2006-11-14 09:17:44 AM Tatsuma

Now, he's useless. You think that Bush, if he ever hears this, is going to go "What have I done?? WHAT HAVE DOOOOOOONE????"

any more than when he gets a report that an IED blew up a truck in Hit or Anbar Province?

the significance of an act- and of a human life- does not always correspond to its utility.

Mr.Churka: He wasn't willing to stick wholly to a nonviolent stance and said he wished he had knifed rummy.

Is nonviolence really meaningful if you have no desire to harm anyone in the first place?

Finnley Wren: I think it very relevant where one lives

and that is the attitude that gets people killed, esspecially if you are brown!!

Read the whole article, nice way to start the day. Here's a guy who's dedication to music matters to a small community. Is this dedication to an anti war cause or mental illness? Sorry, it's the latter. That has got to be one of the most painful ways to go. . .

He should have used Conjure Flame then Rogort's Invocation followed by Mind Burn and then inferno. Works for me every time.

/Obsure Fire Elementalist?
// GW > WoW

Tatsuma

fark Bush Tatsuma. Bush doesn't care about the troops, let alone the aging jazz fan who burned himself. Bush probably won't even hear about it. Hell, the man can't even be bothered to read his terrorist plot briefings. The bottom line is that the ghuy stuck to his belief that nonviolence was the only acceptable method of living. He was an active anti war activist and he wasn't making progress. This probably did more to get people talking about the war than going door to door with flyers. At least people won't forget this one. That excludes Farking my Brains Out, of course who sees nonviolence and selfsacrafice as Passé.

Sunny Ray: Suck it.


forgot to ad teh LIBS

bake420: as people discussing it proves right?

We seem to be discussing Golo, right now.

platypusjones: the significance of an act- and of a human life- does not always correspond to its utility.

Yeah, and what I'm saying is that this act was insignificant and useless

MrMxyzptlk123:

fark is not a person.
who are you talking to, and who called him a hero??

slayer199: His suicide doesn't matter.

to you, perhaps. dont assume to speak for everyone

I wish he had immolated some extremists Muslim Terrorists that hate us for our Freedom. Surely he could have rounded up a few of them.

Finnley - so maybe where you live has some bearing on your opinions. In which case, farkers making digs at me about Nazi Germany because I live in Berlin in 2006 is stupid, to say the least. I may as well start blaming all the US farkers here for the genocide of the Native Americans.

It's relevant that I live in Europe and not the US, on the whole, of course.

Tatsuma: We seem to be discussing Golo, right now


point taken, but my footnote did say outside of fark ;o)

Golo reminds me of a Bizarro Mike_71 without THE RANDOM caps and the fact that HIS computer CAN use html

Hell, does anyone even remember Mike_71? He's in my top 5 farkers ever

Personally, I believe killing yourself is a sad and tragic event PERIOD!!

With that said, the reasonings behind suicides can range. The middle school student being bullied day in and day out, parents never home for one reason or another, severely depressed, putting a gun to his head while Linkin Park blares in his bedroom is tragic. My cousin did that. I wish I had known him better (he lived halfway across the country. I only saw him once a year at best). Perhaps I could have been some help.

There is no humor in that.

A man, desperate to voice his beliefs, pouring gasoline over himself and dying in a very slow and painful death is tragic as well. Is his death more meaningful simply because his beliefs are more "noble"?

I honestly don't take offense to the farkers making humorous remarks about this guy's mental state. I'm not going to, as I don't feel it appropriate. But I'm not going to put this protester on a pedestal just as I didn't put my cousin on one either.

Both died because they had certain beliefs. But no matter the cause, I always feel there is a better way than ending your life. To a depressed and sick mind, suicide may seem like the only answer. I feel for the family of this protester, especially his son.

Everyone, I'd just like to be serious here a sec and say I'm sorry about killing all the indians.

bake420: to you, perhaps. dont assume to speak for everyone

Yeah, his suicide mattered to the people who knew him, that's pretty much about farking it

There's not a single person on fark for whom this really matters.

bake420

In this case it was an all encompassing "suck it."


/have to admit "libs" had to be deleted
//my fingers are on auto pilot when "suck it" is typed

2006-11-14 09:06:58 AM Mr.Churka


Farking my Brains Out
Neither one of you crybabies get it. The world has changed. Immolation is a tactic, like Hari Kari, whose time has long passed.
Funny, because American neocolonialism seems to bee up and running. Care to back that claim up?

Right after you back yours up. Surely you can't be comparing the brave acts of one committed to a life of harmony and love with one who recorded obsure sounds.

One who is a highly disciplined monk and plans an act based upon generations of knowledge and then executes that act to create an effect is very different from a depressed loner setting himself on fire.

In what way? The monk sees that the only way to adhere to his philosophy of nonviolence is self destruction. The loner sees the same. Is the monk shameful because he left a family behind to join the temple? Does that have any bearing on the merit of the act? No. None at all. The act was courageous because it needed to be done and it was painful and difficult. Malachi Ritscher wasn't making progress against the war before this. He saw this as what needed to be done so he burned in horrible agony until he was dead. To belittle it because the guy didn't meditate frequently is a pretencious distinction which should have no bearing on the acts merit.

Wrong. The actions of ones life has a tremendous bearing on their final act in this instance. Being a war protester for a couple of years does not convert into a bhuddist monk on any spiritual or financial exchange. Come on, you can't seriously be taking the position that anyone who sets themselves on fire is a hero. In that case what about the 911 highjackers? Surely your logic awards them immolations (albiet in a grand sense)Emmies? Sorry Good sir, that 'final act defines all' mentality is not valid in this sense.


Both can protest the war, but the latter individual could still be here to affect a change daily. Instead he took a cowardly approach and did not confront the issue head on but committed suicide leaving family behind.

He did confront the issue headon. Note that he was a fierce antiwar activist. It got him nowhere. He had to go another way because he didn't have the social or political clout to instigate change. You call this cowardly? the courage to admit failure in one avenue and to pursue another?

I see your logic, if I don't get my way then I should kill myself... with fire...on video. Hmmm, are you on medication?

If you want a hero talk about the young man whose family is about to recieve the Medal of Honor for their sons bravery. He threw his body (and life) onto a grenade to save the lives of the two individuals under his command. THAT MAN IS A WAR HERO. The man you are idolizing is not a war hero.
/suicide is painless, it brings on many changes, you two can do the same thing if you please.

In what way is a willingness to kill to accomplish your goal comendable? If setting youself on fire is the act of a crzy person, so too is diving on a grenade. Tghey have about the same chance of having an effect. War heroes are pathetic when compared to those who would rather die by their ideals and do no harm. King was a hero. Ghandi was a hero. Malachi Ritscher, while shamed by these two for the simple fact that he wished he had knifed Rummy, is still a minor hero. He wasn't willing to end anything that didn't belong to him. Let's see that level of commitment from a "war hero."

Well, I will agree the likes of King and Ghandi far outweigh the actions of the suicidal loner with a match.

Civil disobeidiance is a wonderful way to effect change. Setting yourself on fire as a form of suicide is horrific (look the word up, it IS the perfect word). Being depressed enough to want to kill yourself is very sad. Being a loner and admittedly not brave enough (RTFA) to go out and meet people is very sad. Being both depressed and a loner and then setting yourself on fire is suicide.

Sorry, the act of Immolation is a powerful one when done by the right party. In this case it was suicide by a sad, depressed loner.

Tatsuma: There's not a single person on fark WHO really matters

fixed?!?!

Well said wcuservo.

golo606: farkers making digs at me about Nazi Germany because I live in Berlin in 2006 is stupid, to say the least

Can't speak for other Farkers, but only say for myself that I find it amusing to have brickbats hurled at the U.S. from the onetime capital of Nazi Germany, that's all. My sense of humor is obviously not the same as yours, and that's . . . OK.

2006-11-14 09:24:57 AM Tatsuma

Yeah, and what I'm saying is that this act was insignificant and useless

well, you didn't address the first part of the post.

with re: to above, we'll have to disagree, since i am saying that all actions don't have to be useful. however, the significance of this particular act is precisely in it's un-usefulness. if we believe the article, the guy tried protesting for a while, to what he perceived to be no avail. so he shows the futility by saying "this is useless". that's the internal logic.

I think golo raises some very good points. I think the people who really seem offended by his comments, instead of thinking, "well he has a point" are the ones that deep down realize they are exaclty what he claims they are. Those who are just using the morbid funny on the other hand, are not like that...

/it's a disco inferno!

Finnley Wren: Can't speak for other Farkers, but only say for myself that I find it amusing to have brickbats hurled at the U.S. from the onetime capital of Nazi Germany, that's all.

so do you turn into a self rightious patriot when people bring up the genoecide commited by the US govt against the indiginious people of N. America?

/jez askin

2006-11-14 09:20:17 AM Oscar_Madisons_cleaning_lady


The way in which he retired is also impressive.

He didn't retire.....he was fired.

Cleaning Lady, Need your address so I can send you the bill for a keyboard.

Tatsuma

I was also an admirer of Mike_71. I noticed he quit posting, under that moniker at least, when he started bragging about how messy his sheets got when he was banging his wife. Instead immolating, I guess he liquidated himself.

"Does living in Germany, an intelligent and progressive society, make me a Nazi?"

Germany is far from "progressive" and compassionate. They loathe and despise their handicapped, not exactly the earmark of the society you claim is better than the one we have in America. I have an American friend that is living in Germany and has a daughter that was born with a large birthmark on her face and he is disgusted at how stigmatized she is by both her German schoolmates and the non-related adults around her. He would take her to America in a heartbeat but he is no longer married to her mother and has absolutely no rights to her.

Skeezmo: THE WHOLE FUCING WORLD is far from "progressive" and compassionate.

fixed
no charge
;o)

wcuservo: A man, desperate to voice his beliefs, pouring gasoline over himself and dying in a very slow and painful death is tragic as well

No, the only thing "tragic" here is that millions of people who are dying, suffering, paralyzed, all these people want to live, would love nothing more than exchange their plight for that man who was perfectly healthy, yet that self-absorbed coont decided to kill himself trying to make a point that completely failed and will affect nothing

Was it an important act of political protest, or the tragic end of a mentally ill person?

You have to ask?!

MWeather
Nonviolence is not simply an oath not to hurt others. King saw that in order to advance as a society, humanity has to stop including violence in its conflict resolution completely. At least with each other. The concept of the one race that matters having supremecy. The human race. Well, that's not really possible in a world where every industrialized nation has an army, but we can plant the seeds so that our children might see it. As it stands we're just digging a hole for them.

bake420: so do you turn into a self rightious patriot when people bring up the genoecide commited by the US govt against the indiginious people of N. America?

My own ancestors were being killed and opressed by Cromwell at the time, our family homes and lands were burned and then siezed by English nobility, so I can't help ya there.

/where's my reparations?

I am sorry for a lot of things surrounding this guy's death. I'm mostly sorry for the guy who lost his dad and the grandchildren who never really knew their grandfather. I'm sorry that this war pushed him to this.

Perhaps there's little sympathy because we don't consider ourselves to be anything less than good. The regime where the monk died is different in that respect. The people who lived there and the international community were together in viewing the government that way. Not all Americans are like this however. Quite a few people here have not laughed at him.

It's hard to live in a country and view it as having bad policies. We are the country that sings "land of the free" every year, when all of our people weren't free for over 100 years after the war that supposedly won us liberty. What this might do is make a lot of people who want to blind themselves to whatever happens here- but they don't extend the same feelings towards what happens in regimes that are viewed as barbaric. But a great many Americans throughout history (of every ethnic background) to today have always fought to make it right here- don't write them off.

Also, the monk lived a live of (dugh) monasticism, but this guy seemed to be a runaway from a family and a typical life. He was a saint to the jazz community and its fans (who are arguably part of the community as well), but how was he to anyone else? If he were a monk as well, how would we have considered this? In his own way, maybe he was a monk. what he did for the jazz community could be interpreted as a brand of monasticism- if jazz is his religion.

How does the international community view his death? Will it become as symbolic of the times for the international community as the monk photo was to us?

Finnley Wren: /where's my reparations?

get in line biatch!!!
blacks and japs first

where's mine, i was born to a shiattay lot in life also

bake420: fixed?!?!

There are many. We have doctors, we have soldiers, we have world experts on quazars., we have many types of people who matter and help society

"Avant-Garde Jazz Geek" is not useful to society.

Sunny Ray: I was also an admirer of Mike_71. I noticed he quit posting, under that moniker at least, when he started bragging about how messy his sheets got when he was banging his wife. Instead immolating, I guess he liquidated himself.

It must be hard to own your own construction company, to be a dj, to be a voice-over artist and reading the Kyoto Protocol all in a week's work.

I guess that's why he was banging his trophy wife AND posted ads searching for a woman. He needed to even the work load

Finnley, that's just confused. If anything, the population of Europe is more qualified than most to talk about war, and genocide, and know what it actually means. Germany has faced up to its past honestly. The intellectual culture in Europe, based on bitter experience, has got something to add to this debate, not that the US seems to care - too busy repeating the mistakes of the past.

MWeather got it bang on (see his post)

Anyway. Nazi Germany is the past. US foreign policy is NOW.

(And no - I'm not saying they're equivalent)

The guy's website:

http://www.savagesound.com/

He was a friend of an old friend of mine.

Tatsuma: yet that self-absorbed coont decided to kill himself trying to make a point that completely failed and will affect nothing


i wish i knew the jewish religion better....is there any story in the "book of jews" about self sacrifice?

a for real question, perhaps not eloquent
hell, it is brash

platypusjones: with re: to above, we'll have to disagree, since i am saying that all actions don't have to be useful. however, the significance of this particular act is precisely in it's un-usefulness. if we believe the article, the guy tried protesting for a while, to what he perceived to be no avail. so he shows the futility by saying "this is useless". that's the internal logic.

Yeah, but it's still a completely dumb train of thoughts.

"Hey, I'm doing things and it's not affecting anything, let's kill myself and stop affecting things altogether!"

"I'm sorry that this war pushed him to this."

Give me a goddamned break...sheesh. He's responsible for the stupid and selfish decision he made. I know it's popular to blame everybody but yourself for your problems, but the war didn't "push" this guy to do anything.

bake420: i wish i knew the jewish religion better....is there any story in the "book of jews" about self sacrifice?

What he did was not self-sacrifice. What he did was suicide.

Tatsuma: "Avant-Garde Jazz Geek" is not useful to TATSUMA

does anyone use "I" statements, or does everyone think they speak for all humanity????

fark you golo606 you farking nazi fark.
Go gas a jew for tatsuma why don't you?
Fark you to hell.
Compassion.
Yeah, we need more farking germans telling us about compassion.

Isn't it about time for you guys to decide to take over Europe again, smartass?
So we can hand your ass to you a third time?

Fark you.

So this tard burned himself. Great. Fark him.

And fark you too.

Bulf: I'm sorry that this war pushed him to this.

Oh for fark's sake. The war didn't push him to this, he pushed himself to this. He was probably suicidal to begin with. Or mentally ill. I'd go for the latter, he was an avant-garde jazz geek, after all.

Personal Responsabilities. The guy's fault. Nothing to cry about, except for his family and those who knew him

Tatsuma: What he did was not self-sacrifice. What he did was suicide.


well, i think the "no killing" note would say that it was at the minimum, BOTH

2006-11-14 09:37:16 AM Tatsuma [TotalFark]

Wow, your arrogance reaches a new level. I am thinking you are less useful to society than any jazz geek I have ever met.....

golo606:

Finnley, that's just confused.

What is?

If anything, the population of Europe is more qualified than most to talk about war, and genocide, and know what it actually means.

The entire population of Europe would have fallen underneath Stalin's boot if not for U.S. Foreign Policy and the hundreds of thousands of American troops stationed there for fifty years. You're welcome.

Germany has faced up to its past honestly.

I see a lot of skinhead activity goin on there and lots of continued pro-Nazi activity. Am I wrong?

The intellectual culture in Europe, based on bitter experience, has got something to add to this debate, not that the US seems to care - too busy repeating the mistakes of the past.

There would be no "intellectual culture of Europe" if it weren't for the U.S.

Again, you're welcome.

This thread is worthless without the video.