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(Reuters)   Radio host Jerry Klein staged a hoax on the air and suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band. Many xenophobes called in and actually agreed with his statement   (today.reuters.com) divider line 572
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9581 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Dec 2006 at 5:57 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-12-02 09:53:10 PM

I also certainly wish something would be done about alliieviating the misconceived notions held by many ignorant people in their own homelands. Namely, the belief that Jews are half-pig half-human; that any non-believer is equated with cattle to be killed, owned or disposed with; that the Jews orchestrated 9/11; and that Hezbollah and Hamas are purely altruistic faith-based organizations.

That would help,too. Rather than simply harping on our own ignorance, and fear mongering with theirs. It would be nice to spread a few objective facts around. Before all the muslim majority countries are smothered into theocracies by their own extremist's active social programming. I mean hey, we've just narrowly escaped our own Christian extremist coup!

 
2006-12-02 09:55:07 PM
What's with the flood of mouth-breathers? Did Savage just wrap up his show or something?
 
2006-12-02 09:56:07 PM
Unhip1: Namely, the belief that Jews are half-pig half-human Islam causes terrorism; that any non-believer non-Christian/non-Jew is equated with cattle to be killedeternally condemned to Hell, that the JewsMuslims (rather than just a few extremists with delusions of grandeur ) orchestrated 9/11; and that Hezbollah and Hamas the Bush administration is not a purely altruistic faith-based organization.
 
2006-12-02 09:57:27 PM
Cocheeze: The "blame the West" argument can only take you so far. Reasonable responsibility has to be placed on radical muslims at some point. The victim card can't be played forever.

I agree, but we should at the very least quit giving them reasons to mistrust us. If we took away the reason many muslims distrust and dealt with them in ajust manner, much of the funding and support for the radicals would dry up... at the moment people over there see that violence is the only thing that we listen and respond to.
 
2006-12-02 09:58:57 PM
I like when I'm called "PC" and "leftist" in these debates.

It illustrates that I'm arguing with people who are unable to discuss ideas independently of a perceived ideology. It also shows a tendency to get lots of news from talk radio.

They don't argue with you, they argue with imaginary "liberals" that they have created as boogeymen in their minds.
 
2006-12-02 10:02:16 PM
Unhip1: Well said. I don't think there are necessarily many people anywhere in the world who actually believe some of the stuff you talked about, but your larger point is a fantastic one -- wouldn't it be nice if we could sit down at a table and TALK ABOUT these issues with each other in a fashion that would illuminate rather than obfuscate the facts?
 
2006-12-02 10:05:51 PM
Zaphodius


Muslims are upset because Israel and the USA refuse to propose honest and just peace proposals to attempt peace.

If the US would call Israel on some of their worse measures they may look at us as if we might truely want peace. Instead we look the other way when Israel kills a few hndred Palestinians to get to the few that are causing trouble.



Oh for pity's sake. The 'palestinians' have been offered virtually everything they've demanded again and again and again.

They just keep attacking.


Islam is 'upset' because the rest of the world hasn't converted yet. These people will FIND a reason to be 'upset'. It is the nature of the bullsh*t religion. It isn't compatible with the rest of planet earth.

The genocide in Darfur has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel. Anyone in Indonesia who isn't a muslim becomes a target whenever a muslim riot breaks out. That has nothing to do with Israel either. The Taleban have nothing to do with Israel. Chechnyan terrorists have nothing to do with Israel. The Egyption Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Israel. The muslim warlords ruling Somolia have nothing to do with Israel.

In fact, fanatical muslim bigotry, as represented by the ENTIRE nation of Saudi Arabia has been going on long before Israel existed as a modern nation.


You can blame Israel. You can blame 'Bush'. You can blame the British. You can blame America. You can blame anything and everything but at some point, the misery of the vast majority of muslims has to be blamed where the responsibility lies: Islam itslef.

Look at what it does. Everytime a liberal makes excuses for it, mohammed grins from hell.


/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud
 
2006-12-02 10:08:23 PM
HellbentForLeather: Islam is 'upset' because the rest of the world hasn't converted yet. These people will FIND a reason to be 'upset'. It is the nature of the bullsh*t religion. It isn't compatible with the rest of planet earth.

It's not about Islam. It's never been about Islam. It's about socioeconomics and the fact that they become intensely religious is a response to that. You're mistaking a common effect with the cause.
 
2006-12-02 10:17:45 PM
Look at what it does. Everytime a liberal makes excuses for it, mohammed grins from hell.
/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud


23 percenter.
 
2006-12-02 10:21:14 PM
mrexcess

Come the hell on, man. Some jihadis living in caves in Afghanistan are not a "threat to all of mankind" by any measure.


If they had access to an atomic device or a mass-casualty inducing biological weapon on 911, they'd have used it - same for Madrid and London. When asked about the muslims killed on 911 by the attacks, OBL responded that they were glorious martyrs. Hezbollah said the same thing about muslims that died inside Israel as a result of the thousands of rockets fired.

Iran will soon have the bomb and is already threatening Israel with it. If Musharraf is overthrown, president OBL will have access to Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.


This is not paranoid fear-mongering. These people mean to kill us and every single terrorism expert I've read or heard says that a muslim mass-casualty attack upon the west is inevitable. In fact, the right type of muslim biological attack, and under the fight circumstances, could take out a substantial portion of the human race, them included. Will it happen? I don't know but neither do you. So yeah, I WOULD say islam is a threat to all man-kind.

Stick your head in the sand and make excuses for these people if you want. The rest of us consider ourselves to be in a posture of defense.


/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud
 
2006-12-02 10:25:23 PM
Greetings Readers, Friends, and Other Visitors:

The Time Traveler appeared suddenly in my study on New Year's Eve, 2004. He was a stolid, grizzled man in a gray tunic and looked to be in his late-sixties or older. He also appeared to be the veteran of wars or of some terrible accident since he had livid scars on his face and neck and hands, some even visible in his scalp beneath a fuzz of gray hair cropped short in a military cut. One eye was covered by a black eyepatch. Before I could finish dialing 911 he announced in a husky voice that he was a Time Traveler come back to talk to me about the future.

Being a sometimes science-fiction writer but not a fool, I said, "Prove it."

"Do you remember Replay?" he said.

My finger hovered over the final "1" in my dialing. "The 1987 novel?" I said. "By Ken Grimwood?"

The stranger - Time Traveler, psychotic, home invader, whatever he was - nodded.

I hesitated. The novel by Grimwood had won the World Fantasy Award a year or two after my first-novel, Song of Kali, had. Grimwood's book was about a guy who woke up one morning to find himself snapped back decades in his life, from the late 1980's to himself as a college student in 1963, and thus getting the chance to relive - to replay - that life again, only this time acting upon what he'd already learned the hard way. In the book, the character, who was to experience - suffer - several Replays, learned that there were other people from his time who were also Replaying their lives in the past, their bodies younger but their memories intact. I'd greatly enjoyed the book, thought it deserved the award, and had been sad to hear that Grimwood had died . . . when? . . . in 2003.

So, I thought, I might have a grizzled nut case in my study this New Year's Eve, but if he was a reader and a fan of Replay, he was probably just a sci-fi fan grizzled nut case, and therefore probably harmless. Possibly. Maybe.

I kept my finger poised over the final "1" in "911."

"What does that book have to do with you illegally entering my home and study?" I asked.

The stranger smiled ... almost sadly I thought. "You asked me to prove that I'm a Time Traveler," he said softly. "Do you remember how Grimwood's character in Replay went hunting for others in the 1960's who had traveled back in time from the late 1980's?"

I did remember now. I'd thought it clever at the time. The guy in Replay, once he suspected others were also replaying into the past, had taken out personal ads in major city newspapers around the country. The ads were concise. "Do you remember Three Mile Island, Challenger, Watergate, Reaganomics? If so, contact me at . . ."

Before I could say anything else on this New Year's Eve of 2004, a few hours before 2005 began, the stranger said, "Terri Schiavo, Katrina, New Orleans under water, Ninth Ward, Ray Nagin, Superdome, Judge John Roberts, White Sox sweep the Astros in four to win the World Series, Pope Benedict XVI, Scooter Libby."

"Wait, wait!" I said, scrambling for a pen and then scrambling even faster to write. "Ray who? Pope who? Scooter who?"

"You'll recognize it all when you hear it all again," said the stranger. "I'll see you in a year and we'll have our conversation."

"Wait!" I repeated. "What was that middle apart . . . Ray Nugin? Judge who? John Roberts? Who is . . ." But when I looked up he was gone.

"White Sox win the Series?" I muttered into the silence. "Fat chance."

#

I was waiting for him on New Year's Eve 2005. I didn't see him enter. I looked up from the book I was fitfully reading and he was standing in the shadows again. I didn't dial 911 this time, nor demand any more proof. I waved him to the leather wingchair and said, "Would you like something to drink?"

"Scotch," he said. "Single malt if you have it."

I did.

Our conversation ran over two hours, but the following is the gist of it. I'm a novelist by trade. I remember conversations pretty well. (Not as perfectly as Truman Capote was said to be able to recall long conversations word for word, but pretty well.)

The Time Traveler wouldn't tell me what year in the future he was from. Not even the decade or century. But the gray cord trousers and blue-gray wool tunic top he was wearing didn't look very far-future science-fictiony or military, no Star Trekky boots or insignia, just wellworn clothes that looked like something a guy who worked with his hands a lot would wear. Construction maybe.

"I know you can't tell me details about the future because of time travel paradoxes," I began. I hadn't spent a lifetime reading and then writing SF for nothing.

"Oh, bugger time travel paradoxes," said the Time Traveler. "They don't exist. I could tell you anything I want to and it won't change anything. I just choose not to tell you some things."

I frowned at this. "Time travel paradoxes don't exist? But surely if I go back in time and kill my grandfather before he meets my grandmother . . ."

The Time Traveler laughed and sipped his Scotch. "Would you want to kill your grandfather?" he said. "Or anyone else?"

"Well . . .Hitler maybe," I said weakly.

The Traveler smiled, but more ironically this time. "Good luck," he said. "But don't count on succeeding."

I shook my head. "But surely anything you tell me now about the future will change the future," I said.

"I gave you a raft of facts about your future a year ago as my bona fides," said the Time Traveler. "Did it change anything? Did you save New Orleans from drowning?"

"I won $50 betting on the White Sox in October," I admitted.

The Time Traveler only shook his head. "Quod erat demonstrandum," he said softly. "I could tell you that the Mississippi River flows generally south. Would your knowing about it change its course or flow or flooding?"

I thought about this. Finally I said, "Why did you come back? Why do you want to talk to me? What do you want me to do?"

"I came back for my own purposes," said the Time Traveler, looking around my booklined study. "I chose you to talk to because it was . . . convenient. And I don't want you to do a goddamned thing. There's nothing you can do. But relax . . . we're not going to be talking about personal things. Such as, say, the year, day, and hour of your death. I don't even know that sort of trivial information, although I could look it up quickly enough. You can release that white-knuckled grip you have on the edge of your desk."

I tried to relax. "What do you want to talk about?" I said.

"The Century War," said the Time Traveler.

I blinked and tried to remember some history. "You mean the Hundred Year War? Fifteenth Century? Fourteenth? Sometime around there. Between . . . France and England? Henry V? Kenneth Branagh? Or was it . . ."

"I mean the Century War with Islam," interrupted the Time Traveler. "Your future. Everyone's." He was no longer smiling. Without asking, or offering to pour me any, he stood, refilled his Scotch glass, and sat again. He said, "It was important to me to come back to this time early on in the struggle. Even if only to remind myself of how unspeakably blind you all were."

"You mean the War on Terrorism," I said.

"I mean the Long War with Islam," he said. "The Century War. And it's not over yet where I come from. Not close to being over."

"You can't have a war with Islam," I said. "You can't go to war against a religion. Radical Islam, maybe. Jihadism. Some extremists. But not a . . . the . . . religion itself. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are peaceloving people who wish us no harm. I mean . . . I mean . . . the very word 'Islam' means 'Peace.'"

"So you kept telling yourselves," said the Time Traveler. His voice was very low but there was a strange and almost frightening edge to it. "But the 'peace' in 'Islam' means 'Submission.' You'll find that out soon enough"

Great, I was thinking. Of all the time travelers in all the gin joints in all the world, I get this racist, xenophobic, right-wing asshole.

"After Nine-eleven, we're fighting terrorism," I began, "not . . ."

He waved me into silence.

"You were a philosophy major or minor at that podunk little college you went to long ago," said the Time Traveler. "Do you remember what Category Error is?"

It rang a bell. But I was too irritated at hearing my alma mater being called a "podunk little college" to be able to concentrate fully.

"I'll tell you what it is," said the Time Traveler. "In philosophy and formal logic, and it has its equivalents in science and business management, Category Error is the term for having stated or defined a problem so poorly that it becomes impossible to solve that problem, through dialectic or any other means."

I waited. Finally I said firmly, "You can't go to war with a religion. Or, I mean . . . sure, you could . . . the Crusades and all that . . . but it would be wrong."

The Time Traveler sipped his Scotch and looked at me. He said, "Let me give you an analogy . . ."

God, I hated and distrusted analogies. I said nothing.

"Let's imagine," said the Time Traveler, "that on December eighth, Nineteen forty-one, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt spoke before a joint session of Congress and asked them to declare war on aviation."

"That's absurd," I said.

"Is it?" asked the Time Traveler. "The American battleships, cruisers, harbor installations, Army barracks, and airfields at Pearl Harbor and elsewhere in Hawaii were all struck by Japanese aircraft. Imagine if the next day Roosevelt had declared war on aviation . . . threatening to wipe it out wherever we found it. Committing all the resources of the United States of America to defeating aviation, so help us God."

"That's just stupid," I said. If I'd ever been afraid of this Time Traveler, I wasn't now. He was obviously a mental defective."The planes, the Japanese planes," I said, "were just a method of attack . . . a means . . . it wasn't aviation that attacked us at Pearl Harbor, but the Empire of Japan. We declared war on Japan and a few days later its ally, Germany, lived up to its treaty with the Japanese and declared war on us. If we'd declared war on aviation, on goddamned airplanes rather than the empire and ideology that launched them, we'd never have . . ."

I stopped. What had he called it? Category Error. Making the problem unsolvable through your inability - or fear - of defining it correctly.

The Time Traveler was smiling at me from the shadows. It was a small, thin, cold smile - holding no humor in it, I was sure -- but still a smile of sorts. It seemed more sad than gloating as my sudden silence stretched on.

"What do you know about Syracuse?" he asked suddenly.

I blinked again. "Syracuse, New York?" I said at last.

He shook his head slowly. "Thucydides' Syracuse," he said softly. "Syracuse circa 415 B.C. The Syracuse Athens invaded."

"It was . . . part of the Peloponnesian War," I ventured.

He waited for more but I had no more to give. I loved history, but let's admit it . . . that was ancient history. Still, I felt that I should have been able to tell him,or at least remember, why Syracuse was important in the Peloponnesian War or why they fought there or who fought exactly or who had won or . . . something. I hated feeling like a dull student around this scarred old man.

"The war between Athens and its allies and Sparta and its allies - a war for nothing less than hegemony over the entire known world at that time - began in 431 B.C.," said the Time Traveler. "After seventeen years of almost constant fighting, with no clear or permanent advantage for either side, Athens - under the leadership of Alcibiades at the time - decided to widen the war by conquering Sicily, the 'Great Greece' they called it, an area full of colonies and the key to maritime commerce at the time the way the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf is today."

I hate being lectured to at the best of times, but something about the tone and timber of the Time Traveler's voice - soft, deep, rasping, perhaps thickened a bit by the whiskey - made this sound more like a story being told around a campfire. Or perhaps a bit like one of Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon stories on "Prairie Home Companion." I settled deeper into my chair and listened.

"Syracuse wasn't a direct enemy of the Athenians," continued the Time Traveler, "but it was quarreling with a local Athenian colony and the democracy of Athens used that as an excuse to launch a major expedition against it. It was a big deal - Athens sent 136 triremes, the best fighting ships in the world then - and landed 5,000 soldiers right under the city's walls.

"The Athenians had enjoyed so much military success in recent years, including their invasion of Melos, that Thucydides wrote - So thoroughly had the present prosperity persuaded the Athenians that nothing could withstand them, and that they could achieve what was possible and what was impracticable alike, with means ample or inadequate it mattered not. The reason for this was their general extraordinary success, which made them confuse their strengths with their hopes."

"Oh, hell," I said, "this is going to be a lecture about Iraq, isn't it? Look . . . I voted for John Kerry last year and . . ."

"Listen to me," the Time Traveler said softly. It was not a request. There was steel in that soft, rasping voice. "Nicias, the Athenian general who ended up leading the invasion, warned against it in 415 B.C. He said - 'We must not disguise from ourselves that we go to found a city among strangers and enemies, and that he who undertakes such an enterprise should be prepared to become master of the country the first day he lands, or failing in this to find everything hostile to him'. Nicias, along with the Athenian poet and general Demosthenes, would see their armies destroyed at Syracuse and then they would both be captured and put to death by the Syracusans. Sparta won big in that two-year debacle for Athens. The war went on for seven more years, but Athens never recovered from that overreaching at Syracuse, and in the end . . . Sparta destroyed it. Conquered the Athenian empire and its allies, destroyed Athens' democracy, ruined the entire balance of power and Greek hegemony over the known world at the time . . . ruined everything. All because of a miscalculation about Syracuse."

I sighed. I was sick of Iraq. Everyone was sick of Iraq on New Years Eve, 2005, both Bush supporters and Bush haters. It was just an ugly mess. "They just had an election," I said. "The Iraqi people. They dipped their fingers in purple ink and . . ."

"Yes yes," interrupted the Time Traveler as if recalling something further back in time, and much less important, than Athens versus Syracuse. "The free elections. Purple fingers. Democracy in the Mid-East. The Palestinians are voting as well. You will see in the coming year what will become of all that."

The Time Traveler drank some Scotch, closed his eyes for a second, and said, "Sun Tzu writes - The side that knows when to fight and when not to will take the victory. There are roadways not to be traveled, armies not to be attacked, walled cities not to be assaulted."

"All right, goddammit," I said irritably. "Your point's made. So we shouldn't have invaded Iraq in this . . . what did you call it? This Long War with Islam, this Century War. We're all beginning to realize that here by the end of 2005."

The Time Traveler shook his head. "You've understood nothing I've said. Nothing. Athens failed in Syracuse - and doomed their democracy - not because they fought in the wrong place and at the wrong time, but because they weren't ruthless enough. They had grown soft since their slaughter of every combat-age man and boy on the island of Melos, the enslavement of every woman and girl there. The democratic Athenians, in regards to Syracuse, thought that once engaged they could win without absolute commitment to winning, claim victory without being as ruthless and merciless as their Spartan and Syracusan enemies. The Athenians, once defeat loomed, turned against their own generals and political leaders - and their official soothsayers. If General Nicias or Demosthenes had survived their captivity and returned home, the people who sent them off with parades and strewn flower petals in their path would have ripped them limb from limb. They blamed their own leaders like a sun-maddened dog ripping and chewing at its own belly."

I thought about this. I had no idea what the hell he was saying or how it related to the future.

"You came back in time to lecture me about Thucydides?" I said. "Athens? Syracuse? Sun-Tzu? No offense, Mr. Time Traveler, but who gives a damn?"

The Time Traveler rose so quickly that I flinched back in my chair, but he only refilled his Scotch. This time he refilled my glass as well. "You probably should give a damn" he said softly. " In 2006, you'll be ripping and tearing at yourselves so fiercely that your nation - the only one on Earth actually fighting against resurgent caliphate Islam in this long struggle over the very future of civilization - will become so preoccupied with criticizing yourselves and trying to gain short-term political advantage, that you'll all forget that there's actually a war for your survival going on. Twenty-five years from now, every man or woman in America who wishes to vote will be required to read Thucydides on this matter. And others as well. And there are tests. If you don't know some history, you don't vote . . . much less run for office. America's vacation from knowing history ends very soon now . . . for you, I mean. And for those few others left alive in the world who are allowed to vote."

"You're shiatting me," I said.

"I am shiatting you not," said the Time Traveler.

"Those few others left alive who are allowed to vote?" I said, the words just now striking me like hardthrown stones. "What the hell are you talking about? Has our government taken away all our civil liberties in this awful future of yours?"

He laughed then and this time it was a deep, hearty, truly amused laugh. "Oh, yes," he said when the laughter abated a bit. He actually wiped away tears from his one good eye. "I had almost forgotten about your fears of your, our . . . civil liberties . . . being abridged by our own government back in these last stupidity-allowed years of 2005 and 2006 and 2007 . Where exactly do you see this repression coming from?"

"Well . . ." I said. I hate it when I start a sentence with 'well,' especially in an argument. "Well, the Patriot Act. Bush authorizing spying on Americans . . . international phonecalls and such. Uh . . . I think mosques in the States are under FBI surveillance. I mean, they want to look up what library books we're reading, for God's sake. Big Brother. 1984. You know."

The Time Traveler laughed again, but with more edge this time. "Yes, I know," he said. "We all know . . . up there in the future which some of you will survive to see as free people. Civil liberties. In 2006 you still fear yourselves and your own institutions first, out of old habit. A not unworthy - if fatally misguided and terminally masochistic - paranoia. I will tell you right now, and this is not a prediction but a history lesson, some of your grandchildren will live in dhimmitude."

"Zimmi . . . what?" I said.

He spelled it out. What had sounded like a 'z' was the 'dh.' I'd never heard the word and I told him so.

"Then get off your ass and Google it," said the Time Traveler, his one working eye glinting with something like fury. "Dhimmitude. You can also look up the word dhimmi, because that's what two of your three grandchildren will be called. Dhimmis. Dhimmitude is the system of separate and subordinate laws and rules they will live under. Look up the word sharia while you're Googling dhimmi, because that is the only law they will answer to as dhimmis, the only justice they can hope for . . . they and tens and hundreds of millions more now who are worried in your time about invisible abridgements of their 'civil liberties' by their 'oppressive' American and European democratically elected governments."

He audibly sneered this last part. I wondered now if the fury I sensed in him was a result of his madness, or if the reverse were true.

"Where will my grandchildren suffer this dhimmitude?" I asked. My mouth was suddenly so dry I could barely speak.

"Eurabia," said the Time Traveler.

"There's no such place," I said.

He gave me his one-eyed stare. My stomach suddenly lurched and I wished I'd drunk no Scotch. "Words," I said.

The Time Traveler raised one scar-slashed eyebrow.

"Last year you gave me words about 2005," I said. "The kind of words Ken Grimwood's replayers in time would have put in the newspaper to find each other. Give me more now. Or, better yet, just farking tell me what you're talking about. You said it wouldn't matter. You said that my knowing won't change anything, any more than I can change the direction the Mississippi is flowing . So tell me, God damn it!"

He began by giving me words. Even while I was scribbling them down, I was thinking of reading I'd been doing recently about the joy with which the Victorian Englishmen and 19th Century Europeans and Americans greeted the arrival of the 20th Century. The toasts, especially among the intellectual elite, on New Year's Eve 1899 had been about the coming glories of technology liberating them, of the imminent Second Enlightenment in human understanding, of the certainty of a just one-world government, of the end of war for all time.

Instead, what words would a time traveler or poor Replay victim put in his London Times or Berliner Zeitung or New York Times on January 1, 1900, to find his fellow travelers displaced in time? Auschwitz, I was sure, and Hiroshima and Trinity Site and Holocaust and Hitler and Stalin and . . .

The clock in my study chimed midnight.

Jesus God. Did I want to hear such words about 2006 and the rest of the 21st Century from the Time Traveler?

"Ahmadenijad," he said softly. "Natanz. Arak. Bushehr. Ishafan. Bonab. Ramsar."

"Those words don't mean a damned thing to me," I said as I scribbled them down phonetically. "Where are they? What are they?"

"You'll know soon enough," said the Time Traveler.

"Are you talking about . . . what? . . . the next fifteen or twenty years?" I said.

"I'm talking about the next fifteen or twenty months from your now," he said softly. "Do you want more words?"

I didn't. But I couldn't speak just then.

"General Seyed Reza Pardis," intoned the Time Traveler. "Shehab-one, Shehab-two, Shehab-three. Tel Aviv. Baghdad International Airport, Al Salem U.S. airbase in Kuwait, Camp Dawhah U.S. Army base in Kuwait, al Seeb U.S. airbase in Oman, al Udeid U.S. Army and Air Force base in Qatar. Haifa. Beir-Shiva. Dimona."

"Oh, fark," I said. "Oh, Jesus." I had no clue as to who or what Shehab One, Two, or Three might be, but the context and litany alone made me want to throw up.

"This is just the beginning," said the Time Traveler.

"Wasn't the beginning on September 11, 2001?" I managed through numb lips.

The one-eyed scarred man shook his head. "Historians in my time know that it began on June 5, 1968," he said. "But it hasn't really begun for you yet. For any of you."

I thought - What on earth happened on the fifth of June, 1968? I'm old enough to remember. I was in college then. Working that summer and . . . Kennedy. Robert F. Kennedy's assassination. "Now on to Chicago and the nomination!" Sirhan Sirhan. Was the Time Traveler trying to give me some kind of half-assed Oliver-Stone-JFK-movie garbled up conspiracy theory?

"What . . ." I began.

"Galveston," interrupted the Time Traveler. "The Space Needle. Bank of America Plaza in Dallas. Renaissance Tower in Dallas. Bank One Center in Dallas. The Indianapolis 500 - one hour and twenty-three minutes into the race. The Bell South Building in Atlanta. The TransAmerica Pyramid in San Francisco . . ."

"Stop," I said. "Just stop."

"The Golden Gate Bridge," persisted the Time Traveler. "The Guggenheim in Bilbao. The New Reichstag in Berlin. Albert Hall. Saint Paul's Cathedral . . ."

"Shut the fark up!" I shouted. "All these places can't disappear in the rest of this century, your goddamned Century War or not! I don't believe it."

"I didn't say in the rest of your century," said the Time Traveler, his torn voice almost a whisper now. "I'm talking about your next fifteen years. And I've barely begun."

"You're nuts," I said. "You're not from the future. You escaped from some asylum."

The Time Traveler nodded. "That's more true than you know," he said. "I come from a place and time where your grandchildren and hundreds of millions of other dhimmi are compelled to write 'pbuh' after the Prophet's name. They wear gold crosses and gold Stars of David sewn onto their clothing. The Nazis didn't invent the wearing of the Star of David . . . the marking and setting apart of the Jews in society. Muslims did that centuries ago in they lands they conquered, European and otherwise. They will refine it and update it, not toward the more merciful, in the lands they occupy through the decades ahead of you."

"You're crazy," I cried, standing. My hands were balled into fists. "Islam is a religion . . . a religion of peace . . . not our enemy. We can't be at war with a religion. That's obscene."

"Have you read the Qur'an and learned your Sunnah?" asked the Time Traveler. "It would behoove you to do so. Dhimmi means 'protection.' And your children and grandchildren will be protected . . . like cattle."

"To hell with you," I said.

"Your dhimmi poll tax will be called jizya," said the Time Traveler. His voice suddenly sounded very weary."Your land tax for being an infidel, even for fellow People of the Book - Christians and Jews - will be called kharaz. Both of these taxes will be in addition to your mandatory alms - the zakat. The punishment for failure to pay, or for paying late, a punishment meted out by your local qadi, religious judge, is death by stoning or beheading."

I folded my arms and looked away from the Time Traveler.

"Under sharia - which will be the universal law of Eurabia," persisted the Time Traveler, "the value of a dhimmi's life, the value of your grandchildren, is one half the value of a Muslim's life. Jews and Christians are worth one-third of a Muslim. Indian Parsees are worth one-fifteenth. In a court of the Eurabian Caliphate or the Global Khalifate, if a Muslim murders a dhimmi, any infidel, he must pay a blood money fine not to exceed one thousand euros. No Muslim will ever be jailed or sentenced to death for the murder of any dhimmi or any number of dhimmis. If the murders were done under the auspices of Universal Compulsive Jihad, which will be sanctioned by sharia as of 2019 Common Era, all blood money fines are waived."

"Go away," I said. "Go back to wherever you came from."

"I come from here," said the Time Traveler. "From not so far from here."

"Bullshiat," I said.

"Your enemies have gathered and struck and continue to strike and you, the innocents of 2006 and beyond, fight among yourselves, chew and rip at your own bellies, blame your brothers and yourselves and your institutions of the Enlightenment - law, tolerance, science, democracy - even while your enemies grow stronger."

"How are we supposed to know who our enemies are?" I turned and growled at him. "The world is a complex place. Morality is a complex thing."

"Your enemy is he who will give his life to kill you," said the Time Traveler. "Your enemies are they that wish you and your children and your grandchildren dead and who are willing to sacrifice themselves, or support those fanatics who will sacrifice themselves, to see you and your institutions destroyed. You haven't figured that out yet - the majority of you fat, sleeping, smug, infinitely stupid Americans and Europeans."

He stood and set the Scotch glass back in its place on my sideboard. "How, we wonder in my time," he said softly, "can you ignore the better part of a billion people who say aloud that they are willing to kill your children . . . or condone and celebrate the killing of them? And ignore them as they act on what they say? We do not understand you."

I still had not turned to face him, but was looking over my shoulder at him.

"The world, as it turns out," continued the Time Traveler, "is not nearly so complex a place as your liberal and gentle minds sought to make it."

I did not respond.

"Thucydides taught us more than twenty-four hundred years ago - counting back from your time - that all men's behavior is guided by phobos, kerdos, and doxa," said the Time Traveler. "Fear, self-interest, and honor."

I pretended I did not hear.

"Plato saw human behavior as a chariot pulled by precisely those three powerful and headstrong horses, first tugged this way, then pulled that way," continued the Time Traveler. "Phobos, kerdos, doxa. Fear, self-interest, honor. Which of these guides the chariot of your nation and your allies in Europe and your surprisingly fragile civilization now, O Man of 2006?"

I stared at the bookcase instead of the man and willed him gone, wishing him away like a sleepy boy willing away the boogeyman under his bed.

"Which combination of those three traits -- phobos, kerdos, doxa -- will save or doom your world?" asked the Time Traveler. "Which might bring you back from this vacation from history - from history's responsibilities and history's burdens - that you have all so generously gifted yourselves with? You peaceloving Europeans. You civil-liberties loving Americans? You Athenian invertebrates with your love of your own exalted sensibilities and your willingness to enter into a global war for civilizational survival even while you are too timid, too fearful . . . too decent . . . to match the ruthlessness of your enemies."

I closed my eyes but that did not stop his voice.

"At least understand that such decency goes away quickly when you are burying your children and your grandchildren," rasped the Time Traveler. "Or watching them suffer in slavery. Ruthlessness deferred against totalitarian aggression only makes the later need for ruthlessness more terrible. Thousands of years of history and war should have taught you that. Did you fools learn nothing from living through the charnel house that was the 20th Century?"

I'd had enough. I opened my eyes, turned, reached into the top left drawer of my desk, and pulled out the .38 revolver that I had owned for twenty-three years and fired only twice, at firing ranges, shortly after it was given to me as a gift.

I aimed it at the Time Traveler. "Get out," I said.

He showed no reaction. "Do you want more than words?" he asked softly. "I will give you more than words. I give you eight million Jews dead in Israel - incinerated - and many more dead Jews in Eurabia an

(blah blah blah)
 
2006-12-02 10:25:42 PM
czarangelus

It's not about Islam. It's never been about Islam. It's about socioeconomics and the fact that they become intensely religious is a response to that. You're mistaking a common effect with the cause.


That is the diametrically opposed opposite of the truth.

Unbelievable.


/suck it libs
//Total Fark stud
 
2006-12-02 10:26:13 PM
"Of course, the odds against one sharia court in London sentencing both your grandsons to death for crimes committed as far apart as London and Quebec City is too much of a coincidence to believe in," continued the Time Traveler. "As is the fact that they would both be introduced to Muslim girls, without knowing they were Muslim, and go on a single dinner date with them at the same time, in cities so far apart. And Thomas was married. I know he thought he was having a business dinner with a client."

"What . . ." I began, my arm holding the pistol shaking as if palsied.

The Time Traveler laughed a final time. "All of your grandsons' names were on lists. You wrote something . . . will soon write something . . . that will put your name, and all your descendents' names, on their list. Including your only surviving grandson."

I opened my mouth but did not speak.

"According to their own writings, which we all know well in my day," continued the Time Traveler, " 'Hadith Malik 511:1588 The last statement that Muhammad made was: "O Lord, perish the Jews and Christians. They made churches of the graves of their prophets. There shall be no two faiths in Arabia.' And there are not. All infidels - Christians, Jews, secularists -- have been executed, converted, or driven out. Israel is cinders. Eurabia and the New Khalifate is growing, absorbing what was left of the old, weak cultures there that once dreamt of a European Union. The Century War is not near over. Two of your three grandsons are now dead. Your remaining grandson still fights, as does one of your surviving granddaughters. Two of your three living granddaughters now live under sharia within the aegis of New Khalifate. They are women of the veil."

I lowered the pistol.

" Enjoy these last days and months and years of your slumber, Grandfather," said the scarred old man. "Your wake-up call is coming soon."

The Time Traveler said three last words and was gone.

I put the pistol away - realizing too late that it had never been loaded - and sat down to write this. I could not. I waited these three months to try again.

Oh, Lord, I wish that some person on business from Porlock would wake me from this dream.

It was not the horrors of his revelations about my grandchildren that had shaken me the most deeply, shaken me to the core of my core, but rather the the Time Traveler's last three words. Three words that any Replayer or time traveler visiting here from a century or more from now would react to first and most emotionally - three words I will not share here in this piece nor ever plan to share, at least until everyone on Earth knows them - three words that will keep me awake nights for months and years to come.

Three words.
 
2006-12-02 10:27:33 PM
2006-12-02 10:25:42 PM HellbentForLeather

That is the diametrically opposed opposite of the truth.


Does that opinion come from the Department of Redundancy Department?
 
2006-12-02 10:36:35 PM
Hello,

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I will take whatever model you have in stock, as long as its received certification for being safe on carbon based life forms.

In terms of payment: I dont have any Galactic Credits left. Payment can be made in platinum gold or 2003 currency upon safe delivery of unit.

Please transport unit in either a brown paper bag or box to below coordinates on Monday July 28th at (exactly 3:00pm) Eastern Standard Time on the dot. A few minutes prior will be ok, but it cannot be after. If you miss this timeframe please email me.

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Although those coordinates are a secure guarded area, these channels through email are never secure. Unfortunately it is the only form of communication I have right now.

After unit has been sent please email me at: inf­o[nospam-﹫-backwards]mar­gorp­gnidnuf­la­r­edef*com with payment instructions. Do not reply directly back to this email.

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anticipationsltakt
w
ivadwrdozu
 
2006-12-02 10:36:40 PM
Three words.

"Sincerly, Dan Simmons"
 
2006-12-02 10:39:58 PM
HellbentForLeather
If they had access to an atomic device or a mass-casualty inducing biological weapon on 911, they'd have used it - same for Madrid and London.

Perhaps so, if they could have successfully smuggled it here. But yet and still, this falls far short of your "threat to all of mankind" bit. Even if an entire city was destroyed in a nuclear blast (which would require more sophisticated nuclear weapon than any terrorist is going to get ahold of anytime soon to begin with), it would not come close to approaching that level of threat.

Iran will soon have the bomb and is already threatening Israel with it.

No they aren't. Iran hasn't once threatened to nuke or attack Israel.

If Musharraf is overthrown, president OBL will have access to Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

That is the first sensible point I've seen you make so far. And yes, the unstable political situation in Pakistan needs a lot more focus than it is presently receiving (although arguably, focus from the people running our government right now would not be desirable).

This is not paranoid fear-mongering.

Yes it is. Terrorism is not a "threat to mankind", it isn't even a dire threat to the United States. Militarily speaking, these people have no power whatsoever. They can let off a bomb here and there, or hijack a plane, and that's really about it. If you really want to worry about something, consider the nuclear arsenals still held by Russia and China. The threat to the US posed by those nations is far greater than any posed by Al Qaeda and their ilk.

These people mean to kill us and every single terrorism expert I've read or heard says that a muslim mass-casualty attack upon the west is inevitable.

I would agree, another attack by Al Qaeda (as differentiated from "Muslims") is extremely likely. Will it destroy, or even risk the destruction, of our nation, let alone mankind itself? No...not even close.

In fact, the right type of muslim biological attack, and under the fight circumstances, could take out a substantial portion of the human race, them included.

Biological weapons needn't be held by Muslims to be dangerous. Muslim nations, including Iran, have had biological and chemical weapons for decades. As near as we can tell, they've not only not used them but not proliferated them, which is just sensible self-preservation, not only because of the sort of retaliation that would ensue but because these nations generally have terrorism problems of their own to worry about.

Will it happen?

So yeah, I WOULD say islam is a threat to all man-kind.


A couple of problems with that claim: firstly, Islam isn't the threat. A few adherents of Islam might be, but Islam itself is a religion of more than 1.3 billion adherents, the vast majority of which are peaceful people. So that's just an incorrect statement on the face of it.

Secondly, by your own logic, Al Qaeda is no more or less of a threat to "all of mankind" than are Aum Shinrikyo, arguably even less so because the latter has actually managed to create and employ chemical weapons. Nobody's arguing that we ought not to take both seriously, but calling either one a "threat to mankind" is an absurd exaggeration.

Stick your head in the sand and make excuses for these people if you want.

You haven't pointed out one fact that I'm ignoring, or exampled one excuse that I'm making...because I'm doing neither thing. I don't make any excuses for Al Qaeda, they're terrorist scumbags and the sooner we destroy their organization the better. But I don't like to see an entire religion of people made to take the blame for a few terrorists, which is what you're doing. And I don't like to see comparatively minor threats exaggerated to the degree that Al Qaeda is by some on the right for political purposes at the expense of our rights and our attention to more serious threats to our peace and safety.
 
2006-12-02 10:41:04 PM
Zaphodius

Or mutilating their daughters' genitalia

That isn't a Muslim practice, its a regional social custom. Its done out of ignorance, not because its mandated by Islam. A lot of Christians and Animists do it too.
 
2006-12-02 10:46:21 PM
Lets just air drop a bunch of nukes right into the middle east. No fancy detonation codes or detonaters needed, just one click and boom. The likely hood of one making it back to the civilized world would be really small because everyone in the region would use them on other muslims (Shiites vs Sunni, the nucular show down.)....Think of the ratings for Fox News on that one. Of course, Israel might have a problem with that, but whatever. After its all said and done, the US can set up oil rigs all over the what will be called "Middle Eastern Radioactive Wasteland"
What do you think of my idea?......but you're right, the xenophobia is out of hand.
 
2006-12-02 10:48:08 PM
mugato
Was waiting for that.
Thread over.
 
2006-12-02 10:49:39 PM
I'm not afraid of Islam or terrorists. Some of you people need to learn about real risk vs. scary-made-up-risk.
 
2006-12-02 10:52:11 PM
Verm

That story was HellbentForLeather approved.

If I were you, I would change my handle to Jules Verm...


/SUCK IT libs
//Total Fark stud
 
2006-12-02 11:02:24 PM
I'm not afraid of Islam or terrorists. Some of you people need to learn about real risk vs. scary-made-up-risk.

I feel the same way about "Climate Change". Go figure.
 
2006-12-02 11:05:25 PM
HellbentForLeather
Total Fark stud

Uh huh.
 
2006-12-02 11:08:29 PM
Cocheeze
I feel the same way about "Climate Change".

Makes sense, misinformed on one issue, likely misinformed on many issues. The problem isn't the availability of information or lack of it, it's that your method of determining truth from exaggeration and fact from opinion, well, sucks.
 
2006-12-02 11:08:57 PM
MeanJean: That isn't a Muslim practice, its a regional social custom. Its done out of ignorance, not because its mandated by Islam. A lot of Christians and Animists do it too.

not my quote...
 
2006-12-02 11:09:05 PM
SUCK IT

Never happened. Not gonna happen.

Total Fark stud

What a loser.
 
2006-12-02 11:15:52 PM
Tatsuma: There is a threat coming from a certain (albeit generally small) segment of the Muslim population worldwide. There were no attacks of Jews on Germany yet there are attacks of Muslims on America...

Jews own the media, money, lying, etc. albeit from a small segment of the Jews. They've gotta pay (no pun intended! tee-hee).

/See how we can both say dumb things?
 
2006-12-02 11:25:13 PM
Makes sense, misinformed on one issue, likely misinformed on many issues. The problem isn't the availability of information or lack of it, it's that your method of determining truth from exaggeration and fact from opinion, well, sucks.

Ditto for you. We each have our boogeyman. History will be the judge who's right, not you or me.
 
2006-12-02 11:30:22 PM
SchlingFo: And people say that what happened in a certain place 60 years ago could never happen here.

Yeah.


This was said way up top, but it's something I find amusing when I hear it...the sad fact is that it did happen here. The events that led to the holocaust actually started in the US, a lovely little movement called Eugenics. The simple fact is that humanity, as a whole, is generally easy to herd into certain directions. Fear in particular is one of the most effective controlling factors available to us. People do things when they are fearful that defy logic when they are calm, and it's fairly easy to control the actions of your fellows if you know how.

Remember September 12, 2001? People had just seen the WTC Attack, they were feeling vulnerable, upset, and scared. How many days did it take for legislation to be proposed after the attacks that radically changed certain aspects of daily life and the government? Perfect example, one of the reasons so many people protest now in hindsight what they supported.

Think about Pre-WWII US now, or try to, and take a look at this site...you may find it somewhat alarming exactly how easy it was to incite hatred against anyone who was Jewish.

http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/branch.pl
 
2006-12-02 11:33:17 PM
2006-12-02 11:25:13 PM Cocheeze
Ditto for you. We each have our boogeyman.


Kinda sad that your's is science.
 
2006-12-02 11:33:54 PM
Will_Tweak_For_Meth: BTW, comparing anyone who hasn't committed genocide to Hitler takes away the power of calling someone trully evil Hitler. People like Hussein, Pal Mal, Stalin, and Mao deserve it. George Bush does not, he still has to earn the right to be called evil.

O RLY?
 
2006-12-02 11:37:59 PM
flaEsq, "after the fact" is quite a stretch considering he was still on the air when he called bullshiat on the whole thing. Also considering his Jewish name and accurate comparisons to the Holocaust, I'm inclined to believe him. I have yet to meet a pro-Holocaust Jew.

And I'm so fed up with this airport bullshiat, I say we call off all security and give the pilots guns. So once every few years a plane might go down, but it would be worth it not to have X-rays peeping through our clothes and not being able to drink water and stupid ass security checks that don't actually make anyone more secure. fark it, after 9/11, after the Richard "Shooey" Reid, let'em try. After getting their asses kicked a few times, and that one time the would-be terrorists get thrown out of the plane at 35,000 feet, farking with planes won't be so much fun any more and they'll move on to other stuff, like working at Wendy's and spitting in your food, or "suiciding" themselves at Tupperware parties. You know, fun stuff.
 
2006-12-02 11:46:20 PM
Verm: Three words.

Trampoline wastebasket doorjamb?
Basketball pillow hotdog?
Asphalt rodeo lightbulb?

Come on, tell me!
 
2006-12-02 11:46:54 PM
The only people who need to be identified, marked, marginalized and ultimately put into large prisons are REPUBLICANS and all BUSH supporters.
 
2006-12-02 11:51:19 PM
Oh, and Tatsuma...
yer an idiot.
 
2006-12-03 12:02:18 AM
JerkyMeat: Oh, and Tatsuma...
yer an idiot.


What'd he say?
 
2006-12-03 12:08:38 AM
Why do you anti-crescent-shaped-tatoo-or-distinctive-armband-on-all-Muslims crowd hate America?
 
2006-12-03 12:20:57 AM
2006-12-02 11:46:54 PM JerkyMeat
The only people who need to be identified, marked, marginalized and ultimately put into large prisons are REPUBLICANS and all BUSH supporters.

So by that logic and since the GOP is still in power, you will submit to your being put in prison, marked, etc. ?
If you willing to disregard US law for them, you should have no problem for them doing it you right?

/So the way is see is thirthy odd percent would identifiy mulsims her in the US. And about 33% would identifiy those who voted GWB in. Is there really a difference in who is wrong?
//If a muslim support Sharia then they are evil because therein lies death/servitude for all non muslims.
///A Militant Agnostic Pagan
 
2006-12-03 12:28:07 AM
Ya, like we can't tell them from the rest of us with their Hijab and Berkas and that God awful smell.
 
2006-12-03 12:41:46 AM
Howie_Feltersnatch - O RLY?

A bit unclear on the concept of genocide, I see. Whatever, a sense of proportion is overrated anyway, right?
 
2006-12-03 12:45:25 AM
2006-12-02 08:15:26 PM marsupial


I have a question: Considering all the inter-religious strife and conflict in the Middle East, how have the Druze managed to keep from being wiped out of by one or all the the other religions? I mean, I don't think there are enough of them out there to start a softball league.

We followed our Lawyers advice and never put anything in writing

/and its golf not baseball
 
2006-12-03 01:08:24 AM
mrexcess; Except that Islam is not a genuine and self-declared threat to our security, nor are its followers inherently. Some people who are Muslim are that, but so also are some Christians, some Jews, some atheists, and some practitioners of Voodoo. Punishing all Muslims for the actions of a few is bigotry, plain and simple. Making them required to self-identify as the subjects of such bigotry is a particularly dangerous, disgusting, and yes, Hitlerian expression of that impulse.

I see what you did here, mrexcess. First of all, you lumped me in with those who support armbands for Muslims...with no evidence whatsoever. In fact, I agree with you that it's Hitlerian and repulsive. I was expressing surprise that people are, well...surprised by this.

Furthermore, you tarred me with the brush of bigotry for supposedly wanting to punish all Muslims for the crimes of the few. In fact, I wrote "I am confident that the vast majority of Muslims just want to get along with creating a better life for themselves and their families, and aren't out to jihad the world. However, they are about as powerful a voice in Islam these days as the average person was in 1930's Germany. And like 1930's Germany, modern day Islam is being hijacked by its most extreme elements in an overt and self-acknowledged plan to "take over the world", with force if needed."

OTOH, I disagree with your claim that radical Islam does not constitute "a genuine and self-declared threat to our security". First of all, radical Islam has money and is spending it in efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. That same money is supporting the radicalization of Islam everywhere from the Middle East to Europe to Asia and America. The President of Iran financing Shiite extremism and is calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map". Al Qaeda does the same for Sunnis, seeking to establish Islamist states throughout the world, overthrow 'un-Islamic regimes', and reestablish Jerusalem as a Muslim city.

But do Muslim leaders in America denounce violence and urge their brothers to be model citizens? No. Actually, yes they do. You just don't listen.

As the old saying goes, their actions speak so loudly I can't hear what they're saying. Yes, some say the right things, but too many others wear shiatty smelling robes and play "I'm a terrorist" games at the airport...then gather their political pals to protest in Washington DC. Bullshiat.
 
2006-12-03 01:18:52 AM
Muslims have never hurt anyone. Ever. Nor have they ever tried. Ever. And they have never suggested that in Muslim countries that Christians or Jews should ever wear special identification. Ever. Really ever. Trust me :-)

They are completely innocent and all you white people are racist murderer bastard violent child-murdering theatre-full-of-children exploding assh*les.

Um.

Yeah.

Ask any liberal.

(really. Ask anyone. :-)
 
2006-12-03 01:27:22 AM
JerkyMeat seems to be an apt description of your brain.
 
2006-12-03 01:36:50 AM
Notalking_justhead: The extremists represent a fringe minority, who get a lot of press because they commit terrible acts. What you don't see is the rest of the religion, who are completley at ease with our beliefs and way of life.

Why don't we ever see the rest of the religion, then? All I see are the extremists and those taking up for the extremists. Where are the muslims speaking out en masse against the "terrible acts?"
 
2006-12-03 01:37:32 AM
Kike, itz coming...again.
 
2006-12-03 01:40:30 AM
Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: I'm not afraid of Islam or terrorists. Some of you people need to learn about real risk vs. scary-made-up-risk.

O RLY?

www.theage.com.au
 
2006-12-03 01:40:47 AM
"a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington."

o rly?

Maybe some do? (pops, probably) I think it's inevitable that some American Muslims support Al Quaeda (I mean, there are scientologists in this world, too), but those that do are greatly outnumbered by the sane, normal Muslims who've done nothing to me and are generally interesting and nice people to be around.
 
2006-12-03 01:41:22 AM
I think Islam has gotten a bad rap. It's a perfectly innocent religion, it needs a new ad campaign to win over the West. Maybe "Buddy Mohammed" or a catchy new slogan?

Millions of middle easterners can't be wrong!
Hooked on Fundamentalism worked for me!
Come for the history, stay for the stonings!
 
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