Tatsuma: he was an avant-garde jazz geek, after all.


your trollin that one pretty hard....no big jazz fans in the thread apparently

bake420: does anyone use "I" statements, or does everyone think they speak for all humanity????

Tomorrow morning, if Avant-Garde Jazz had never existed, society would still be the same. It had not utiliatarian contribution to society. I'm sorry, but he's an avant-garde jazz geek. He brought nothing whatsoever useful to society

Did he deserve to die for this? No.

But the guy picking up my trash was far more useful than him

petdance

I'm sorry that your friend took his own life and I know it must be hard for those that knew him and cared for him. However, I cannot help but wonder why he would use the source of much of his angst, President Bush, as his background for his website. Clearly, all was not right in this man's head.

Finnley Wren: I see a lot of skinhead activity goin on there and lots of continued pro-Nazi activity. Am I wrong?
There would be no "intellectual culture of Europe" if it weren't for the U.S.

Wow, Finnley, if you think golo is a dingbat, I must say, you are racing for the title

skeezmo.

Sorry mate, but I don't think we're talking about the same germany. Your friend who lives in Germany (really? - how about that!) might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder, as the picture you paint doesn't bare any relation to the Germany I know (cologne and berlin, 4 years in total).

Loathe and dispise the handicapped? That would be funny if it wasn't so plain wrong. This country does a damn sight better at looking after its less fortunate members of society than the US seems to (see Katrina).

Farking my Brains Out

Colonialism is defined by Oregon State University as "forced change in which one culture, society, or nation dominates another." It can further be defined as

1.the control or governing influence of a nation over a dependent country, territory, or people.
2.the system or policy by which a nation maintains or advocates such control or influence.
3.the state or condition of being colonial.
4.an idea, custom, or practice peculiar to a colony.

US Neocolonialism exists today in Iraq. We invaded, imprisoned the ruler and forced together a government modled in a slipshod fashion after ours. We were interacting with an unfriendly country who happened to sit at the center of most of the worlds oil. We ousted Hussein to get better access to his oil. No other reason really fits. We wanted a friendly, pro business society to possess those fields. Regardless of our motives, US colonialism is alive and well. Now please back your claim up.

2006-11-14 09:44:44 AM Tatsuma [TotalFark]

The guy picking your trash up is far more intelligent than you too..... What is your point?

maffick: Wow, your arrogance reaches a new level. I am thinking you are less useful to society than any jazz geek I have ever met.....

As of right now, not really. While I'm a student and it's not really useful so far, I also work in a warehouse that ships medical equipment.

That already makes me more useful than avant-garde jazz geek.

bake420: your trollin that one pretty hard....no big jazz fans in the thread apparently

I like Jazz. This has nothing to do with this.

Modeled. Sorry guys, typing with a broken hand.

Tatsuma: But the guy picking up my trash was far more useful TO ME than him

your existence does not disqualify his

maffick: The guy picking your trash up is far more intelligent than you too..... What is your point?

And your father is stronger than mine? Is this the point where you kick sand in my face?

bake420: your existence does not disqualify his

Let's see for a second which would affect most society:

A) Trash not picked up anymore
B) No more Avant-Garde Jazz

Hmmm, really, I wonder.

Tatsuma: That already makes me very expendable.

anyone can draive tow motor, pick up boxes

It must be hard to own your own construction company, to be a dj, to be a voice-over artist and reading the Kyoto Protocol all in a week's work.

Piker. I own my own business, I'm a musician, a hand-model, and I've been contracted by Karl Rove to re-write the US Constitution, and that's just for the next 3 days.

I guess that's why he was banging his trophy wife AND posted ads searching for a woman. He needed to even the work load

That's nothing compared to the space-shuttle porn me and the wife have hired Demi Moore to do with us on the next launch.

Killing yourself is the stupidest way to make a point ever.

/well, except for my previous post, anyway.

No! Please don't take my avant-garde jazz!

I have to admit, a single afternoon of listening to avant-garde jazz would probably make me consider self-immolation. I can only imagine what six-straight years of it would do to a person. Maybe he is a hero for sticking it out for so long.

"There would be no "intellectual culture of Europe" if it weren't for the U.S"

Absolutely classic! You've got a firm grasp of history there, my friend. Look, I really *do not* want to get into this tired debate. Please spare me??

I'll second bake420 and leave it at that.

"skeezmo.

Sorry mate, but I don't think we're talking about the same germany. Your friend who lives in Germany (really? - how about that!) might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder, as the picture you paint doesn't bare any relation to the Germany I know (cologne and berlin, 4 years in total).

Loathe and dispise the handicapped? That would be funny if it wasn't so plain wrong. This country does a damn sight better at looking after its less fortunate members of society than the US seems to (see Katrina)."

Nope, not making this shiat up. He's living this every day. He lives in Tuttlingen(sp?) for the record and he loves Germany but the experiences he's had with his daughter have really soured him with it's people. Bitter? Hell yeah, and I can't say I blame him. You'd be bitter too if you experienced what he has.

As for Katrina, I think I understand where your logic is failing you. You are confusing our Governmnet with it's people. As the mid-term elections have proven, America's people do not agree with much if not most of what our governmnet is up to. We're not all braindead hillbillies.

I can always find someone to pick up trash.
But I need my avante gard jazz accompaniest
every. single. day.

/jazzy!

Speaking for myself, I LIKE fark because of the degenerates mixing in with the smart people (Or is it smart people mixing with the degenerates?)

I REALLY LIKE the smart degenerates.

Without this mixture, it wouldn't be fark, and I wouldn't be here.

/Ha! Ha! Your dad is a flaming... No, wait. Your dad is a flame PERIOD !!!11ty!!
//Likes avant-garde jazz

golo606: I'll second bake420 and leave it at that.

I accept your surrender, golo. Third time in a century Berlin has done it, so I guess it's second nature by now.

I am guessing tat is one of those hasidic's who expect their women to be subservient? About the same level as a fundy muslim?

/GOOOOO HAMAS!

//not really, but clowns like that make me think the suicide bombers really have a point....

Here's the suicide note he posted on his website. Spend some time looking around the rest of the site. He really was an extraordinary man. Shame to be without him.
-----------------------------------------------------
My actions should be self-explanatory, and since in our self-obsessed culture words seldom match the deed, writing a mission statement would seem questionable. So judge me by my actions. Maybe some will be scared enough to wake from their walking dream state - am I therefore a martyr or terrorist? I would prefer to be thought of as a 'spiritual warrior'. Our so-called leaders are the real terrorists in the world today, responsible for more deaths than Osama bin Laden.

I have had a wonderful life, both full and full of wonder. I have experienced love and the joy and heartache of raising a child. I have jumped out of an airplane, and escaped a burning building. I have spent the night in jail, and dropped acid during the sixties. I have been privileged to have met many supremely talented musicians and writers, most of whom were extremely generous and gracious. Even during the hard times, I felt charmed. Even the difficult lessons have been like blessed gifts. When I hear about our young men and women who are sent off to war in the name of God and Country, and who give up their lives for no rational cause at all, my heart is crushed. What has happened to my country? we have become worse than the imagined enemy - killing civilians and calling it 'collateral damage', torturing and trampling human rights inside and outside our own borders, violating our own Constitution whenever it seems convenient, lying and stealing right and left, more concerned with sports on television and ring-tones on cell-phones than the future of the world.... half the population is taking medication because they cannot face the daily stress of living in the richest nation in the world.

I too love God and Country, and feel called upon to serve. I can only hope my sacrifice is worth more than those brave lives thrown away when we attacked an Arab nation under the deception of 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. Our interference completely destroyed that country, and destabilized the entire region. Everyone who pays taxes has blood on their hands.

I have had one previous opportunity to serve my country in a meaningful way - at 8:05 one morning in 2002 I passed Donald Rumsfeld on Delaware Avenue and I was acutely aware that slashing his throat would spare the lives of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people. I had a knife clenched in my hand, and there were no bodyguards visible; to my deep shame I hesitated, and the moment was past.

The violent turmoil initiated by the United States military invasion of Iraq will beget future centuries of slaughter, if the human race lasts that long. First we spit on the United Nations, then we expect them to clean up our mess. Our elected representatives are supposed to find diplomatic and benevolent solutions to these situations. Anyone can lash out and retaliate, that is not leadership or vision. Where is the wisdom and honor of the people we delegate our trust to?

To the rest of the world we are cowards - demanding Iraq to disarm, and after they comply, we attack with remote-control high-tech video-game weapons. And then lie about our reasons for invading. We the people bear complete responsibility for all that will follow, and it won't be pretty.

It is strange that most if not all of this destruction is instigated by people who claim to believe in God, or Allah. Many sane people turn away from religion, faced with the insanity of the 'true believers'. There is a lot of confusion: many people think that God is like Santa Claus, rewarding good little girls with presents and punishing bad little boys with lumps of coal; actually God functions more like the Easter Bunny, hiding surprises in plain sight. God does not choose the Lottery numbers, God does not make the weather, God does not endorse military actions by the self-righteous, God does not sit on a cloud listening to your prayers for prosperity. God does not smite anybody. If God watches the sparrow fall, you notice that it continues to drop, even to its death. Face the truth folks, God doesn't care, that's not what God is or does. If the human race drives itself to extinction, God will be there for another couple million years, 'watching' as a new species rises and falls to replace us. It is time to let go of primitive and magical beliefs, and enter the age of personal responsibility. Not telling others what is right for them, but making our own choices, and accepting consequences.

"Who would Jesus bomb?" This question is primarily addressing a Christian audience, but the same issues face the Muslims and the Jews: God's message is tolerance and love, not self-righteousness and hatred. Please consider "Thou shalt not kill" and "As ye sow, so shall ye reap". Not a lot of ambiguity there.

What is God? God is the force of life - the spark of creation. We each carry it within us, we share it with each other. Whether we are conscious of the life-force is a choice we make, every minute of every day. If you choose to ignore it, nothing will happen - you are just 'less conscious'. Maybe you are less happy (maybe not). Maybe you grow able to tap into the universal force, and increase the creativity in the universe. Love is anti-entropy. Please notice that 'conscious' and 'conscience' are related concepts.

Why God - what is the value? Whether committee consensus of a benevolent power that works through humans, or giant fungus under Oregon, the value of opening up to the concept of God is in coming to the realization that we are not alone, establishing a connection to the universe, the experience of finding completion. As individuals we may exist alone, but we are all alone together as a people. Faith is the answer to fear. Fear opposes love. To manipulate through fear is a betrayal of trust.

What does God want? No big mystery - simply that we try to help each other. We decide to make God-like decisions, rescuing falling sparrows, or putting the poor things out of their misery. Tolerance, giving, acceptance, forgiveness.

If this sounds a lot like pop psychology, that is my exact goal. Never underestimate the value of a pep-talk and a pat on the ass. That is basically all we give to our brave soldiers heading over to Iraq, and more than they receive when they return. I want to state these ideas in their simplest form, reducing all complexity, because each of us has to find our own answers anyway. Start from here...

I am amazed how many people think they know me, even people who I have never talked with. Many people will think that I should not be able to choose the time and manner of my own death. My position is that I only get one death, I want it to be a good one. Wouldn't it be better to stand for something or make a statement, rather than a fiery collision with some drunk driver? Are not smokers choosing death by lung cancer? Where is the dignity there? Are not the people the people who disregard the environment killing themselves and future generations? Here is the statement I want to make: if I am required to pay for your barbaric war, I choose not to live in your world. I refuse to finance the mass murder of innocent civilians, who did nothing to threaten our country. I will not participate in your charade - my conscience will not allow me to be a part of your crusade. There might be some who say "it's a coward's way out" - that opinion is so idiotic that it requires no response. From my point of view, I am opening a new door.

What is one more life thrown away in this sad and useless national tragedy? If one death can atone for anything, in any small way, to say to the world: I apologize for what we have done to you, I am ashamed for the mayhem and turmoil caused by my country. I was alive when John F. Kennedy instilled hope into a generation, and I was a sorry witness to the final crushing of hope by Dick Cheney's puppet, himself a pawn of the real rulers, the financial plunderers and looters who profit from every calamity; following the template of Reagan's idiocracy.

The upcoming elections are not a solution - our two party system is a failure of democracy. Our government has lost its way since our founders tried to build a structure which allowed people to practice their own beliefs, as far as it did not negatively affect others. In this regard, the separation of church and state needs to be reviewed. This is a large part of the way that the world has gone wrong, the endless defining and dividing of things, micro-sub-categorization, sectarianism. The direction we need is a process of unification, integrating all people into a world body, respecting each individual. Business and industry have more power than ever before, and individuals have less. Clearly, the function of government is to protect the individual, from hardship and disease, from zealots, from the exploitation, from monopoly, even from itself. Our leaders are not wise persons with integrity and vision - they are actors reading from teleprompters, whose highest goal is to stir up the mob. Our country slaughters Arabs, abandons New Orleaneans, and ignores the dieing environment. Our economy is a house of cards, as hollow and fragile as our reputation around the world. We as a nation face the abyss of our own design.

A coalition system which includes a Green Party would be an obvious better approach than our winner-take-all system. Direct electronic debate and balloting would be an improvement over our non-representative congress. Consider that the French people actually have a voice, because they are willing to riot when the government doesn't listen to them.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government... " - Abraham Lincoln

With regard to those few who crossed my path carrying the extreme and unnecessary weight of animosity: they seemed by their efforts to be punishing themselves. As they acted out the misery of their lives it is now difficult to feel anything other than pity for them.

Without fear I go now to God - your future is what you will choose today.

bake420: anyone can draive tow motor, pick up boxes

Absolutely, that's why I said "not so much". Some other guy could be doing my job and be more useful than I am. But he's not doing my job, so he isn't.

I don't buy this bullshiat "everyone is a unique snowflake giving back equally to society" state of mind

A doctor gives more to society than a ballet dancer
A firefighter gives more to society than a pro sports athlete
A man who picks up trash gives more to an Avant-Garde Jazz geek

Yeah, that's an utilitarian point of view and it doesn't take in account Art and the like. But it's still true.

However, that does not mean that one has a better right to life than one or the other. THAT way, everyone is equal. Not when it comes to usefulness

Tatsuma: Hmmm, really, I wonder.

one thing you dont have to wonder about is why you help propogate anti-semitism

The "people" of America are generally kind and compassionate people. It's government however is chock-full of a-holes.

2006-11-14 09:39:08 AM petdance


The guy's website:

http://www.savagesound.com/

He was a friend of an old friend of mine.

I visited his website. I am sad.

I am also sorry that a creative and passionate life was lost. I have real pain that one with the energy of this one chose such a worthless final path.

If his goal was to end the war, it was wasted. If he loved his music community so much and he wanted to bring attention to them then it worked. But the bottom line is another life is wasted.

loudmouthsoup: Here's the suicide note he posted on his website.

I stopped at Call me Ishmael.

Tatsuma: No, the only thing "tragic" here is that millions of people who are dying, suffering, paralyzed, all these people want to live, would love nothing more than exchange their plight for that man who was perfectly healthy, yet that self-absorbed coont decided to kill himself trying to make a point that completely failed and will affect nothing

Perhaps the point he was trying to make will be lost in the shuffle and ultimately affect nothing, but I wasn't talking about his point. I was talking about his Death. We have just heard from someone that knew him a bit earlier in the thread. Do you think his death isn't tragic to him? Do you think his death isn't tragic to his family.

Sure, the reasonings behind it are up to scrutiny (and some questionable humor around here), but those reasonings should not undermine the prevailing tragedy of the result.

Yes, millions are dying, like you said. Their circumstances are tragic. Their deaths are tragic. In my mind, more-so than the tragic death of the protester. But both are tragic, nonetheless.

I never called the protester a hero or a revolutionary. I called him a tragic example of what the human mind can do.

If he doesn't get his way? Are you truly that petulant? Keep yourself rational. The man sees people dying daily. I read more in the Chicago sun times and Harper's Magazine. The guy was an activist. He sat down and succinctly stated why he was doing this. He was meeting an obligation. Monks don't train on how to burn. Your "generations of study" arguement bears no fruit. Monks don't tend to come from children of monks and they don't tend to train on burning themselves. Buddhist monks focus on ending desire as it is the root of unhappiness. If that's the root of enlightenment, then I could have written the farking Mumonkan.

pussy.

Guys, let me rant a little bit philosophically and look a little deeper into this issue, since the German guy has threadjacked this discussion into one of whether or not modern Americans are today's version of cowed Germans from the time of the Nazis, watching as our military slaughters all of the oppressed people of the planet in concentration camps or otherwise just in their own homes (sarcasm).

There is a question at hand that flatly forces us to ask is this man who burned himself alive -- with an expressed reason -- insane? It's easy for people to pity him, and say ,"oh poor depressed, mentally ill fellow." I mean, he burned alive, that's gotta suck. A person can come to the quickly-reached conclusion he was simply nuts. But he didn't do it because he though Uranian dandelion men were coming to steal all the world's bees. No, he did it in protest of US action in Iraq (or so I read/hear). People are naturally averted to coming to the conclusion that there might be rationality in something that at first glance seems completely crazy and really uncomfortable to try to comprehend. Why? Partly because no one wants to think they personally might discover it makes sense.

From TFA:
"Self-immolation is not a common act, mostly because it's one of the slowest, most painful, and messiest ways a person can kill himself. For most Americans, consciousness of the act comes down to one man, and one photograph: a 1963 shot of a Vietnamese monk named Thích Quảng Đức,
seated in the Lotus position in the middle of a Saigon street, consumed by flames, protesting the treatment of Buddhists under a Catholic regime. The few monks who did this didn't consider it suicide, but rather a form of non-violent protest-- a way for pacifists to speak louder than those who kill. (Gandhi, when questioned on the limits of pacifism, had suggested similar thinking.) There's no question that self-immolation is agonizing, and that's precisely why it's been used as a form of protest: It's meant to show an intense commitment to one's cause."

-------

We've been conditioned to make fun of anything that we find it difficult or painful to comprehend. It was Nietzsche that said laughter and mirth brought one "above" that which was the subject of laughter. And that's what we do today. Though the term "above" is deceiving, as it might imply in some way that the subject matter is "beneath" us and, therefore, not worth our contemplation and only useful insofar as we get a kick out of it.

Well, I'd suggest that death in any form is not funny, or shouldn't be considered laughable until you deeply and truly appreciate the fact that life -- human life -- was lost. That is to say, don't laugh at people dying until you are sure you truly appreciate the meaning of that death. Otherwise, you are no better than barbarians. And I think that's what our German friend, whose countrymen learned that painful lesson the absolute hardest way (and so they should have), was kind of trying to say.

/laugh on

Mr.Churka: He sat down and succinctly stated why he was doing this.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

maffick: I am guessing tat is one of those hasidic's who expect their women to be subservient? About the same level as a fundy muslim?

Let's see

A) Ignorance of the differences between religions? Check
B) Failing to understand simple context? Check
C) Horrid grammar errors about terms he doesn't understand? Check
D) Slight racial dig? Check

We got a winner!

Aaaha, Aaaah, I'm on fire! Take this ARGGH Bush while I dieaaaaargh! My actions should be self-explanatory, and since in our self-obsessed culture words seldom match the deed, writing a mission statement would seem questionable. So judge me by my actions. Maybe some will be scared enough to wake from their walking dream state - am I therefore a martyr or terrorist? I would prefer to be thought of as a 'spiritual warrior'. Our so-called leaders are the real terrorists in the world today, responsible for more deaths than Osama bin Laden.

Ok, the guy was a farker. What a conceited bastard. He sounds like a farking onion article.

Tatsumai say that, because you are the "super joo" of fark, yet you are also one of the largest asshats when it comes to everything else, and if i thought you were a "super jew" and the way you act and the things you say was accepteable by your culture and society , then yes you promote anit semitism

Roasted, you probably can't even harvest the farker's organs.
Selfish coont is right, Tat.

Thanks for the text loudmouthsoup. I probably would have voted for him.

2006-11-14 09:39:57 AM Tatsuma
Yeah, but it's still a completely dumb train of thoughts.
"Hey, I'm doing things and it's not affecting anything, let's kill myself and stop affecting things altogether!"

come on, Tasuma. you know i typically follow your trains of thought in other threads, not that i always agree with them, and without calling them dumb. but you seem to to be completely devaluing this guy,, equaiting his life with his societal "usefullness".

but the point of the whole matter is going to lay in where one situates this matter. if you situate the problem within the guy, that he was "dumb" "ill" "depressed" "useless" etc., then of course his ability to effect anything is going to end with him whenever his life ends. if you situate in the world, in the sociopolitical realm, some people- not all- might take it as a rough indicator of precisely the powerlessness and anomie the "ordinary person" experiences in effecting any type of sociopolitical change without resorting to drastic measures.

for me, i never argued he's a hero or a mental patient. ultimately, his suicide is becoming more about us and our beliefs, attitudes, and prejudices not just about the war but about the value of life.

2006-11-14 09:58:34 AM bake420

Yepper, he certainly reinforces my negative stereotypes of jews.....

bake420: one thing you dont have to wonder about is why you help propogate anti-semitism

Again, a dig at my race! You and Mafficks would have a great time together!

wcuservo: Perhaps the point he was trying to make will be lost in the shuffle and ultimately affect nothing, but I wasn't talking about his point. I was talking about his Death. We have just heard from someone that knew him a bit earlier in the thread. Do you think his death isn't tragic to him? Do you think his death isn't tragic to his family.

As I said earlier, this is a tragedy for those that knew him, loved him and his family.

Sure, the reasonings behind it are up to scrutiny (and some questionable humor around here), but those reasonings should not undermine the prevailing tragedy of the result.

It's not a tragedy. Suicide for such reasons is only a tragedy for the people your hurt.

Yes, millions are dying, like you said. Their circumstances are tragic. Their deaths are tragic. In my mind, more-so than the tragic death of the protester. But both are tragic, nonetheless.

Again, I disagree. It's not tragic. The guy was so wrapped up in his own life and cause that he killed himself over it.

I never called the protester a hero or a revolutionary. I called him a tragic example of what the human mind can do.

It's only tragic for those he hurt.

I'd also like to point out he was trying to raise awareness of the deaths and suffering in Iraq through his act since we seem to be having difficulty appreciating it otherwise, Tatsuma.

"...then yes you promote anit semitism..."

hmmmm...perhaps Tatsuma is really a cunning and patient extremists muslim....

platypusjones: ultimately, his suicide is becoming more about us and our beliefs, attitudes, and prejudices not just about the war but about the value of life.

Well said.

Well stated, damonk. Maybe I should have just said something like that (I'm not patient enough when 'at work') to begin with.

/not German!!
//accept accusations of threadjacking
///what sarcasm?

2006-11-14 09:45:54 AM Mr.Churka


Farking my Brains Out

Colonialism is defined by Oregon State University as "forced change in which one culture, society, or nation dominates another."... blahblahblahblabh .... US colonialism is alive and well. Now please back your claim up.

No.

Because you haven't backed up yours. Stating a definition and then continuing your same point doesn't work. Not only is colonialism not on the rise it is at an all time historic low. The current world boundaries are much the same for the past 30 years and little changed over the past 60 since the end of WWII. Colonialism is all but dead. What America is doing in Iraq is of a questionable foundation, but it is not Colonialism.

Good lord, this thread got long. Anyhoo...

Sunny Ray:
I am the WINNER! In yo' face biatches! Suck it.

There was a flag due to excessive endzone celebration. You'll be starting the next thread at a distinct, though minor, disadvantage.

Tatsuma: Again, a dig at my race!

it is a religion, you are arabic as a race

read my next post, i said if you are going to be fark's "super joo" then you are under the microscope with the rest of your words and actions.

either accept or deny the title, and take the responsibilty that comes with being "super joo of fark"

maffick: Yepper, he certainly reinforces my negative stereotypes of jews.....

Tatsuma: Again, a dig at my race! You and Mafficks would have a great time together!

Yup. It's funny that you said "reinforces my negative stereotypes of jews", which is an admission that you already had a negative stereotype of Jews before seeing me

platypusjones: come on, Tasuma. you know i typically follow your trains of thought in other threads, not that i always agree with them, and without calling them dumb. but you seem to to be completely devaluing this guy,, equaiting his life with his societal "usefullness".

No no no, I'm not devaluing his life, only saying that what he did was not useful. I picked up on something someone else said. I didn't come here to say he was useless, merely that this specific act was useless and I got dragged in into a discussion about giving back to society

I just see this as a complete waste.

The man obviously believed strongly in what he believed. He could have helped orphans, he could have moved to Iraq to rebuild. He could have worked a life of charity and helping others

Instead, he chose to burn himself to death.