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(News.com.au)   Church prohibits family from displaying Australian flag during funeral of dead soldier   (news.com.au) divider line 36
    More: Asinine  
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7747 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Dec 2006 at 3:29 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



36 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2006-12-07 03:32:54 AM
Australian/Austrian Trifecta in play!

Yeah, I'm mocking the no-nots of geography.
 
2006-12-07 03:35:30 AM
The uniting church is actually a quite progressive one compared to others here in Australia.

I admire thier commitment to the separation of church and state, but this might be going a bit far.....
 
2006-12-07 03:36:41 AM
Put another shrimp on the barbie!

*checks link*

Awww... it really is Australia
 
2006-12-07 03:38:46 AM
Asinine in the extreme.
 
2006-12-07 03:48:27 AM
Interesting.

consdubya: I admire thier commitment to the separation of church and state, but this might be going a bit far.....

Agreed. Separation of church and state is a good thing, and there is an application of it to religious services - but I'd say that application is simply that the church should not, of its own accord, attempt to fly symbols of state at the religious funerals. However, as the funeral is about the dead person and his or her family, a request by such to have a flag as a representation of that person's commitment to his or her country - not the church's commitment - should be honored, no?
 
2006-12-07 03:49:30 AM
crikey.
 
2006-12-07 03:59:39 AM
consdubya & cheekymunky agree with both of you. Its his funeral he/his family should be able to have whatever flag they wants at it.
 
2006-12-07 04:00:28 AM
Where's Varg Vikernes when you need him?
 
2006-12-07 04:21:21 AM
people still belong to churches?
 
2006-12-07 04:24:12 AM
Religious assholes.......


They believe in the same make believe god as him, but refuse to let the family drap the flag of his choice over his casket?
 
2006-12-07 04:29:04 AM
watchmesuck: Put another shrimp on the barbie!

*checks link*

Awww... it really is Australia



The last time Austria had a dead soldier, an SS officer on holiday choked on a bratwurst.
 
2006-12-07 04:45:33 AM
I like the intertwining of church and state. It gives me licence to ignore both.

/making me an Antidistestablishmentarian. Woot.
 
2006-12-07 04:56:19 AM
Gavino: I like the intertwining of church and state. It gives me licence to ignore both.

/making me an Antidistestablishmentarian. Woot.


Nope... you'd just be a Disestablishmentarian who can't spell it... I think.

/wikiftw
//still confused
///might be wrong
 
2006-12-07 05:01:09 AM
Given two basic facts
1) Former soldier who served country in WW II
and
2) Requested flag was the national flag

The church showed very poor judgement in refusing the request. I would be more inclined to favor the churchs judgement if the request had been for something such as skull & crossbones.

Following the strict letter of the churchs policies, they did follow their rules. But to be honest, right or wrong, the church is going to look bad no matter what.
 
2006-12-07 06:10:11 AM
it's not the first time the church has done this (I think they did this to another WWII digger about a year ago)
 
2006-12-07 06:23:07 AM
Well, they got the publicity...
 
2006-12-07 06:35:26 AM
I have a growing hatred for that particular church. Course, I've only ever been to a Uniting Church (outside of PNG). I thought it was a great idea to get all the different versions of christianity under 1 roof.

But they then have standardised rules that they seek to apply to everyone. Their most recent spat was argueing over homosexuals as ministers I think. I went to a school which had been torn into 2 over allowing homosexual teachers. At least in these 2 instances there is an instance of faith at play. Who ever heard of blocking a serviceman from having his flag on his coffin?
 
2006-12-07 06:53:53 AM
Ken_b: PNG as in new papua new guinea ?

/lived in rabaul when I was a child
//early 80's
 
2006-12-07 07:00:21 AM
Ken_B: I have a growing hatred for that particular church. Course, I've only ever been to a Uniting Church (outside of PNG). I thought it was a great idea to get all the different versions of christianity under 1 roof.

Ummm...what?

It only combines the Methodist, Presbyterian (most of them, anyway) and Congregationalist Churches in Australia.
 
2006-12-07 07:00:58 AM
The United Church where I got married (to a woman) had a Canadian flag, a Union Jack, and a rainbow gay pride flag displayed in the sanctuary. It started off as a very patriotic Methodist congregation, but today is known for being intellectual, socially progressive, and "affirming" of gay members and even ministers.

I think that's pretty cool.
 
2006-12-07 08:09:53 AM
The article made no mention of the "rationale" used by the church in question regarding their decision to ban the flag. Can anyone think of a reason?

Maybe it's because I'm an atheist, but I don't see where the church is coming from on this one. Do flags on coffins make god angry? Why should this matter?
 
2006-12-07 08:26:20 AM
Again?
Those bastards!!!!!
As a Yankee in Ozzyland I'm' offended by these nutcases.
I'm related to a fair few of the US seabees that helped the locals build many of the WWII defenses of Australia and I deeply resent a church dictating what is important to the family of a deceased loved one. I'm tempted to say its border line vilification (according to the laws of this great country).
 
2006-12-07 08:55:02 AM
totalsecurity: Australian/Austrian Trifecta in play!

Yeah, I'm mocking the no-nots of geography.


Wouldn't the logical next step be Australasia?
 
2006-12-07 08:57:54 AM
I am OUTRAGED

that a bunch of whiny busibodies think they can tell a church what its policies are. Don't like it? Have your funeral somewhere else.

Besides, it's not like it's a real flag - it has a Union Jack on it. Is sucking the queen's toes really appropriate for a funeral?
 
2006-12-07 09:06:18 AM
As a matter of common courtesy, the church could have granted this reasonable request and spared themselves and the family from this kind of undue attention at a stressful time.

But no...



.
 
2006-12-07 09:10:54 AM
The point is that the family had made arrangements a year ago which were ignored on the day. They're not trying to tell the church its business, they wanted the church to follow through with a prearranged plan.

I personally think it's disrespectful. If someone wants their national flag draped over a coffin, be it Australia's, Armenia's or Black Beard's, where is the problem? This "uniting" church's stance is very much like the Jehovah's Witnesses' take on "allegiance" to a country being the same as worshipping a false idol.

I can't see how pledging allegiance to your country is the same as turning from God. I don't expect to get my religious fulfillment at the expense of my federal government, nor do I expect God to repave my interstate highways.
 
2006-12-07 09:26:03 AM
Too many crosses on the ozzie flag: st george, st andrew, st david, st patrick and st southern.

Probably a little too christian for the church.
 
2006-12-07 09:36:10 AM
Here are people wishing to have the final ceremony conducted in the church where Mr and Mrs Bolton were married some 50 years ago.

So because they "used" the church 50 years ago, the church should just bend over to be used again?
 
2006-12-07 09:40:36 AM
Seems from the article the church itself is okay with doing this, it was the individual pastor (or whatever his title is) in question that didn't want it. I guess this is what happens when your church is the combining of a number of different christian sects, the overall church policies aren't always going to be agreed upon by everyone in the church.

Maybe the individual in question isn't happy with celebrating a part of the deceased history in which he killed people, regardless of the cause in which it was done.
 
2006-12-07 09:41:14 AM
What a bunch of assholes. How are you gonna allow a man to be a member of the congregation for 50 years, then deny him his only dieing wish. If there is a hell, that pastor/minister/whatever is going to it.
 
2006-12-07 10:11:43 AM

A little bit of research would show that what the ministers want to do is either not have a flag, or to have a baptism cloth over the coffin during the church service (ie the religious bit) followed by allowing the Australian flag (or whatever other bit of cloth the dead and/or family want) during the subsequent RSL/Mason/etc services.


The Herald Sun makes Fox News look intellectual...

 
2006-12-07 10:35:55 AM
TheAthiestChaplin - you are wrong. Disestablishmentarians want the church disestablished. I'm against that. So antidisestablishmentarianism it is.
 
2006-12-07 11:09:19 AM
I'm sorry, but why does "what the minister wants" trump what the family and the deceased wants?

Every church I've ever been has had an American flag at the front of the sanctuary. And a Texas flag, but that's because we're Texas and we love us. Anyway, it was my understanding that this was done because the Bible dictates that we follow the law of the land. Seems to me that most Christians are rabidly patriotic, regardless of party affiliation. Is it really that different in Australia?

I can see keeping the church out of the state. But how does denying a flag on a coffin keep the state out of the church? Huh?
 
2006-12-07 12:58:22 PM
Although it is their right for churches to have any rules they want regarding their services, they can be complete jerks about it. My mom's friend worked very hard for a particular Catholic church for years. He raised money, he helped organize youth programs, and he devoted a lot of time to the church and the community.

He died last year after a long battle with brain cancer. He requested to have his funeral there as he was so devoted to that community. He also requested that a contemporary religious Italian song be played, as he was listening to that song while he was sick and it gave him peace of mind and he wanted to do the same for his family.

The family got the music and a pianist to play and even his brother, a soloist, to sing the song. Then the pastor--who wasn't even going to be the one saying the mass--refused to allow the song to be played because it wasn't liturgical. Mind you, this parish has contemporary Christian music on all the time. Frankly, that music stinks out loud, while the Italian song was actually pretty good. Maybe that was why...

Happy ending: The family had previously requested that an old pastor who had been transferred say the mass, and the old pastor snuck in the song.
 
2006-12-07 04:17:20 PM
This is why I just love churches so much!!!

So very, VERY much! Makes me feel all...hugeychurchyshootystabby!

Why is it that church pews smell of dried semen and lost childhood innocence?

/rhetorical question
 
2006-12-08 04:25:16 AM
simpsonfan: They need a patriot guard group like here. Keep people like Phelps away, keep Nazi preachers from taking away flags.

Because Nazis hated flags.


/Nazi is not a general-purpose insult, okay?
 
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