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(Scotsman)   The war in Iraq is not a disaster, but the beginning of the fulfilment of biblical prophecies that culminate, possibly very soon, in a mighty struggle between good and evil at Armageddon. Here comes the science   (news.scotsman.com) divider line 301
    More: Unlikely  
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14050 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2006 at 6:10 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-10-30 09:11:59 AM
sight! I meant no end in sight!

*hands in Spelling Nazi armband, ruefully adjusts to civilian life*
 
2006-10-30 09:12:19 AM
The Republicans are the acknowledged party of prayer and morality

Water-boarding /= morality.
AbuGarib /= morality.
Abramhoff/Cunningham/Delay/Foley /= morality.

Try again.

Anyway, my post was more global in nature

Giving weapons and training to the Taliban and the Middle East aren't global?You're not even trying to make sense.
 
2006-10-30 09:12:48 AM
czarangelus

Drasancas: And we've replaced that with 30k civilian deaths in an outright war in Iraq.

Or 650,000, depending which media-fed reality you're buying into today.


Where should we get our information?

In the end, "the media" is simply other people who go seek out information to present to us.

Unless ~7billion people go visit Iraq to count bodies, you gotta get your information from someone.

But the lovely part about the Internet is the ability to verify from different sources and gather evidence.
 
2006-10-30 09:13:10 AM
2006-10-30 08:05:28 AM SherKhan

Hardly surprising that those who buck and prick in resentment at the often disquieting questions and answers that modern science presents, that those who either through inclination or indoctrination prefer to serve the veiled interests of an unaccountable figurehead vested with the powers of life and death, that those who long for an actual fraking end to the world, that these are Bush's most hardened and ardent supporters. To them, Bush really is their godsend.

Keep this in mind my faith-fevered brethren: Satan is also the handiwork of your God.


Truer words were never spoken. Now go love one another.
 
2006-10-30 09:13:40 AM
This is lame. You kiddies are just going to repeat what your TV tells you to think - you've established that in spades.

My original assertion stands, stronger than ever - you mental midgets ignore reality and endlessly quote the talking heads who reinforce your prejudices. 'Cause yeah - Iraq is a theocracy (among other nitwit comments).

/got better things to do
 
2006-10-30 09:15:23 AM
enforced democracy is not very democratic

*runs
 
2006-10-30 09:16:02 AM
Those who chose to believe in the teaching of the bible have made a decision to believe. Those who chose not to believe have made the same decision. At the very least Blaise Pascal made the best sense of it - for a while, the debate still continues on that level.

Are you referring to Pascal's Wager, which is a false dichotomy fallacy?
 
2006-10-30 09:16:23 AM
bjforme

This is lame. You kiddies are just going to repeat what your TV tells you to think - you've established that in spades.

My original assertion stands, stronger than ever - you mental midgets ignore reality and endlessly quote the talking heads who reinforce your prejudices. 'Cause yeah - Iraq is a theocracy (among other nitwit comments).


You still havent cited where you get your information.
 
2006-10-30 09:16:57 AM
bjforme: Police all over the world kick down doors to get the bad guys.

The difference is, they have a warrant. You really don't have a good handle on the precepts of a democracy, do you? This is just sad. I hope you're just a government paid shill rather than actually a soldier in Iraq... I would be very disappointed to learn that serving US troops have such a pathetic understanding of the democratic principles of the United States.

As for the "torture" thing, that's just tired, baseless Democrat propoganda.

Right, except for where the Vice President of the United States gets on TV and starts talking about specific ways in which we torture people. And you'd better believe that what we do is at least 3 times as bad as what we admit we do.

And things are better since Saddam went to jail. Know why? 'Cause Saddam was a bad, bad man who hurt people.

Uh.... I'm a logician, and I think it's fair to say this is a total non-sequitur. One thing does not imply the other.

And the insurgents don't "rebel" against anything. They are just bloodthirsty thugs who want to grab power for themselves.

They are rebels defending their country against a foreign invader. If Chinese troops landed in my county today, you'd better goddamn well believe I'd be setting bombs everywhere. I wouldn't care that the Chinese media or soldiers called me a "terrorist." I would fight for my country against ANY foreign soldiers. Iraqis are simply just as patriotic.
 
2006-10-30 09:17:22 AM
/got better things to do

translation: got nothing.
 
2006-10-30 09:17:55 AM
2006-10-30 08:47:14 AM SteakMan


"Fully one quarter of Americans describe themselves as Evangelical Christians, and their support for the president remains rock solid."

What? No one has questioned those stats yet?

/yous guys is slakin'


The actual number hovers around 28%. Bush was smart enough to tap into them and win the:

Presidency
Governorships
Congress
Senate

You guys keep spewing your shiat. Bush and company will just keep winning at EVERY LEVEL, except the intellectial one.

/wait...that tricky bastard!!!!
 
2006-10-30 09:19:24 AM
"AbuGarib /= morality."

Oooo - you said it! Abu Gharaib was a tragedy, right? A HORROR!! OMFG how could this happen?!

Ok, now, you good little brainwashed minion, you, let me ask - when did you decide that Abu Gharaib was a house of horrors?

- When Saddam's thugs:
- raped
- murdered
- built a mass grave inside the farking walls of the place
- rounded up a few thousand Kuwaiti politicians, school teachers, policemen, etc and executed every last one of them there

- Or when a handful of American jerkoffs made someone stand on a box with a bag on their head?

And no, that wasn't acceptable and said jerkoffs went to jail. But when, oh decreer of morality, when did you become ENRAGED about Abu Gharaib?
...perhaps when a talking head on your talking box TOLD you to?

/like the "talking points"? Easier that way, eh?
 
2006-10-30 09:20:29 AM
Lord_Baull

FYI, humans are fallible. Again with the list of specific people/things that have fallen. Please, keep a similar lists of the failings of all God's people. It would cloak your radical left-wing bias and give you more crediblity. I bet you there were more Republicans worshipping Jesus yesterday than Democrats. It just seeems like the Religious people want to kill the Terrorists more than the pagans and the atheists do. That is a good thing.
 
2006-10-30 09:21:19 AM
"Bush and company will just keep winning at EVERY LEVEL,"

...'cause the Dems are too stupid to breathe and keep putting up candidates that can't even beat Bush. To their credit, the American people didn't fall for Kerry the Traitor.

/Hillary in '08
//'cause repeating history is fun
 
2006-10-30 09:21:34 AM
bjforme

Still waiting for you to tell us where you get your information.
 
2006-10-30 09:22:11 AM
bjforme: And no, that wasn't acceptable and said jerkoffs went to jail. But when, oh decreer of morality, when did you become ENRAGED about Abu Gharaib?
...perhaps when a talking head on your talking box TOLD you to?


When did you decide that Iraq needed "liberating?" When a talking box TOLD you? I'm sure you aren't a scholar of Middle East politics or history, so I think it's a good bet to say yes.
 
2006-10-30 09:22:40 AM
Now, FarkLark, I don't know why you put 'fundie' in quotation marks, because I didn't say that anywhere in my post. I'd only call you a fundamentalist if you believed the Bible was the literal truth. Do you think the bible is literally true?

Now read my post again. You'll note that I simply said that the people referred to in the article aren't "worldly", as you put it. In your post addressed to me, it appears that you agree with this:

On the other hand...there are people who are lost in this world. They have no direction and look to others for their opinion. They choose to let others think for them.

Here's my position:

Anyone who refers to, or follows anyone who refers to, Arabs and Russians as 'evil', is not worldly. In fact, calling someone 'evil' at all is a good sign that someone isn't wordly.

Anyone who openly advocates that the world was created in 6000 years and evolution never occured (a loud mouthed fundamentalist that is) is not worldly.

I would hesitate at calling a quiet fundamentalist "wordly".

I'll agree, however, that it's possible to be 'worldly' and a regular church-goer at the same time.
 
2006-10-30 09:23:02 AM
czarangelus, I already shot down your lame-ass arguements. You really don't need to try to re-state them.

/thirsty? Just go lift that shiny handle and get all the clean, cold water you want
 
2006-10-30 09:25:35 AM
Keep this in mind my faith-fevered brethren: Satan is also the handiwork of your God.

Needs to be repeated...
 
2006-10-30 09:26:20 AM
"enforced democracy is not very democratic"

No one was forced to vote. They came out in droves because they wanted to, and FINALLY got the chance. Thank you, our UN saviors!!

...oh, wait, no, the UN was nowhere to be found. Neither were Democrats, since they don't join the military. Dems only serve themselves.

/donuts - have more donuts.
 
2006-10-30 09:26:20 AM
Well, it's easy enough for the believers. They destroy the world, and whadayaknow......Armegeddon.

Seems like they are determined to fulfill the prophesy of some ancient asshole. Self-fulfill that is.
 
2006-10-30 09:27:17 AM
bjforme: , I already shot down your lame-ass arguements. You really don't need to try to re-state them.

No, you didn't. That's just the point. In democracies, law enforcement needs a warrant to kick down someone's door, roust them out of bed, and search their house. In military dictatorships, the military pretty much has free reign. Which of these sets of policies really characterizes the way our soldiers treat Iraqis?

You know what? I'll flat out tell you that I'm rooting for the rebels. If I had to deal with foreign troops who don't speak my language, think I'm an uneducated monkey, shoot my relatives, ferment civil war, set up demeaning checkpoints all over the country, insult human dignity with their propaganda, break down doors without need for reason or explanation, fund and support a corrupt Vichy government hiding behind a giant wall in Baghdad... well.
 
2006-10-30 09:27:59 AM
"When did you decide that Iraq needed "liberating?"

When Saddam killed his, oh, let's say his millionth person, since we don't really know how many died at his hands. Or maybe when the UN killed their 500,000th child. You know, that sort of thing.

/screw 'em, right? They're just BROWN PEOPLE.
 
2006-10-30 09:28:31 AM
Fundamentalist Christianity, Islam = suicidal insanity

/atheist
 
2006-10-30 09:29:12 AM
"think I'm an uneducated monkey"

Well hell, czarangelus, I think you're an uneducated monkey! Does that mean you'll root for me, too?

/whee
 
2006-10-30 09:29:19 AM
bjforme

You afraid to tell us where you get your information?
 
2006-10-30 09:30:03 AM
bjforme is clearly trolling. Nobody who's been here since last year could say [the Democrats] don't join the military. Dems only serve themselves., that comparison of Democrats and Republicans having been posted so many times.
 
2006-10-30 09:30:38 AM
My wife and I were recovering from our Halloween party and were flipping through the channels, and came upon a televised megachurch service from John "Move the Jews to Israel to get smote" Hagee. Behind him was a banner about demons and his talking points about how to protect yourself from them.

The preacher was praying for protection from Satan. One of the things he wanted protection from? "Intellectualism."

Seriously.

The best part is that you had the entire frakking congregation standing there with their eyes shut as tightly as possible as if to say "Nonono! I will not believe my eyes." The only thing that would make it better would be if they had their hands clamped over their ears.

Out of morbid curiousity, we kept watching. The rest of the prayer was mostly about how the people hearing the prayer were separate and better than others. He used the words "abortionist" and "evolutionist" and "homosexual agenda" hitting all the bullet points to get the congregation frothing at the mouth and cheering and clapping.

We couldn't stand it anymore, so we changed the channel. We came across a Baptist service at a black church. The pastor was offering the opening prayer. It was about deriving personal strength from God to help get you through life's problems. He said we need to love ourselves and respect ourselves and love our brothers and siters and respect our brothers and sisters and use God to find strength and mercy and compassion. The congregation was jumping and cheering and clapping. Just like the first one.

If I live to be 100, I'll never see a better example of religion being used for evil (John Hagee) and religion being used for good.
 
2006-10-30 09:30:48 AM
You all are wrong and you know it, you just can't get past your prejudices.

/best of luck with that
//gotta get to work
 
2006-10-30 09:32:29 AM
bjforme: You all are wrong and you know it, you just can't get past your prejudices.

You're projecting again. Try as hard as you can, but you'll never escape the cognitive dissonance... even if it takes a dozen lifetimes, it'll catch up to you every time.
 
2006-10-30 09:33:08 AM
Mitch J, actually, I can say it. I can say it 'cause I speak from direct experience.

There are no Democrats in the military. They apparently are all at home, turning into enormous food blisters with boxes of donuts, living simple lives in safety and comfort.

/how nice
//oh, and biatching about everything
 
2006-10-30 09:34:12 AM
I do not believe a good and just God/spirit/fsm/buddah/allah/jehovah/etc... would claim that we could acheive enlightenment through acts of violence.

I truly feel for the people that crave "end of times" I personally think you have all been fooled by a darker force.

/Religion is a man-made thing
//you have your belief and I have mine....
 
2006-10-30 09:34:22 AM
superdolfan1

The exact same statement can be said by the believers about the non-believers. Reason, evidence, and logic are all relative. What you may perceive as evidence and logical may differ from what someone else perceives.

You're kidding, right?
 
2006-10-30 09:34:48 AM
"Left Behind", the video game:
www.aeropause.com

"Left Behind", the board game:
68.178.160.145

Yep, that's the kind of insanity that exists in some people's minds, today...
 
2006-10-30 09:34:49 AM
bjforme
You all are wrong and you know it, you just can't get past your prejudices.

I might be wrong. However, I think my opinions are well-informed and well-reasoned, which is why I have them.

The person I fear the most is the one who says he is infallible.
 
2006-10-30 09:35:48 AM
bjforme is trolling hard and you're all eating it up like buttery pound cake. :(
 
2006-10-30 09:37:18 AM
Senophitem: bjforme is trolling hard and you're all eating it up like buttery pound cake. :(

Even if he's trolling, the position he's characterizing is common enough that it probably requires refutation anyway. Somebody is still reading this thread cheering him on even if he is just a troll. So I'll introduce this information for the great silent majority of imbeciles.
 
2006-10-30 09:38:03 AM
What I love about these threads is that the problems we never talked about and solutions are never put together because everyone is to busy biatching about their own problems. Why after 150+ posts no one has talked about the real issue not the anti-religion flak trying to mislead people to making them think the issue is "religion is bad" when it reality it isn't.
/sigh
//I cry for a society that will trip on itself so much it will fall.
 
2006-10-30 09:38:28 AM
pounddawg: I truly feel for the people that crave "end of times" I personally think you have all been fooled by a darker force.

The only 2000+ year old book I read consistently has this to say about that:

"All war is based on deception."
 
2006-10-30 09:39:23 AM
Eh, I'm getting in this late, but that's because I slept in. Apologies for the length of reply, I'm a white male and I like to see my thoughts on a page- it's not a new trend.

Evangelicals are an incredibly diverse group compared to how the media represents them. The church spoken of in this article is a fundamentalist church.

Steakman: if we're talking self-identification, then yes, 1/4 of the country says they're a Christian... perhaps not specifically an evangelical. What they actually do is a difference.

The thing is, the brand of Christianity (and I would say brand is the appropriate word, as it is marketed and sold) that is represented by Hagee and those like him is very difficult to attribute to Christian thought. Being "born again" in the American sense is nowhere to be seen in the Bible. Neither is "god hates fags" (or even "god hates") or "god bless america" or any of those buzzwords. In fact, the overwhelming call to Christians in the political world is to act as 'resident aliens' in a foreign land- in other words, tread lightly, and don't try to run the place.

A note about relativism: Nothing makes sense to this brand of right wing fundamentalist except the tripe that got them to join the church in the first place. They have not rejected the "truths" of other people, but rejected logical truth itself in favor of half-truths that fit a worldview that feels "right" and "God ordaned". It's very cult-like. There is however, logical truth claims that can be made about religious thought, in terms of properly historically identifying scripture and using basic logic in decision making and in religious belief claims. Generally speaking, the social science literature tells us, "literal" interpretation simply means "what I feel like hearing right now." That's where this belief system starts being about American Republicans, and departs from Christianity. It's a frikkin cult.

There is a difference between religious movements started by faith convictions and deep belief, and those started by people with a personal agenda. The religious right represents one group that was started by, literally, a bunch of rich church leaders who were tired of the church always siding with the democrats... and their first act as a coalesced group was to defend the right for Bob Jones University to remain a racist and sexist institution in the 70's (want to know more? read Randall Balmer's books). That fails to explain why any non-white or non-male would want to attend Bob Jones.

So, here's my point- these people don't define evangelicals, evangelical belief can be considerably more intelligent than this (heck, flying sphagettimonsterism makes more sense to me than fundamentalism), and protecting people's ideas based on good 'ol fashioned relativism is a dangerous practice when the people in question are being led by a group of rich white men whose main goal is to bring the cold war back, however possible. If they claim to believe the Bible as "truth," and they claim to follow Jesus, then there are numerous things that they must answer to.
 
2006-10-30 09:40:08 AM
bjforme: Specifically, how do you suggest we "win" in Iraq? The Iraqi population has consistently polled a majority saying they want us gone ASAP, and that majority keeps growing. The violence is escalating rather than diminishing. We still haven't reached pre-war levels of basic utilities or jobs. We've far exceeded pre-war levels torture and death.

So enough shiat talk. What's your plan, man? C'mon, lay it out for all of us "brainwashed minions".
 
2006-10-30 09:41:01 AM
Put simply, the experimenters concluded that human beings, when asked to lie without being given sufficient justification, will convince themselves that the lie they are asked to tell is the truth.
 
2006-10-30 09:41:29 AM
Thisbymaster
What I love about these threads is that the problems we never talked about and solutions are never put together because everyone is to busy biatching about their own problems. Why after 150+ posts no one has talked about the real issue not the anti-religion flak trying to mislead people to making them think the issue is "religion is bad" when it reality it isn't.

Religion is like a knife. You can kill with it, or you can cook with it. In and of itself, it is neutral. It is what people use it for that makes it good or bad.

Also, what is the real issue. The issue, as I see it, is that there are people out there who are trying to bring about the Apocalypse and hurting a lot of innocent people in the process. And any reasonable person can see that they are horrible for doing so.
 
2006-10-30 09:41:34 AM
Saddam is/was EVIL!
Rummy should have sucker punched him when he was shaking his hand!
 
2006-10-30 09:42:41 AM
The Icelander, I save my real arguments for people that I respect, and I can't manage to drum up any respect for Dems. When I think of them, I think of the lovely ladies outside Walter Reed Army hospital who like to torment the wounded soldiers inside with signs like, "YOU WERE MAIMED FOR A LIE".

Real sweethearts. Also intellectually lazy, hate-filled TV-repeating devices who live simple lives of self-service and absolute belief in their own...

....infallibility.

/Democrats in a nutshell
 
2006-10-30 09:42:59 AM
Dorf11 --- which book is that??

Just asking cause your statement is correct.

War is about people in power keeping their power.
Divide and Conquer
 
2006-10-30 09:43:24 AM
czarangelus: Even if he's trolling, the position he's characterizing is common enough that it probably requires refutation anyway. Somebody is still reading this thread cheering him on even if he is just a troll. So I'll introduce this information for the great silent majority of imbeciles.

The truth of the matter is that whether or not he is actually trolling, it's pretty obvious that he's got an air-tight defense of acting smug and disputing everything being said. Any evidence, philosophical argument, or razor-sharp jab with a funny stick will be met with the same end.

The best way to counter this is to simply ignore him, because whether he is serious or not, fanning the flames by even acknowledging his ridiculous position makes them seem more important than they actually are.

If you really want to dispute the position in a way that's productive, choose an opponent who doesn't wear a crash helmet to bed.
 
2006-10-30 09:46:12 AM
Senophitem: The best way to counter this is to simply ignore him, because whether he is serious or not, fanning the flames by even acknowledging his ridiculous position makes them seem more important than they actually are.

I perceive my actions instead as making patent His Majesty's nudity.
 
2006-10-30 09:48:27 AM
Well, first of all, someone has to stand up to nonsense like, "We've far exceeded pre-war levels torture and death.", which flies in the face of reality. The level of self-delusion necessary to make such a statement is truly scary.

And yeah; we should leave. The Catch-22 is that we can't until the Iraqis can defend their own government. The fighting has had the effect of filtering out the hard-core Iraqi patriots from the opportunists and slackers who started out filling the police ranks. The guys they've got nowadays are tough (for the most part). They want us out too, and they're the ones that will get their wish granted. Not the terroristic, random murderers who want us out so that they can take over.

There's nothing fancy about it. We prop up the good guys, beat down the bad guys, and get the hell out of the way at the first opportunity.

Funny thing, too - that's what we're doing.

/gee
//go figure
///sorry if its not "sophisticated" enough for you. Eat another donut and you'll feel better
 
2006-10-30 09:48:36 AM
Iraq was a democracy before we liberated them anyways. It just so happens that 100% of the people gave Saddam 100% of the vote every time is all.
 
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