Dragon Goddess - ...it would be absolutely retarded for me to give up my education to sit at home and play house wife for a 9-5 cubicle boy who will probably have a harder time getting a good paying job than I will.

Gadzooks! Does Cubicle Boy know about this Dragon Goddess?

Dragon Goddess is onto something there. Jude the Obscure was a wonderful book, but it changed nothing in the halls of Christminster. I faced and made the same choice (doctorate first, then marraige and family). To me family trumps all other needs, but academic (and especially doctoral) programs are usually unforgiving of life's other requirements.

"If you aren't a student alone and above all things then you aren't a serious student at all." (That's an actual quote from the professor who told me I was qualified for the honors program, then rejected my honors application on the grounds that I had a part-time job to help pay expenses.) It's pure elitism and it's still there. So, unfortunately, if someone chooses to pursue a doctorate, then it's almost certainly wise to wait on getting married and starting a family. Otherwise at some point that person will have to make the awful choice between the two.

bronzeglory

That is not often the case, but I always enjoy bringing it up so someone can defend male circumcision as being a-okay.

Female circumcision is virtually unheard of in South Africa, but male circumcision is quite common. We're not talking about the antiseptic procedure you see in the United States, we're talking about standing naked outdoors and having your tackle sliced with a rusty machete. As you can imagine, a not entirely uncommon result is that the poor sod subjected to that soon finds his johnson has fallen clean off.

Now, it should be noted that male circumcision of any kind among whites in South Africa is also practically non-existent.

Dragon Goddess

You are so cute when you're mad.

Desperately needed in America, where most women brag about not being able to cook.

Dragon Goddess

less talky more fetchy

Listen, you do what you have to do, but don't degrade other women who CHOOSE this sort of life, because that is FAR more insulting.

/get back in the kitchen!

Correction, male circumcision among whites (and just about everyone else, for that matter) damn near everywhere in the world bar the United States is practically non-existent, to the point that one could very well argue it is entirely a cultural phenomenon. Yes, Americans slicing up their children are engaging in a cultural act of genital mutilation. I mean, truly, what's the usual reason given for allowing it? "I don't want little Johnny to feel different."

Margaret Mead would have a field day.

Dear feminazis in this thread:

You're idiots.

Bootcamps work by basically following the "BITE" model as far as controlling their Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions by isolating them, repeating the same bullshiat over and over, and telling them how they should think, and making it all 'sink in' with a big dose of exhaustion, humiliation, intimidation, and general regression.

Its how ALL bootcamps work. The question should not be if its demeaning to WOMEN, it should be if "bootcamps" and ALL forms of isolation/detainment based regressional camps are an abuse or not, and if they're effective or not.

That is all.

/flame suit ON

I say good! It's time they relearned the values that served past generations so well. Women need to realize that their bodies are MADE for domestic life. They rear the children and hold down the fort while the men provide for the family. They biatch and moan about equal rights and all that when men and women aren't truly equal. It's asinine to try to apply the same expectations (professional and personal) to both men and women. The different sexes are supposed to do different things and this seems to be lost in the whole feminist brewhaha. The sooner women start to go back into the kitchen, the sooner we'll hear about improving test scores and less about school shootings. You hear that ladies? The decline of this country is squarely on your shoulders.

If my man were out stalking and killing bears and wild boars and such all day, I would have no problem with staying home and raising the kids and cleaning the house and all that stuff (wouldnt really have a problem with it now).

Its when the men started going to wussy office jobs (nothing wrong with offices, just not as "manly" as killing animals) and they started farking the secretary and then leaving their wives with no money (since the wife never had a job to earn her own money) that this ever became an issue. The man cared about feeding his family so that they would survive (hopefully) into adulthood and that was his main focus.

Now a woman can say "I dont want to stay home and clean your house and raise your kids while you're having drinks with your mates after your easy job and possibly farking other women, just so you can leave me for a younger woman in 10 yrs and I'll have no money and no life"

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I dont think our biological wiring is geared to todays lifestyle anymore. Yes, men are stronger but they dont NEED to be anymore because they're killing animals. Yes, women have the children, but they dont NEED to spend every waking hour watching them or cleaning the house, because other people can be paid to do that sort of thing.

Now that jobs (most jobs) dont require strength and the ability to run fast, and women dont have to carry their children around ever second of the day, we're both equally capable of doing the same jobs. Therefore, if a woman wants to work, its just the same as a man working. Also, she can make her own money so she doesnt have to be dependant on a man.

That being said, I dont see anything wrong with teaching kids of either gender to cook and clean. Its a very useful lifeskill whether you have a big family or you're living alone.

The article didnt say that the girls HAD to stay home chained to the stove.

They should have this for both gender's. Learning to take of your household will help you out a lot in life. This seems a little extreme, but the men have it worse in this case (from what they describe).

equusdc

Do you think the anthropologist, Margaret Mead' strange behavior of late might possibly be explained by a private
marijuana addiction?

Nihilanthic

I dunno, I went to "Java Bootcamp" and all we did was sit around drinking cocktails and scarfing at the buffet. The only exhaustion, humiliation and regression we suffered was explaining our hangovers each morning and the only intimidation we encountered involved the invoice and subsequent travel expense report for the experience.

Gothnet

I know that the circumcision practiced by African tribes is different than what happens here in hospitals; that's why I said "I don't agree with the way it is probably done on males in this situation, because beyond infancy it is quite painful". I'm not advocating extreme mutiliation for either gender.

Also, if there are women that can't manage to keep their labias clean, then maybe they do need to take a little off. Because that's a problem. :)

lilplatinum
Margaret Mead' strange behavior of late

If you've seen her wandering round lately, I suggest you put the pipe down for awhile...though she wouldn't have a problem with it...

equusdc

If you've seen her wandering round lately, I suggest you put the pipe down for awhile...though she wouldn't have a problem with it...

Its a quote from Fear and Loathing..

celtic004:

That... was beautiful.

/now let see who bites

Trolling? Because I blame school shootings on parents that aren't at home and involved with their kids' lives? If mom wasn't so caught up in her desire to compete with men in the business world, maybe little Johnny would have had someone to talk to other than a maid and maybe he'd have grow up to be a well-adjusted person, not a murderer.

What if Dad stayed home?

My husband has the patience of a saint, knows how to cook and clean (very well, too), and is planning on staying home with the baby. This was entirely his idea. I can't make a sammich without burning it to a crisp and I enjoy working outside the home, so I plan on going back to work. Both of us will be in the roles that make us happy. Our kid will still have one parent involved in her life full-time, and of course I will spend every free minute I can with her.

So, will she be the next school shooter since I'm out "competing with men in the business world" (read: working in the field that I love doing intellectually challenging work and making myself happy) and Dad's at home singing songs and playing with her?

/I guess I should respond to TFA too
//basic life skills should be taught to everyone, regardless of gender
///nothing wrong with this specific boot camp since the girls like it and their genitals don't get mutilated
////but leave the guys' junk alone! plz!

amen girljen. As long as everyone (in your family) is happy, who the fark cares?

Yes, Americans slicing up their children are engaging in a cultural act of genital mutilation. I mean, truly, what's the usual reason given for allowing it? "I don't want little Johnny to feel different."

Ahh.. the voice of everyone.

/glad i'm not a dog-dick

Nihilanthic

Its how ALL bootcamps work. The question should not be if its demeaning to WOMEN, it should be if "bootcamps" and ALL forms of isolation/detainment based regressional camps are an abuse or not, and if they're effective or not.

That is all.

/flame suit ON

Why do you think you'll be flamed for that?
The bootcamp concept is stupid. Whether it's effective or not is a touchy matter, I think in some ways it is, but I don't know if it justifies Sadism.

However, I think the analogy subby made is a little off. I don't agree with the concept of seperating women from society to drill in concepts about what their place in society is (in their society at least it doesn't appear to do much harm, but it is a very different society than the West.) This is more of a fostering of a woman community than a boot camp. They support one another and form a bond among women. I think some of those ideas are a great model for any society.

The headline remind me of my aunt's comment: "back in the 1930's in China, when we were young and progressive, we felt very uncomfortable with our wealth (when vast majority of people were so poor). I used to refuse to be driven to school. Then the family fortune was gone, and I came to United States, where I became not only the maid, but also the cook and chauffeur for my children. No more guilt."

It's too bad that some young men aren't taught how to cook simple meals, sew on a button or make simple clothing repairs, do laundry & clean. Not just because of gender equality, but to make it easier on them when they leave home & get their first place. Not only did I suggest to my son that he take home ec (which he did) when he was in middle school, but I taught him as well. I have a friend who I taught to cook because he grew up in an era where guys weren't allowed to take home ec and he got tired of eating frozen dinners, deli food & fast food. He couldn't even do something so simple as sew back on a missing button.

Nihilanthic

I forgot to ask: Where are the feminazis in this thread?

conniemac

Best thing I was ever taught was how to be an autodidact.

This "no one ever taught me how to bake a potato" crap really falls on deaf ears with me. Like, uhm, did you ever try throwing a damned potato into an oven just to see what happened? Maybe, like, pick up a copy of "The Way to Cook"?

Seriously, school should teach you how to learn. After that, it's all you, baby.

Yah, I was just thinking that. I didnt know how to cook much when I started college (even though my mom is a really good cook). I knew how to make pancakes and cookies I think.

But then its not really hard. I started by putting pasta in boiling water. Then I worked up to putting steaks on teh grill. Now I'm a pretty good cook.

Its not hard.

I never understand when I hear about these people that can't use a washing machine or cook basic foods. Its really, really simple.

you mean theres bootcamp for teenage girls?

all this time i was using it for xp! Wow!

Girls who go to bootcamp will eventually get knocked up by a guy that will be in prison before they can get married. Then she'll repeat the process several times before her kids are "removed" by Children's Services. Then she'll become a crackwhore and land in jail herself, unless they have bootcamp for middle-aged crackwhores, too.

/Just kidding
//but not really

i'm as liberal as the next guy, but I think when it comes to family, the moms should atleast know how to prepare a basic meal since they probably will do most of the care taking. Most of the females i know agree with this, yet most don't even know how to boil water or wash clothes. This program would be useful for everyone, male or female.

One argument a lot of you seem to be relying on is the claim that "in history, man leave cave, bring home meat, woman sit there waiting for him," when actually in hunter-gatherer societies women (who did the majority of gathering) actually provided most of the nutrition for their tribe. Even back in caveman days, women were not expected to chase around after infants/scrub the cave walls until they passed out. Also, there is proof that women were oftentimes active participants in hunts, and men helped with gathering. A strict division of labor is actually very rare in past societies. In fact, the Bushman are recognized by many anthropologists to be the happiest people in the world, and they have almost no discernable division of labor between the sexes. One of the few apparent differences in child-rearing activities is when women nurse the children. Outside of that, people spend equal amounts of time in the domestic/social spheres. In my personal opinion rigid roles for the sexes is ultimately misguided, but in the end it comes down to what works for each couple individually, if one person wants to stay home and the other wants to work all day, then that's their choice; if another couple wants to work equally and divide up the household chores with each other, that's cool. But neither sex should be required to behave one way over the other.

pixeled

What's a dog dick?

Err...

If you can read a recipe book, you can cook. If you can look at a mop and bucket and not immediately know how to use them, you're an idiot. What else you got?

Laundry? Usually self-explanatory with modes on the machines tied to the type of laundry. If not, it's as simple as learning what goes in cold and what goes in hot water, and which mode on the dryer to use. It takes all of three seconds to explain the difference, and it doesn't really matter all that much if you f it up.

Vaccuuming? Press button, roll over floor.

Seriously, these aren't skills. These young people that people in this thread are saying "can't" cook/clean, etc., really just "won't".

I probably expended more intellectual effort learning how to tie a windsor knot than I did learning all of the domestic chores combined.

And no, I didn't do many of them at home. I did outside work, the dishes, and cleaned my room and bathroom. The first time I did my own laundry or cooked was after I moved out.

feralbaby

The bootcamp concept is stupid. Whether it's effective or not is a touchy matter, I think in some ways it is, but I don't know if it justifies Sadism.

Bootcamp-style group initiations are highly effective. Studies have been done on the psychology behind them, and from what I've read, people feel a much closer bond with people who they've gone through hell with, even if that hell is completely artificial and imposed on them by other people who went through the same thing. It also feeds on peoples' inherent belief that the harder/more expensive something is, the more valuable it is.

Same concept as hazing, adult-initiation rites, etc. People are manipulated (and I use that word without moral judgment) into loyalty to the group by these trials.

He couldn't even do something so simple as sew back on a missing button.

Aside from what my mother taught me, I learned most of my domestic skills in the Boyscouts. I guess that was something relegated to my Troup, or there are a lot of kids who never went to Scouts.

I quit when I was old enough to resent being told what to do by a flaming stranger in shorty-shorts, but I learned a lot of good stuff while I was in...

How do I sign my g/f up?

You. Kitchen. Sammich.

I like the sound of that.

celtic004

You're so cute when you're wrong.


Nihilanthic

Why would any self-respecting feminist flame you for that?

bigforearms

Those are all great points, and I would agree with them, though I admit I've done very little research on the subject.

I guess what concerns me about this bootcamp model are all the opportunities for that kind of power to get out of control, and the little that the initiates can do about it. If you get a completely demented person in authority you're pretty much SOL, you still have to follow them no matter what, and if you complain you are threatened with discipline, expulsion, called a derogatory term alluding to your sexual orientation... you get the idea.

bigforearms
These young people that people in this thread are saying "can't" cook/clean, etc., really just "won't".

Agreed. When I went to college almost every guy I met had never in his life done laundry. Same with a lot of the girls. How do people live with themselves sending their children (regardless of sex) out into the world not knowing how to take care of themselves?

But then again, these kids don't have any interest in doing these things. I'm 27 and most of my friends are stunned by the fact that I can cook, knit, sew, clean, do laundry, change the oil in my car, change a tire, install a toilet/plumbing and a million other little things that I think everyone should probably know how to do.


/Knitting? Yeah, not a necessity, but a dying art form.
//I live and die by my favorite quote from Heinlein:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

What is worng with a cultural "boot camp" that happens to teach young women some cleaning along with the wisdom of the women of their people. The young men are taken away for their own cultural training. Maybe there are sexist elements, but the real lesson isn't cooking, or hunting, or whatever the exact tasks are. It's how to be a young adult in their particular society. It's how to network and do what needs doing. It's being part of a tribe. Not for everyone, but if they choose it, they should be able to continue the traditions (expect for dangerous mutilations that invite disease and decay--some traditions need to die).

Taking the discussion out of it's cultural context makes little sense. In the Western world, you can find both men and women who dominate and take advantage of their partner. Ah Love. Makes the world go around.

Some of the trolls here remind me of reality TV shows like Wifeswap. I have watched them at times, and I learned one thing: no matter what you want in a mate, it is really out there somewhere. Tolls, you will find women who want to be your maid and slave. If you're both happy with it, fine.

I have seen families on TV where the man does everything, work and clean and parent. These shows have proved to me that not only are all men not sexist jerks, but some would even be happy to do it all for a woman. I have always wondered where those women found those men. The women don't look any hotter than anyone else. They don't seem nicer or smarter. How did they get the guy to worship them? Why don't I ever meet men like that?

This is not entirely a troll-back. I wonder what it would be like to be spoiled like that. I probably like equal relationships best, but I've never had a man who worked and gave me all the money, cleaned the house and rubbed my feet, so I'm not sure. If any Farkettes out there have such a man, please tell me how you found him.

Everyone should learn these skills. Always seemed weird to me that Home Economics was an elective class.

Oh, and bigforearms, there are skills involved in doing chores, it's not all obvious, if you want to do a good job. Like, when doing laundry, learning to add the bleach to the water first, and adding the clothes later, so they don't get bleach stains. Or knowing to wash the pots after the glasses, so the glasses actually get clean. Or knowing that vacuuming kicks up dust, so you should dust after, not before, unless you want to dust twice. Or knowing to cook meat and vegetables separately, at least until all the blood is gone... I could probably list 100 different optimisations on doing chores, that make a noticeable difference. Although, I do agree with the point you were getting at, that a lot of people just don't want to do chores, and will use whatever excuses not to.

"Seriously, these aren't skills. These young people that people in this thread are saying "can't" cook/clean, etc., really just "won't"

Very true. Women these days just won't do these things because feminists have told them that they don't have to. But they still want the best of both worlds. They won't cook or clean, but still expect to be pampered by the man that works all day.

Modern women (many of them, anyway) really do lack "life skills" and the ability to compromise. They just want it all.
When i was single & looking, I'd ask potential dates if they liked to cook and what some of their favourite dishes were. The chicks that said "I dont cook?" Off the list.

My current girlfriend likes to cook. The kicker is that I like to cook too. We trade off cooking each other meals, and it's worked out great. She cleans the bathroom, I vacuum the entire house. We share the responsibilities of life together.

evilstein
Modern women (many of them, anyway) really do lack "life skills" and the ability to compromise. They just want it all.
When i was single & looking, I'd ask potential dates if they liked to cook and what some of their favourite dishes were. The chicks that said "I dont cook?" Off the list.

I am glad you found someone who shares your interests. Don't assume people who enjoy different things and have different hobbies lack life skills and the ability to compromise (though you are better off with someone who enjoys food as much as you do). "I don't cook" may mean "I don't think cooking is important."

Personally, food is not that big of a deal to me. I feed myself and my family, but I would never spend more than 5-10 minutes on making food, and a certainly wouldn't want to talk about cooking for fun. If someone asks me if I cook, I say no even though that's a white lie. It's not that I won't cook, it's that I'm not going to make anything fancy. That doesn't mean I don't pull my own weight. I just don't like food that much.

I think it's a matter of priorities. I work. I do what needs doing. After that, my time is for things I like doing. If you think that makes me spoiled, so be it. Blame the feminists if you want to, but I just don't get any thrill out of it.

For most of us, the key to relationships isn't just finding someone who cooks. It is finding someone with common values and interests, then compromise and balance comes easier. Unless some Farkette can find me one of those men I mentioned earlier who do everything. Then I'd be willing to give pampered a try.

Wow. Taunting the Irony Police. Good job, Smitty.

/Everything's ironic now. Huzzah.

Everyone ought to be taught basic home skills. As in "girly" things like how to do laundry without turning your socks pink, how to sew a button back on, and the basics of cooking (stir frying and cooking pasta properly = mandatory skills). Also "manly" things like how to unclog a stuffed toilet, fix the pilot light when it's gone out, hook up your own electronics, and make minor repairs (the sort of things that involve a hammer or screwdriver rather than specialized tools). And gender neutral skills like how to balance a checkbook, evaluate credit card offers, and treat a cold. How-to-take-care-of-your-husband bootcamp is sexist, but not saying people should have some damn life skills. I wish there WERE basic life skills schools in this country, for both genders - and I wish they made people go through them before they let them have kids.

I sew for a living - nice traditional female thing to do, huh? I can even embroider by hand. And I certainly don't have my dad's skills as a handyman, if partly because my dad has mad handyman skillz. But I put in my own air conditioner and upgrade my own computer, and was delighted when I got a leatherman tool for my birthday a few years ago. Being able to do stuff myself saves time and money; and I like being the person who always knows what to do when a pair of pants rips or a cabinet door falls off its hinges. I don't care whose job it traditionally is. Ok, except cleaning; I just plain hate cleaning.

Oh what an original and radical idea! women and men aren't the same, and they have different abilities! women aren't better than men at everything men want to do! lol wait till we take our society back a couple notches, everything will fall into place.

andyfromfl

Oh what an original and radical idea! women and men aren't the same, and they have different abilities! women aren't better than men at everything men want to do! lol wait till we take our society back a couple notches, everything will fall into place.

Except it's more honest and is actually true. The problem comes when people confuse "different" with being "better" or "worse" and start to act high and mighty for being in the "better" crowd. The skills that are naturally feminine (or perhaps it's more precise to say "that come more naturally to females") are just as important to a fully functional society as the male counterparts. However, that is NOT the same as saying that "therefore, women should be expected to do this and men should be expected to do that." That is only a logical conclusion when you do not factor in people's happiness in making their own decisions.
And also, people forget that simply because the distributions for competency in a skill overlap, they are not 100% overlapping and that for certain skills, there is greater male variation (which means a higher percentage of men being much better AND much worse) or greater female variation (which means a higher percentage of women being much better AND much worse). There's also simply some things that women can do that men can't (ex - pregnancy) which required women to evolve a slightly distinct psychology to deal with that. Slightly distinct with vast ramifications.

Why are we the only species that we give a crap about this? Ants, bees, lizards, snakes, sharks, wolves, lions, and apes follow their nature and they get along fine and we don't care that they live in gender-stratified societies. Why the hell do we have to try and give human nature the middle finger? Do we really think that if we acknowledge differences we'll be submitting to some predestination bullcrap that "oh, because I'm a ____ than I can only do this"? Get over it. It's not that terrible.

We're only moving backwards when we shut ourselves off to the possibility that people can be responsible with honest information.

I say good! It's time they relearned the values that served past generations so well. Women need to realize that their bodies are MADE for domestic life. They rear the children and hold down the fort while the men provide for the family. They biatch and moan about equal rights and all that when men and women aren't truly equal. It's asinine to try to apply the same expectations (professional and personal) to both men and women. The different sexes are supposed to do different things and this seems to be lost in the whole feminist brewhaha. The sooner women start to go back into the kitchen, the sooner we'll hear about improving test scores and less about school shootings. You hear that ladies? The decline of this country is squarely on your shoulders.


it's posts like this that make me ENVY lesbians.

celtic004

You're so cute when you're wrong.

Hunh? Wrong about what? I'm afraid you're going to have to be specific.

And actually I'm cute all the time ;)