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(CBC)   Former B.C. high school teacher, on trial for sleeping with several female students, tries out the "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?" defence   (cbc.ca) divider line 125
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13860 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Oct 2006 at 8:16 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2006-10-26 09:25:38 AM  
Whats up with all these comments saying that its ok to have sex with a teenager??? I really dont understand the logic, not only is it ethically wrong but...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....seriously. And dont give me "they have bodies of a woman/man" crap argument, anatomy/Physiology wise they do not, no matter how well "developed" they appear.

/grossed out
//threw up in my mouth a little after reading some of these posts
 
2006-10-26 09:29:22 AM  
Officer: Some young boy is having sex with Miss Stevenson?
Kyle: Yea.
Officer: Nice.
 
2006-10-26 09:29:57 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: "they have bodies of a woman/man" crap argument, anatomy/Physiology wise they do not, no matter how well "developed" they appear.

At 16 I was walking into bars uncarded. My GF at the time was easily getting in as well.

People mature at different rates.. sorry you cant accept that
 
2006-10-26 09:31:25 AM  
adman12

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over electrons, so I can't tell. so no offence meant, but I will ask this question: Ever had a job denied to you and given to someone whose scolastic credentials were not only not pertinent to the position, but they were two years behind you, AND you had outscored them on the foreign service exam by 20% BECAUSE you were white/male?

I have.
 
2006-10-26 09:32:52 AM  
Hug-a-Beans. Its called sarcasm. Try it you might like it.

/then again you might not...
 
2006-10-26 09:34:52 AM  
csnake24's got a point.

I'm in a co-op program now - over 80% of us are WASPs.

So far, each "selected-for-interview list" has been 2 non-WASPs and 1 WASP.

(0.8*).2*0.2*3 permutations = 0.096 ~= 10% Chance of occurance, all things being equal, not allowing for shrinking population upon selection, etc.

10%? I can deal with that.

When it happens 6 times in a row, it goes down to 1-in-1-million. Now I'm not so happy. And its still happening.

What ever happened to hiring the best and the brightest? (of which there are several in the non-WASPs, don't get me wrong - but the guy with the most interviews has the lowest marks in the class, has failed a good chunk of his courses, and has only just started even using computers).
 
2006-10-26 09:35:09 AM  
2006-10-26 09:31:25 AM voodoohotdog

You were denied the job because you are an arrogant buffoon, not because of your race and gender....
 
2006-10-26 09:37:21 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: Whats up with all these comments saying that its ok to have sex with a teenager??? I really dont understand the logic, not only is it ethically wrong but...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....seriously. And dont give me "they have bodies of a woman/man" crap argument, anatomy/Physiology wise they do not, no matter how well "developed" they appear.

If we're talking 16+, I would say it's wrong only in a social sense. However, social norms are everything to creatures like us.

If we were all a bunch of hunter-gatherers, I wouldn't see such a big deal with kids that age having sex, and having babies. If their social learning and expectations prepared them for late-teenage motherhood, then no foul. However, the complexity of civilized life has long meant that women (and men) were expected to take longer to mature fully, and be prepared for specialized roles in a complex society. That's just the way it is. As a result, most of our teenagers are not really prepared to deal with the responsibilities of parenthood, and are vulnerable to exploitation by older people, who themselves suffer from delayed psychological maturity.

Personally, my head isn't turned by teens. As a guy who rides a crowded city bus full of high school students to work every day, I get to actually hear teenage girls as well as see them. If you want to prevent adult men from lusting after teens, no matter what they look like or how they dress, I highly recommend a Clockwork Orange-type treatment of looking at pictures of them while being forcibly exposed to 20 minutes a day of the mindless drivel many of them tend to spout, non-stop, at maximum volume.
 
2006-10-26 09:39:36 AM  
Hug-a-Beans:
Whats up with all these comments saying that its ok to have sex with a teenager??? I really dont understand the logic, not only is it ethically wrong but...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....seriously. And dont give me "they have bodies of a woman/man" crap argument, anatomy/Physiology wise they do not, no matter how well "developed" they appear.

/grossed out
//threw up in my mouth a little after reading some of these posts


"All these" comments? I don't think anyone here is saying that adult-teen sex is a good idea. Just perhaps that this guy should not be criminally charged for actions that were not a crime when he did them.
 
2006-10-26 09:40:47 AM  
IdBeCrazyIf

People, please do not try and fool yourself into thinking that a 13 year old has not the capacity to understand what an orgasm is, how you go about getting it, and the fall out and repercussions of getting one.

I always try to catch the fallout with a towel or tissue. That stuff gets everywhere.
 
2006-10-26 09:47:03 AM  
voodoohotdog: Sarcasm doesn't travel well over electrons, so I can't tell. so no offence meant


It was sort-of meant as a joke. Quotas bother me, too, especially when the job is an essential one that everyone counts on. I'd rather see affirmative action take place at the educational level (based on socio-economic status, more than ethnicity itself), to give people the qualifications to compete, then rigorously investigate any claims of discrimination, rather than lowering standards for individuals at the hiring end.

At the same time, I am suspicious of blanket statements about how badly off us straight WASP (etc. etc.) men are. I'd rather talk about specific stories like yours, where you can address evidence and details, than piss and moan about our white man's burden.

So... sarcasm with a message, from a guy who distrusts cliched sound bites. Is that reasonable (even if you disagree)?
 
2006-10-26 09:49:14 AM  
IdBeCrazyIf
Mental maturity has nothing to do with the rate at which the body matures physically. Perhaps you should look at an anatomy development chart one of these days? Teenagers are not fully developed. Im sorry YOU cant except that.

/threw up in my mouth a little more
//even more grossed out

No Such Agency
Im glad you feel that most people werent saying that. I suppose I read this wrong "62yo banged a minimum of 13 female high school students? WHOO HOO!/respec"


Leaving this thread...am utterly disqusted at this point.
 
2006-10-26 09:49:29 AM  
Adman12:

They gotta swallow first before they can talk.
 
2006-10-26 09:49:49 AM  
labman:

Marc Maron did a routine that went something like this:
"Of course I want to have sex with teenage girls! What? You think they picked 18 out of a hat? Our founding fathers got together and said 'HEY!! They're having sex with our daughters! We have to make a law! I own land, dammit!"

I have a rule. If she's smart enough to get a fake I.D. and act mature enough to be in a bar, she's fair game. I don't know many 17 y/o's who can do that. In fact I don't know ANY 17 y/o's.

Kosher meal please!
 
2006-10-26 09:50:55 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: Mental maturity has nothing to do with the rate at which the body matures physically. Perhaps you should look at an anatomy development chart one of these days? Teenagers are not fully developed. Im sorry YOU cant except that.

And at 16 I knew full well that the farking might get someone pregnant.

mental maturity, understanding of consequences, and responsible behavoir are not mutually inclusive.
 
2006-10-26 09:57:24 AM  
img430.imageshack.us
 
2006-10-26 10:03:15 AM  
adman12

Spoken as a reasonable man.

Cheers
 
2006-10-26 10:03:43 AM  
Nice.

/no wait
 
2006-10-26 10:04:04 AM  
Tom Ellison, 62, is on trial in provincial court in Vancouver for having sex with 12 female students

YOU GO, MAN!

Oh, wait... not all at once?
 
2006-10-26 10:06:44 AM  
Hug-a-beans needs to take a break. I'd say 95% of 16 year olds know almost everything about sex and especially the risks, It's ALL you hear about growing up. PREGNANT - - - STDS - -- - PREGNANT - - - STDS. Hell, most people learn about this stuff in elementary school.

And whoever is saying girls are not physically mature by 16 needs to explain that one to me. If I remember correctly, most girls end puberty by the time they are 14.
 
2006-10-26 10:07:46 AM  
voodoohotdog: Sarcasm doesn't travel well over electrons, so I can't tell. so no offence meant, but I will ask this question: Ever had a job denied to you and given to someone whose scolastic credentials were not only not pertinent to the position, but they were two years behind you, AND you had outscored them on the foreign service exam by 20% BECAUSE you were white/male?

Have you ever not even been called back for an interview because you had a "Black" Name on your Resume? Ever been racially profiled? Ever been follwed around a store? Ever been Pulled over because you were black?

Dude, I'm a middle class white male. It's awesome. We have all the advantages in life, I promise you. You don't notice it because the times when we have been "slighted" make a more prominent impression in our minds. All the times that our being white have benefitted us, we never even noticed.

I'm just saying, you sound like a whiny biatch.
 
2006-10-26 10:08:43 AM  
IdBeCrazyIf
??????? Sweet God man...Im talking about physical development and why its gross, as an adult, to even consider having sex with someone that is, by definition, not an adult. I am not talking knowing about the birds & the bee's. Please read comment again. You can have alot of information about sex at 15 but it doesnt change the fact that you are 15 and your body is still developing towards the adult stage.
 
2006-10-26 10:11:15 AM  
2006-10-26 10:08:43 AM Hug-a-Beans

I thought you were disgusted and leaving. Are you sure you're not just titillated?
 
2006-10-26 10:11:53 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: Sweet God man...Im talking about physical development and why its gross, as an adult, to even consider having sex with someone that is, by definition, not an adult. I am not talking knowing about the birds & the bee's. Please read comment again. You can have alot of information about sex at 15 but it doesnt change the fact that you are 15 and your body is still developing towards the adult stage.

Only not an adult legally. You're talking about physical maturity. Are you saying that on someone's 18th birthday some sort of magical physiological switch flips that makes then mentally and physically a mature adult because that's what we have codified into law?

What about back in the day when life expectancy was only in the 40s and people got married as teenagers? I guess they were all perverts?

/I thought you were leaving this thread?
 
2006-10-26 10:14:01 AM  
IdBeCrazyIf
Heres an artical about Physcial development at that age.
Physiologic Growth and Development During Adolescence I strongly encourage you to read it or drop by your local college library and pick up a book on anatomy. It may help you understand what Im trying to say

Good luck to you
 
2006-10-26 10:14:10 AM  
Hug-a-Beans:

I pretty much knew what I needed to go out in the world when I was 16. Lotsa people do. Maybe it's because I was tought to be responsible for myself when I was young. The spoiled brats I knew, not so much. Idiots couldn't figure out how to take public transportation, let alone be mature enough to handle a sexual relationship. Absolutes and ultimatums are rfallacies that should be removed from everyone's vocabulary.
 
2006-10-26 10:14:36 AM  
ooops article*
 
2006-10-26 10:16:39 AM  
...the seventies turned it into a commodity. Eveyone got it. From everywhere. All the time.

This is one of those "good old days" remembrances, isn't it? Like a 1950's Happy Days everybody wore a leather jacket and talked like they were from Brooklyn kind of thing?
 
2006-10-26 10:17:11 AM  
Gothmolly: BC? Isn't that a state north of Washington?

Just like Oregon is the Portugal of Idaho, British Columbia is the Canada of the state of Washington.
 
2006-10-26 10:18:07 AM  
It just occurred to me that my last sentence was both an ultimatum and an absolute. How hyppocritical of me.
 
2006-10-26 10:19:45 AM  
The Homer Tax
I mentioned nothing about "magic switches" that is obviously something you are thinking about. I also knew someone would mention the old "back in the day" argument and life expectancy...it was just a matter of time before that argument came into play. Those kinds of practices, still continue, in many areas (i.e India, certain areas of China...Utah)and fall , in many cases, under human rights issues. As far as marriage when life expectancy was "40" what the hell does that have to do with 2006 when the life expectancy is well over 70???
 
2006-10-26 10:22:48 AM  
CaptainBeer
Hun...Im talking about adults having sex with teenagers, which is what the article was talking about. Teenagers having sex with each other and what you did when you were 16, well thats not really relevant and kind of off-topic dont you think?
 
2006-10-26 10:24:09 AM  
Pretty harsh.

Ever been... Yes I have. For being too white. So you try to look more Middle of the Road. Not nearly to the extent of what various people of colour suffer, from the "being followed" to simply having to stand around and constantly answer questions about being from Iran, like the poor guy who owns a clothing store I frequent.

But does it make any of it right?

Try some middle ground before you start hurling derogatory epithets around. You come off as a little more credible.
 
2006-10-26 10:25:48 AM  
Sorry.

As above for The Homer tax
 
2006-10-26 10:28:11 AM  
Sure it's relevant. I lost my virginity to a girl who was in college. I think 20 at the time when I was 16. Wonderful girl, I still see her from time to time. Although she's married now with three kids, so we don't have quite the same relationship. But I digress. My point is, I was pretty adult about that whole thing and it's not like I'm super-man (although she said I was pretty good), so there's got to be more like me.
 
2006-10-26 10:34:11 AM  
jbauer2485
Hug-a-beans needs to take a break. I'd say 95% of 16 year olds know almost everything about sex and especially the risks, It's ALL you hear about growing up. PREGNANT - - - STDS - -- - PREGNANT - - - STDS. Hell, most people learn about this stuff in elementary school.

Interesting how you totally mis-read my posts and put your own interesting twists to it. I never said that teenagers know nothing about sex nor did I suggest that they dont hear about this stuff while growing up. Im talking about something else entriely. But since you seem to think that if they are mentally aware of sex, that makes it ok lets talk about that. Since when is knowing about sex as a teenager make it ok to engage in such with an adult????
 
2006-10-26 10:37:01 AM  
CaptainBeer
So....its OK for you because you felt at 16 that you were mature enough? So in other words sex at that age with any adult is ok as long as you are aware of what sex is???

/I think Im going to hurl
//congrats on your three kids...I mean that sincerely
 
2006-10-26 10:38:18 AM  
Just as there's plenty of teenagers who can handle themselves like adults, there's plenty of adults who act like 2 year-olds. THESE people I DO know, and frankly, they shouldn't be allowed to drive cars, buy alcohol, etc. But we have these arbitrary laws that we've all agreed to follow, so I'll be a good boy now and let you all go on and on and on and on...
 
2006-10-26 10:40:33 AM  
CaptainBeer
Correction....congrats for her on her three kids :D You didnt mention that you had any :D
 
2006-10-26 10:47:09 AM  
Right - no kids for me, thank you very much. But in answer to your question, Yes - it would have been okay for me to go to bed with any number of older women. At least as far as I was concerned. Although, I still prefer my women in or around my own age (give ot take 10 years), so someone 20 years my senior, while acceptable, probably wouldn't happen. Remember, these aren't rules for everyone. Hell, they're not even RULES per se, just what I've seen and experienced while rolling through this great big world.
 
2006-10-26 10:49:03 AM  
No Such Agency: Wanting to "bang teenagers" does NOT make you a "pervert". Of course, actually banging them does make you a criminal, and clearly not very mature mentally.

You're kidding, right? The most common age of consent in the states (it varies state to state) is 16. Nothing criminal there. And since when is consensual sex "mentally immature"?
 
2006-10-26 10:49:08 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: So in other words sex at that age with any adult is ok as long as you are aware of what sex is???

If you know what the results are of a coupling then yes.

Consent is consent.

Hell they give you the ability to operate a 2 ton death machine but you cannot consent to fark?
 
2006-10-26 10:56:24 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: ??????? Sweet God man...Im talking about physical development and why its gross, as an adult, to even consider having sex with someone that is, by definition, not an adult. I am not talking knowing about the birds & the bee's. Please read comment again. You can have alot of information about sex at 15 but it doesnt change the fact that you are 15 and your body is still developing towards the adult stage.

All people are saying here is that teenage girls are mature enough physically to be attractive. Men can be fooled by their appearance, but once they speak, their immaturity is obvious. At that point, most men will understand that it's just not right.
 
2006-10-26 10:58:11 AM  
CaptainBeer
I meant the adult making the decision to agree to sex...not the child ... meaning her the 20 year old or in case of the article, a 30+ year old. So, in other words, if a teenager "knows" what sex it makes it ok for an adult to consent or initiate?

IdBeCrazyIf
Thank you for answering my question. I dont agree with it. But, Im glad you answered it.
 
2006-10-26 10:58:36 AM  
Hug-a-Beans: Whats up with all these comments saying that its ok to have sex with a teenager???

It's ok to have sex with a teenager. A lot of them are hot.
 
2006-10-26 11:02:32 AM  
And since when is consensual sex "mentally immature"?

Ever since wimmins with big mouths started thinking "oh dear lord, theres absolutely NO WAY my precious little angel consented to sex! IT WAS HIS DEVIL'S TONGUE! BURN HIM!!!"
 
2006-10-26 11:02:34 AM  
Tad Askew
Men can be fooled by their appearance, but once they speak, their immaturity is obvious. At that point, most men will understand that it's just not right.

This guy knew. Thats what makes it gross.
 
2006-10-26 11:03:56 AM  
The Homer Tax: Are you saying that on someone's 18th birthday some sort of magical physiological switch

No, hug-a-beans would still consider that WRONG. 18 is a teenager.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong there. Perhaps the term "teenager" is getting thrown around loosely.
 
2006-10-26 11:04:59 AM  
Tad Askew
And I better state this now...even if he didn't "know" most men, at least I hope, have enough understanding/life experiences to "know" a 15 year old (or such) when they see/talk to one as you stated :D Of course the actual "being fooled" argument, is an entirely different issue/debate for another day :D
 
2006-10-26 11:05:50 AM  
Who ARE these teachers who think this kind of behavior is even remotely appropriate? The function of a teacher is to relay information to the students. To be a catalyst. I have been a teacher for 6 years, and I remember one faculty meeting in which a new teacher said, "I'm just trying to be friends with them." By the end of the year, he'd been caught making out in the park with one of the students.

If you want friends, go to a mixer. Don't become a teacher. Seriously. Use some common sense. If people in your own generation (or at least legal) don't want you, that's a pretty good indication that something's up. Check into it. Quit preying on teenagers.
 
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