I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! In other words, the Shin Bet announced there will be major war in Gaza in the next year.

You forgot "democratically elected" in your list of adjectives.

Seneca Doane: You forgot "democratically elected" in your list of adjectives.

Hitler was "democratically elected" too. Being "democratically elected" is not a free pass to do whatever the fark you want.

Gawd, these people are their own worst enemies.

Being "democratically elected" is not a free pass to do whatever the fark you want.

That, my friend, is exactly my point. We think that "bringing Democracy to the Middle East" will save the region and make the world all unicorns and butterflies, but so far empowering the likes of Hamas and al Sadr has been the only result of our great experiment.

Tatsuma: Hitler

That's a Godwin in 4. Not bad, but could be quicker!

SIDE NOTE: My spell-check thinks "Hamas" should be "Hams." How's *that* for irony?!

I just hope that someday they will stop the pigheadedness so they can attempt a peace agreement. I'm also wondering when they'll take responsibility for making Palestine a better place to live for it's own people.

anyone any figures as to how many palestinians the isrealis are killing per day at the moment?

am i correct in thinking that there has been an ongoing israeli offensive in gaza for some months now?

anyone any figures as to how many palestinians the isrealis are killing per day at the moment?

I think that's irrelevant. Israel's belligerent actions should make us sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian people. Their actions shouldn't make us sympathetic to the corrupt and divisive government of the Palestinian Authority.

seneca doane

the fact that one country is carrying out an offensive against another, killing dozens of its people per day, is surely entirely relevant if we are seeking to look at the motivations for the attacked governmnet's stance

further, israel has been baking the palestinain party that is considered more corrupt than hamas - so your stance regarding the 'corrupt government of the palestinain authority' seems to be self-defeating

Seneca Doane: Israel's belligerent actions should make us sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian people.

You mean the people who deliberately kill women and children? Screw 'em.

21-7-b: am i correct in thinking that there has been an ongoing israeli offensive in gaza for some months now?

No, you're not

You'd be correct thinking there has been half a dozen operations since Gilad was kidnapped

OK, so what see so far is...

One side : You don't have a tight to exist and we will destroy you.
Other side : We have a right to exist and we will destroy you for wanting to destroy us.

Am I off base here? How long until we decide to just let them duke it out and make whoever wins clean up the mess?

tatsuma

so, can you give me the dates of those offensives please - just so we can clear up that they have really been distinct events. they all seem to have the same purpose and i'm wondering how long the breaks between them have been - they certainly don't seem to have been significant

also, can you give me the figures regarding how many people the israelis have killed during these 'multiple' offensives (as per my request in 2006-11-14 08:18:41 AM), please

what about this story, tatsuma - i imagine that it's not the sort of thing that you would submit to the queue as part of your one-man propaganda campaign

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=58821

Lethal Israeli operations merely radicalize ordinary Palestinians and weaken moderates like president Mahmud Abbas who advocates a negotiated solution to the conflict, analysts believe.

While Abbas has been up against the wall in tortured efforts to persuade Hamas to agree to a unity government and moderate political platform, nearly 100 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli guns in a week, largely in Gaza.

In particularly strong language, Abbas on Wednesday slammed Israel's "terrible massacres" and accused the Jewish state of single handedly destroying "all chances of peace" after shells slammed into homes killing 18 Palestinians.

Continued Israeli offensives and the lack of any political efforts on the horizon of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are jeopardizing president Abbas's peaceable bent, says political analyst Hani al-Masri.

"For Palestinian moderates, the recent Israeli operations in Gaza, spilling Palestinian blood, indicates that Israel has nothing to offer other than force and that is pushing Abbas to harden his positions," Masri said.

what are your thoughts about that?

Aparthied South Africa


The West Bank


As cankersore said earlier:
The situation in Palestine is part of what fuels Arab resentment among young, modern Arabs. The cycle of violence, the fact that Israel's actions are always labeled as a "response" while Palestine's are always labeled an "attack" in Western media, the occupation of territory, the sniping of children, and especially the fact that Western nations (esp. the U.S.) fail to reel in or pressure Israel -- instead giving them more and more money -- paints an ugly picture to mainstream Arabs and Muslims who are forming their political views and deciding where their sympathies lie. These are the people who could choose to become decent, religiously and politically open-minded adults, or could choose to become militant, al-Qaeda supporting terrorists or terrorist funders.
They watch and what they see is not Israel acting because of what happened in 1947/67, they where not born, but Israel calculatedly choosing to play into a cycle of violence when it clearly has the power and intelligence to do otherwise. What we know for certain is that Israel's methods of using disproportionate response against their attackers do absolutely nothing to stop the cycle of violence, but rather keeps it going. It is also clear that a significant portion of the IDF and Israel's right-wing government view Palestinian life as utterly expendable. It is disheartening to see people defend this.

Here's a good headstart:

It started with Operation Summer Rains and we're now in Operation Autumn Clouds.

There were at least two different operations to find Gilad, and two to stop the rockets, post-kidnappings. And one or two others at least.

21-7-b: what are your thoughts about that?

Stop firing missiles and the Israeli offensive will stop

give em all guns, build a fence around the entire region, and let them have at each other. they are ALL animals.

At this point, the Palestinians are just masochists. Perhaps the Israelis for that matter.

If all of you who are troubled by the plight of the Palestinians would funnel just a portion of that attention toward some of the legitimate genocides going on around the world (Africa, in particular), maybe you can do some actual good.

So, which is the chicken and which is the egg?

atomsmoosher: If all of you who are troubled by the plight of the Palestinians would funnel just a portion of that attention toward some of the legitimate genocides going on around the world (Africa, in particular), maybe you can do some actual good.

Can't you do both?

You're an animal too pilto. Lets have a vote and put you down.

Lard_Baron

Can't you do both?

You could, most don't.

How many dozens of knuckle-headed, non-binding UN generally assembly actions have their been about Israel? Israel is a tiny flea-speck of a nation that is, largely speaking, trying to behave (I know that's a killer right there for some) by rule of law in a lawless world.

Scores are being slaughtered in Sudan, Chad, China, Congo, Ethiopia, Burma (or whatever it is called now) Somalia, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan and dozens of other hot spots.

Yet the Palestinians, toward whom a half-century of diplomacy has failed to convince to seek a peaceful solution to a political problem, are the world's most cherished victims. They don't even rate in the top ten.

Lard_Baron

You say that Irael has the intelligence and the power to act differently. How?

Don't you have to actually be a country to refuse to recognize an actual country?

/Today in the news, the US Virgin Islands refuse to recognize the United States.

atomsmoosher: Yet the Palestinians, toward whom a half-century of diplomacy has failed to convince to seek a peaceful solution to a political problem, are the world's most cherished victims. They don't even rate in the top ten

I'm sorry, but the plight or the Palestinians is due to the attitude of Israel. It takes two to make peace, and Israel, or at least this right wing version, is simply not interested. Its not a political problem, its a land grab.
Israel has the West bank,
They have the backing of the worlds super power
They have nukes
They hold all the cards.
You need to aim your diplomacy at Isreal, not Palestine.

A little googling got me Genocide Watch, which lists that there are 16 or so nations currently at "stage 7" -- the mass-killing stage.

Sloth_DC

The PA is recognized by a lot of nations. I believe they inherited the PLO observer seat in the UN. And since they are recognized as the spokesmen for the palestinians, its important.

Lard_Baron

You need to aim your diplomacy at Isreal, not Palestine.

Odd that you bring that up, Israel has been able to make peace with its neighbors (Jordan and Egypt) and even withdrew from Lebanon following a UN resolution.

The palestinians, however, have continually acted in bad faith when given concessions. They walked out of the 2000 accords after being offered all of the Gaza Strip (which they got anyway) and most of the West Bank (both of which Israel won fair-and-square in the Six-Day War). The Palestinians refused any negotiations that did not include all of everything, especially Jerusalem and the right of return.

That's hardly negotiating.

But that's beside my point that this otherwise insignificant conflict commands a disproportionate amount of the world's diplomatic attention.

Galloping Galoshes: The PA is recognized by a lot of nations.

As spokesmen for the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank, not as a nation.

I believe they inherited the PLO observer seat in the UN.

The key words there being "observer seat", because only nations get voting seats.

Sloth_DC

Again, the key is, does the PA speak for the palestinian people. If Hamas and Fatah are in agreement in supporting it, then it does, for the most part.

Galloping Galoshes: Again, the key is, does the PA speak for the palestinian people.

No, the key is, "Is the PA a country?"

And, the answer to your question is: they represent those Palestinians who reside in the West Bank and Gaza, but not those who live in Israel or Jordan. The region of "Palestine" encompasses all three - although the PLO charter only commits them to "freeing" the part currently in Israel. In fact, it specifically states that Gaza and the West Bank are *not* under its authority.

atomsmoosher: They walked out of the 2000 accords after being offered all of the Gaza Strip
Er no, they didn't.

(which they got anyway) and most of the West Bank (both of which Israel won fair-and-square in the Six-Day War). The Palestinians refused any negotiations that did not include all of everything, especially Jerusalem and the right of return.
Er no, they didn't

Where do you get your facts from?

Sloth_DC

I grant you your point. However, I think it makes little difference. If Hamas and the the PA state they do not accept Israel's right to exist, it makes it very difficult for Israel to negotiate with them. Israel is sitting at the table by itself.

Galloping Galoshes: I grant you your point. However, I think it makes little difference. If Hamas and the the PA state they do not accept Israel's right to exist, it makes it very difficult for Israel to negotiate with them. Israel is sitting at the table by itself.

Indeed - but it won't stop them from accusing Israel of not negotiating with them fairly. It's an old, old game.

atomsmoosher:

Who ended the peace negotiations?

Since beginning of the Al Aqsa intifada much blame has been placed on former President Yasser Arafat for the ending of the peace talks in 2000 at Camp David. He refused to give Israel 27% of the West Bank, with the rest fractured into multiple pieces, in exchange for Israel's promise that in 10 to 25 years Israel would eventually give 90% of the West Bank to the Palestinian authority (94% excluding greater Jerusalem) [8] [9]. What most Western commentators fail to add is that talks continued at the Taba Summit in Egypt in January 2001. At these talks both sides came the nearest to agreement than at any time in the entire history of the occupation. However the Israeli Prime Minister Barak pulled out of the peace talks to begin campaigning for the Israeli elections. Yasser Arafat sensing that Taba may have been his last chance to negotiate a peace deal, called for Barak to come back to the table. This was unheeded and Barak went on to lose the Israeli election to the Likud leader Ariel Sharon.


The EU report that both parites agree is accurate has this to say;

According to the maps, the Palestinian state would have been permanently divided into several sub areas in the West Bank , separated by areas of Israeli Control. Striped areas would have remained under Israeli control for 12 to 20 years. According to FMEP, The calculation that the Palestinians were getting 97% of the land ignores the area of Jerusalem and the striped areas. In actuality, the area of the Palestinian state would initially be about 70% of some 2,200 square miles.

atomsmoosher: A little googling got me Genocide Watch, which lists that there are 16 or so nations currently at "stage 7" -- the mass-killing stage.

...but.. but.. the Israelis!

Sloth_DC accusing Israel of not negotiating with them fairly.

True, but the international community has generally come around on this one. Arafat made it much harder for Hamas, et. al., when he recognized Israel's right to exist. Its a big reason the Euros went along with cutting off the PA when Hamas took over. As long as Hamas and PA don't recognize Israel, they put themselves at a moral disadvantage.

Lard_Baron: What most Western commentators fail to add is that talks continued at the Taba Summit in Egypt in January 2001. At these talks both sides came the nearest to agreement than at any time in the entire history of the occupation. However the Israeli Prime Minister Barak pulled out of the peace talks to begin campaigning for the Israeli elections. Yasser Arafat sensing that Taba may have been his last chance to negotiate a peace deal, called for Barak

That's a distortion - Arafat refused to negotiate, and reversed several agreements that had already been reached between the Israeli and PA negotiators, at which point Barak left to go campaign. Arafat could have reached an agreement with Israel any time before Barak hit the campaign trail, but he declined to do so.

According to the maps, the Palestinian state would have been permanently divided into several sub areas in the West Bank , separated by areas of Israeli Control.

Source?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/taba_proposals_is2_1.jpg

Lard_Baron

atomsmoosher: They walked out of the 2000 accords after being offered all of the Gaza Strip
Er no, they didn't.

Well, they didn't storm out or anything. Yet, what was Arafat's counteroffer? Isn't that back-and-forth part of negotiations? Arafat wasn't rejecting the two-state solution, explicitly, but he didn't necessarily help, either.

Where do you get your facts from?

News, wikipedia, my ass.

Getting back to my point, why does the world care so damn much about the Palestinians and Israelis and so damn little about stuff going on elsewhere?

atomsmoosher

The world cares because the arabs cared. Israel was seen as the last of the western colonies by a lot of third-world countries, so the whole anti-colonial thing resonates with them. The "non-aligned nations", led by Cuba during the Cold War, cared because of the US/Soviet divide in the area. The Arab governments have used the palestinian issue as an excuse to hold down their people (we're at war, see). A lot of issues have focused on this area, strategic, historic, economic. Kept it alive when normally it would have faded by now.

In actuality, the area of the Palestinian state would initially be about 70% of some 2,200 square miles.

...which would then return to their control, barring Jerusalem and some settlements, in 10 to 20 years to the tune of 97-some per cent.

You're fiddling over details and semantics.

It isn't much of a negotiation if you leave without counter-offering anything and then go home to encourage the Second Intifada. Here's a hint, one backed by more than a half-century of history: if you want to be left alone, don't poke at Israel.

Still, it doesn't deny that this is still, relatively speaking, small potatoes when confronted by the shiat going on globally.

Sloth_DC


Source?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/taba_proposals_is2_1.jpg

The Palestinian interest groups, like FMEP, have a version of the map that looks like L_B says it does. Here is a version that shows the evolution of the maps (from Mideastweb.org, an admittedly biased site).