resources, however, the choices at a lot of schools would probably be pretty limited (i.e., at my high school, the only foreign languages offered were French or Spanish).

But that doesn't change the fact that any effective foreign language education is preferable to none at all.

That will happen regardless. Immigrants have and will continue to bring a lot to this country.

And, yeah, I suppose that was a false comparison on my part...
I guess what I should've said is that laws like this give the impression that we aren't willing to absorb other cultures, thereby further removing whatever motivation immigrants might have for trying to absorb into our culture.

Dallas,
"i think since we have so many hispanics in our country it is appropriate to post signs and forms and such in spanish and english."

Why not German? After all they were a very large percentage of early Americans. Why not Cantonese or Mandarin, too? By not have a six-foot tall street sighn at every intersection?

What? Not a good idea? bbbut you say it's only right to do this for Spanish speakers. Do you think we are so stupid we can't learn your farking language? Maybe you are just predisposed to making sure hispanics are a long term source of caring for your kids, mowing your lawns, and washing your clothes?

I think the people who want to "accomodate" the hispanic population are by and large whites. I have to wonder when a white person tells me I don't need to learn English.

Prolly the same people who think Ebonics is "good" enough for blacks, too.

Multi-Culti == not sharing the wealth. Makes me think of the French immigrants' much higher joblesness.

I'll take assimilation over Bannaleus (probably misspelled).

mount.diablo

Good God. I can't believe I'm probably arguing with a bunch of "white" people in favor of forcing my homies to learn English.

It's almost like the multi cultis want to keep the brown man speaking spanish and cleaning their toilets.

i lol'd. sounds like a pretty good example of people trying to be too pc and pretend they're not racist/sexist/ageist/etc.

people need to admit that everyone is discriminatory. the determination of whether or not youre viewed as a bigot is how well you hide it.

Mount.diablo por que odias el espanol tanto?

I'm sure that some clueless cockwarts will start screaming about how racist this is, but "English only" policies are nothing new.

I went to a high school outside the US that flew the UN flag. We had an English-only policy there. This was many years ago, and the policy still stands. I've also worked in many workplaces here in the US that had English only policies.

This guy is getting press because a)he's from "the south" and b)it riled up some pro-illegal reporters.

"Mateo Perez said he was thrilled when Northrup took him to Borders bookstore and bought the Spanish-English dictionary of his choice. "I told him if he learns English, he can own his own business," Northrup said. "If not, he'll just work for me.""

wow. He took an employee to the store and is encouraging him to learn English. I see nothing wrong with this.

/was the only American white guy in his entire high school.
//knows a farkload about being 'the minority'

Scratched,

"How does saying "No, you can't do anything until you speak our language" help anybody?"

Why are we all able to discuss this topic? Because by and large, our computers are speaking a standard language.

diablo-

now you are being ridiculous. hispanics make up a large enough portion of our population that it is appropriate for sapnish signs. i didnt know we had a large german or cantonese speaking population. and ebonics for blacks is ridiculous. people who speak in ebonics are just lazy. they are born and raised in america and go to american schools where english is a first language. and i take offense to your comments about me wanting hispanics to do my babysitting, lawnservices and such.

evilstein: He took an employee to the store and is encouraging him to learn English. I see nothing wrong with this.

Huh. "Encouraging."

Well I thought it was funny.

Chester,

I don't hate it. I don't speak much of it either. Do you hate the English that much?

My mom made sure I knew that I couldn't get far speaking anything but English. I was the first generation in my family to complete college. My cousin and I were the first to crack six figures.

My sons will be the Boobies grads if I have anything to do with it.

English has been good to me.

Scratched,
"if they had the opportunity to learn Japanese of Chinese they might take it. "

They already have the opportunity. It's just not required.

The Half Full Cup Of Urine:

Jag forstar!

/Jag talar svenska men jag forstar danska. Jag bodde i Helsingborg for ett ar
/Det var latt att lara svenska
/Jag kan sex sprak

"How does saying "No, you can't do anything until you speak our language" help anybody?"

Why are we all able to discuss this topic? Because by and large, our computers are speaking a standard language.

And you're point is...

Iay onlyay eakspay igpay atinlay

/itquay uppressingsay emay

JC

Ive been around Atlanta GA.
Many local whites and blacks cannot speak English, let alone the immigrants.

"English, muthu farker! Do you speak it?"

kyoryu: There's been times (don't know if it's true now) that Illinois, ferinstance, had sizable German immigrant populations.


German not so much anymore,
but I have know a lot of Polish in Chicago that cannot speak English.
(Tend to be the old folks, all the kids seem to be fluent.)

mount.diablo

I don't hate it. I don't speak much of it either. Do you hate the English that much?

Most people like you that are opposed to Spanish being spoken in the u.s. only speak one language. I think this is a fear of having to learn another language yourself. Kind of difficult isn't it?

Other languages are nothing to be scared of. They don't define a country either. Most countries have several languages spoken in them.

I don't hate english. But I only look at it as a tool for communication, not as some defining characteristic of my national identity or something so silly.

Dallas,
"i didnt know we had a large german or cantonese speaking population. and ebonics for blacks is ridiculous. "

German *was* a predominant language in the earlier years. Using your standard, our signs should have been bilingual from the start. As recently as WWII we had enough of a German-centric population that Hitler had predicted the U.S. would fall from within. He was wrong about where their loyalties were but he war righ in thinking that there was a fair sized population with German roots.

California has a fairly large Asian ppulation, many of whome speak (spoke) Cantonese. Ebonics may sound odd to you now but a few short years ago, there were many in the black community wanting it to get recognition as either a language or at least a dialect.

It seems to me you're stuck on Spanish as being the only valid choice. Warum? Perhaps you prefer Spanish and you think everyone should accomodate you?

Learning English does not mean giving up your language or culture. What it DOES mean is you have a better chance of a successful life in the U.S. This is no different than learning Mandarin to succeed in the PRC.

For that matter I work at a large company where there are people from all over. In larger meetings it would occasionally happen that some people would break off in their first language, pretty much because they could discuss without disturbing the rest of the group. But over time it became a problem because key discussions were being done on the side. Eventually one of the VP's made a proclamation that English is what we speak and we all need to speak it in order to have good team dynamics. That VP is Chinese. Were there mumurs of racism? No, because they know that he was right. Everyone on the team needs to be able to communicate effectively.

The same is true in society. There has to be a means where people can communicate effectively enough that we can work together and teaching the 90% the language of the 10% is not an efficient way to do this.

"Most people like you that are opposed to Spanish being spoken in the u.s. only speak one language...Kind of difficult isn't it? "

LMAO. Not for me.

Afraid of languages? After boot camp, I went to the DLI.

Look it up.

I have lost most of my language skills. It's as simple as use it or lose it. I'll admit to not having exerted myself to keep the skills up, but I'm hardly someone who hates any languages. Hell, I've seriously considered going back to school and getting into international relations for my empty nesting years. Does that sound like a Xenophobe to you?

Most people like you are worried that having to use English in the U.S. somehow damages their Mmachismo.

See how easy it is to use "Most people..." inaccurately?

Here's an idea that should suit everyone who really thinks we should be able to have an official language while allowing for non "X" speaking immigrants.

Every school in the world should teach Esperanto. There should be an Esperanto exam required to graduate from whatever school system exists.

A world language that is not tied to any particular culture or country would solve some of the arguments here.

echinuts: Most people immigrate because they dont like where they were. So why are they trying to recreate where they came from?

Most people like where they come from just fine, they just want a good job, or half the time, just some particular job. And yeah, plenty of them will return to their home countries at some point. That doesn't even count the people who are dual or triple citizens (not uncommon these days).

I speak English at work. I speak Japanese with my friends and at home. I can't imagine what it must be like to only know one language, quite frankly.

I can tell you there are hordes of American expats in Japan who don't bother learning the language and go all out to find turkeys to celebrate US Thanksgiving with, and they send their kids to English-only schools. Vast majority are planning to go back to the US after a few years, they're only over there for some job.

Meanwhile, they can get drivers' licenses while barely able to read, and all the train ticket machines now have English on them, even. My, how they're coddled.

When it comes to immigrants intending to be permanent, the usual pattern (everywhere, and forever, as referenced in TFA too) is the adults learn a bit of the new language, maybe (some jobs don't really require or allow it), the kids are bilingual because they go to local school, and THEIR kids often don't know their grandparents' language (although these days more people are keeping it up).

This was the same with the Germans in the US. People forget about that now because the Spanish speaking wave is the new foreign terror, but unlike the myth people didn't just up and learn English magically in a year then either.

Requiring people to have the skill of speaking English is not news.
Requiring people only speak English or will be fired is farking stupid.

Employee 1: Sup
Employee 2: Hola!

Emplyee 2 - FIRED!

Chester Fields
Most people like you that are opposed to Spanish being spoken in the u.s. only speak one language. I think this is a fear of having to learn another language yourself. Kind of difficult isn't it?

Other languages are nothing to be scared of. They don't define a country either. Most countries have several languages spoken in them.

I don't hate english. But I only look at it as a tool for communication, not as some defining characteristic of my national identity or something so silly.

I don't think people are scared of other languages but the fact is that the biligual advocates are by large the same people who are pro-illegal advocates. When you see a million Mexicans marching and chanting "el pueblo unido, jamas sera vencido" while waving Mexican flags you get an idea why people might be a little concerned.

mount.diablo, sounds like you still only speak one language, so how have I used "most people" inaccurately?

look it up
I've heard of it ;).

Most people like you are worried that having to use English in the U.S. somehow damages their Mmachismo.

Funny, you had to use the word "machismo" to express that thought.

mount.diablo: Most people like you are worried that having to use English in the U.S. somehow damages their Machismo.

It's interesting - I can understand the need to speak English at work (certainly with the boss and customers, with coworkers depends on the situation and who's around), and I can understand the DESIRE for government publications to be in English only (although when it comes to things like safety/fire/police/DMV, usually they are voluntarily publishing in foreign languages because it's actually more efficient than having a bunch of people - including vacationing tourists - who can't access services and end up causing all kinds of trouble).

But digging into a lot of rhetoric about the "English only" bills, very quickly they always devolve into people complaining about private businesses having foreign signage, or stores wanting to hire Spanish/English bilinguals, or people upset about simply having to HEAR a foreign language spoken around them at all.

That's where I find it ridiculous, and agree with someone now waaaaay upthread who said he might be able to get behind some of the workplace provisions if there were ever any that didn't have that whiff of plain xenophobia lurking just beneath the surface.

If the market makes money speaking some non-English language to sell some ethnic products, all the power to it. As long as the store has a big number address, let it alone.

smert,

I don't think people are scared of other languages... When you see a million Mexicans marching and chanting "el pueblo unido, jamas sera vencido" while waving Mexican flags you get an idea why people might be a little concerned.

Ok, people are "concerned" about having to learn other languages.

Good. "Must Be Able To Speak English Fluently" should always be listed as a job requirement.

I came here to say this same thing, but took the time to read the article and the thread before I did.

QFT:


flavor of the month

given the odds that her staff are working illegally i'd say she's trying to have her cake and eat it too.


Bestbank Tiger

If this is such a problem, why did this "hero" hire a non-English speaker in the first place?


smeegle

I call shenannigans- She's just trying to cover her ass for hiring illegals and paying them pennies on the dollar.



The real issue is money. The lady in the article should have hired native-born Georgians if hearing Spanish was so distressing for her. But it looks like she wasn't willing to pay the price for English-speaking help, and ended up hiring people less valuable to the marketplace because they were cheaper.

Now she is trying to have her cake and eat it too. She rationalizes that it is for the workers' own good, but in the end her own xenophobia comes shining through - as does that of very many Farkers posting in this thread.

Xenophobia is the fear, mistrust, or hatred of those who are different. It's deeply emotional in basis, though people try to rationalize it with logic. Learning another language for commercial reasons is purely pragmatic, and not emotional - whether it's so you can communicate with your low-paid immigrant workers, or so you can communicate with your employer or clients.

I lived in France for two years, and Taiwan for another two, back in the Eighties. I was motivated to learn the languages because I wanted to communicate with people there, because it made life easier, and in the case of Taiwan it made it easier to find teaching jobs - all fairly pragmatic reasons. In both countries were groups of English-speaking expatriates who were wealthy enough to not have to bother to learn the language, and surrounded themselves with a buffer of bilingual help and professionals. Some of the wives hated living there, and wouldn't have anything to do with the locals if they could help it - but loved the company-provided houses, servants, chauffeured limos, etc.

I marveled at how ambitious people were in Taiwan to learn English, Japanese, and other languages. While some did it for the love of learning, most did it for purely pragmatic reasons - to make a buck. They knew that with Taiwan's involvement in international trade and manufacturing that they could get ahead if they were were able to woo clients in English. This wasn't because they only traded with Americans, British, Canadians, or other native-born English speakers, it was because the Italians, Germans, Koreans, and even the French would come to them speaking the lingua franca of the modern business world - English. They learned and spoke these foreign languages, especially English, in order to function in their own country, and not necessarily to do business abroad.

Though French was much easier to learn than Mandarin Chinese, nobody just picks it up with any degree of fluency in only a month, especially in the setting of an average rural home - in spite of what Farkeologist might have you believe. I was immersed in a formal French-only learning environment for two months before going over there, and my first few months in France were still a struggle.

What I'm seeing mostly in this thread is egotism, xenophobia, and ethnocentrism, and not really a discussion of the practical reasons for learning English. While this country is driven by many things, including superstition and fear, it also driven by the desire to make a buck.

The immigrant who does get the necessary papers and learns English may end up pricing him or herself out of a job, if someone without those qualifications is willing to work more cheaply. I don't think that Adele Northrup from the article, and others of her ilk, will pay more for those workers - because she wasn't willing to do so originally.

As long as there is a place in our economy for people who don't speak English, and they are willing to accept those positions, there is no financial incentive for them to learn English. Just the same as native-born, English-speaking Americans who settle for jobs which pay minimum wage, or a couple bucks more. There will always be people who are willing to settle, and other people who are willing to exploit/accommodate them. Making new laws without teeth won't help, as demonstrated by people who are already here illegally because of the financial incentive.


I wanted to add that I am really getting a kick out of all of the theoretical polyglots here, who swear that they would learn the language if they ever went to another country. I recommend starting with learning Canadian or British.

itazurakko,

"If the market makes money speaking some non-English language to sell some ethnic products, all the power to it."

As I said waaay up the thread, I don't care that much about signage. Where I argued was when cretain people were saying that WE were wrong by not learning the languages of newcomers. Is it a good thing to learn new languages? Absolutely. Does your viewpoint improve by knowing different things? Sure. Should we force people to learn languages to accomodate someone who is essentially visiting us?

No. Absolutely not.

I've been to several countries, mostly in Asia. I appreciated their cultures, tried my hand in speaking a little of their language, and showed them respect.

Is it too much to ask from others that some of the respect they would like us to show is reciprocated? I think not.

"people upset about simply having to HEAR a foreign language spoken around them at all."

As I said before. It's no accident these quotes make it into articles. It reinforces the sterotype that Americans are Xenophobic retards. These are quotes that may well be way out of context. Unless I can see the entire unedited content, I take everything with a grain of salt these days.

Chester,
"mount.diablo, sounds like you still only speak one language, so how have I used "most people" inaccurately?"

Are you practiced at reading only what you want to read or are you just not comprehending what I've been saying about having known and forgotten languages?

"Funny, you had to use the word "machismo" to express that thought."

Oh yeah, ha ha. The non spanish speaking guy accidentally used a spanish word.

I wonder if maybe English is just a bit too challenging for you. that's a shame, espescially if you're trying to show you are representative of the benefits of the multi-culti fad.

"The immigrant who does get the necessary papers and learns English may end up pricing him or herself out of a job, "

So don't learn english and keep the lower paying job.

What a concept!

That jibes pretty well with what I said earlier. God forbid those Brownies learn how to speak english well enough to threaten our GOOD jobs.

Sigh.

And people think the English required crowd is racist.

Wanna get an immigrant to speak english?Dock 'em a dollar on their check.All the sudden you'll see how fast they speak english.

(Worked a couple of years out of high school as the only english speaking ,non manager, employee.They pull the "I no a speaka english" BS when it suits them)

Are you practiced at reading only what you want to read or are you just not comprehending what I've been saying about having known and forgotten languages?

This statement says you only speak English.

Oh yeah, ha ha. The non spanish speaking guy accidentally used a spanish word.

The fact that you used a Spanish word is not funny. The fact that you proved my point that languages are only tools for expression, is.

kyoryu: There's been times (don't know if it's true now) that Illinois, ferinstance, had sizable German immigrant populations.

Same with Central TX. Maybe dallashockey needs to look at a map.

/A map printed in English, of course...

mount.diablo,

Sounds to me like you learned to say a few catchphrases and gave up. If you learned a bit more, it would have stuck with you.

mount.diablo

And people think the English required crowd is racist.


Care to elucidate?

Chester,

"he fact that you proved my point that languages are only tools for expression, is."

I hate to break it to you, but Macho and Machismo have been a part of English slang since I was a kid.

Knowing more than one language does not inherently make you better than me. I've learned and forgotten (counts on fingers) Three languages that I could converse in and some phrases in at least three more. I've been to several countries and I have enjoyed myself thouroughly.

Does any of this mean I am better than you? Not by itself. I am willing to accept that there are differences between my country and others without letting the differences make me think less of either place. As I stated clearly in the beginning, most people are pretty much the same.

Since you are quite the superior person, I have to ask.

When you visit another country, do you demand they speak to you in your language or do you try to make the best of it with the tools you have and *appreciate* efforts by the host people?

I never said we should ban Spanish but I don't think excoriating someone who does not wish to be forced to learn a foreign language is appropriate. The fact remains that it is the newcomer who should try to make the effort.

I sure hope you make the effort when you travel. To not do so would make you a Bad American (or Englishman or other foreigner as you please).