07-17-02 05:32:38 PM Sihaya
that's just double-ungood. pardon me, i need to go drink some victory gin before the two minute hate. down with eastasia

/end 1984 sarcasm

Very nice Sihaya... down with Eurasia!

07-17-02 05:32:38 PM Sihaya
that's just double-ungood. pardon me, i need to go drink some victory gin before the two minute hate. down with Eurasia

/end 1984 sarcasm

Very nice Sihaya... down with Eurasia!

Doublepost? Doubleplus UNGOOD!!!! ;-)

This has nothing to do with communism or socialism or capitalism. This has to do with tyranny. Tyranny can happen right here, in a free-market society. Tyranny is ushered in by fools wishing to protect society. In truth, these fools are far more dangerous to our society than any number of terrorists.

Ivan: Yes! To add to that, the second way tyranny is ushered in is in people trying to wrongly protect a status quo that should not be protected, and people trying to absolutely stop progress of any kind. Just ask Poland, whose people to this day very wrongly have a bad rap, just because their aristocrats wanted to hold all property and not give even an inch to the very people working it; they allowed the country to be split up and vanquished from the map and then overrun by Nazis and Bolsheviks rather than give a peasant a farm. The harder something quite natural such as personal liberty tries to come forward the more tyrants try to push it down.

Who says I "think the government is out to get me"?

I just strongly object to having my property taken from me by force, and I object to seeing the property of others taken by force as well.

It's kind of a "radical" notion, I know, but I'm one of those bizarre people that believes that you shouldn't take what does not belong to you.

You, on the other hand, are apparently firmly in the "might makes right" camp, so you just continue going ahead, taking what does not belong to you, and spending it on crap that benefits everyone else.

Did it even once occur to you that maybe people would be better off if they were allowed to keep what belonged to them to begin with, to decide how to spend it for themselves?

No... instead you would prefer to do the same as everyone else in politics, which is to use the government as a means to push your morals on everyone else.

Sorry, but if "Common Sense" == "Delusional Paranoia" then call me paranoid. You apparently know nothing about the concepts of freedom that this country was founded upon, the idea of freedom and individual responsibility.

The government is supposed to protect individual rights.

It is not there to take care of every single one of us, and it is certainly not there to be used as a big, expensive tool with with to propagate your morals.

If we could just get a few philosopher-kings together... this would all just be fine and dandy!

So, as I suggested before, Pigeonstopper, I advise you to go do some reading, starting with the US Constitution, followed by a healthy dose of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and a little Heinlein thrown in for fun ("The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is truly one of the best novels of any genre, of the 20th century).

It is obvious that none of you share the Glorious Vision of The New America as envisioned by our Benevolent Overseers...

It's a shame...

For the good of all Americans who appreciate the blessings and Manna of our benefactors, and to the distain of those who would not pledge all life, liberty, limb, kin, and property to those who would protect us...

You are not Worthy of seeing the "Promised Land" and will be discreetly removed from society so that your wealth and property can be used in the construction of the
Glorious
Tipper's - 1000 Year - 5th Reich.

We shall all march in the streets waving
banners proclaiming:

TIPPER REICHS !

And All Will Be Well In The World.

Anybody read "The Crucible"?

Madison is my favorite Founding Father.

Mine was Paine. He was quite the rabblerouser and a bloody good thinker in his own right.

Yeah, it was a pretty crappy play.

I liked Paine the best, too, Demosthenes. He was one of the few to actually mean what he said, including being against the slave trade. He is my personal hero, held his own among men rich, more educated, and better connected than himself. He considered himself a world citizen more than an American, or a Founding Father, though.

freedom is slavery

ignorance is knowledge

bush is a nazi pig

VOTE LIBERTARIAN - PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS

I just finished reading Starship Troopers. Surprised me, Robert Heinlein is awesome.

Demosthenes>Socialists

Et tu, Urbn? ;-)

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." -- Thomas Paine


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." -- Thomas Paine

My favorite Paine quote is in my bio.

Although, for all you Libertarians (which I am closer to than any other party these days), Paine still was in support of strong central government over provincial government and very much liked the idea of education for all, although, I'm still not clear on how he thought that education should be paid for.

Jefferson was the same way (regarding education), and like Paine, he was never too specific about how it should be paid for as well, though he was heavily opposed to federalizing it (which is the path we are heading directly down today).

07-17-02 08:00:17 PM Urbn
My favorite Paine quote is in my bio.

And a fine one that is....

Ya, if we keep public education, it definitely needs to be held by the state. It just gets too complex and the teachers don't even know what they should be teaching any more. It's a mess. And we wonder why kids are confused or not learning.

Why thank you, Demos :)

It's good to see that there are people out there who think like me at times. Gives me hope that I'm not the only one still trying to forge ahead.

Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Kaffee! Man, who made that Photoshop of Hitler with the Starbucks emblem on his sleeve? It was great!

Seriously, though, I think that this "spy on your neighbor" crap needs to be halted NOW.

TIPS is for dips!

I think that the percentage of people that tentatively agree with the Libertarian Party's principles shrunk a good bit when Enron flopped. It then shrunk by an order of magnitude after the WorldCom debacle. As of last week, it's probably around 0.25% or so.

It's rather embarrassing when we have to be tipped (Bennett Cerf alert) to this by a yellow newspaper from Australia. At least the media is now picking up on this and in all likelihood this'll be shot down in 48 hours or so.

Urbn: Don't mention it!

BTW, there are a number of us that frequent the forum of the website mentioned in my bio; more are always welcome. Same goes for you, Ivan. :-)

ARMY

Ah, but look at why "the projects" became "THE PROJECTS"...

In Chicago, as an example, Daley the elder used them and the Dan Ryan Expressway as a way to stop Black Chicagoans from moving into until then ethnic White communities.

He also worked to concentrate the poor, recently immigrated Black population in these projects so that they could be controlled by the Black machine politicians, essentially by Uncle Toms. Proposals for more scattered site housing were in play, but Daley aced out everyone else to reward the black leaders who would side with him.

Public housing is not inherently evil. Private housing with minimal controls (i.e. sanitation code, building code, etc...) is far preferable.

It could have worked, but in most cities it lost out to race politics.

I think that the percentage of people that tentatively agree with the Libertarian Party's principles shrunk a good bit when Enron flopped. It then shrunk by an order of magnitude after the WorldCom debacle. As of last week, it's probably around 0.25% or so.

Particularly sad, considering that both Enron and WorldCom had little to do with the free market, and much to do with the misconduct of individuals, and a well-greased government machine not holding them accountable for their actions way back when the damage could have been minimized.

Part of libertarianism that people conveniently ignore is actually an integral part of the Party's slogan:

"Individual liberty and personal responsibility on all issues, at all times."

It's that "personal responsibility" part that many don't like. It means that even if you are a CEO, and you behave unethically, you are to be held responsible for the results of that behavior.

Today's politics is more interested in milking companies like that for all they're worth, financially, and then turning on them when it all comes to light, saying "shame shame!" and distancing them from the corruption like rats from a sinking ship.

Anything to stay firmly attached to that bloated, government teat.

Come 2004 I'm probably voting Libertarian.I was thinking of Green last election(had work,was unable to vote).I will not vote for the major "hydra" party(the Republicrats)the way they're acting right now.Both just seem most interested in tossing dog biscuits to whoever will keep them in power and allow them to mold the country to their warped vision.

And Greens and Libertarians need to not bicker.They must compromise.Major 3rd party fighting is what the Hydra loves most to see.

The answers are right in front of you all!

It all goes back to the Bay of Pigs invasion, where George Bush Sr. financed two boats, the "Barbara" and the "Houston" to carry the ill-fated troops over. The implications are staggering!

Black helicopters are mutilating cattle in the name of a one-world police force that will round us all up like those self-same cattle! Especially the people reading my words now! You'll all be first up against the wall when the revolution comes!

72 people are running the show! Fear the number 23! ELVIS IS NOT DEAD! He's running the CIA from behind the scenes...has been ever since Nixon gave him a badge!

The New World Order! The New World Order! My coffee is spying on me! It's a mind-control drug created by the CIA, right beside LSD! The earth is a farm! We are someone else's property!!!

Et in Arcadia Ego! Urrrrgggg........

{This is Torchsong's nurse. He was reading the Big Book of Conspiracies late last night and forgot his medication. I'm really sorry for the disturbance. There's nothing to worry about. Go back to sleep, America. Sleep. Sleeeep)

Compromise is what led us to this predicament.

Our leaders throughout the last century have compromised our rights.

They have compromised our freedoms.

They have compromised their ethics.

They have compromised their principles.

They have compromised our integrity as a sovereign nation.

They have compromised our Constitution.

They have compromised our future.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not particularly interested in further compromise. I am interested in freedom and responsibility and accountability. If a political candidate cannot offer me that, then they get no vote from me.

Demosthenes: "Socialism is the use of force to redistribute wealth. Where it is practiced is irrelevent. It is government using force against its own people for the "good of the whole". The role of government should be to protect people, not steal from them."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I'm two hours late and I'm sure that comment's been beaten to death, but really...oh dear.

"should be"...if wishes were horses, indeed. Are they accepting applications on your island? I'm going to be job-hunting soon, and I've always wanted to live in a perfect world.

Gloomcookie, that sounds like you have the perfect cop-out to continue to defend the status-quo, the old apathy approach. You know, the "well, there's nothing we can do about it, so why should we even try?" ideal.

I might be an idealist, and I might value principle before practicality, but at least I'm trying. All you're doing is sitting there.

...and now I've got to go and put my foot in mouth, because I applaud your last post. Apologies.

Noted.

"Right-wing commentator thinks Bush citizen spy plan stinks of Nazism."

...that's because it does.

This is just the neighborhood crime watch, on a national scale, (with a 25 milliom dollar reward.) It is a good program and millions will participate, despite the ACLU.

Obviously I stopped at one point in the thread to add my clever comments, and skipped over two hours of discussion. I don't usually do that, but... Truth is I am an idealist, of the "should be" school, and it is frustrating. Christ, I voted for Nader, what does that tell you? It's not that I approve of the status qou, or am apathetic; I just don't know what to do.

Demosthenes
I am not interested in compromise... (blah blah blah)

Then you'll never get anything done, toots.

I understand that "no compromise" thing has worked really well for the Israelis and Palestinians, so far.

It is a good program and millions will participate, despite the ACLU.

Yes. And that is precisely the problem.

Sorry, but it's going to happen. People call in crime tips all the time. Quit crying about it.

Nightsweat: And look how well that "compromise" thing has worked for us here. It's gotten plenty of things "done". And that's the problem.

It's the nature of the compromise, innit? Surprisingly, ethics and religion don't always match up. Add politics and human nature...

Exactly, elevation. People already do it all the time. Why this new government-sponsored screw-your-neighbor dealie?

gloomcookie- that's the main reason I hate nader. I think that he has some good points and some not so good points, but he has shown time and again he proves more about 'making a point' than he does the american people, and that he is quite full of himself as well.

he actually claimed that, were he president, bin laden would not have attacked the US.

he also KNEW what bush/ashcroft stood for, had the gall to call the Bush/ashcroft platform equivalent to that of Gore/Lieberman, and he showed he didn't care even further by refusing to encourage (in a very tight race) for people to vote for the lesser of the two perceived evils. for that I will never vote for him.

I save my votes for the best candidate that could win, rather than weaken both decent candidates while strengthening the negligent idiotic horror.

Well said, Ivan.

Noted and appreciated. And I'm a 'she'. Nice to meet you.